Seanad Éireann díospóireacht -
Thursday, 12 Nov 1987

Vol. 117 No. 13

Customs and Excise (Miscellaneous Provisions) (No. 2) Bill, 1987: Motion to Recommit.

Mr. B. Ryan

I move:

That the Customs and Excise (Miscellaneous Provisions) (No. 2) Bill, 1987, be recommitted in respect of amendments Nos. 1 to 13, inclusive.

Precisely for the reasons outlined by you I would like to propose that amendments Nos. 1 to 13, inclusive be recommitted. This is a normal part of the procedures of the House and there are a variety of reasons for doing it, one being the disappointing failure of the Minister to produce any amendments in the light of the commitments that were both given and widely reported on Committee Stage. Therefore, the depth and extent of debate that is required on these amendments goes well beyond the normal procedures of Report Stage and I propose that these amendments be recommitted so that we can take them in the more intensive form of consideration that is permitted on Committee Stage.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

It is a little used procedure, Standing Order 91. First, is the suggestion or proposal by Senator Ryan opposed?

Mr. Fallon

Yes, it is. I formally oppose the proposal.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

The proposer may make an explanatory statement.

Mr. Ferris

May I speak on the proposal that is before us now about the recommittal or on the point of order raised by Senator Fallon?

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

I will allow Senator Ryan to speak on the reasons for the recommital.

Mr. B. Ryan

I do not want to go so far as to make accusations but it is quite clear to me and to other Members on this side of the House who participated in what we considered was an extremely constructive debate on Committee Stage on some of the issues that emerged on this Bill and in which we thought commitments were given. I know the procedures of this House fairly well and I know the sort of language that is used. When a Minister undertakes to examine something again it is a reasonable expectation that he will come up with some proposals, not necessarily the proposals that we would want but some proposals. When you get to a stage where there are no proposals at all from the Minister on issues which the Members raised and on which the Minister made conciliatory noises under considerable pressure and then nothing happens, Members of this House are entitled to feel aggrieved. Since the issues which are raised in these amendments are issues that deserve far more detailed scrutiny than would be available under the limited procedures of Report Stage it is, therefore, urgently necessary that we have the freedom to go through these things since apparently the Minister is not prepared to facilitate us by introducing his own amendments. The only procedure available to do that is to recommit these amendments so that we can debate them in the proper format amendments of this complexity deserve. Therefore, I move under Standing Order 91 that amendments Nos. 1 to 13, inclusive, be recommitted.

Mr. J. O'Toole

I would like to speak in support of the proposal by Senator Ryan. I am not sure if the word "misled" is an appropriate one which should be used in parliamentary debate but, as reported in the Official Report of 22 October, the Minister gave an assurance that he would try to find the middle ground, that he would definitely reconsider the matter, seek the most expert advice available, talk to both the Minister for Health and the Minister for Justice and come back with an answer. The Minister said he would not say whether this would necessitate an amendment but he was prepared to reconsider and do his utmost to find the balance in what the Senators believed was necessary to have the law fully implemented.

A lot of work went into this Bill on all sides of the House. There was no difference of opinion between Senators. I recognise that Members of Fianna Fáil feel a need to support the Minister's procedure but I want to put on record that I have also consulted with the interested parties, including those mentioned, and I am demanding an answer from the Minister as to why he has not come back with a response to the points which were legitimately raised.

We are talking about more lives here per year than were lost in Enniskillen over the weekend. I am not prepared as a legislator to walk away from responsibility and I will certainly point up and emphasise the irresponsibility of people who bring in legislation which allows criminals to walk free. I appeal to my Fianna Fáil colleagues. This is not point scoring, this is not making political capital of something. This is a case where we are not being responsible to the people we are here to represent. We must take on board the proposal made by Senator Ryan and I heartily support it.

Mr. Fallon

I am sure the Minister will reply but Ministers generally when they come to this House, including the present Minister, make no firm commitment. I am sure he examined, as he agreed to examine, all the points that were raised and I am sure he will reply suitably himself. Ministers tend to say they will examine matters which they do and, if it is found feasible, they will act; if it is not workable then they will not act. Having gone through the various amendments that have been submitted, I feel that many of them are unnecessary, many of them are not workable and there is existing law to cover many of them.

To come back to the point at issue the Minister never gave commitments. He undertook to examine the points raised and obviously having made further investigations he found that he could not facilitate the House. I am certain that if he replies that will be his explanation.

Mr. Ferris rose.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

Under Standing Orders the Chair is now required to put the question. As a matter of fact the Chair has been a little liberal.

The Standing Order is quite clear so I want to put the question.

Mr. Ferris

I was not allowed to speak at all, Senator Fallon gave his opinion of the amendments. It is a most unusual performance from anybody on any side of the House to question a Member's right to put amendments and then to give his opinion even before the Minister replies. I hope Senator Fallon is not insinuating that we do not have rights on Report Stage to try to improve the Bill if we can.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

It is time to implement the Standing Orders of the House, no more and no less and I am obliged to put the question.

Mrs. Bulbulia

On a point of order, since it is such an unusual procedure and one which I support in the context of——

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

Not unusual; little used.

Mrs. Bulbulia

It is a little used procedure but it is available to Members when they feel they have a legitimate grievance. In his response to the very finely and detailed arguments put up here the Minister certainly indicated to my mind, and I am not naive, that he would examine the points closely.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

That is not a point of order.

Mrs. Bulbulia

My point is, would you be kind enough to read out this little used Standing Order before you put the motion?

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

Every Member has been supplied with a copy of Standing Orders. I am now putting the question that the Bill be recommitted in respect of amendments Nos. 1 to 13, inclusive.

Question put: "That the Bill be recommitted in respect of amendments Nos. 1 to 13, inclusive."

The Seanad divided: Tá 12; Níl 19.

Tá

• Bulbulia, Katharine.
• Daly, Jack.
• Doyle, Joe.
• Ferris, Michael.
• Harte, John.
• Hogan, Philip.
• Kelleher, Peter.
• McCormack, Padraic.
• Manning, Maurice.
• O'Shea, Brian.
• O'Toole, Joe.
• Ryan, Brendan.

Níl

• Eogan, George.
• Fallon, Sean.
• Farrell, Willie.
• Fitzgerald, Tom.
• Fitzsimons, Jack.
• Haughey, Seán F.
• Kiely, Dan.
• Lanigan, Mick.
• McEllistrim, Tom.
• McGowan, Patrick.
• McKenna, Tony.
• Mooney, Paschal.
• Mullooly, Brian.
• Mulroy, Jimmy.
• O'Callaghan, Vivian.
• O'Connor, Nicholas.
• O'Toole, Martin J.
• Ryan, William.
• Wallace, Mary.

Tellers: Tá, Senators B. Ryan and O'Toole; Níl, Senators W. Ryan and S. Haughey.

Question declared lost.