A supplementary Order Paper has been distributed. It is intended to take the supplementary Order Paper as Item No. a1. We will take the Report Stage of the Criminal Justice (Forensic Evidence) Bill to a conclusion today. It is intended to order the resumption of Second Stage of the Trustee Savings Banks Bill. At 6.30 p.m. we will resume the debate on the NESC Report No. 88 to conclude at 8 o'clock and we will take the matter on the adjournment at 8 o'clock. If there are a number of speakers offering on the NESC debate we could possibly have that at 8.30 p.m. but I feel we should conclude at 8 o'clock, with the Minister to come in at 7.45 p.m. Tomorrow we will take the motion on the Middle East.
Order of Business.
Item No. a1 today deals with the setting up of committees. Is it intended that there will be debate with that or will it be taken without a short debate? Secondly, in view of the worsening famine situation in Ethiopia, would the Leader of the House be prepared to consider, perhaps next week, devoting an hour to a discussion of Ireland's overseas development aid programme and ways in which we could focus attention on how this country would help the plight of those in famine-stricken Ethiopia? Also today, could the Leader of the House give some indication whether the debate on Northern Ireland may take place before the end of this session?
Could I have the view of the Leader of the House on Item No. 7 — the Interpretation Amendment (No. 2) Bill? As the House knows, this was originally a Fine Gael Bill which appeared on the Order Paper in the last session. It has since been appropriated by one of the Independents but there is no great problem about that because it is a Bill which we would like to see on the Statute Book. In view of the remarks of the Taoiseach yesterday in the other House that he would like to see the import of this Bill put into legislation could this perhaps be taken at a fairly early stage? It is a gesture rather than a serious Bill and it is something which would, I am sure, have all-party support in the House.
I think the supplementary Order Paper, Item No. a1, is to be welcomed, but it would be important that there would be a debate on it and we would certainly not be interested in nodding it through. We have very serious views on committees and I think it is an opportunity to air them. Will the Leader of the House consider at some stage during the day allowing statements to be made for a set period on the question of overseas development aid? It is a serious problem. It is a topical issue which is being discussed at the moment and I believe we should seek to respond to it. I would prefer that be done today rather than next week or another time.
I ask for the indulgence of the House. The situation here is that we, as Labour Senators, are not able to do our job as we would wish because of the fact that we have no facilities. We are going around this House begging, borrowing and cheating to get the facility of making a phone call or to sit at somebody else's desk to write a letter. The situation is that since last June — almost six months ago when I was dispossessed on the day the Dáil reassembled — I have not got the facilities to enable me to do my job. Since the August Seanad elections three Senators and I have been walking around from room to room looking for facilities.
I am raising the matter in the Seanad out of sheer frustration. I have been to my own parliamentary party and I have got explanations from them. I have been to my own Whip and he went to great detail to explain the problem. He has made five or six — or maybe seven or eight — trips back and forward to the Government Whip without any apparent success. I raised the matter in the Committee on Procedures and Privileges. I went back again to my own parliamentary party. I spoke to the Leader of the House. I spoke to the Seanad Government Whip. I spoke to the Dáil Government Whip who was supposed to have made some effort to accommodate me. But the information I have from my own Dáil Whip is that he has not got any further with it.
I am looking for the support of this House. Apparently, nothing will be done until such time as everybody rows in behind me. The fact of the matter is if there was anybody else in this House who was not being facilitated in the proper ways they would disrupt the Order of Business every week. That is not my style. I am doing it once. I am asking for the indulgence and support of the House.
I also ask that the matter be brought to the notice of the Taoiseach. I was going to take that step but he has given the Whips a job to do. Obviously he cannot get bogged down on that sort of thing but at least he should know about it. The view of this House should be conveyed to him that such a situation will not be tolerated and that people who are elected to this House are entitled to facilities. Some of us have not enjoyed them for the past six months, and for four months in other cases.
I know I speak with the support of all the members of my party. I would like to completely support what Senator Jack Harte has just said. It shows a total disregard for the Upper House that any Member should be treated in such a manner. It is almost incredible to think that four Senators elected to this House are sitting around, some since June and others more recently, for months waiting for a desk and a chair and somewhere to put their books and get on with their work. Anything we can do to help remedy the situation we will be delighted to do. The Labour Senators have our 100 per cent support in resolving this appalling situation.
I would like to support Senator Harte in his request for appropriate offices in which to conduct his work. I will not be more contentious than that. I would like to refer to what the leader of the Fine Gael group, Senator Manning, said with regard to the Interpretation Bill and to say that I think it is important that it be placed in context. I am sure he would not wish it to appear that there was a conflict in the fact that I support what he said in regard to it. That Bill arose from the operations of the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Women's Rights.
It is not on the Order of Business.
If I could just finish the sentence——
It is about as much as I will let you do.
It was presented by Deputy Nuala Fennell, but I consulted with her before presenting it here myself. I would just like the House to be aware of that fact.
I would like the Leader of the House to confirm that there will be the opportunity for debate on the supplementary Order Paper, and that it will be possible to amend that Order Paper. I certainly wish to offer an amendment to it because I wish to have an Oireachtas joint committee on foreign affairs established. We will be placing that amendment on the Order Paper if it is technically possible to do so. I would like also, if it is possible, to have an indication from the Leader of the House as to when he proposes having the debate he promised on Northern Ireland. Finally, I would like to have an explanation of what happened to the debate on the NESC report last week and why it appears on this week's Order Paper, instead of having been taken, as I understood very clearly, it would be taken last week. I was very surprised watching the monitor to discover last Thursday that it simply vanished into thin air at lunch time when there was an entire afternoon during which it could have been taken.
We understand your question.
I want to support my colleague, Senator Harte, in his statement about the disgraceful manner in which the four Labour Party Senators have been treated — three of us for the last three and a half months and the other Senator for five months. We do not have any kind of permanent accommodation at present. We want to ask the House to assist us in ensuring, before we come back here again, that the matter is resolved. Secondly, in relation to Northern Ireland, I would like to ask also what has happened to that debate? When is it intended that it will take place? Such a debate has already taken place in the Dáil.
In relation to the Estimates, I asked before whether we have any further indication as to when that debate will take place here. Finally, do I understand from the Leader of the House that the only item to be discussed on Thursday is the Middle East? Is the Derelict Sites Bill going to be dealt with this week?
To get back to Item No. a1, there can be a limited debate on it and I would suggest that it be left to the leaders of the particular groups in the House to pass comment on it. As to the extention of committees, that is not on the Order Paper. It is up to individual Senators to put on the Order Paper their request to have further committees set up. We are dealing with a specific item on the Order Paper. It has nothing to do with other committees. We are trying to set up the committees of the Houses which have been established, not extension of committees of the House. Extension into other areas is not a matter for discussion on this Order Paper today. I am afraid I will not allow discussion on the extension because we are dealing with a specific item here.
On the question of a debate on Ethiopia, there are a number of requests for special debates here.
A Senator
We cannot hear.
This is the first time that people have interrupted me on the Order of Business on whether I can be heard or not. I suggested last week that there may be problems with the speakers or the monitors in this House. If there are problems they are not of my making.
On the Ethiopian question, certainly that is tied in with the request by Senator O'Toole on overseas development aid. I do not see that there is a great difficulty in having a limited debate on those two items.
We will have a limited debate on Northern Ireland and that can take place next Thursday, if that is agreeable to the House. There is no particular problem on that. The Whips are to meet tomorrow morning at 12 o'clock and questions can be raised then as to whether there will be a debate on Ethiopia. The Northern Ireland debate, of a limited nature, should take place next week.
As far as the Estimates are concerned, we will have a debate on them before Christmas. Again, we cannot have a full debate on the Estimates; it will have to be limited to a specific length of time. That would mean that we either limit the number of speakers or the length of time for each speaker. That should be a matter for discussion among the Whips tomorrow morning.
Unfortunately I have absolutely nothing to do with the facilities afforded to Members. I took on board the queries raised by Senator Harte. I got numerous answers which would suggest that perhaps some of the fault is outside the control of the officers of the House. It may have something to do with the organisation within the Labour Party. That may be, but I am not too sure. There may be a question mark there, but the question has been raised and we will follow it right up to the highest level. It is disgraceful that people do not have proper facilities. I am afraid that the Labour Party are not the only people who have not got proper facilities in the House.
There is a distinction between "none" and "some".
I accept what the Senator says.
We have no facilities whatsoever.
As far as the Interpretation Bill is concerned, we will deal with it in due course. I accept what has been said. It was my fault that the NESC debate did not continue last week. I ordered it, but I expected the other Committee Stage to take longer. There was a technical reason then why we could not come back to that debate. It is important that we finish the NESC debate this evening, because there will be a further report from NESC in the very near future. We should conclude the NESC debate this evening.
I would like to propose an amendment to the Order of Business. I would like to propose that item No. 19, in view of the Leader's remarks——
I must remind the Senator that he must move his amendment during the debate. He did not do that and I am ruling him out of order.
Might I inquire——
I will not allow further discussion on any matter after the Leader of the House has replied. I have ruled on the position and there will be no change.
Order of Business agreed to.