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Seanad Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 27 Feb 1991

Vol. 127 No. 14

Programme for Economic and Social Progress: Motion (Resumed).

Debate resumed on the following motion:
That Seanad Éireann approves theProgramme for Economic and Social Progress.
—(Senator Fallon.)

I wish to welcome the Minister of State, Deputy Calleary to the Seanad. As Government spokesperson on Labour I am grateful for the opportunity to say a few words on the Programme for Economic and Social Progress. I was rather puzzled to hear Senator O'Toole say he was not supporting this Government programme. If I understood him correctly, he said he was supporting the agreement. One must recognise that the programme is a result of initiation of the plan by the Government. In fairness, the Taoiseach, the Ministers who have spoken and Members on this side of the House have paid due tribute to the social partners who were involved in drawing up this important programme. Nobody tried to diminish the role played by the various social partners in coming to this very important agreement.

The agreement we are discussing is an extension of the very successful Programme for National Recovery introduced by the Government in 1987 at a time when this country was on its knees to say the least and when many experts were wondering if anything could be done to get it out of the economic mess it was in at that time. This programme and indeed the last one was built on a consensus approach by the social partners and is very positive proof of the enlightened approach at present to economic and social development. It points to an understanding by all sides that if we want to make the best possible use of our resources in these very difficult times, a consensus is the only way forward.

The last programme was very successful. Its greatest achievement was a huge reduction in our inflation rate. That is a very important point because a low rate of inflation will keep costs and prices at a minimum and create the environment for economic growth which, in the final analysis, is the only way to tackle the scourge of unemployment that was mentioned by a number of Members in this debate.

As the Taoiseach said in the other House and the Minister for Labour, Deputy Ahern, said earlier, the work done by the Government under the last Programme for Economic Recovery has been recognised and talked about at international level. The EC Commission in its annual economic report hailed the achievements of the Government as spectacular. In other international fora there was reference to the continuing Irish economic miracle. By any standards those words are a fair tribute to the performance, work and achievements made under the last programme and which will continue under the new Programme for Economic and Social Progress. They are all the more laudable in view of the fact that not many years ago the self same international commentators were decrying the fact that Ireland was at the bottom rung of the ladder in terms of economic development, with all of the ills that went with it. Within as very short space of time this economic miracle has transformed this country. The credit is due, in the first instance, to the Government for putting this plan in place and to all the social partners for the excellent contributions all those organisations made to ensure that the plan was such a success.

There is no question that everyone wants the best possible for his or her own area. We want the best education, the best and greatest possible job opportunities, a better standard of living, a better health system, higher social welfare benefits and better all round care and benefits for the disadvantaged and deprived. In order to achieve all those aims we must have the wherewithal. There are very definite options as to where we get that type of money if we are to achieve all the aims towards which everyone strives. On the one hand we could loosen the strings and borrow huge amounts of money to make the extra finance available needed for the type of projects that people require. They would have short term, beneficial effects. But all those large amounts of borrowings would have to be paid back and the huge debt and the interest that would accrue would have to be serviced. On the other hand, we could increase taxation and finance the aims in that way; but we all know that the raising of personal taxation and other types is a disincentive to employment, to investment, and effectively would slow down all economic development. It would prevent the very thing that we would set about to achieve.

As the first two options would be totally unsuitable and would not, I think, in the long term solve any problems we would have, the only alternative is a co-ordinated and commonsense approach as envisaged in the former Programme for National Recovery and in this new Programme for Economic and Social Progress. The programme is committed to a reduction in taxation over the period of the programme and this is an essential ingredient in the promotion of economic development. It prepares the ground for moderate pay awards over the period and all concerned know exactly where they are going. As the Minister said, we have to set a goal, we have to decide where we are going, and then we have to decide how we get there. Hopefully, we will look at the proper routes along the way to ensue that we are on the right path and eventually we will reach our destination.

I listened to Opposition speakers who were knocking this programme for a variety of different reasons. All of their reasons were that this may not happen, and that may not happen and the other thing may not happen. They were the same people who, some time ago, were decrying the Government for not having a plan. You cannot have it both ways. You either agree to a plan or you do not agree to a plan, and in this day and age no Government would survive without having proper planning in place. Indeed, we are the envy of many countries in Europe that we have this co-ordinated consensus plan over a period of time so that people readily understand exactly what the position is and so that they can plan for themselves.

It is very important for investment and for business in general, whether it is industry, agri-business, or whatever, that you are able to plan in a definite way and that you are not afraid if you do something today the whole thing is going to be turned upside down tomorrow because of some decision that was taken on the spur of the moment. The fact that we are in that position and the fact that there are no major pay awards — this is a very important ingredient — with the exception of the emphasis on giving maximum support to the lower paid sector of our society, all this allows industry in general to plan because they know that inflation rates will be kept to the minimum. It is a marvellous achievement, as the Minister said, that we now have the lowest inflation rate in Europe. That is a tremendous tribute when not very long ago we were down at the very bottom of the scale in Europe in relation to our inflation rate.

The Minister mentioned the importance of education to the country. I wish to concur wholeheartedly with him in this. Our educational system must provide the opportunity for every person to develop his or her potential to the full and that applies both in the area of formal education and also in the area of continuing education. We must aim for the highest standards in education and educational facilities. It is only with a highly educated people that we can achieve the lifestyle to which everyone would aspire. I think, with all the faults it has and all the difficulties it has experienced over the past number of years, we can take great credit from the fact that even at this stage we have a very successful educational system. I think that is recognised both in Europe and further afield, where you have the experts and commentators mentioning the very highly educated people who are sent out from this country to jobs abroad. You have the situation where highly successful and important corporations and companies come to this country annually to take up quite a number of young people from third level institutions because they recognise that the Irish student and the Irish graduate is one of the best trained and best educated in the world. Those people do not make too many mistakes. It is because they heard that we have such a highly educated workforce and group of young people that those people come to us.

That is not to say that there is still a lot that can be done. As the Minister said, you have to give the opportunity to everyone to continue and improve themselves. It is important to add that we have a very good educational system. We must build on that system. That is why the programme contains a wide-ranging series of measures to improve our educational system, which includes measures to improve the pupil-teacher ratio and provide extra remedial teachers, extra vice-principals and career guidance posts in post-primary schools, a six year post-primary cycle, in-service training, an extra 8,800 third level places and an upgrading and replacement of substandard buildings by 1997. People might say that those are very ambitious targets, but I think those targets can be achieved, and it is through the commitment in this programme that they will be achieved. I think the trade unions involved in negotiating the programme were quite amenable to this and felt that those targets could be met. That is why they have given us such wholehearted support.

As the Minister stated, there is a Green Paper due out this summer, followed by a White Paper in 1992, and finally an Education Bill. I think, it reflects this type of consensus approach to development, particularly in the area of education, where every person and group and organisation involved in the educational field will have the opportunity to put their views forward. There will be lengthy discussions involved and everyone will get an opportunity to have a say. In the final outcome, we will have an Education Act that will revolutionise the educational system in this country and that will be all for the better. It is appropriate that one should compliment the Minister for Education on taking that initiative because it is a major step in the field of education and nothing but good can come from that.

I think everyone would acknowledge that we need a proper health service. Here I have to refer again to the type of dual standard that is operating. You hear people in this House and in the other House and in national fora criticising the Government for spending too much money on the programme and then, on the other hand, at local level I heard them on a number of occasions criticising the Government for not spending enough. They are looking for more money all the time. You have the same individuals at local level having a go at the Government for not supplying enough money for certain projects and then at national level having a go at the Government for spending too much money. You cannot have it both ways. You either accept the fact that there is need for economic restraint or you do not. You have to be definite in your viewpoint. You cannot be just on one side today and in a different fora, because it is appropriate or particularly opportune, to be on another side tomorrow.

The important point is that we have to get value for money and I think that is what the Minister for Health is trying to do at the moment. He is placing the whole emphasis at the moment on community care. I see the development of community care as a very important step in the whole area of health services. I do not think there is any old person or any person who is infirm who would not prefer to be at home. That is what we have to do. It is too simple to build institutions and put into them old people, people who feel they are no longer of use to society, and get someone to care for them in institutions. We owe them more than that.

People who gave their lives in the service of this country are entitled to a little bit more than that. We have the duty and responsibility to try to ensure that those people live out their final days in their own locality, among their own friends, among the people they grew up with, rather than be thrown into institutions. In many cases it has been proved that in certain institutions 25 per cent of people have no visitors. It has got to the stage where even relations and friends have forgotten about them. That is a terrible thing to contemplate in this day and age. The whole area of community care needs tremendous development and I am delighted the Minister is committed to improving that area.

Another area the programme identified as being one of the most important targets in relation to job creation and the whole generation of income is the tourist industry. It is a major plank of economic development. The potential we have for tourism development is enormous. At a local level, the River Shannon, the finest waterway in Europe, has huge potential. The Shannon Development Company have done great work in the development of the Lough Derg area and the number of organisations who have been involved in developing the area is absolutely colossal. With the help of this programme and the goodwill of the Minister — he was with us a couple of weeks ago lauding the Lough Derg Programme — the potential for tourist development in the area is enormous. With the Minister's goodwill and the backing of the Government, it will reach out beyond the banks of the Shannon and all areas from the mid-west outwards will benefit from tourism development in that area.

I do not think the fact that the Programme for Social and Economic Progress was negotiated initially outside of this House and of the Dáil diminishes the role of the Oireachtas. People must recognise that it is the perogative of the Government to initiate programmes. The Government put a programme in place, discuss it and negotiate it with all interested parties. Some people have made the point that we debate programme in the House, then we bring it into the political arena with all the accompanying problems and the idealism of the plan is lost in the political argument. It is the Government's duty and responsibility to initiate a programme with all the social partners. Let it not be forgotten that, when the programme is put in place, the moneys have to be allocated for the different areas. Therefore, all the programmes must come before each House of the Oireachtas in order to pass Estimates to make moneys available to initiate those programmes. It is not true to say that the role of the Oireachtas is diminished because, in order to implement the programmes and finance them, the proposals must be brought before the Houses of the Oireachtas. The Oireachtas than decides, in its wisdom or otherwise, whether those programmes are suitable.

I want to compliment all the organisations involved in formulating this programme. It is necessary at this time. The Programme for National Recovery proved how successful such a plan can be. I have no doubt that this programme will continue the excellent progress that was made over the past three to four years and no doubt we will look back with pride at the end of this programme on the huge financial and other developments that have taken place.

I would like to refer to the journey which the Minister, Deputy Ahern wished to take us on today when he said: "We are setting out. We want to know where we were going in advance. We want to decide on the route we take. We assess our progress by checking that we follow the route and, finally, we arrive at our destination". Well, I certainly would not be happy accompanying the Minister on that journey because I feel at the end of the day, looking at this and taking all the markers, that what I would find at my destination — pleasurable as the journey may be — is emigration and unemployment. The journey must be a realistic one. It cannot be a flight of fancy or a Peter Pan style of journey. I am rooted in realism and what I have to say will be specific. It can be the microcosm of the programme as I see it in the midwest area and other parts of the country. It is essential that we look and examine this document and how it can be applied to work on the ground.

In relation to Senator McKenna, I certainly do not agree with him that we should be happy that our role is not diminished. I believe it is diminished. First, we are talking tonight on the Programme for Economic and Social Progress and it seem irrelevant now because the programme has been approved and voted on. As we are talking in terminology now which relates to allies, I noticed an interesting alliance, or coalition, when this was voted on. The new alliance in Dáil Éireann is Fianna Fáil, the Progressive Democrats and the Labour Party, who voted for the Programme for Economic and Social Progress, and the Labour Party particularly were happy enough with the idea of setting up an Oireachtas Economic and Social Affairs Committee to compliment the work of the social partners. I certainly would not go along that road. Committees are all very well, but I do not see the committee system as being appropriate when we, particularly the Opposition parties, should have been in the negotiations.

I do not accept that the programme can be negotiated outside the Oireachtas without input from the Opposition parties. It shows a disregard for the elected Members. It reminds me very much of the role of local government at the moment where there is considerable frustration, which will be reaching its zenith by June. Local councillors realise they have absolutely no power, that they are just rubber-stamping decisions made in the Department of the Environment. They have no discretion about spending. Almost every pound coming from central funding has already been answered for when it reaches the elected members. It is enough to see that at local authority level, but I certainly do not want the Oireachtas to take up the idea that the decisions are made beyond their control.

I would like to refer to the green document, and I would say it is green in relation to tackling the major problems of unemployment and emigration. In the Dáil the Taoiseach spoke about the formidable task ahead to create new employment and he mentioned the necessity to create 20,000 new jobs annually. It rang a bell in my mind, was relating back to the Fianna Fáil magic manifesto of 1977, where 20,000 jobs were also mentioned. Minister O'Malley and Minister Brennan were around in 1977 and all would agree now that we are suffering still the problems of that manifesto as regards debt and so on.

Over the past few weeks all I can see in the mid-west, which had been a burgeoning, blossoming region, is that slowly and surely it is becoming devastated by unemployment. Factories are closing, closures are threatened and factory workers are on a three day week. That is the real world. Minister Ahern on his journey should, on my invitation, come to the mid-west to see what has been happening slowly and surely over the past few months — over a longer period, but particularly over the last few months. There is 80 per cent unemployment in places like Southhill and Moyross. They are the Tallaghts of the mid-west. They are the city areas. The industrial estate companies are on tenterhooks, wondering whether they will be around in the next few weeks. Outside the area there are towns and villages — this has already been mentioned in the An Post debate — being devastated by unemployment and emigration.

It is of interest — and I want to be very specific and constructive here — that in a recent study in FÁS's newly published Labour Market Review, compiled in the planning and research departments, it is revealed that between 1981 and 1985 the probability of those aged 15 emigrating by the age of 19 increased three and a half times. They are the specifics we have to address. We cannot discard those figures; they are real figures. Six per cent of 67,568 people aged 15 in 1981 had emigrated by the time this group reached the age of 19. I am talking about tender years between 15 and 19. Some 18.2 per cent were on the dole in Ireland; 46.6 per cent had found jobs without emigrating — and I am glad they found those jobs — and although 31,503 had jobs by the time they were 19 years only another 1,090 members had found jobs in Ireland by the time the group was aged 23 years. These are frightening, staggering figures. In 1985, there were 71,300 Irish 15-year olds. By 1990, 21 per cent of this group had emigrated; 11.64 per cent were unemployed in Ireland and only 32 per cent had found jobs in this country. These facts are frightening, disturbing and very saddening. I said I would deal with reality; these are the facts published in a new publication researched through FÁS.

What is happening? Abroad, the outlets for Irish Labour are drying up. We know that. There is recession in the United Kingdom, in the United States and we know of the number of emigrants who returned for Christmas and never went back either to Europe or the United States. They are now at home for good and add to the numbers. Changes in eastern Europe over the past two years mean that Irish workers face increased competition for skilled and unskilled jobs in Europe, again resulting in rising unemployment. The level of unemployment since the end of October, when it was 16.8 per cent, rose in January 1991 to 18.5 per cent. These figures are not in the Green Paper. They are not to be seen for publication, but they are there and they are the reality.

Worse is to come. I am sorry, but it has to be a pessimistic message. More and more people are coming on the labour force. We have 670,000 between the ages of ten and 19 who will be looking for jobs over the next ten years, and this figure represents about half of all those currently at work. Looking back at the ICTU agenda, when they proposed a ten year strategy for development, reform and growth, that strategy was agreed to by the Government; and it is interesting that that ten year span will be coinciding with the ten years when you will have that number I referred to coming on the job market. The present unemployment of 241,000 is a shocking figure. Looking at the green booklet, only four pages are devoted to unemployment and training out of a 90 page document. That is a figure that should not be accepted.

If we turn to figures of another kind, the current budget borrowing is approximately £350 million, which accounts for 1.5 per cent of GNP; and there is a commitment in the programme to eliminating £350 million worth of borrowing by 1993. However, the programme does not say how this can be done. We can read all we like, we can read headings, but the specifics must be met and we have to face them. Tax and expenditure commitments will add up to £550 million borrowing in 1993. We have to ask ourselves, where will the cuts come from? Where are the tax increases to be made to eliminate the £350 million, this year's borrowing, and to pay for the £550 million extra borrowing required by this programme, which amounts to approximately £900 million? I do not see in the programme whether that £900 million will be found in cuts or tax increases. It is implied, but I would like to have specifics from the Minister on that. I see no vision. In reference again to Minister Ahern's journey, there is no light at the end of the tunnel.

In the short time remaining to me I will briefly refer to specific areas where the Minister could have shown vision. We will take the social employment scheme. We had looked for specific analogies to be eliminated as regards Christmas bonuses and a debate took place here in the House to which many Members contributed. There are anomalies in that scheme, which is a good one, which can be eliminated. The people who opt for the social employment scheme, coming from long term unemployment, seek work. They wish to work. They find there is about £7 in the difference for a man who wishes to take up social employment and what he would get if he were on the dole. Quite honestly, the temptation is there, if you cannot get on the social employment scheme, to say "Well, look, there is only £7 in the difference because of the anomalies." I ask that a training scheme in FÁS should be set up to advise on and monitor the introduction of a training element in the social employment scheme. It would help to make those social employment scheme workers more employable at the end of their 12 months.

I reiterate they acquire skills during their year but they are very basic skills and the people who opt for them are people who have an appetite for work. From what I know from people who are on the social employment scheme in the Limerick area, they are thrown on the scrap-heap of unemployment at the end of their 12 months. Because they have had the opportunity to work for that one year it is exceptionally frustrating for them to find that after their year they have no further employment. As Senator O'Toole did today, I look for a second year for those people and perhaps they would be more employable at the end of that second year. I would like the Minister to conduct a survey, if he has not already done so, on social employment workers to show how many ex-social employment workers have achieved employment after their spell on SES, a very valuable scheme.

I turn briefly to the area of tourism, which I will link in with farming and education. I will speak specifically on integrated rural development. There is a tiny paragraph, perhaps half a page, in the programme dealing with the prospects for rural development and the Minister's proposal to have a national programme for integrated rural development drawing on the expertise of the pilot programmes. In my own area, Slievefelim, the funding is so meagre that the co-ordinator — he was supposed to go in October but held on for another couple of months because some money was found — is uncertain as to the length of time he will be employed. The budget has been cut for the programme in my own area. The potential in rural areas is enormous. It is absolutely necessary at present for people in rural areas to be able to take up employment as an alternative to traditional agricultural jobs. I find nothing in the integrated development programme in relation to a firm strategy, a direction or the vision I spoke of earlier.

I would like to refer to the overflying situation as regards Shannon. You may ask what this has to do with the Programme for Economic and Social Progress. It has a lot to do with it for the simple reason that tourism and alternative farming enterprises in the mid-west and to the west and south west of the country is intrinsically linked, because if you reduce the number of flights coming into the region you reduce the number of tourists. What we are failing to do — and this was noted already with regard to the debate on An Post — is to take the social and economic aspects together. It is fine to have economic policies, but you must always link the social with them and what I am doing here is linking tourism and off-farming activities.

I will take an example, because I want to be constructive. Take a project like a European theme park in that region on the lines of the Bunratty Folk Park. Ireland is the true agricultural model. It represents all types of agriculture — mixed farming, cereals etc. It is a prototype for agriculture throughout Europe. Seeing that Shannon is the gateway to Ireland for Americans, if we had a European theme park with an agricultural theme, with the area of Lough Gur, with this full sense of integration that I talked about, you would have your theme, the history of agriculture through the ages and the projects related to the whole area. You are talking there in terms of an integrated rural development linking transport, tourism, agriculture and the alternative activities we are looking for in the area to ensure that rural villages are not being devastated. That is something constructive. In relation to that, I was very disappointed with the budget proposal in regard to the BES because of the effect on tourism, hotels and self-catering areas.

That is untrue. It is not gone.

An Leas-Cathaoirleach

Senator Jackman, without interruption, please.

Specifically in relation to the mid-west and I know Senator Honan will be very interested in what I have to say——

The Minister for Finance cleared that in Ennis on Saturday night.

I am sorry we did not have the facilities to hear what the Minister for Finance had to say in Ennis. I hope he will be able to help in the area I am talking about. The rented Irish cottage arrangement is a specific scheme where if, on the sale of those cottages, they become viable in the context of refurbishing and updating standards for 1992, they had hoped for input from the business expansion scheme so that when they were sold they would be sold as a going concern and kept in the context of tourism to satisfy the criteria of 1992. I said I would deal with specifics and that is a specific. I would like the Minister for Finance to come to the mid-west and say to us "of course the rent-an-Irish cottage scheme will be exempt from the problem of funding for hotels because I see you in a different category." We would be absolutely delighted and it would ensure that we could bring visitors from the United States visitors and Europe to the mid-west and they would go on to Ennis, not necessarily just Limerick but the whole of the mid-west.

The targets for tourism I find extraordinarily positive but will they be reached? The figures given are four million tourists, 25,000 jobs between 1988 and 1993. I will certainly keep them in my mind. In the next couple of months I will be counting the tourists coming through Shannon Airport to check out the figures.

They have been coming for the past two years.

There is also the matter of port roads and accessibility for tourism, business people and everybody else. There is absolutely nothing in the peripheral plan to allow people from Limerick rapid transit by way of access roads to the ports because Cork, not Foynes, is earmarked. In our area we must have a proper roads infrastructue for tourism and business purposes. I do not see why all roads should lead to the east but not to the west.

As regards education the trade unions and their representatives were the architects of the welcome improvements in the programme and I welcome that. I welcome the improved PTR but I find it extraordinary in relation to the commitment to a study on the future in-service needs of teachers that a study by the Department will now be initiated. Since 1968, when we had free education, we have been screaming for in-service, courses. I have been teaching since 1968 and in-service seems to be the buzz word now. I might as well tell the House if we are talking of long term planning that in-service was being done voluntary in private secondary schools and other schools as well and also through teacher centres. It fascinates me how it is suddenly the buzz word when we needed it way back in 1968. The only reason it was tackled in this programme was because teachers were driven demented trying to work on shoe-string budgets to ensure that they were equipped to teach as they should in 1991. They need to be social workers, actresses and actors, substitute parents. They are imparters of knowledge, they are initiatiors, facilitators, etc.

As regards free education £10 million comes to the Department of Education every year given by parents through examination fees and voluntary contributions. My last word relates to the Education Act. The Green Paper to be issued in the summer and I look forward to the White Paper and the Education Act. Very regularly on the Order of Business I have asked the Leader of the House a question regarding the Seanad voting rights. I would like this to be taken on board because we seem to have no relevance in this House in regard to Seanad voting rights. I have raised the matter many times but I got nowhere. I hope this will be something that will be addressed in the Education Act.

I am disappointed I have not had an opportunity to touch on health but again I refer to the journey I invited the Minister to take. If anybody cares to go on my journey, there will be realism at the end of it and constructive commments, not Peter Pan material, a sort of fly-off-into-the-universe approach such as we have heard on this programme today.

Senator Jackman would be quite safe going on any journey where the Minister for Labour is heading the team. He has been an excellent negotiator. I cannot understand why it is wrong for the Government, the Progressive Democrats and Labour to vote together on a programme that will send this nation on the right path to progress. It is just that Fine Gael are being wrong-footed on this. Their Leader, with the greatest respect to Senator Jackman, has to create a high profile for himself in the Dáil and he decided to vote against one of the most positive plans that has been put in place in this nation and for our people in recent times. So if Senator Jackman is taking a poor view of Labour voting with us that is her tough luck.

I welcome the Programme for Economic and Social Progress. It has recently been negotiated with the Government and it covers a three-year period in 1991 to 1993. It deals with health, social welfare, justice, environment and all the other areas. If we have got our act together and if it is annoying some people, perhaps it is, surprise at the commonsense that is now in place and our determination, together with the trade unions and the farming organisations and all the people, to put petty things aside, and decide to create an atmosphere where together we can create jobs for the people we are elected to look after.

I would like tonight to pay a special tribute to the Minister for Labour for his commitment and his dedication and indeed for all who took part in the talks with him, the trade unions, Government, employers, farmers. It is only together that this nation can survive. We have the most comprehensive agreement that was ever put in place. We are facing challenges not just here at home but internationally. We need that programme for progress to move forward. The greatly improved performance of the Irish economy since 1987 has won international recognition. In many ways the real significance of our success in achieving a consensus approach to the economic and social policies is much more fully appreciated abroad than here at home.

Hear, hear.

I am now in trouble when I hear Senator Ross say "hear, hear". We have to face the challenging times of the nineties, we have to sustain the recovery and give a clear signal to the international community of our determination to continue to make progress in a disciplined manner. The most significant innovation of this programme compared to the previous one is the comprehensive programme of improvement in the main public services. It is a measure of the success of the Programme for National Recovery and of the growth which it generated that has made it possible to now put this major plan in place and to create improvements in the social policy area.

This programme has ambitious targets, including the target for increasing employment. Farming must be looked after. When people in the towns think they are special, we should never forget that we are a farming nation. I hope Mr. MacSharry realises that as well as anybody else who wants to hear it. I must pay tribute to the Minister for Social Welfare for his extraordinary role in that Department since his appointment. Over the period of the programme, the Government are committed to improving the level of payments to the tune of £400 million in 1990 terms. The priority rates recommended by the Commission for Social Welfare will be achieved this year in the case of all long term unemployed. In his nice quiet way, the Minister comes on television, but down on the ground I would say he is one of our best Ministers. He is getting a fair bit of money but I do not mind as long as he spends it the right way. He is certainly doing that. I hope he is told that I said this, because I am sure he does not think I give him any credit.

(Interruptions.)

The Minister for Labour, with whom Senator Jackman did not want to walk down any road, has put in place regulations for 21,000 part-time workers. There are many women in that category. Surely he has to be applauded for his commitment there.

We in Ireland are unique in regard to the extend of voluntary work which is carried out. Last Sunday morning, in Ennis, we had nine Masses for the mentally handicapped of Clare and we had a huge collection. The Minister for Health and his former Minister of State who has now gone to Justice, and the Department of Health have done enormous work for the mentally handicapped. I am in a first hand position to know that.

The Minister for Health has increased the allocation for mentally handicapped well ahead of inflation although I know that there are still gaps in the service. The Government provided £2 million last year in the budget and there is a further £1 million this year. I know we need more but it is like all other Departments, every section needs more money. I am sure the Minister will try to give it to the mentally handicapped when it is available in the Department.

When the Programme for National Recovery was negotiated in 1987 the country was in a major crisis. There was virtually no growth in the economy, unemployment was increasing rapidly, the national debt was expected to deteriorate further, living standards were declining with the increase in the tax burden, and major social troubles were getting worse. Against this background, the programme was put in place and despite all the shortcomings it has worked well. I understand that there are many problems left and all we can do is try to tackle them. We have to find ways and means of ensuring that the current recovery, with low inflation and lower interest rates is maintained, and that the major issues such as unemployment, tax reform and the restructuring of our health services, are tackled.

Now that the economy is in a healthy condition we need a new approach to take account of those changing circumstances, which draws lessons not only from the success of the past but also from its shortcomings. This approach should recognise that our fundamental structural problems were there before the programme and we should go on as a nation to lay down a long term strategy for development. I understand that before the talks between the social partners and the Government, the Irish Congress of Trade Unions, the employers and farming organisations asked that there be a long term strategy for the development of the country over the next decade, a decade for development, reform and growth.

I would like to pay a tribute to Peter Cassells and to all the people in the trade unions who were at the negotiating table. At one point, towards the end of the negotiations Mr. Cassells said that as well as our immediate priorities in discussions on a Programme for Economic and Social Development we will be insisting that these discussions take place in the context of a long term strategy. This will be the last opportunity we will have in this century to put together such a strategy. It is an opportunity that we cannot miss. It is probably rarely that a tribute is paid to Peter Cassells. There has been criticism and we should stop the begrudgery. If something is put in place that might be successful for the nation, we should pay a tribute to the people who have played a very significant role in doing so.

The Minister for the Environment made a statement last week outlining a new housing policy. Those in Local Government know what that contains. The objective of industrial policy is to have an increase of 100 per cent over the decade and the number of Irish manufacturing companies having an annual turnover greater than £5 million in real terms. We talked here a while ago about jobs. We should have more confidence in ourselves when we see nations like America and European countries looking at us and when we see tough, hardheaded business people prepared to come in here. Over 1,000 overseas owned companies have been established in Ireland over the past 20 years. Some 350 of those companies came from the United States.

When we see that and when we realise the number of jobs that have been created, and the type of money that has been put on-stream here, perhaps there should be less criticism of the Americans and of the way they have helped. They are tough business people, but they came in here. We should be less critical of the people and the nations who help us. Lashing the other side is a road I never went down when I was in Opposition. I was over on that side for a while before I moved on to become Cathaoirleach.

The international financial services centre is an area which is much more familiar to my friend, Seantor Ross, than to me. I do not even pretend to understand finance. He pretends he does. Twenty-three top banks have gone into the international financial services centre. There is nothing wrong with that under a Fianna Fáil Government, I rarely take credit or talk about what Fianna Fáil are doing.

The IDA's list of major new investments in 1990 shows that 30 top companies came into Ireland in that year. Let us stop the knocking. Let us give credit where credit is due. This what has happened to us as a people. This is why at times we ask why is there such little respect for politicians? I could not understand why this programme was voted against in the Dáil. I am sure the Fine Gael Senators will have much more sense and will vote for the programme tonight.

I would like to refer to the investment in tourism in the west and how important it is. Senator Jackman need have no worries about the over-flying of Shannon. It will not happen, regardless of the Dublin lobby. Tourism generates twice as much taxation as merchandise exports. Over £400,000 million, or 49 per cent of every £1 spent by tourists, ends up with the Exchequer. It is in the tourism area that I see potential for job creation. The Minister for Finance in his speech said:

We will continue the stability of the public finances and the economy in the face of challenging world trends. It will give us a very competitive base from which to expand our output, increase our employment and create jobs. It will enable our economy and this nation of ours to grow.

I welcome the programme and again pay tribute to the commitment and the commonsense of all the social partners with the Government. I am very critical of powers being taken from local government but I did not see anything wrong with the Government negotiating with our social partners, the farming organisations, or with anybody else, if it is for the benefit of the nation. As a politician, I have strong views on powers being left to the local authorities, but I do not agree that it was wrong that those negotiations should have taken place. There was no use putting a plan in place here or in the Dáil without the people who had to implement it.

I would like to put on record my thanks to all associated with the programme because everybody, except a few, seems to be doing everything to help this country take another solid step forward, without playing politics.

I would hate to be on that very short list of Ministers which the former Cathaoirleach did not actually mention in her contribution because I would think there was something waiting for me, when I went outside this evening, of a most unpleasant nature. I do not share Senator Honan's great euphoria about this programme, or about all the individual Ministers which she predictably mentioned with such enthusiasm this evening.

It is very easy to pick up a programme of this sort and because it is dressed up in such laudatory language and because it is full of assertions and subjective judgments to say immediately that it is a good thing and it is something we should approve. Because it is called a Programme for Economic and Social Progress it is, by definition, automatically placed in the pigeon hole of things of which we should approve. It is like a national wage agreement or the Anglo-Irish Agreement. It is something which we should, as a first and primary step, approve of. It is also misleading to talk of it in this way and to take things on their face value. Its whole thesis is based on what it calls “the social partners.” It is my contention that this is exactly what they are not.

I should have mentioned that with the agreement of the House I will give Senator Hourigan as much of my time as I can.

Before continuing, is it agreed that Senator Ross will share his time with Senator Hourigan? Agreed.

With regard to the social partners, it is a false premise to even accept that particular designation of the negotiators because the farmers, the unions, the employers and the Government are parcelling out the national cake after having an extremely stern fight about it. They are, in fact, antagonists and they are hostile to each other in their fight for the national cake. Once they have divided it up they are all happy.

I take issue as well with what the Taoiseach said in his opening remarks about this programme, when he said that partnership between all the interests in our society is the way forward, implying that this is what this document is representative of. It is not. This document is a reflection of a deal done between the vested interests and the power-vested interests in our society. It is not a reflection of all the interests in our society. There are many people who do not feel they are represented in this document, nor do they feel that they have been fairly treated in this document. Indeed, they feel excluded for this programme. The farmers are happy; the unions are happy; the CII are happy and the Government are happy. That is something which the people have to believe is a good thing for them as a whole because there is this great agreement.

There are plenty of people who are not happy. I certainly do not think that the mentally handicapped people, who occupied the Department of Health this morning, are too happy with this programme. I do not think the disabled are happy. I do not think the unemployed are happy. I do not think the voluntary bodies are happy. There are very many marginalised groups who are not represented in this programme and it does not do them any justice. It specifically excludes them.

It is time we took an honest approach to the problem of unemployment. I am not as long in this game as Senator Honan, but as long as I have been in it I can remember Ministers coming into this House and to the Dáil with flowery language about the problems of the unemployed and about it being their primary objective in Government to solve the problems of the unemployed.

It is time — Fianna Fáil are particularly guilty in this regard — that some Minister came to this House and said that Governments were relatively powerless to do anything about the unemployment problem. If they can do anything about it they have failed singularly to do anything about it in the last ten years and they are powerless to do anything about it in the future. It is time they admitted that unemployment is here to stay, regrettable as that is. It is something which politicians, if they are realistic at all, should acknowledge, instead of raising false hopes among the unemployed through making promises which they have patently failed to keep in the past and which they will fail to keep again as a result of this programme.

This programme, which mentions the unemployed at great length, is full of unrealistic promises about what they call a community-based, local-based solution to the unemployment problem. It is ill-thought out, is unrealistic and certainly will not create many jobs but, for the moment, it is enough to get over the problem of producing a Programme for Economic and Social Progress and break through the unemployment block which they must do in order to maintain credibility.

Let us look at the trade unions in regard to this issue. Was it in their brief? Were they representing the unemployed? I do not think so. There was nobody at these negotiations representing the unemployed. The trade unions looked after the employed people. They looked after their own patch and got far too good a deal from the Government but they got absolutely nothing for those who do not have jobs. That will buy industrial peace for the Government but it will do nothing for those on the dole queues. The chapter on the unemployed is bogus. It will not produce any jobs. It will go into the litter bin with every other programme for the unemployed which has been produced as far as I can remember. It is utterly dishonest and cruel to promise to reduce unemployment when we know perfectly well that it will not happen. Unemployment will continue and the trade unions are as guilty as anybody else.

I welcome some parts of the programme. They are good. The commitments given on education will be kept because they are of such a specific nature that it would be very difficult for the Government to back down on them. They give time, timetables and dates by which targets must be met. I welcome that. I welcome the fact that there is to be a Green Paper on Education and that an Education Act will be introduced by June. There is a firm commitment to reduce the pupil-teacher ratio and also in relation to teacher training. These are very important.

Many things were omitted, for example, the recognition given to teachers in our society. The problem of lack of mobility for teachers should have been tackled but it was a good attempt at tackling the problems in education. However, it does not state how these commitments will be paid. It is very important when we produce a programme which is full of targets, which really equals promises, to say how it will be paid for. Since the education programme is a capital programme, it should be paid for out of privatisation money.

It is expected that a large amount of capital or what should be treated as capital will come to the Government next year as a result of the privatisation of the Irish Sugar Company and Irish Life. Nobody knows how much that will be as it depends on market conditions and so on but there should be a commitment given to use some of it as a capital investment in education and if not in education then as a capital investment in something else. That should be slotted in somewhere so that the Government will not spend it on current spending. If that is not done and if we run into trouble in the economy, which we undoubtedly will, there will be the temptation to use the money from Irish Life to bail us out. We would paper over the cracks and it would be wasted. It will be a safety valve and it should not be used for current expenditure. To use it specifically for capital expenditure in education would be of great benefit to the country and would justify the Government's privatisation programme.

The section which deals with privatisation is unclear in its objectives. It is unclear why the Government propose to privatise certain companies. The document states that the Government have no ideological position on this. That can, of course, be read both ways. It is a poor reflection on Government thinking that they do not have any position on privatisation. They should have decided whether this was an efficient means of running industry or whether it should be done in a piecemeal way in order to raise money when the Government are in trouble. The danger is that if we successfully privatise the Irish Sugar Company and Irish Life the Government will regard privatisation money as a source of revenue. When they run into the trouble they are about to run into because of the world recession and as a result of the Gulf War etc. the temptation will be to put their hands in the privatisation money and paper over the cracks with that money.

The Government failed to give a commitment in this programme and there will be a great temptation for them to use the money for all the wrong purposes and literally waste it on current expenditure. May I ask the Chair how much time I have left?

Acting Chairman

Approximately nine minutes.

I will try to use as little of that as possible.

Acting Chairman

I understand the Minister does not wish to speak. We can share the balance of time between Senators Hourigan and Fallon.

I agree with some of what Senator Honan said; it is what she did not say that is always the problem. The economy was well run from 1987 to 1989 and up to 1990. It would be churlish to dispute that. Extremely courageous and unpopular decisions were taken which no Government like to take, particularly in the health and education areas. Senator Honan was right when she referred to an increase in investment confidence overseas between 1987 and 1989. There was a dramatic change in attitude by overseas investors after the change of Government in 1987. Investment came flowing into this country, particularly into Government stocks. It showed confidence in their policies. The unpopular measures hurt people in the health and education areas but they had a dramatic effect in that, as a result of overseas investment, take-home pay increased, employment increased a little and investment boomed. The balance of payments surplus increased and all the recognised economic indicators rose up. It was a dramatic turnaround and any fairminded person would give the Government full recognition for that. Although Senator Honan criticised Fine Gael, it is fair to say that they played a very responsible role in supporting the Government at that time.

On a point of order, my criticism of Fine Gael was because they voted against the programme last week in the Dáil. That was the only criticism I made.

Acting Chairman

Senator Ross to continue without interruption, please.

What I am worried about is that this programme threatens many of the great benefits enjoyed in that period. It is a departure from the economic fiscal rectitude which was imposed at that time. It is loosening the strings too early. It is consistent with the budget strategy introduced at the end of January by the Minister for Finance but it is based on an assumption of growth which very few reputable or impartial economists share with the Government. That is the reality. The Government, unfortunately, have a vested interest in stating a growth figure which may turn out to be way above what is realistic. That is the real danger we are faced with in this programme. If growth goes wrong everybody knows that this programme is out the window. The Government simply will not have any money to pay for it. Reputable and respected economists believe that growth will not be up to the expectations of the Government.

What we will see as a result of this programme is that public pay will be up by nearly 15 per cent this year. Even if you take the Government's figure, public service pay will rise by 13 per cent in 1991. It rose by 8 per cent in 1990. Given the worldwide recession, this is a sum which we simply will not be able to pay for except through higher taxes and borrowings.

It is a cowardly decision by the Government. They have capitulated to the public service unions, in particular the ICTU, and it is probably a promise which they will not be able to sustain except by borrowing in the future. They will have a very difficult decision to make in years to come because they will have to decide, when they cannot pay for this wage agreement out of earnings, whether to borrow the money. If they borrow money again we will be back to the slide down the economic poll where we were in 1972-87.

I would like to see realistic targets in this programme and a firm commitment that growth would pay for expenditure. I would like to see a firm commitment that if we did not earn the money to pay the public service we would not pay them. The only commitment we have is that if the targets are not met the Government will review the situation. That is not good enough. We are in some sort of wonderland. We have yielded to the temptation to promise jam tomorrow in the hope that we will be able to pay for it whereas we would have been better off not having a document like this at all.

I thank Senators Ross and Farrell for the time they have given to me. How much time do I have?

Acting Chairman

We conclude at 10 o'clock.

I will be brief.

Acting Chairman

The debate will finish tonight at 10 o'clock. There are 15 minutes left.

The Programme for National Recovery was introduced in 1987. There have been worthwhile and significant results in the intervening years. Positive and definite measures for the good of the economy emerged during that time and it would be rather ludicrous not to identify those improvements and acknowledge the progress made.

We are talking about the Programme for Economic and Social Progress. This programme has already been agreed to and we are debating its merits and demerits. There is much to commend in the programme. My reservations in the main are centred around the attainment of the various objectives set out in the programme. I am sceptical about some of the objectives and I am particularly dubious about employment targets. We have an unemployment figure of 241,000 or 250,000 — it is not terribly important which it is — but added to that an unknown number of people emigrated over the past number of months. If you were to add that figure to the number of those registered as unemployed you would get a figure not far from 300,000. I acknowledge that when many emigrants came here recently at Christmas they did not return overseas for very good reasons such as the danger posed by the Gulf War and so on. That is artificial. While employment prospects abroad may not be as great now, we will again be confronted with massive emigration.

I am sceptical of our ability to achieve the employment targets which have been laid down. Granted we can reach targets but at what cost? We must also realise what circumstances generated employment. In 1977 we had a very serious unemployment position which was rectified quite easily by massive recruitment in the Civil Service. That kind of artifical employment is no use. The programme the Minister has put before us contains many excellent points. We must employ people gainfully because there is little use in just having job creation for the sake of it.

There are three main areas which generate money: tourism, which has very strong potential, agriculture where the brakes are on at the moment and the potential is not so great, and industrial development. We must receive revenue from these areas if we are to finance the areas of health, education, law and order, the environment and so on which are non-earning. We rely on the income earning areas. The prospects in agriculture are not good as we are relying on tourism and industrial development.

I appreciate the measures introduced by the Minister for Social Welfare. They are very substantial and deserve to be lauded. The weakest section of society benefit from social welfare payments. Part-time workers form an important part of society with full-time employment becoming less easy to procure.

We must create a climate for industrial development. We are fortunate that American and European companies have located here but we must bear in mind that unless we have low interest and inflation rates and people who are available for work, we will not attract industry to this country. We must attract industry if we are to make any headway.

I agree with what Senator Honan said with regard to the mid-western region vis-a-vis Shannon. The status of Shannon will not be altered and Shannon will continue to do a very good job not alone for the mid-west region but for the country.

Hear, hear. Do not mind the Dublin fellows.

We must be mindful of how we set up development programmes in the future. Hopefully our massive borrowings have taught us a lesson. We borrowed heavily in the past and should be mindful of borrowing. I thank Senators Ross and Farrell for giving me part of their time.

Mr. Farrell

I welcome this Programme for Economic and Social Progress. When the Programme for National Recovery was brought forward it was scoffed at too; indeed, many development programmes brought forward in the past were scoffed at. They were all very successful but none more so than the Programme for National Recovery, and I have no doubt that the Programme for Economic and Social Progress will be even more so.

We all remember a time when we worried that industries would not locate here because we had the highest number of strikes in Europe. The Programme for National Recovery put an end to all that. Industrialists are now happy to come here because we have low interest and inflation rates. Senator Ross did not explain how our inflation rate was so low and England's so high.

I fail to understand why people say that all interests are not covered in this programme. The trade unions, teachers and employers are the people who count and they were all involved in it. Great credit is due to the Minister for Labour, Deputy Ahern, and his negotiating ability. He has brought peace and stability into the workforce and into industry.

We came to grips with emigration before and I have no doubt we will do so again. However, I am disappointed that so many people on the far side are pessimistic and have so little confidence in themselves because when they criticise the whole community they are criticising themselves as well. If they put more effort into being constructive instead of destructive, we would have a much better society.

I am delighted with this programme and I know it will lead to success and prosperity and that it will have the desired effect of reducing emigration which is what we all want to see.

I thank the Seanad for the time given to me today. I was given a long run to put my views forward on the Programme for Economic and Social Progress. In any programme negotiated between the social partners covering a wide range of people, from farmers with different interests to employers and the trade union movement and the Government taking into account all the sectional interests and national interests, you cannot, as Senator Ross and a few others were doing today, divorce the good points from those you do not like. You cannot say that all the things that are good in the programme lead to stability and should be kept but we should get rid of the bad. Nobody can negotiate that way except with a rifle. If you want to negotiate in a democracy you have to give and take, and that is what was done in this programme.

As I said earlier this afternoon, the important point of the agreement for the economy is that we will have moderate pay increases and Irish goods will be competitive abroad. We will have quality goods produced by a quality workforce. We must sell competitively and we can only do that if we maintain stability in our planning and in our economy. If we do that we will have low inflation. We had a position where GBR was at 13 per cent, we had double figure inflation and the country was practically out of control. Now we have single figure inflation; it is the lowest in Europe. We have interest rates that are just 2 per cent higher than Germany, which was 8 per cent a few years ago, and we are way below the United Kingdom. That attracts genuine investment which Senator Ross and others mentioned. If you have genuine investment you are allowed to increase your growth. We have 4 per cent growth. Exports are at a very high level. That attracts jobs and wealth into the economy.

None of those matters can be taken in isolation. Any Member who believes you can take a few good things and forget about the rest is making a fundamental economic mistake. No other country has achieved this. Japan has not achieved it nor has Germany. I believe that indepednent economists, whose bona fides to me are quite questionable, who normally make their money by questioning things and putting forward analyses of why things are wrong and rarely predict three years ahead, will, at the end of this three-year period, be as wrong as they were in the last period. This country can do very well during the next three years, and particularly over the next ten years. If we are wrong we will be answerable for that. Independent economists will just write another story in three years' time, or quite a lot of them will not be on the scene at all. It is amazing how many of the companies who put forward economists this time put forward different people on the last occasion.

I would like to thank you for the opportunity of debating the programme today and, in conclusion, I thank all the Senators who went to the trouble of making excellent contributions.

Question put.
The Seanad divided: Tá, 31; Níl, 17.

  • Bohan, Eddie.
  • Byrne, Hugh.
  • Byrne, Sean.
  • Cassidy, Donie.
  • Conroy, Richard.
  • Cullen, Martin.
  • Dardis, John.
  • Fallon, Sean.
  • Farrell, Willie.
  • Finneran, Michael.
  • Fitzgerald, Tom.
  • Hanafin, Des.
  • Haughey, Seán F.
  • Honan, Tras.
  • Hussey, Thomas.
  • Keogh, Helen.
  • Kiely, Rory.
  • Lanigan, Michael.
  • Lydon, Don.
  • McCarthy, Seán.
  • McGowan, Paddy.
  • McKenna, Tony.
  • Mooney, Paschal.
  • Mullooly, Brian.
  • Ó Cuív, Éamon.
  • O'Donovan, Denis A.
  • O'Keeffe, Batt.
  • O'Toole, Joe.
  • Ormonde, Donal.
  • Ryan, Eoin David.
  • Wright, G.V.

Níl

  • Cosgrave, Liam.
  • Doyle, Avril.
  • Hourigan, Richard V.
  • Howard, Michael.
  • Jackman, Mary.
  • Kennedy, Patrick.
  • McDonald, Charlie.
  • McMahon, Larry.
  • Manning, Maurice.
  • Naughten, Liam.
  • Neville, Daniel.
  • Norris, David.
  • Ó Foighil, Pól.
  • O'Reilly, Joe.
  • Raftery, Tom.
  • Ross, Shane P.N.
  • Staunton, Myles.
Tellers: Tá, Senators Wright and Fitzgerald; Níl, Senators Cosgrave and Neville.
Question declared carried.
Barr
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