It is proposed to take item No. 3, the motion on the Appropriation Act, 1990, until 6 o'clock. There will be a sos between 6 p.m. and 6.30 p.m. From 6.30 p.m. to 8 p.m. we take motion 73, the Independents' motion and I would draw Member's attention to the fact that there is an amendment circulated — it has been mentioned on the Supplementary Order Paper — in regard to that particular motion.
Order of Business.
Could we have a copy of the amendment?
It is circulated, I understand. At 8 p.m. we resume discussion on the motion on the Appropriation Act, 1990, and the Minister is to reply not later than 9.45 p.m.
On the Order of Business, first, may I ask the Leader of the House if he could indicate to us what Government Bills other than those already on the Order Paper he expects to introduce in the House before the end of the session.
Secondly, may I ask him — and ask him with a great sense of urgency — if he would try to respond to the request that has come from this side of the House over the past number of weeks for a debate on Northern Ireland? The bloody killings of the past week indicate the urgency of this debate, allied to the fact that there seems to be closeness of agreement between all the constitutional parties. I think all sides here would welcome an opportunity to have a debate as soon as possible on Northern Ireland.
Finally, a Leas-Chathaoirligh, last week the Leader of the House responded very quickly to the request for statements on the Gulf, and for that I commend him. He did something which the other House was not capable of doing and in a way with which all of us here were very pleased. To a certain extent he has whetted our appetite and I believe there is now a range of foreign policy issues — certainly, the aftermath of the Gulf War, South Africa, the Baltic states; and Senator Ryan has mentioned a number of issues in recent times. It would be of great value if within the next week or two he could arrange to have a day set aside for a wide-ranging foreign affairs debate. The issues and the interest are there and I would appeal to him in the interest of the House that he would as far as possible accede to this request.
There are a number of points. First, I asked the Leader of the House last week if he would indicate to us how he thought Committee Stage of the Environmental Protection Agency Bill would be taken. It is a long and complex piece of legislation. I asked that we would have some prior indication of when particular sections were proposed to be taken. I suggest that in order to expedite the business and to ensure that the matter is dealt with fully — I have no doubt it will be changed quite considerably in the course of debate — perhaps we should organise it in such a way that certain parts are taken on particular days or that a set number of sections are taken on particular days rather than to start off with the view that we are going to head straight into this Bill and see how far we get on it. It deserves longer consideration and I think the Minister and Department would prefer to have it that way.
The matter of a debate on education was raised in the course of the last session. At that stage the Minister herself during the course of the debate here, and I think also the Leader of the House, indicated that the possibility of a debate during each session on developments in education was something that would be welcomed. Certainly, in the light of the role of education vis-a-vis discussions and negotiations, that would be very much welcomed.
Having said that, however, I support Senator Manning's call for a debate on Northern Ireland as taking precedence over all other issues at this time. It was also called for recently by Senator McGowan. It is time to consider that issue at the moment.
May I ask the Leader of the House if he would make time available for debate on homelessness in view of the problems which Fr. Peter McVerry is at present experiencing in relation to the accommodation of homeless boys in the Dublin area and the crisis of homelessness among young people in Dublin.
Secondly, may I ask the Leader if he can give us any indication as to the status of the local government reform legislation, when we can expect it or, indeed, if we can expect it in this session? Finally, will the Leader of the House give us some update on the progress if any, which has been made, in relation to suggestions for reform of the business of this House.
I would first like to congratulate Miss Blake on her appointment and ask the Leader of the House if he would confer with the Minister for Justice with regard to motion 75:
That Seanad Éireann calls on the Government to reform the Irish bail laws, and to hold a constitutional referendum in line with the local government elections to facilitate this.
I support what Senator Upton said with regard to the question of reform of procedures. I understood there was a committee which had met and made some recommendations but perhaps my memory is hazy. I say this because I would like, for example, certain informations which you, Sir, might be able to place in my possession. For example, I understand there is in existence — and perhaps you could confirm this — a book of guidelines covering rulings from the Chair on various issues such as raising matters under Standing Order 29 and so on. If this does exist and can be confirmed, could this not be made available to Members of the House so that we can frame motions in such a way that they will fall within the remit——
An Leas-Chathaoirleach
That is not in order on the Order of Business, Senator. I ask you to stay with the Order of Business.
I think it is a matter of concern. If this body is still sitting, perhaps the Leader of the House would draw this matter to its attention. I think we could perform more efficiently if we had this information. You will recall, Sir, that during debate on the Altamont Bill we discovered there was a completely different——
(Interruptions.)
Ask your leader.
An Leas-Chathaoirleach
Will you put a question to the Leader of the House, Senator Norris, please.
The question brought to mind by Senator Honan is to ask the Leader if he is aware that, unlike the Fianna Fáil Party, the Independents are not in a situation of having uno duce or una voce——
(Interruptions.)
There is another matter that could easily be brought up and that is that on many occasions Ministers come in during times allocated to Members of this House and they take much of the time that should be properly allocated to Senators.
An Leas-Chathaoirleach
I ask the Senator to put a question to the Leader of the House, if he has one.
I have indeed. I would like to support what Senator Manning said about a foreign affairs debate. I note that at least one of the items appears to have been overtaken by events. I refer directly to motion 72 in the names of Senator Ryan and Senator O'Toole, about the Gulf War. Senator Manning referred to the aftermath of the Gulf War and surely, Sir, it would be appropriate for us, in the light of our being a neutral nation, to say something about the plight of the Palestinians in Kuwait. I believe we have a responsibility to say something in terms of our international guardianship of human rights. I believe many Members in the House would welcome a debate on this issue.
First, I would like to congratulate Miss Blake, our new Clerk Assistant, and wish her well in her new job. Also, I would like to focus again on the number of issues we brought up in the distant past and some of them in the recent past; for example, the question of a debate on Northern Ireland and a debate on the prisons. I see once again, indeed almost every day in the papers, where there is not just a juvenile but a child, a 13-year old boy, for whom there is no residential centre. Senator Upton mentioned the situation of the homeless and the flat in Ballymun where Father Peter McVerry is trying to accommodate these young lads who are at risk. Certainly, the whole area of prisons requires a debate and we have been asking for it for a long time.
In relation to a debate on education, may I ask the Leader of the House whether he will include such a debate? Senator O'Toole also mentioned that matter. There are very considerable developments taking place in this area. Tomorrow, for example, is the launch of the new National Council for Curriculum and Assessment and a number of other areas. I would like time to be given to that. I would like the Leader of the House to refer to that matter.
I would also like to ask if, in view of the daily collapse of the case against the Birmingham Six and the imminent release of those people who have been in prison now for almost 17 years, people who have obviously been in prison largely because they were Irish people——
An Leas-Chathaoirleach
I will have to ask the Senator to put a question.
Has the Leader of the House any thoughts on an appropriate way for us to receive or honour them in some way? May I ask whether it is appropriate to refer to some outrageous remarks that were made by a Minister in the other House in relation to rejecting the principle of votes for emigrants on the grounds they might abuse them, whereas nearly every other country in the European Community has that facility?
An Leas-Chathaoirleach
I will have to rule the Senator out of order. What happens in the other House is not a matter for us.
Ba mhaith liom a fhiafraí den Cheannaire an mbeadh sé sásta ráiteas a dhéanamh faoi Sheomra na Gaeilge. Mar is eol dó, d'oscail an Taoiseach Seomra na Gaeilge le go leor cainte agus ríméid roimh Nollaig agus fuair sé go leor poiblíochta dá bharr. Ach anois tá na doirse dúnta agus tá an glas ar an ndoras. An mbeidhan Ceannaire in ann a chinntiú dúinn——
An Leas-Chathaoirleach
I am sorry to interrupt the Senator, but that is a matter for the Committee on Procedure and Privileges.
Go raibh maith agat. Tá mé ag cur ceiste díreach air. Nach bhfuil seisean ar an Committee on Procedure and Privileges?
An Leas-Chathaoirleach
The Senator has a means of dealing with this.
On behalf of perhaps the entire independent group, I congratulate Miss Blake on her appointment.
Hear, hear.
I do not intend to be critical. Since I do not live in Dublin they may have been posted to me, but are there any Government amendments to the Environmental Protection Agency Bill?
Stacks of them.
I do not mean Fianna Fáil amendments; I mean the Government, which is not Fianna Fáil, in case Fianna Fáil have forgotten.
(Interruptions.)
I know a coalition Government is difficult. I appreciate that coalition is painful and that it involves compromise. May I have some indication from the Leader of the House when or if Government amendments to the Environmental Protection Agency Bill will be introduced? The Minister, quite rightly, asked us to be as prompt as we could with our amendments on this side to give time for reasonable consideration. I think it is reasonable to say that those of us who have to consider amendments from the Government should be entitled to a similar period of time. May I know if there are going to be amendments and, if there are, when they will be published. Perhaps they have been published in which case I stand corrected.
As they say in America, read my lips. I agree with Senator Manning that we need a debate on foreign affairs. I look forward to hearing all the defenders of freedom in the Gulf defend the decision to suppress any possibility of democracy either in Kuwait or Iraq in future. I believe that freedom means democracy and I would like to hear people explain this. There is a whole series of issues. We have, unquestionably, a new word——
Speech.
An Leas-Chathaoirleach
I ask the Senator to put a question to the Leader of the House.
I bow to your ruling. I would simply say that, since it was Senator Manning who reminded the House that I was making a speech, I will not be any longer——
Was it the content you objected to?
(Interruptions.)
Aithníonn ciaróg ciaróg eile.
(Interruptions.)
Ní fheadar an aithníonn ciaróg ciaróg eile ach ní hionann an chiaróg seo agus an chiaróg eile.
An Leas-Chathaoirleach
Senator Ryan, if you have a further question to the Leader of the House, I ask you to put it.
Yet again, just to make sure it is not forgotten, I repeat my reminder to the Leader and ask him about the debate on prisons and the criminal justice system for which we are still waiting.
Le críochnú, an bhfuil aon rud le rá ag an gCeannaire faoi Seachtain na Gaeilge atá le tosnú an tseachtain seo chugainn? Tá súil agam go mbeidh rud éigin le fógairt aige faoin cheist sin.
May I ask the Leader of the House when we can have a debate on the urgent and important matter of the funding of the health services in view of his recent statement in this regard? There is a very critical situation regarding the financing of the health services. I would like to ask the Leader of the House when this matter can be treated as a matter of extreme urgency.
May I say in passing that I do not agree with Senator Norris and his strictures on the Ministers speaking too long. We have a problem in getting Ministers in here to speak sufficiently long in this House. Perhaps the Leader of the House might give consideration to some arrangements under which if Ministers are speaking at length there might be some extended time so that time is not whittled away from Senators. However, I welcome any Minister coming to this House, speaking at length and treating us with the respect we deserve.
I would like to put a question to the Leader of the House in support of Senator Manning. The Leader has been very helpful recently in convening debates at short notice on a number of issues — for example, including a very fast response to the Gulf issue.
An Leas-Chathaoirleach
I will have to ask the Senator to put a question.
It is leading me on to ask you, as we requested two or three weeks ago, to arrange with considerable haste a debate in this House in relation to the Northern Ireland question and the initiative taken by Secretary of State Brooke. From what we read, it is reaching crisis proportions but unfortunately it is an issue which apparently is not being discussed in the Oireachtas. We are completely at the mercy of the Executive for what——
An Leas-Chathaoirleach
We cannot discuss it here, Senator.
I take your point but if we could have an urgent debate on this issue it would be helpful to the whole process of democracy and would express our interest in this part of our island. Secondly, I support Senator Manning in asking the Leader of the House to arrange a debate on foreign policy issues. My principal concern is the post-Gulf War situation in the Middle East and the urgent necessity for a fundamental settlement of the Middle East question, which is centred on the Palestine question.
First, I would like to add my congratulations to Miss Blake on her appointment as Clerk Assistant.
Secondly, I would like to support Senator Costello and Senator O'Toole in looking for a debate on education. Unlike the situation where Ministers may not be available, the Minister made it quite clear when she was speaking on the Fine Gael Private Members' Bill in the last session that she would like to be here once every session. This session is nearly at its conclusion and I ask that the Leader would convey our invitation to the Minister to come before Easter, because there are many burning issues in education that need to be addressed, as already outlined.
I wonder if the Leader of the House would be prepared to give an explanation as to the late sittings. I understand from the Order of Business today that we are again sitting until 10 o'clock tonight. When I first came here almost 21 years ago it was customary to sit until that hour in both Houses of the Oireachtas. The late John Kelly went to great lengths to persuade the Oireachtas to change to an earlier, and I think the term used was a more respectable concluding time. It seems now we are slipping back into——
An Leas-Chathaoirleach
I will have to ask the Senator to put a question to the Leader of the House.
Without any reference to the Members of the House, it appears a decision has been made somewhere to have late sittings. One does not mind that for a couple of weeks, but it now seems that every week we sit until 10.30 p.m. The House is owed an explanation as to where this decision was made, who made it and why it was made. Is it really necessary? Could we get back to the more respectable hour?
I am sure we all want Committee Stage of the Environmental Protection Agency Bill to be dealt with expeditiously. We would be grateful if the Leader of the House would indicate as clearly as he can at this stage when we will be dealing with Committee Stage and in what manner.
First, I wish to tender my congratulations and good wishes to Miss Blake on her promotion to the position of Clerk Assistant. I know we will have a very happy time working together as a team with her and the other people involved.
I would like to ask the Leader of the House when is it intended to have a debate on the health services? I want to stress very briefly that the position on the health services at present is absolutely dire and I think a debate at an early date is urgent. I want to wholeheartedly support the point made by Senator Kennedy in this regard.
On behalf of the Government side, I would like to congratulate Miss Blake on her appointment and wish her very well in her new role.
Senator Manning asked for details of Government Bills for the two or three weeks before Easter. At the moment it is suggested to me that we will have the Sugar Bill, The Worker Protection (Regular Part-time Employees) Bill, the Radiological Protection Bill, the Sea Pollution Bill, the Destructive Insects and Pests (Amendment) Bill and the Fisheries (Amendment) Bill. In addition, I have been, as always, endeavouring to have new legislation initiated and I am hopeful that something will come to us before Easter. Obviously, if a request came from the Minister for a Bill to be initiated here we would like to facilitate him if at all possible. That is the programme coming up to the Easter recess.
Senator Manning also asked for a debate on Northern Ireland. I cannot say at this time if that is on. He also asked for a debate on foreign affairs. Again, I cannot give any commitments on that before Easter. I will examine it, but I do not think it is possible in the light of all the legislation on hand.
Senator O'Toole asked, as did other Senators, how Committee Stage of the Environmental Protection Agency Bill might progress. Obviously, there will be many amendments, and I would imagine that the Government, too, would have amendments to such a major Bill. I was led to believe that we would take Committee Stage next week; but, if not next week, certainly the week after.
Senators O'Toole and Jackman asked for a debate on education. I will certainly make inquiries and see if it is possible. With so many good things happening in Education, I think the Minister would be very happy to talk to us. The Northern Ireland situation was also raised by Senator O'Toole and I have indicated what might happen there.
Senator Upton referred specifically to the position that Fr. Peter McVerry finds himself in and asked for a debate on that broad issue. As I said to Senator Upton, it is a matter suitable for Private Members' time and it is certainly suitable for mention in the Child Care Bill, which we will be discussing tomorrow. I cannot see that I will be making time available for a discussion specifically on that point.
Senator Upton mentioned local government reform and when we might discuss that matter. My understanding is that it will be probably in April or May or thereabouts. Senator Neville asked about motion 75. I have no plans to take that at the present time.
Senator Norris queried the Order of Business. He is right in saying that it has been discussed by "some committee", as he put it. The Committee on Procedure and Privileges have mentioned it and had some discussion on it last week. It would probably be true to say that there will be ongoing discussions on the Order of Business for a few weeks at least with the Committee on Procedure and Privileges.
Senator Norris also raised the foreign affairs issue and I have explained that.
Senator Costello asked specifically about a debate on education and on the prison system. I am very anxious about this. I gave a commitment to Senator Brendan Ryan, Senator Harte and other Senators about the prison situation. I would certainly like to do something about that and I am trying to do something, if possible, before the Easter recess. He also raised the question of education and of the Birmingham Six which were not relevant.
Senator Ó Foighil raised a question about Seomra na Gaeilge which is not relevant to the Order of Business. I understand the point he made and I know it is causing concern to many Senators.
Senator Brendan Ryan asked about Government amendments. I imagine that there will be amendments from the Government side. He also asked for a foreign affairs debate and a prisons debate. We will have Seachtain na Gaeilge next week. We are actively pursuing a two hour debate as agreed last week and we hope to have it next week.
Senator Kennedy referred to the funding of health boards. That is suitable for Private Members' Business and I have no plans to take it in Government time.
Senator Staunton referred to the question of Ministers coming in here and speaking for a long time. I support what he said. It has been a tradition in this House that if a Minister comes in and wants to leave his script aside and continue as Minister O'Kennedy did last week when he gave us a fine contribution on agriculture, he should be allowed to do so. I understand and appreciate his point that if that happens again, there might be some extra time made available. We will talk about that again. He also asked about foreign affairs and the post Gulf War situation. I have outlined my position on that.
Senator Jackman referred to a debate on education.
On a point of order, I referred to Northern Ireland as well.
My apologies, the Senator did refer to Northern Ireland. I have indicated what will happen on the issue of education.
Senator McMahon referred to long sittings. The reality is that it was the Senator's side of the House that asked for long sittings. We have so much business to discuss that it is necessary now to sit for the extra two hours on Wednesdays.
Why not sit an extra day?
That is another story. Senator Murphy asked about the Environmental Protection Agency and Committee Stage of the Bill setting up the agency. Senator Hourigan asked about health and I have dealt with that query.
Order of Business agreed to.