Seanad Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 20 Jan 1988

Vol. 118 No. 4

Order of Business.

Mr. Lanigan

Before I announce the Order of Business, I think it would be appropriate if this House passed a vote of sympathy to the family of the late Seán MacBride. Seán MacBride was a statesman of international standard. His work for the underprivileged, not alone here but abroad, has been acknowledged through the world. Ar dheis Dé go raibh a anam dílis.

On the Order of Business, it is intended to take items Nos. 1, 2 and 3 today. It is further proposed that, notwithstanding anything in Standing Orders, statements shall be made at 5 p.m. today on the proposed test at the nuclear power station at Trawsfynydd in north Wales and that the following arrangements shall apply: 1. No statement other than the Minister's shall exceed 10 minutes. 2. These statements shall be brought to a conclusion not later than 6.30 p.m. today.

Mr. Manning

On the Order of Business, may I join with the Leader of the House on behalf of the Fine Gael group in the vote of sympathy to the family of the late Seán MacBride. He was a man whose life was the light of this century. Few people can have had such a varied political career as he had. Perhaps by conventional Irish standards his political career was not a great success. He was a Member of the Oireachtas for ten years. The party he founded did not make a lasting impact. Nonetheless, at almost every stage when he entered Irish politics he made a lasting mark; in his work in the courts in the thirties and in his work in the first inter-Party Government. Most of all he will be remembered for his work in the international forum, his work for humanitarian, libertarian causes right around the world. I will conclude on Seán MacBride by saying I believe the measure of the man and his character is summed up in a story told to me by the late Todd Andrews. He told me that when Seán MacBride won the Nobel Peace Prize the cheque which arrived with the prize was a very considerable one. Seán MacBride merely looked at the cheque, signed his name on the back of it and sent the money to Amnesty International. That was an indication of the depth of sincerity of Seán MacBride.

On the Order of Business, I want to thank the Leader of the House for the speedy way in which he has arranged that statements can be made on this matter of great concern across the Irish Sea. I hope that the strong voice of this House will have some impact in changing that bad decision.

Professor Murphy

I wish to be associated with the tribute to the late Seán MacBride. I am glad now I shared many platforms with him on such issues as the anti-nuclear movement worldwide, our own neutrality and our sovereignty. His energetic commitment to these causes was remarkable. His age and status gave such imspiration to young people. However, the absurd attempts at instant canonisation over the weekend did no service to his memory. In Ireland we seem to lose all sense of proportion when a public man dies. We take the injunction de mortuis nil nisi bonum to hypocritical limits in public.

Mr. Norris

Hear, hear.

Professor Murphy

It would be better if we spoke less scandalously in private about the living. In Seán MacBride's cause it has to be recorded, regrettably, that his contribution to the cause of peace at home, to the national debate on the North, was in inverse proportion to his service to peace worldwide. It is a pity that his thinking in the area of this tragic problem remained dangerously simplistic to the end.

Descending to prosaic levels, on the Order of Business, may I inquire of the Leader of the House when it is proposed to proceed with the Debate in the Seanad on the Constitution? I understand there was general agreement in principle that this is the appropriate Chamber to debate this matter. We are now in 1988 and the Progressive Democrats have circulated their draft Constitution. Even though it proposes to abolish this House — indeed because it proposes to abolish it — it seems that this is a renewed time of relevance to debate the Constitution. It will not go away and this is the place where it should be debated as quickly as possible.

Mr. Ferris

I want to join with the Leader of the House in extending our sympathy to the family of the late Seán MacBride. On behalf of the Labour Party, I want to say that we mourned his passing and shared many platforms with him, particularly in connection with Amnesty International and the Anti-Apartheid Movement and many other such international causes in the area of peace.

Many words have been written and spoken about the man over the past number of days. We feel incapable of expressing our sadness at his passing but it is worthy of his memory to record the immense input he had in all sections of public life, whether as a politician, as a barrister, or as an international peace emissary. We were fortunate to be honoured by his presence as part of the Tipperary Festival of Peace which is a convention which is trying to promote peace worldwide and, indeed, peace in our own land. Seán MacBride at that time, two or three years ago, accepted immediately the opportunity to attend that small forum in the whole process of peace. His contribution in Tipperary at that time will not be forgotten. It is appropriate that this House, as part of the Oireachtas, would remember his passing.

I want to thank the Leader of the House for giving us the opportunity to discuss the proposals of another sovereign State in connection with a power plant across our waters, which proposals could endanger all our lives, particularly those living on the east coast. It is appropriate that this House should have an opportunity to express its view.

Mr. Norris

I would like to associate myself strongly with the remarks of my colleague, Senator John A. Murphy, despite the fact that I would not wish any disrespect to the sensitivities or feelings of the family of Dr. MacBride at this time of mourning. Bereavement is a common human experience and one must always be sensitive to the feelings of the family — Dr. MacBride was a highly controversial character. In Irish public life it is foolish that in this House almost every single day we are asked to stand in memory of people who are sometimes from a highly coloured and controversial background. If this practice is not to be brought into disrepute——

(Interruptions.)

An Cathaoirleach

Senator Norris, we ar not having a debate on people.

Mr. Norris

I am quite happy to express my condolences to the family in any matter of human bereavement but I think we are correctly advised that this kind of tribute can be devalued by being over-used.

On the Order of Business, I would like to ask the Leader of the House, Senator Lanigan, when it is proposed to take item No. 33 which concerns an amendment of the Local Government (Planning and Development) Act. The reason I ask for this to be taken as a matter of urgency is that it will, I think, receive support from members of the Government party, including Senator Haughey who has attempted to place on the Adjournment today the matter of the Red Rock development. This problem would be cured if the suggestions contained in item No. 33, which came originally from the Taoiseach, Deputy Haughey, were implemented and the expenditure of £800,000 as a result of a decisiom in this matter would have been obviated, a sum of money which would have paid for the retention of——

An Cathaoirleach

Senator Norris, you are making a speech. Let us stick to the Order of Business. You can make that speech at the appropriate time.

Mr. Norris

I am trying to indicate why it should be a major priority. We could have saved——

An Cathaoirleach

Could you draw the line at where you will stop?

Mr. Norris

If I may have your indulgence, it would have paid for the retention of the Metropolitan Streets Commission, Bord Scannán na hÉireann and the Dublin Transport Authority if the Government party had taken their own leader's suggestion in support of this legislative proposal.

Mr. Robb

I would briefly like to mention a matter on the Order of Business for today which will be extended into next week. Thanks to the letter of the Independent Member, Senator Joe O'Toole, to The Irish Times, I learned that there was a calling of the faithful to the Seanad this afternoon. Having got over that initial shock, I then arrived here today to find that this matter, the one affecting Northern Ireland, would be debated tomorrow, which is Thursday, a day on which I have an operating list. I thought then that I would be able to make my contribution next week. Unfortunately, I gather that Budget Day is Wednesday of next week and that this debate is now scheduled for Thursday. It does require quite a lot of reorganisation in the hospital in which I work. Before Senator John A. Murphy went to America I knew that he was a very tolerant person. However since he came back I have cause to suspect that he may have had some conversion because I understand from this afternoon when the request was made to him that the day of the debate be changed, that there will be no joy whatsoever about that matter. I would like clarification as to when the debate will take place. If it takes place next Thursday on the matter affecting Northern Ireland, that is, that Seanad Éireann calls on the Government to clarify its policy on Northern Irelan, I would very much like to speak to it.

Mrs. Bulbulia

As a fellow sponsor of the Irish Anti-Apartheid Movement along with the late Seán MacBride, I would like to pay tribute to his memory in so far as he touched the African Continent and the issues in South Africa and, indeed, in South West Africa. He was a strong supporter of Namibia and he was appointed UN Commissioner for the former West German colony of South West Africa which is currently illegally held by South Africa. He had an empathy and an ability to get on with Africans and understood the problems of that Continent and of that benighted region of South Africa. The world and this country in particular owe him an enormous debt of gratitude. I mourn his passing and I sympathise with his relatives. I am unhappy at the tone of some of the remarks that were made here this afternoon. No doubt many of them were made in good faith. There is a time for analysis, there is a time for assessment, there is a time for an adjudication on the life's work of a person and there is a time for criticism but now we mourn the person, we pay tribute to the individual and we extend our condolences to the bereaved family——

Professor Murphy

He was a public man.

Mrs. Bulbulia

——who was a public man and who will be adjudicated upon in time when there is a pause for reflection, time for analysis and time for a coming together of minds on the life's work of this man who served this country and the causes he represented to the best of his ability. I did not always agree with the late Seán MacBride. I was amazed at his stands on the two recent referenda but I hope I have the ability to separate the thoughts and concerns of an individual on issues from the person himself and that is what is required of us this afternoon.

I support the call for a debate on the Constitution. It was the Leader of the Fine Gael group, Senator Manning, who first mooted this idea at the time of the anniversary of the Constitution. We have persistently called for a debate on this issue and it is timely in view of another party's launching of a review of the Constitution and specific proposals. It is important that we in this House should look at the Constitution and in particular at our role as outlined in that Constitution and now under threat from another party, from a sort of populous bandwagon, from members of the press who have in many instances an ill-informed and unthinking attitude towards this House which, in my years of experience in it, has served very well indeed the legislation which it processes.

Mr. B. Ryan

Ní fheadar cad tá ar siúl ag daoine anseo. Níor chuala mé a leithéid riamh faoi dhuine a cailleadh le déanaí agus na rudaí a dúradh faoi Sheán MacBride. Bhí an-aithne agam air. Cuid mhaith rudaí a dúirt sé níor aontaigh mé leo in aon chor, go mór mhór mar a luaigh an Seanadóir Bulbulia, an dá reifreann a bhí againn le déanaí. Nevertheless, I do have to accept the fact that Seán MacBride had a capacity to inspire young people and that is not my testimony. The best testimony I have to Seán MacBride's record is from the young people who spent nearly two years outside Dunnes Stores in Henry Street——

Mrs. Bulbulia

Hear, hear.

Mr. B. Ryan

——and what they had to say to me about Seán MacBride had nothing to do with the areas of his record where I and many other peole would not have agreed with him but his capacity to get through to people who were in the middle of a struggle on some issue is a far better testimony to the man's convictions than any amount of detached analysis. I had the great privilege on 10 December last, United Nations Human Rights Day, of sharing a platform with him, probably one of the last public platforms he ever spoke on in this country before his death. He spoke on two issues: human rights and homelessness.

Seán MacBride over recent years showed a willingness to take part in issues and campaigns that won no great popularity for him in this country. Like others of us here, he opposed the Criminal Justice Bill which was popular with the public when it was going through the Oireachtas and he got no popularity for doing so. When he espoused Amnesty and the anti-apartheid movement they were not as fashionable as they are today. They were minority issues and they were seen to be way out liberal issues and it was a source of great inspiration to the many involved in those campaigns and, similarly, in the Campaign for Nuclear Disarmament, that somebody of his stature was prepared to identify with issues that were singularly unpopular.

That is why he deserves the tributes which have been paid to him, not because he was perfect. There are no perfect human beings. There are no perfect human beings amongst the independent Senators, the Fine Gael Senators, the Labour Senators or indeed the Fianna Fáil Senators for that matter. Therefore, it is suggested that because a person was less than perfect or that we disagreed with him, he is unworthy of tribute. Whether or not I agreed with him a man with the record of Seán MacBride deserves the tributes which have been paid to him. I want to be associated fully and without qualification with the tributes paid to him here today.

Mr. Ross

I would also like to associate myself with Senator Lanigan's proposal of sympathy on the death of Seán MacBride. Some of the contributions and some of the interruptions have been distinctly unhelpful. We are debasing the Seanad, as Senator Norris rightly said, if we continually propose votes of sympathy to people in this House for no apparent reason. If we do propose a vote of sympathy it is only right that it should not pass on the nod and we should not canonise these people, as Senator Murphy said, in the Seanad on the day. It is only right that constructive criticism of someone like Seán MacBride should be uttered here on the day but not in a malicious way or in a nasty way.

An Cathaoirleach

We are only passing a vote of sympathy to the family and we should not really have a debate on it.

Mr. Ross

I understand exactly what we are doing. What was said by the proposer of this motion and by Senator Bulbulia was very material about the life of Seán MacBride. They were entitled to say that and you did not interrupt or pull them up for doing so. Those on this side of the House should be entitled to question some of the ideals of Seán MacBride while this motion is going through and I do so now. While he was associated with many worthy causes it should be noted that he was a controversial figure and was also associated with many very doubtful causes.

Mr. M. O'Toole

I also want to be associated with the vote of sympathy to the family of Seán MacBride and to endorse what has been said by Senator Bulbulia and the Leader of the House. I too offer my sympathy to his family. He was his own man and a great international figure. We always seem to knock our own. He was a great international figure and I respected him. His father was born very close to where I live and he also had a great record. The stock was good and I see nothing controversial about him. I do not think this issue should have arisen here today and I humbly offer my sympathy to his family and relatives.

Mr. J. O'Toole

It is very important to put on the record of the House that no speaker stood up today to dissociate himself from the tributes which have been paid. Each speaker, in his or her own way, picked out aspects of Seán MacBride's life which they referred to in associating themselves with the vote of sympathy. That some Senators picked out aspects of Seán MacBride's life which perhaps were unpopular and unacceptable to some people shows the honesty of the speakers.

However, there is a particular point that we need to address, that is, that first we should decide whose passing and in what circumstances should be marked with a vote of sympathy in this House and secondly we should decide the appropriate way in which it should be done. Should it simply be a vote of sympathy to the family or should it allow people to go into a discussion on their lives? It is unfair for Senators to suggest that speakers were not associating themselves with the vote of sympathy and nobody inferred or said that Seán MacBride was unworthy of tribute. That word was not used by any of the speakers. People used their own way of saying it and I think that should be clearly seen in the record.

I should like to raise again the question of a debate on the Constitution. It seems extraordinary that one of the Houses of the Oireachtas, the Seanad, which is infinitely suitable for a debate on the Constitution — a matter which has been touched on time and again on our Order of Business — has not had this matter put before us for a debate. I want it put before us in a way that will not cause difficulty for the Government or the Fianna Fáil Party, if that happens to be their problem. We all have contributions to make on this matter and I do not think any Government can be responsible for the problems in the Constitution. Every Government can learn from a debate on the Constitution. We have a clear duty to debate the Constitution and I urge the Leader of the House to give us an opportunity to do that.

Mr. R. Kiely

I should like to be associated with the expression of sympathy to the relatives of the late Seán MacBride. In my view we should extend sympathy to his relatives because the late Seán MacBride introduced a number of Bills in this House when he was Minister for External Affairs.

An Cathaoirleach

I understand that, according to Standing Orders, a vote of sympathy should be initiated by the Leader of the House. I should like to be associated with the expression of sympathy to the relatives of Seán MacBride. The greatest tribute that could be paid to his memory was the huge attendance at the removal of his remains and his funeral. I agree with Senator Bulbulia that this week is the time to sympathise with his family. We can judge him at a later time.

Members rose in their places.

Mr. Kennedy

It is because of my special interest in the needs of the handicapped — I am aware that the Cathaoirleach and other Senators have an interest in that area — that I should like the warmest congratulations of Seanad Éireann, of the voluntary organisations and associations for the handicapped, to be extended to Christopher Nolan, the 22-year-old Dublin author, who has been paralysed from birth, on winning the prestigious Whitbread Book Award for 1987 worth £18,750 for his autobiographical book "Under the Eye of the Clock". Christopher summed up his achievement in his own brave words when he said: "Tonight, crippled man is taking his place on the world literary stage". The judges described his book as a unique, moving and powerful account of a young, gifted author crippled since birth. In my belief, Christopher serves as an inspiration, as a symbol of hope for the handicapped people of the world. We should extend our congratulations to him, to his father, Joseph, his mother, Bernadette, and to his family. I am aware of the Cathaoirleach's special interest in this area and that many Senators have a deep concern about the needs of the handicapped and I am sure all would like to join with me in extending the congratulations of the House to Christopher Nolan on his magnificent achievement.

Mr. Norris

I would like very much to be associated with what my colleague, Senator Kennedy, has said. It is appropriate that the warmest congratulations should be sent from the House to Christopher Nolan. I was very moved this morning at his acceptance speech, read by his mother, and I should like to make one comment on it. He referred in it to crippled man taking his place but in my view it is far broader than that because Christopher Nolan will come to be regarded as somebody who is capable of being recognised as an artist in his own right. He has managed to make the tag of his disablement completely irrelevant. I should like most warmly and forcibly to be associated with this tribute to him.

Mr. Lanigan

I should like to deal with the questions raised on the Order of Business. In reply to Senators who were pleased that we were able to introduce a motion on the Trawsfynydd nuclear pland very speedily I should like to say that when controversial issues that affect the nation arise I will, in most cases, accommodate Senators who wish to refer to them. I should like to tell Senator Norris who raised a question about item No. 33 on the Order Paper that it is up to the Independent Members to decide if that item should be given priority over the other item listed by Independent Members for debate this week.

Mr. J. O'Toole

Thank you.

Mr. Norris

It is a proposal from the Senator's leader, Deputy Haughey.

Mr. Lanigan

With regard to the question of having a debate about the Constitution I should like to tell the House that we have not decided not to have a debate on the Constitution. It was impossible to have such a debate in the last session because, as Members will recall, we had to deal with a lot of Government business. In fact, we dealt with more Government business in that session than ever before. I should like to tell the House that a debate on the Constitution will take place as soon as possible and I suggest that the Whips meet to arrange the form of debate. I must point out that it will not take precedence over Government business. Government business will have priority and that will be borne in mind when we are arranging for a debate on the Constitution.

Senator Robb suggested that the Order of Business should be changed to take his motion. I should like to tell him that a debate on the topic he is concerned about is scheduled to commence at 3.30 p.m. tomorrow and will conclude on Thursday week. The debate on the Appropriation Act will adjourn at 3.30 p.m. tomorrow. It is intended that the House will sit at 12 noon on Thursday of next week to conclude the debate of the Appropriation Act to be followed by the motion in the names of the Independent Senators.

Mr. Robb

On a point of information, is the Leader of the House in a position to indicate when the debate will start next week?

Mr. Lanigan

It is impossible at this stage to say when it will begin next week but it may be possible for the Independent Senators to agree to start at 6.30 p.m. on Thursday. That should give the Senator time to organise his business. We will have two Government Bills before the House next week but I cannot give the Senator any further information.

Mr. B. Ryan

I attempted to raise the question of the nuclear power station in Wales under Standing Order 29 and, arising out of the decision of the House. I should like to withdraw that request to the Cathaoirleach.

Order of Business agreed to.