Seanad Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 1 Jun 1988

Vol. 119 No. 17

Order of Business.

Mr. Lanigan

It is proposed to take items Nos. 1, 2 and 3 today, to take item No. 1 from 1.30 p.m. to 4 o'clock, item No. 2 from 4 o'clock to 6.30 p.m., item No. 3 from 6.30 p.m. to 8 o'clock and to return to item No. 2 from 8 o'clock to 11 o'clock.

On the Order of Business, I want to explain to the House that last week it was intimated that the Companies (No. 2) Bill would be coming before the House today. It was intimated to us by the appropriate Minister that this would be so. Unfortunately, the Government amendments were not ready for today. We gave an indication to the House that the Companies (No. 2) Bill would not be brought back to the House before Members were circulated with Government amendments in plenty of time for Members to have a chance to look at them and respond to them. I apologise to the House if Members were expecting the Companies (No. 2) Bill to be ordered for today. The reason for its postponement was out of our hands.

Mr. Manning

Obviously, I regret that the Companies (No. 2) Bill cannot be on the Order Paper today as was indicated last week, but I do accept that the reasons for this lie outside the control of the Leader of the House. I would like to put on record the efforts made by the Government Whip to ensure that we got this piece of legislation here. I hope the Whips can organise to take this Bill in a structured, organised way and that we will get through it by the end of this session.

Also on the Order of Business, in view of the continued onslaught on the office of the Ombudsman I would like to ask for time to be made available today or tomorrow for a limited debate on the subject matter of item No. 64 on the Order Paper.

Mr. J. O'Toole

I would like to ask the Leader of the House if he would make some time available to discuss the quite extraordinary decision of the State-owned Irish Life to sell out their shares in Irish Distillers at a time when, particularly all the great financial institutions, including Irish Life, are talking to us about the need to invest in this country and the need for us to take cuts in our wages, to be patriotic——

An Cathaoirleach

Does that arise on the Order of Business?

Mr. J. O'Toole

It does. I am asking the Leader of the House to talk to us at a time when the State is asking us to buy Irish and to invest in Ireland, when a leading company would move us away from it——

An Cathaoirleach

Would you tell me where does it apply? Where is it on this Order Paper?

Mr. J. O'Toole

I am asking the Leader of the House to make time available for a discussion of this decision as an urgent matter. I would also like to refer to the Companies (No. 2) Bill. I indicated last week that I would insist each week that this be taken and I said that I would push it to a vote each week. I accept the commitment given by the Leader of the House and by the Government Whip that it will be taken next week. I appreciate and, therefore, accept that. I would also say that if this does not happen next week I will insist on having a vote on a daily basis. We have been through the reasons for taking it and the need for legislation. Perhaps people are not aware that there are disreputable people out there who are at this moment selling companies which people are already directors of——

An Cathaoirleach

Point made.

Mr. J. O'Toole

There are people who are selling companies which people are already directors of, companies who, therefore will, circumvent——

An Cathaoirleach

Senator O'Toole, you are out of order. Sit down.

Mr. J. O'Toole

I should be allowed make my point. I am making the case for taking this particular business. It will be difficult to get these people sorted out.

An Cathaoirleach

You have made your point.

Mr. Ferris

On the Order of Business, the Government Whip mentioned the late sitting on the Agriculture (Research, Training and Advice) Bill. Could I be informed of the next process as well? I take it there will be no rushing through of this legislation. I know there is a certain amount of urgency about it, but I hope this House will have the fullest opportunity to discuss this Bill on all Stages. I hope it is not intended to rush it through in total this week — Report Stage as well — because I would be totally against that. We want plenty of time to put down amendments, which I had hoped would have been done in the other House, but was not.

Referring to Senator Manning's comment about Item No. 64, that has now become a matter of public importance. The sooner this House discusses not alone the report, but the onslaught made by the Taoiseach on one of the highest offices——

An Cathaoirleach

If Senator O'Toole is not allowed to make a speech, you cannot make one either.

Mr. Ferris

This House was part of the legislative process that set up the office of the Ombudsman. We will not have the Taoiseach, or anybody else, denigrating that man's responsibility to this House. We want an opportunity to discuss it because that involved in the setting up of this office.

Mr. Loughrey

I wish to support Senator Manning and, indeed, Senator Ferris, who also referred to Item No. 64. It seems to me that on the Order of Business Senators may ask that certain items on the Order Paper be taken rather than certain other items on the Order Paper, or that Senators may ask that items not on the Order Paper be put on the Order Paper. I consider that Senator O'Toole, with all his faults, might have been in order in that regard. With regard to Item No. 64——

An Cathaoirleach

A motion can be put down.

Mr. Loughrey

——there is a motion down to discuss it. The last court of appeal for most of our citizens who have gone down through all the other avenues, including approaching public representatives, is the Ombudsman.

An Cathaoirleach

I was on the Floor of this House when that went through. I am well aware of the role of the Ombudsman.

Mr. Loughrey

Could you advise the Taoiseach of the role of the Ombudsman and ensure that he does not——

An Cathaoirleach

That is not my role here.

Mr. Cregan

May I congratulate the Minister, in deference to many people here? Last Wednesday on the Adjournment we had a debate on the regulations for a free port area in Cork. I understand the Minister signed the order this morning.

An Cathaoirleach

There are ways of doing things but some of you have to be here a while to learn.

Mr. Cregan

I would like to take the opportunity to thank the Minister involved, Deputy Daly.

Mr. Norris

I would like to join my voice to the voices of other Senators who have requested that the Leader of the House should consider taking Item No. 64 today. The reason, succinctly, is that an extraordinary attack was made yesterday in the other House — I think very ill-advisedly — by the Taoiseach. It seems to me that it would be appropriate for us in this House to demonstrate the relevance of the Seanad and to take Item No. 64 in order to show that we can respond immediately as part of a vigorous political life in this country. A Chathaoirligh, in deference to your rulings on other Senators, I will limit my inclination to indulge in a speech on this matter. I would greatly welcome, however, the opportunity——

An Cathaoirleach

You cannot make a speech.

Mr. Norris

I understand that only too well but I would, however, look to the opportunity to make a speech at the appropriate time, if the Leader of the House is prepared to make an opportunity available for this very important debate, the urgency of which has already been stressed by other Senators.

Mr. Connor

Strictly on the Order of Business, I want to re-echo what Senator Ferris said about the seemingly undue haste on this Agriculture (Research, Training and Advice) Bill. This Bill was introduced in the Dáil on 18 February. It was in and out of the other House over all the intervening months. It has, I think, finished all its Stages there. If the sitting tonight is to rush Second Stage today, and then get on to Committee Stage tomorrow or even next week, that is totally undue haste for a piece of legislation that is so important and so wide-ranging. I would like an assurance from the Leader of the House that that is not the case.

Mr. B. Ryan

How could I resist the opportunity? Let me say very briefly that I am in sympathy with everything that has been said about Item No. 64. I urgently request the Leader of the House to allow a debate on the annual report of the Ombudsman. A Chathaoirligh, I would like to thank you also for allowing me to raise the other matter on the Adjournment. May I invite those of my colleagues who are from the Southern Health Board area to attend? May I ask the Leader of the House, for my guidance if for nobody else's, at what time it is proposed the House will adjourn tonight, as there seems to be some uncertainty about it?

Mr. Lanigan

I indicated at the beginning of the Order of Business that we would sit until 11 p.m. Most of the questions have arisen in regard to Item No. 64 and the urgency with which that particular item should be taken. I think the comments of the Taoiseach were quite relevant and necessary.

Mr. Norris

Shame, shame.

Senators

Shame, shame.

Mr. Lanigan

There is a sense of hypocrisy in this House. Item No. 3 on the Order Paper today was put down in the names of the Independent Senators. They realised over the past number of weeks that the Ombudsman question was being asked about here in the Seanad Chamber by various people. They could have taken the opportunity to bring forward the debate on the Ombudsman but, instead of that, they decided to bring forward a motion on Foreign Affairs, and the setting up of a parliamentary committee which, even if passed by this House, would have no relevance, because this House has not got the power to set up this committee. The people who are crying crocodile tears for the Ombudsman could very well have brought forward their motion and they could have had it taken today. As a matter of fact, over the past number of weeks they could have raised this matter under Standing Order 29 if they felt so enraged by what was going on. Time will be given to discuss Item No. 64 within the next couple of weeks.

Senator Ferris asked about the question of the late sitting tonight and felt that this might be used to rush through Item No. 2. There is absolutely no question of rushing through Item No. 2, but there is a very heavy load of legislation coming through this House during the next few weeks. Because of that, it is necessary that we sit late. We will be sitting late most nights from now on. We will be sitting earlier on Wednesdays. We will be sitting three days a week from the week after next. We will have extended sittings on each of those days. There is no question of all Stages of that Bill going through the House today or tomorrow.

With regard to the Companies (No. 2) Bill, I did not say that it will be going through this House next week, but it will be here as soon as we finish the Insurance Bill. That will also give the Government an opportunity to have the amendments circulated so that everybody will have a good idea of what amendments are coming in.

On the question of Irish Life, also raised by Senator O'Toole, that is not a matter for this House. Those are the only items of relevance that were raised on the Order of Business.

Mr. J. O'Toole

Did I understand the Leader of the House to say that he was not certain that the Companies (No. 2) Bill would be dealt with next week? I would like clarification. My understanding was that it was coming in next week.

Mr. Manning

In agreeing to accommodate the Government side today on the Companies (No. 2) Bill, it was my understanding that this Bill would be coming in next week and we would be given a definite commitment on that. I am take aback by the throwaway line of the Leader of the House, almost as an afterthought, that it will not be coming in next week. I would like urgent clarification.

An Cathaoirleach

When the Cathaoirleach calls on the Leader of the House to reply and conclude that is supposed to be the conclusion. Sometimes there is confusion about what a word means. I suppose everybody knows what "conclusion" means.

Mr. Norris

Particularly a "book-sologist".

An Cathaoirleach

Not on the west coast, Deo Gratias.

Mr. Norris

It is now part of the political vocabulary of Ireland, regrettable as that may be. I welcome the expansion of the English language at every turn. I would like to remark that I find the response of the Leader of the House to my query in regard to Item No. 64 quite inadequate. He continually refers to the fact that Private Members' time is available. I would like for his benefit to point out that the situation has now altered radically. That is precisely the reason why so many Senators wish this matter to be taken. Item No. 64 is simple: "That Seanad Éireann takes note of the Annual Report of the Ombudsman, 1987." The reason many people were interested in this, and very anxious to have it discussed, is that this is now superseded by what many people would consider an attack on the office of the Ombudsman.

An Cathaoirleach

Sit down, Senator Norris.

Mr. Norris

The Leader of the House has a habit of always referring to the fact that we have Private Members' time. I would like to make this point which is very relevant and I am sure that when you hear it you will agree with me.

An Cathaoirleach

I have facilitated you to ask a question. Would you sit down now?

Mr. Norris

If I could conclude on this point, which is that the reply is inadequate because people, like yourself, who have the highest regard for this House take great trouble at times preparing a deliberate motion which should not be superseded.

An Cathaoirleach

My role here is to clear the Order of Business. I have no control over replies from the Leader of the House. Is the Order of Business agreed?

Mr. J. O'Toole

We sought clarification on an issue about taking the Companies (No. 2) Bill next week. I think we are entitled to do that. I gave a commitment here on the basis that I would not be pushing for votes this week on a certain condition. I want to know whether or not both sides of the agreement are being kept. I want to know precisely what is the position of the Companies (No. 2) Bill. I want it in black and white terms. Is it or is it not being taken next week?

Mr. Lanigan

I made no agreement with anybody about the Companies (No. 2) Bill. What I said was that we will take Items Nos. 1, 2, and 3 and that will be the Order of Business for today.

Order of Business agreed to.