The Order of Business for today is Item No. 3—Appropriation Bill, 1990 — which I hope will conclude by 4 p.m. If that is not feasible we will give extra time — I make that point — but the Minister will speak at about 3.45 p.m. In regard to that item we have agreed 15 minutes per speaker. At 4 p.m. we will start the debate on Item No. 4: "That Seanad Éireann approves the Programme for Economic and Social Progress.” That will continue until 6 p.m. and we will have a sos from 6 p.m. to 6.30 p.m. We will take the Fine Gael motion from 6.30 p.m. to 8 p.m. and we can resume on Item No. 4 from 8 p.m. until 10 p.m. dealing with the Programme for Economic and Social Progress. In that regard I am suggesting 20 minutes per speaker.
Order of Business.
On the Order of Business, we certainly cannot agree to complete Item No. 3 in an hour today. There is no question of that. Our Finance spokesman, for example, has not yet spoken on that matter. We are agreeable to take it for an hour but certainly we are not agreed to conclude it. I have no problem with a limit of 20 minutes on speakers for the Programme for Economic and Social Progress debate.
On the Order of Business I am sure all Members of the House would express their delight that the agony of the Birmingham Six is coming to an end at last. I would like to pay tribute to some of our colleagues here and in the other House who have been consistently with this issue from a very early stage, those who have been there from the beginning and who have fought this long and lonely battle which is, hopefully, coming to an end next week. I would like to pay tribute to those especially people like Deputy David Andrews and Deputy Peter Barry who from the very start have shown great solidarity — there are others also but I mention those two people in particular.
I would like to draw the attention of the Leader of the House to a statement made last week by the Director of Public Prosecutions where he said very clearly that the fraud laws in this country and the laws dealing with business fraud are hopelessly inadequate and that there is a need for major legislation in this area. I believe this is an issue to which this House could very usefully turn its attention. Would the Leader of the House in the next month or so arrange to have a debate on that whole area: what needs to be done to strengthen the Fraud Office in the Garda Síochána, what legislation is needed? We would be doing a great public service if we had a public debate on this matter.
Finally, I welcome the new-found interest among the Fianna Fáil Party in the question of divorce. I note with interest the support of the Minister for Education, the consistency of Senator Hanafin and the support of Senator Cassidy for family television. Would the Leader of the House, again before the end of this session, arrange to have a discussion on that topic? There is a huge problem of marriage breakdown. The problems are enormous and I think the other House is not paying any attention to it. We in this House could do a useful day's public work by having a debate on this issue.
Just to reiterate what Senator Manning has said and what has already been brought to the attention of the Leader of the House, I believe it would be inappropriate to finish the Appropriations debate at 4 p.m. You recall that we rushed it through fairly quickly in the previous debate before Christmas, but that was on the basis that we would have plenty of time afterwards. I certainly do not want to see it dragging on for a long period of time. At the same time we have agreed to a restriction on the time element and it should find its own level after that. The Minister perhaps may want to come in today, but the debate itself should be allowed to continue.
May I also ask the Leader of the House to indicate the programme as he sees it for Committee Stage of the Environmental Protection Agency Bill? I note on today's Order Paper that it is ordered for 7 March. Does he intend to take it on 7 March or what is the plan at this time? I ask that because, first of all, being a very lengthy Bill, the number of amendments will be quite large. I also note that in the past few days a number of major interests among the social partners have made representations to the Minister on this legislation. That has tended in the past to delay the taking of Committee Stage. I do not object to that. It is important that people make their views known on issues but we should also have at least a fortnight's notice of when Committee Stage is expected to be taken, because people are going to do a fair amount of preparation on the amendments, etc., and I would like to have some indication of that.
At the outset may I say how pleased I am in relation to the Birmingham Six, that this whole sorry saga now seems to be reaching its final stages? I welcome the fact that these people are going to be released next Monday. I hope that, arising from it, there will be an improvement in Anglo-Irish relations. It is terrible that the whole problem took so long——
I would be grateful if you would confine yourself strictly to your good wishes for the improvement in that situation rather than going into a speech on it, and you can see the reason for that.
All right. I am happy the matter is reaching a conclusion. Would the Leader of the House be prepared to make time available for a debate on the laws of libel in the light of the fact that in this morning's newspapers there are reports that a small provincial paper is being put at great risk arising out of proceedings in the court yesterday where costs of the order of £100,000 seem to have been given. I fully accept that the public have to be protected, but I would hope there would be some other way of doing it which would not involve putting small newspapers into liquidation.
An mbeadh Ceannaire an Tí sásta díospóireacht a chur ar bun faoin Ghaeilge agus faoi pholasaíthe i leith na Gaeilge i gceann trí seachtain, tráth a mbeidh Seachtain na Gaeilge ar siúl ar fud na tíre? Creidim gur am maith é le díospóireacht den chineál sin a eagrú agus, b'fhéidir, ócáid bhliantúil a dhéanamh de.
I would like to ask the Leader of the House if he will consider in three weeks time, when Seachtain na Gaeilge will be on, whether he would agree to a debate on the Irish language and the policy of promotion of the Irish language during that week.
I would like to ask the Leader of the House if he has a response to my request over the past two weeks to introduce in this House a Bill on the issue of Government responsibility for the release of prisoners who have committed crimes with diminished responsibility. I compliment the Leader of the House on his positive response to my requests over the past two weeks and ask him if he now has a reply from the Minister for Justice.
I always knew the Leader of the House was an optimist but to believe that we can get through the Appropriation Bill in an hour is exceeding the limits of his undoubted optimism. I congratulate him for at least his optimistic outlook.
I would like to be associated with the words of congratulations to the Birmingham Six and to say that, as many of us in this House know, the next item on that agenda is going to be Danny McNamee and unfortunately, we are going to go through the same whole ritual again in that case. May I ask those Members of this House who have perhaps more influence on the Government than I to see whether they can do anything to stop the horrendous slaughter now going on in the Gulf?
It is not a matter for the Order of Business.
In the interests of humanity, a Cathaoirligh, I would have thought I would at least be allowed——
I agree that there is definitely an interest in that area but I feel it is not appropriate to the Order of Business. If I allow the Senator to make a contribution outside the procedures as laid down, then everybody else would feel entitled to make their own contribution.
May I be strictly in order, Sir, and ask the Leader of the House if he will consider allowing Motion 73 in my name and that of Senator O'Toole, calling for an immediate ceasefire to be taken? In that way at least I am staying in touch with the Order of Business. I believe there are fundamental human values at stake in this issue now.
I support fully the request from the Leader of Fine Gael for a debate on the issue of divorce. I am glad that reality has begun to penetrate the thinking of the party of reality.
It is not a matter appropriate to the Order of Business.
(Interruptions.)
It is not realistically appropriate.
I do not understand how it was a matter appropriate to the Order of Business for the Leader of Fine Gael and not for myself.
The Leader of Fine Gael went to the brink and the Senator is at it also.
(Interruptions.)
Senator Norris, compose yourself, please.
Tacáim leis an Seanadóir Ó Cuív in a iarratas ar Cheannaire an Tí go mbeadh díospóireacht faoi staid agus todhchaí — nó easpa todhchaí, b'fhéidir — na Gaeilge, le linn Seachtain na Gaeilge atá ag teacht go luath. Bheadh sé oiriúnach, anois nuair atá an córas aistriúcháin againn agus os rud é gur Seachtain na Gaeilge a bheadh ann, a leithéid de dhíospóireacht a chur ar siúl. Dá bhrí sin d'iarrfainn air glacadh le tairiscint an Seanadóir Ó Cuív.
May I ask the Leader, as I think I have done fairly politely for a number of weeks, not to forget that there is a promise to have a debate on the prison system and related issues, as a matter of commitment given before Christmas, and I would like him to give us some assurance that it can be taken fairly quickly.
I fully support Senator O'Toole in his request that we be given at least two weeks' notice of Committee Stage of the Environment Protection Agency Bill. It is a major item of legislation which many Members of this House have taken very seriously and it should be dealt with in an organised and proper fashion. It is not a contentious political issue; it is a serious issue——
You have said sufficient about that matter. Thank you, Senator Ryan.
May I be allowed to join with other Senators in congratulating, first, the Taoiseach and the Government and all the groups who have worked so hard for so long to have the British justice system correct a major mistake they made——
Senator, I must apply the same rule to you as to the previous speaker.
——in accepting belated justice and allowing the Birmingham six to be released.
May I ask the Leader to explain to the House if indeed his Whip has indicated to him why the Appropriation Bill was put on the Order Paper for one hour this afternoon? After all, I understand that the Appropriation Bill, a matter of finance, has the same Minister as the Programme for Economic and Social Progress we were to discuss at 3 o'clock. I ask him to level with us. Perhaps the Minister was delayed or is elsewhere and you could not have the relevant Minister here at a certain time. We could understand that. Quite honestly, both are very important issues and we would hate to think that the time to discuss the Programme for Economic and Social Progress was being limited for anything but honourable reasons. However, we would like to know why the Appropriation Bill, which needs a day in itself to be adequately dealt with, should have been put on to the Order Paper for this afternoon and an attempt made to conclude it.
I would like to join with other Members of the House in expressing pleasure at the positive development with regard to the Birmingham Six case. I would like to express a little concern about the córas aistriúcháin. Although I find that I can normally follow what Senator Ó Cuív says because of his excellent diction as well as his superb Irish as an experiment, I tried but I could not locate any translation at all of it. It also strikes me, a Chathaoirligh — and I am not sure that this was explained to the House — that there is no translation from English into Irish. This may be a lot to ask, but I think it would be quite helpful if there was a kind of parallel situation for monoglots, as Senator Murphy, my colleague, says.
I would like to support very strongly Senator Brendan Ryan in urging that time be made available for Motion 73 about the Gulf War. At the time this was placed on the Order Paper I did not feel it appropriate to call for an immediate ceasefire in the Gulf. Now, however, I would happily add my name to that motion and, if Senator Ryan permits me, I will do so this afternoon. I hope the Leader may find this appropriate in order, as Senator Ryan said, to stop the slaughter.
I would like to ask the Leader of the House if he will provide time next week for the taking of Motion 74. I will not be moving a change in the Order of Business today but I will next week. It is about the judgment in the question of the contraceptive case. I think it is vital that we remove by legislation means this moral imbecility, which exposes young people in this country to the risk of infection.
Finally a Chathaoirligh, may I express my regret that I appeared to have troubled you with a repetitious item for the Adjournment and to say in explanation that I did so merely because I received communication yesterday that a new allocation is about to be made and that seemed to me to be new circumstances.
It is very kind of you to apologise to me but it is really unimportant on the Order of Business.
It think it is important to the operation of democracy when you consider the way that the Government have bleated about the discrimination against Glór na nGael and have perpetuated a discrimination against a minority of the public.
I have ruled, Senator.
By the way, Sir, it is an explanation, not an apology.
Somebody on "Questions and Answers" said you were a national monument. How right they were.
(Interruptions.)
The only difficulty we have with that national monument is that it speaks at length. Last week I expressed my concern about the changes relating to Visa charges by the Allied Irish Bank, their request for monitoring bank charges and I tied all of it into EC Directive 87/102 which covers money lending——
I had to rule on that last week, Senator, and I stated that it was out of order.
I beg your permission to elaborate on this because I think it is important. It was ruled down on the basis of a lack of ministerial responsibility.
The Order of Business is not to raise this matter this time. I am trying to get the co-operation of all Members on all sides of this House. There was an occasion here only a fortnight ago when Members were very concerned about the fact that the Order of Business apparently went out of control for more than an hour. If that is what the House wants, then the House can decide to have it. Otherwise we stick with Standing Orders. I will give the Senator a brief moment to comment.
I am generally very brief and I take up very little time on the Order of Business but I need clarification on this issue——
Have you a question?
I have, but I would like to lead into that question. It was ruled out on the basis of a lack of ministerial responsibility. I mentioned that I tied it into a review of an EC Directive which, I understand, is going on in the Department of Industry and Commerce. Therefore, a Chathaoirligh, you can understand my surprise when on the Adjournment yesterday in the Dáil this issue was taken by the Minister for Industry and Commerce and I think, in deference to me, I am owed some explanation as to why this issue could not have been deemed as being a suitable question on the Adjournment last week.
I would like to add my voice to those who offered their best wishes to the Birmingham Six for what is apparently their imminent release and congratulating those in the House of the Oireachtas and elsewhere, and also across the Channel in certain circles in England, who did all in their power to achieve this imminent and highly satisfactory result. That these people should be incarcerated in jail for up to 20 years is a complete outrage, but justice, apparently, is on the point of being done.
Secondly, I wish to state very briefly that today is a very auspicious day in world history because this morning the liberation of Kuwait took place. Given that our country is a member of the United Nations, supported the sanctions and supported the various United Nations resolutions, the least we should do from this House is to send our best wishes to whatever ambassador from Kuwait is accredited to this country expressing to the Kuwaitis every good wish for the future and commiserating with them on the problems they have had. I would take no exception whatever to a debate taking place in this House on the Gulf issue. We need a little bit of balance instead of simply talking about immediate ceasefires which would let the tyrant off the hook.
(Interruptions.)
I am very happy to place myself solidly in the allied camp and with the United Nations on that issue and I would like to propose that those best wishes be conveyed to the Kuwaiti Government.
As a result of yesterday's court decision against the Irish Family Planning Association with regard to the sale of condoms in this country, I ask the Leader of the House to seek from the Minister for Health with the utmost urgency new legislation or amending legislation to change the law in this area. I believe it leaves the people in this country in an appalling situation and I do not believe the majority of people support what the law now states. I also feel that if we have any aspirations to a pluralist society in this country and express the values we want, this is certainly not the way to go about it. It is nonsensical, farcical and inhumane to behave in this manner. I would expect that a responsible Government, as I know this one is, will deal with this matter with some urgency and that such overtly religious bias in legislation would be removed.
(Interruptions.)
I do not know what Senator Norris is engaging in. Senator Murphy, without interruption.
The córas aistriúcháin will take some time to work itself out, but in due course I hope that the outlandish dialects which I hear from various sides will be automatically rendered into the mellifluous and kingly tongue of west Muskerry. I hope that will be given due attention.
I share the mystification of those who have objected to the meagre allocation of time to the Appropriation Bill. Traditionally, we have been given plenty of time to deal with this and I cannot believe the Leader is serious when he is talking about a mere hour on this business.
I support other voices who have drawn conclusions from yesterday's court decision and I hope the Leader will urge the Taoiseach to consider an urgent amendment of present family planning legislation. In the meantime we could do worse than ask the Committee on Procedure and Privileges — and I speak as one who has no longer any practical interest in these matters — to install vending machines in this House which would show up the nonsense of family planning, the hypocrisy of family planning legislation. I have no doubt there would be a considerable demand for the products of these machines.
Hear, hear. If we keep——
Senator Norris, your enthusiasm should not form part of the Order of Business.
Finally, as someone who did not lift a luidín to help the Birmingham Six, I cannot but rejoice nonetheless at their imminent freedom; but I hope that it is not going to result in a carnival of anti-extradition reaction and a carnival of fellow-travelling triumphalism. I hope we will be spared that when they come out.
I would also like to share the sentiments of previous speakers that the agony of the Birmingham Six is over. It is great that justice has at last been done. But I think grave exception should be taken to the manner in which Pat Kenny on radio last Monday morning dismissed the politicians' contribution in the campaign for the release of the Birmingham Six. Politicians are expected to work on cases like this and, when they do not, they are criticised. I think it was very unbecoming of Pat Kenny to dismiss the appreciation of the politicians' role in this expressed by a man who is in a better position to judge than Mr. Kenny.
I would like to support Senator Staunton's call to send a message of congratulations to the Kuwaitis and also at the same time to congratulate the American forces on the restraint they showed and on freeing the world——
It is not appropriate to the Order of Business.
——from a tyrant, a man who captured 5,000 Kuwaitis.
I, too, would like to say how pleased everybody is that the Birmingham Six have finally got justice. I think also that there are certain people who deserve to be congratulated because during all those years when those poor men were locked up——
Will the Senator put a question to the Leader?
Certain people deserve to be congratulated. They fought the case over all those years and it must be a great encouragement to them. That includes people from different parties, Deputies Peter Barry, David Andrews and others. Many people took an active interest and they deserve to be congratulated, too. Senator O'Keeffe wished to raise the matter of moneylenders. Moneylending is a scourge. I am delighted he is including AIB in the——
On a point of order, it is not appropriate for the Senator to attack a group who are not in a position to defend themselves in this House.
I can only rely on the Senator to make amends if he feels it necessary at a future date.
Senator Manning and others referred to the Appropriation Bill. I said "to conclude, hopefully" or words to that effect, I suppose God loves a trier. I certainly did not make it obligatory that we would conclude the debate. The Minister who has responsibility for the Programme for Economic and Social Progress is taking questions in the House. He was very anxious to be here for the debate and we availed of the filler-in for an hour——
The Senator could have told us that.
I am telling the Senator now that that is the exact position. Senator Manning also raised the question of the Birmingham Six, as did many other Senators. In regard to this issue and also the issue of the Gulf War, we would all hope that by this time next week the Birmingham Six will be free men and that the war will have ended. That is certainly a hope I have and I am sure it is shared by everybody in this Chamber.
Senator Manning also asked for a debate on fraud. It is something he has asked me about for the first time today. I will certainly investigate the position and see what can be done. He also asked for a debate on marriage breakdown. Again, it is something I will consider and talk to him about.
Senator O'Toole raised the question of the Appropriation Bill and in particular he asked about the Environmental Protection Agency Bill and when the Committee Stage will take place. My understanding at this time is that Committee Stage will take place on 13 or 14 March and 20 and 21 March. That is the time-scale that is planned at the moment.
Senator Upton referred to the Birmingham Six. Many politicians, quite rightly, have been congratulated for their efforts, but we cannot ignore the all-party Anglo-Irish situation. They, too, have played a big role in this issue. The law of libel was raised by Senator Upton. Again, it is something new to me and I understand his concern in the knowledge of the case he referred to. I will think about it.
Senator Ó Cúiv asked a question regarding Seachtain na Gaeilge, Irish Week, from 11 March to 17 March. It would be appropriate that we would have a díospóireacht on the Irish language on either Wednesday or the Thursday of that week. That point also applies to Senator Brendan Ryan who raised the question.
I still have no reply to Senator Neville's question. I hope to get it as quickly as possible and I will come back to him as soon as possible. Senator Brendan Ryan raised a number of issues: the Appropriation Bill, the Gulf War, the Birmingham Six and item No. 73. I have no plans in this regard. Hopefully we will have no need for it when we come back next week. He also asked for a díospóireach for Seachtain na Gaeilge and he asked about divorce. He particularly asked about a debate on the prison system. I am not forgetting it. I am trying to get it in place as quickly as possible. Senator McGowan praised the Birmingham Six. Senator Doyle asked me to "level with us", to "come clean". I have explained the situation regarding——
There was a sense she would have to withdraw them.
Who would have to withdraw them? I understand Senator Doyle. Senator Norris raised Items Nos. 73 and 74 and I have noted his comments, particularly on Motion No. 74.
I have noted what Senator O'Keeffe said regarding an Adjournment matter. Senator Staunton queried the Gulf issue and the Birmingham Six. Senator Cullen went on to the problem the Irish Family Planning group find themselves faced with and he asked for new legislation. That is a matter for a minister, I will talk to the Minister and see what happens.
Senator Murphy had a similar question regarding the situation the Irish Family Planning group find themselves in. He also raised a question on the Birmingham Six, as did Senator Kiely and Senator Hanafin. Senator Lydon referred to the problem in the Gulf.
The Order of Business, as indicated by the Leader of the House, was that at 4 o'clock the debate on the Appropriation Bill would end. Is it at that time the debate will adjourn?
That is the position.
Order of Business agreed to.