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Seanad Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 7 Jun 1995

Vol. 143 No. 15

Freedom of Information Bill, 1995: Second Stage.

Question proposed: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

The Freedom of Information Bill, 1995, is intended, by me and my party group, to address a real need which has long been recognised by all political parties. Ireland's system of public administration ranks among the most secretive and centralised to be found anywhere in the developed world. With secrecy and bureaucracy comes a loss of confidence on the part of individual citizens who lose faith in the system that serves them.

The Bill I am presenting is an attempt to restore the confidence of citizens through measures which would improve a fundamental civil right. The term "fundamental civil right" is not exaggerated in this context. As it stands, people's access to information which is held in public institutions is seen very much as a privilege, and it is that perception which breeds public suspicion and which is probably responsible for a good deal of the cynicism that exists in this State.

The central tenet of the Bill is to make access to all information in public administration a right. When the light of public scrutiny is shone into the darkest recesses of public administration it is my belief that it will show up much that is good. The citizen will be able to view those parts of the system which function capably and which would serve him or her well.

Equally, it is my belief that it will illuminate many practices which are occasionally slipshod and sometimes ineffective. In this case it will give us all the chance, for the first time, to take effective remedial action so that the rights of individual citizens can be vindicated and their entitlements always assured.

It has been said that Ireland's public administration system protects its most commonplace file as if it contained the secret of eternal youth, a formula which must at all times be protected from vulgar public gaze. Less fancifully, as far back as 1969, the report of the Public Service Organisation Review Group, the Devlin report, made the serious point that Ireland's public administration — and in particular the central administration — is secretive, operating behind a veil of anonymity and, accordingly, is far removed from the very public that it is meant to serve.

There is a gulf between public administration and the citizen. This Bill will effectively bridge the gap between the administrator and those whom the administrator is intended to serve. The modern bureaucratic state, by its very nature, generates a mountain of information on individual citizens, public projects, operations, schemes and future policies, yet the vast bulk of this information is denied to the citizen.

There cannot be a single public representative in this House or in this country who has not received daily requests in their clinics and advice centres for more and better information on any one of a host of issues that affects the lives of the citizen daily. There cannot be a public representative who has failed to come to the conclusion that the inability to access this information is leading to a real credibility gap between ordinary men and women and their administrators.

In a democratic state, where the citizen is seen as sovereign, the free access of every citizen to information is, in my view, a fundamental issue.

A free society has nothing whatsoever to fear from freedom of information but a society which allows its public administration to be conducted with an air of suspicion, where concealment is the first order of the day, cannot escape the inevitable cynicism of its citizens. Over all the years in the history of State, cynicism has grown up because there is a gulf between the citizen and the State. It is an axiomatic truth that the more information the citizen has, the better she or he will make an informed decision. Our public administration has functioned for too long on the presumption that our citizens are not capable of making those informed decisions and I, like, I am sure all Members of this House, feel that this is not acceptable. This Bill aims at changing all of that. Ireland is not some socialist Orwellian state where information is the prerogative of some elite: this is a democracy, where freedom and information must be the right of all. In any developed country, information is power.

Only by allowing access to information to all will power begin to be equally distributed in our society and only by giving a distribution of information can we empower the citizens to more adequately look after their individual affairs. Two broad approaches can be adopted in this matter. One approach is to establish an information bureaucracy within the State machine — and this has been done in many countries — to handle the citizens's requests for information. The second approach is less complex. It simply provides that all information is made available on demand, on a statutory basis, to the citizen, with the minimum of exceptions; exceptions only required for the security of State or to protect the rights of a named individual.

The second approach of simply liberalising access to all information is the one which is adopted in this Bill. It is, in a sense, a far more radical approach than putting in place a structured bureaucracy. It avoids the propensity to censorship which would exist within any bureaucratic structure. No matter how one structures an information bureaucracy, the reality and the experience is that it becomes secretive in itself. The approach, as proposed in this Bill, does not require any costly staffing structures. It also ensures that information is provided to the citizen on a value-free basis and not subject to any spin to protect the political powers that be at a particular time. It is important that any information system that is put in place interposes the minimum of regulation and the minimum of structure between the citizen and the information that the citizen is seeking to establish.

I want to turn to the Bill itself and to explain some of the elements of the Bill. Section 1 of the Bill is self-explanatory. It outlines the central feature of the Bill: the creation of an automatic and statutory right of each and every citizen to information in the public domain. It is wide in its concept and universal in its application because, as will be seen in a few moments, the Bill is drafted in a way that will cover the bulk of the public administration.

Section 2 deals with definitions. Documents are defined in this section in the widest possible way. It is interesting to try and establish a meaning for the word "document" because information comes in so many different guises. I have tried to establish the widest possible definition; and if Members had a view to extending that definition further, I would listen. All State agencies are also included in the definitions part of this Bill and I have tied the Bill, particularly on the issue of State bodies, to a number of other pieces of legislation which provide us with the necessary scope and cover.

Section 3 of the Bill provides that all documents, including those drawn up by an institution and those submitted to an institution, are to be made available to the citizen. It is important that two way traffic in information be available to the citizen. Section 4 recognises that in certain exceptional cases access must be either denied or limited. It provides for the making of ministerial orders which, naturally, would be the subject of scrutiny by the Houses of the Oireachtas and of public debate. Again, I have taken a somewhat conservative approach here because it is important that ministerial orders can be made so that the Bill itself does not have a detrimental impact. That would never be my wish. Incidentally, the Minister to make the orders would be the Minister for Finance.

Section 5 deals with general exceptions. The second general exception in the list is the minutes of Cabinet. Again, given recent legislation and court actions, I wondered about this; but there is, within our Cabinet system of Government, an arguable case for such an exclusion and many other pieces of legislation have a similar exclusion. The first of the three general exceptions is proposals, drafts or unfinished documents. An unfinished or partially completed document, which is prepared purely for internal use, would give a misleading view if it were made accessible. The intention is that a document would be available when it is completed. Finally, I have excluded, as a general exemption, documents which are graded from time to time by the Oireachtas on a statutory basis as being confidential. We can all think of many cases of statute law where specific types of documents are excluded, either completely or partially.

I followed this section with a number of specific exceptions in section 6. The first of these is that documents which contain information on matters of significance for the security of the State, for relations with foreign powers or international organisations or for the country's defence should be excluded on a specific basis. Again, this is a commonplace practice in information legislation and is one which will probably follow in this country. There are a number of documents which are also regarded as exceptions under section 6 (1) (b) (i):

out of consideration for the proper execution of the state and local governments' financial, pay and personnel administration,

Clearly, documents on issues relating to internal negotiations, such as on a wage settlement, are something which the State would have to hold until discussions were completed. Under section 6 (1) (b) (ii), I have also made provision for exclusion of documents where public accessibility would thwart public regulation and control. One can foresee circumstances where people involved in criminal activity or activity which would be against the interests of the State or of the body of citizens would be given an unfair advantage or could thwart the State and the regulatory bodies if they were given access to information. That should be a specific exclusion.

The next exclusion is for documents which affect an individual's personal affairs. This is, of course, unless the document on the person is released with the consent of the individual. Documents provided to various State agencies, such as the Revenue Commissioners, would not generally be made available under freedom of information legislation because they could be damaging to the individual or they could be used where people wanted to pursue a prurient interest in some other person's affairs. I have excluded those, but I have inserted a provision which would allow for the exclusion to be overcome or subvented if the person involved was prepared to give the necessary permission. I have also provided for the exclusion of documents which contain information about technical devices and procedures. What is intended here is to protect patented papers and documents to avoid damaging the commercial interests of an individual.

Documents on appointments or promotions in the public service are another general body of documentation which Members will find excluded in freedom of information legislation. I have excluded it here, although there is a cogent case to be made for such documents to be made available, at least on a more limited basis, and I will be interested in the views of Senators in this regard. Examination papers and reports clearly fall into the category, given that we are in the examination season, as do documents relating to long term budgets or internal financial planning.

I have provided under section 7 of the Bill that documents which fall under section 6 shall be publicly accessible when, because of the lapse of time or for other reasons, it is obvious that the considerations which justified their exemption in the first place no longer apply. Any of the exempted documents under section 6, which because of the lapse of time are no longer sensitive, should be within the public domain.

Section 8 states:

The public institution shall decide, out of consideration for the proper conduct of public business, how a document shall be made known to the person who asked for it, and so far as possible [should] provide upon request a copy or transcript of the document.

There are practical considerations and sometimes it is not possible to lay one's hand on a file immediately. However, section 8 is basically providing that rationality and reasonableness should apply in that case.

An appeals procedure is provided for in section 9. A refusal to make a document available must be given in writing and an appeal would then lie with the Ombudsman. This is an entirely reasonable provision and it would not be an onerous extension of the remit of the Ombudsman's Office. I believe, incidentally, that, as the provision of information is part of proper administration, the Ombudsman would be the appropriate body to oversee that.

I have also provided in section 10 for permission for an individual to grant access to certain documents. Under section 11, the Minister for Finance is empowered to make detailed provisions for the implementation of the Act. The balance of the Bill is simply the normal citations.

I have kept the provisions of the Bill to a minimum as I believe that legislation should be minimal rather than copious. A Bill governing the rights which a citizen should have to information should be easily accessible, in the sense that any citizen, untutored in the fine black arts of parliamentary draftsmanship, should be able to pick up the Bill and understand such rights as she or he enjoys. I believe that this Bill has much to commend it.

I understand that the Minister of State has been working for the past two years on a freedom of information Bill and I know that she shares my enthusiasm and energy for this matter. However, it is regrettable that it has taken so long to bring forward the Government Bill. I recommend the Bill which is before the House as an honest effort to move this debate forward. If this House adopted this Bill, with amendments — we will be open to amendments from all sides — we would make history in that we would be making a piece of administrative law — which, I hope, would be endorsed by the other House — extending the rights of the citizens of this State into an area where their rights should never have been withheld.

I thank Senator Roche for his work in bringing forward this Freedom of Information Bill. As he knows, I have a deep commitment to this area and I have already undertaken very extensive work in bringing forward legislation on freedom of information here. There was a commitment in the Government programme to have my legislation before the House by Christmas. In that context, Senator Roche is doing us all a public service by initiating debate in this House on the issues surrounding freedom of information. I listened very carefully to his contribution and he made very good points in relation to the importance of information as power and opening up a new relationship between the citizen and the State.

Work on my Freedom of Information Bill is at a very advanced stage. We have completed a draft Bill which is now being studied by Departments — Senator Roche will be very familiar with the process of circulating memoranda from his days as a civil servant. We hope to put it before the Government within the next number of weeks and, at that stage, my Bill will be sent to the draftsman's office for its pristine English to be turned into legal language.

What my Bill sets out to achieve is nothing short of a transformation in the way our system of Government works, in particular, how it relates to the public. We want to transform a system which has looked inward and replace it with one which looks outward to the public which it serves, and which is accountable to the public. Freedom of information is designed to redress the balance between the citizen and the State in favour of the citizen.

The Bill which I have prepared is framed against a recognition that our democracy has matured but needs to be underpinned. As government grows more complex, it is even more important to give access to the citizen to information held by the State on individual citizens, and information in relation to the whole operations of Government, to ensure that accountability remains the cornerstone of the operations of Government. This has been recognised in other democracies and, in coming late to freedom of information in this country, we have the advantage of being able to learn from the experience of other democracies and base our legislation on best practice abroad.

In the course of preparing this freedom of information legislation, we have undertaken a major study of similar legislation in other jurisdictions. We have paid particular attention to those which, like ourselves, are based on the Westminster model of Government and the common law. However, it did not stop there as we also looked at other regimes, such as the United States and European countries including Norway, on which Senator Roche's Bill appears to be extremely closely modelled. I want to tell the Members that, with their agreement, I will be recommending to the Government that this important legislation would be introduced in the Seanad.

Before commenting on the specific aspects of the Bill before us, I would like to tell the House the main lessons learned through hard experience abroad. We would be failing in our duty if we simply brought in legislation which gave us the illusion of freedom of information without paying particular attention to those features which, from experience abroad, ensure that freedom of information actually works in practice.

There are five key features of successful freedom of information legislation. The first is a purpose clause which establishes a legal presumption of openness. It is a very powerful instrument and experience abroad suggests that if it is not included in this kind of legislation, the individual trying to get information from Departments can be disadvantaged, in other words, the balance is tilted against the individual in favour of the State and we are trying to help individuals in their dealings with the State. A purpose clause puts the onus on the bureaucracy to justify why information was not released and is of particular importance in the case of appeals against a refusal to release information because it sets the ground rules for deciding on appeals.

A second important feature of well functioning freedom of information legislation is a public interest test. As Senator Roche acknowledged, there will have to be some exceptions to the general availability of information on issues such as security, relations with foreign governments and budgetary information. This is widely accepted in jurisdictions which operate freedom of information. However, it does present us with a challenge — to ensure that exemptions are not over used, or used in such a way that public confidence is undermined. That is why it is important to protect the public interest when the legislation is being framed. Experience abroad indicates that effective legislation provides for the consideration of the public interest in key exemptions. Otherwise, all information could be buried under particular exemptions and instead of opening up the system, as we are trying to do, we would end up closing the system or enabling the bureaucracy to close up the system.

The third important consideration is the definition of exemptions. Exemptions must be very carefully and clearly defined in the legislation. If they are loosely cast, they leave open the possibility of being used against the requester, or eagerly used by the public servant who is more used to withholding, rather than releasing, information.

The fourth consideration is the whole area of time limits and a prompt response. Delays in processing requests for information undermine public confidence in it. Experience abroad clearly shows the need to specify explicit deadlines before which requests must be answered, and the need to assist people in their quest for information.

Fifth, it is important that there is a powerful independent appeals mechanism in place as this is at the heart of successful freedom of information legislation. This means giving the appeals commissioner or ombudsman powers to access material, interview officials and examine information, so as to issue informed findings. Responses to appeals must be prompt and efficient. Experience abroad also tells us that an internal review mechanism is very useful. It mediates and resolves disputes between individuals and public bodies and works to prevent a build up of cases before an appeals commissioner or ombudsman.

Unfortunately, Senator Roche's Bill does not address these issues in the kind of detail which is required if we are to have a Freedom of Information Bill which actually works. We are both trying to have an information regime which transforms and revolutionises the delivery of public information and actually succeeds in opening up the system to the public which we are trying to serve. My fear is that a loosely framed Bill, such as that before us, could prevent the release of information. Its exemptions, for instance, could be widely interpreted.

We have looked carefully at how freedom of information works in jurisdictions similar to our own. In particular, it is important to take into account that we have been operating in the culture of the Official Secrets Act since the foundation of the State. It is a culture where information is kept hidden and where Government Departments and public bodies do not easily share information with the public. In the public service the Official Secrets Act has left a legacy which will take some time to overcome.

That is why we need a freedom of information Bill that is powerful, that has the type of detail necessary to make it work, that looks at the experience of countries which have freedom of information legislation which has not worked particularly well and that identifies the features of such legislation abroad which have been the key to successfully functioning information regimes. The legislation we are framing takes such considerations into account.

It is not sufficient to simply state principles and hope they will work. We need to do the homework. I share Senator Roche's frustration that such homework takes time. However, we have done that homework over the last year and we have good legislation which will shortly come before the House. The legislation in preparation will deliver what both Senator Roche and I are trying to achieve — to genuinely open up the operations of Government to the public. It is important to build in mechanisms that are flexible enough to deal with problems as they arise. That is critical to the success of legislation. We do not want the legislation to fall at the first hurdle.

It is also important to look at access to personal information concerning oneself. Ninety per cent of requests under freedom of information legislation abroad are requests for personal information. It is important to specify in some detail how that will operate. We must look at provisions analogous to those in the Data Protection Act whereby individuals can seek to correct information which public agencies may have about them on file which may be incorrect. It is important that citizens can know the rules and regulations by which their individual cases are judged. It is important — and this has been a problem with the American legislation — that individuals are given a guide to the information that is available. Otherwise they will be faced with a huge indigestible mass of information and will be unable to access it.

I share Senator Roche's concern about the American situation where a huge information bureaucracy of private consultancies has developed which broker information from the public service to individuals. Individuals are really not in a position to access that information themselves. It is important that we establish mechanisms to ensure that access to information is not a theoretical right for citizens but that it works in practice.

I am delighted that there is crossparty agreement on the need for and the value of freedom of information legislation. That is why I welcome Senator Roche raising the issue in this way. In the long term, freedom of information legislation will transform the way Departments do business and, in particular, how they deal with the public. If the legislation is effective it will mean that accountability will become a reality rather than just an aspiration.

I look forward to being before this House in the autumn to introduce the freedom of information legislation. I look forward to the debate which will take place on the issues and principles surrounding freedom of information. These are important issues and principles for the way Government works, how it interacts with the public and how our democratic system operates.

I again thank Senator Roche for his commitment to the principles underlying freedom of information. I look forward to his comments on the Government's Bill when it comes before the Seanad in the autumn.

I am delighted to have the opportunity to say a few words on freedom of information. Since the foundation of the State we have operated what I call the "oyster policy" with regard to information. Everything is clammed up and we must prise out each bit of information.

An interesting system has evolved which we on the Independent benches find most entertaining. Nowadays when teachers hear of an additional teaching appointment in a school they do not do so by way of a letter from the Department or through an official method of communication; they find out by way of a phone call from their local public representative. That tells us much about how we regulate information in this State.

Information is power; it is the gravy train of influence. The way it has been jealously guarded and carefully doled out — and this is not a reflection on any particular Government — means that the bearer of the good news is given the information in order to be such a bearer of good news and is thereby rewarded later. The trickle down effect of carefully guarded dosages of information is the reason for this legislation.

The Minister has given a most incisive and interesting contribution. I am sure she will be the first to agree that the saddest thing is that there is a need for this legislation. If Government operated in a satisfactory way this legislation should not be necessary. Not a week goes by when I am not frustrated by lack of access to information. It happens time and time again. The policy appears to be that the person who guards and who can release the information is the person with power. That applies everywhere.

I can give an example of how that system works. This week a briefing document was sent to every Member of the Oireachtas. On one page there was reference to a calculation whose conclusive figure was £20 million or £30 million. I could not figure out how that conclusion was reached. I contacted the two Departments involved and asked for the calculations which led to the conclusion that the proposal was costed at £20 million or £30 million. This was something that was in the public domain and about which the Minister had taken the trouble to brief every Member of the Oireachtas. I cannot get that information and I find that extraordinarily frustrating. I went one step further and asked them to indicate the assumptions that were made in order to make the calculations which led to the concluding figure. I still cannot get that information. That practice leads to mistrust in what the public service is about. If the public service is responding to the needs of the public and is supposed to make information available it should make such information available. There was nothing confidential about my query. It will not surprise the Minister to hear that it refers to teachers' pensions. However, it could be a different issue next week.

I also agree with the Minister's statement that 90 per cent of requests for information relate to personal information. That is another aspect of this issue. The personnel sections of the public service have files or packages of information of a personnel and personal nature for each public service employee. In most developed countries employees would have access to that information with perhaps an embargo for a period of years on certain aspects of it. Let us say, for example, that somebody applies for promotion to a particular position and fails to secure it. The basis on which the decision might have been made should be made available but it is not available. I could speak at length about this issue.

My other huge frustration is that not a month goes by but I have an argument with the personnel of one Department or another. My bottom line always is: if you do not give me the information I will simply put four questions down in the Dáil to secure the information. It will then cost the taxpayer a great deal of money, it will cost your Department a great deal of time and I will get the information at the end of the day so could I please have it now? That is disgraceful. The whole business of Dáil questions is disgraceful. I would love to be a Minister long enough to answer a question during Question Time by saying: "You can have that information by dialling 1234567, extension YZ". In that way we would save the taxpayer money. There would be greater accountability because, if the information was wrong, there would be a way to deal with it.

The appeal should not simply be about the need to access information. There is also the question of misinformation and disinformation. There is a growing need for accountability in that area. I see documentation issuing on a regular basis which goes far beyond putting a policy spin on information but is, in fact, misleading and inaccurate. Inaccurate might be a subjective term but there should be some way of establishing whether people are being misinformed through a process of disinformation. This is critically important, particularly in light of the current debate on ethics and accountability in public life.

There is an extraordinary amount to be done. I concur with every one of the issues which the Minister of State said should be included in a freedom of information Bill. I will support the Bill before us tonight until such time as the Minister of State brings forward another Bill. I agree with the issues she suggests should be in a Bill. Any Bill without them would be flawed. I hope the Minister of State will intervene in the process to ensure we can deal with those issues.

My father always held the view that there were two outstanding lacunae in the legislation of this State since its foundation: the absence of a freedom of information Act and a privacy Act. Both are equally important. It is important to guard jealously the personal details of people's lives when the public does not need to know them. Both matters could well be dealt with in the same legislation.

If the Minister of State is correct, what is lacking in Senator Roche's Bill is some method of determining whether somebody is complying with the legislation. I missed the beginning of Senator Roche's contribution and I do not know how he envisages dealing with this point. Since it would be cumbersome in the extreme to have to go to court to establish that somebody was not acting within the requirements of the legislation, it is crucially important to have a regulator or commissioner.

I look forward to the Government's legislation but we should support this legislation until we get something more comprehensive from the Minister, and the sooner we have that the better. I ask the Minister of State to let the openness, transparency and freedom of access to information, through some process of osmosis, to trickle down or move through Government and Departments so that we would have less need of this legislation. It would, indeed, be a victory to create a climate where we would have access to information without recourse to the law. It is unfortunate that legislation is required to change attitudes.

Most people have an instinctive understanding of what should be kept private. It is an issue on which many of us must make a judgment on a day to day basis. Common sense is often the best regulator in those instances. Can we move forward in line with what is being talked about here without the hackneyed use of terms such as openness and transparency?

Access to information is important and could save the time of public servants and Members of both Houses of the Oireachtas. I do not see why there should be an Adjournment debate on an extension to a school in Dingle. That information should be made available and it should be known to be available. While such information is subject to control, it is almost a political coup to say that one dragged information out of a Minister through an Adjournment matter or a question. Much of the heat would be taken out of these issues if a person could say they rang the Department and got the information. Could we move towards that?

The present Taoiseach has had two views on this matter. He has always taken the view that parliamentary questions are expensive and there should be an easier way to deal with them. I recall that, as spokesperson on Education, he put down more education questions than any Education spokesperson ever known. The joy of the current Taoiseach is that he is open to all sides of an argument.

Access to information is crucial. It is necessary to create a sense of accountability, access to and availability of information in order to understand public policy. Until the Minister of State introduces legislation, which sounds attractive and I would be happy to support, I will support the only other legislation available. Do not ask why I did not draft a better Bill myself because I have not done so. I support this Bill and I look forward to the Minister's Bill.

Acting Chairman

I would remind Senators that there is no time limit.

I apologise. I would have finished earlier had I realised there was no time limit.

I welcome the opportunity to have this debate, I thank Senator Roche for introducing this Bill and I pay tribute to the Minister of State for her commitment to the legislation on which she is working at present. As other Senators said, this is a radical and necessary change, not just to our legislation but to the culture of Irish society. The results of freedom of information legislation will be widespread and radical in terms of how it affects our attitude to public life, public bodies, Government, legislation and so on. There is definitely a them and us culture which is at best passive in the context of public bodies and public information. If it is not passive, it tends to be frustrated and sometimes angry because there is a feeling that information that should rightly be available to people is not. This legislation is long overdue in that respect.

We live in a culture where, as is specifically stated in the Official Secrets Act, unless information is specifically authorised, it should not be given. This legislation tries to turn that on its head and provide that information should be available to people unless there is a particular reason it should not be given. It is a totally different approach to information. In that context the Minister's indication that there would be a purpose clause in the legislation on which she is working is important. This purpose clause would establish a legal presumption of openness. It would be presumed that information should be available unless there are specific reasons it should not. Her emphasis on a clear list of exemptions in the legislation is essential if there is to be no ability to hide behind badly framed exemptions. It will be clear what is exempt and what should be in the public domain.

One cannot over-emphasise how this will change our approach to information. As Senator O'Toole said, information is power. By giving the public information we are enabling people to become full citizens and to play a greater role in public life. This is actually much broader than the question of freedom of information. We have had a number of debates here; for instance, we had one on the newspaper industry a couple of weeks ago and we debated the whole area of education. We debated the Green Paper on Broadcasting, which the Minister for Arts, Culture and the Gaeltacht published.

There is a whole discussion around people's right to be full citizens, to take part as of right in decision making. To do that it is necessary to have access to the kind of information that has at times been withheld from the public. In giving that information to all citizens we are giving them the right to to play a fully informed role in public debate. That goes a long way towards ensuring that we have a mature society which makes decisions on an informed basis, rather than the kind of society in which we tend to leave such decisions to others because we feel that we are not part of the decision making process, the kind of society where information is available to only a small number of people. That is not the way an informed democracy should operate.

The Minister indicated that she has been getting information on how freedom of information works in other countries. A number of different countries could be cited, including EU states like Denmark, Holland, France, Belgium, Italy, Luxembourg, Sweden and Finland. All those countries have freedom of information legislation, as do Canada, the US, Norway, Australia and New Zealand. It is appropriate that we learn how their legislation operates so that ours will be the best possible legislation and will operate in the most open way possible. In countries like Sweden, for example, the culture of freedom of information has ensured that theirs is a more participative democracy than we have had here or in Britain because of our culture of secrecy.

We have all come to expect the kind of experience Senator O'Toole described, but with this legislation we will no longer expect that. We will, I hope, react in a way that will ensure that people will use the legislation in a positive way, with positive results both for society and for the institutions that have not been used to disseminating that kind of information. Freedom of Information legislation has to benefit those institutions as well as benefiting the public.

It is probably necessary to define the scope of the legislation, to state what sort of bodies should be covered under the legislation, whether it would just be Government Departments or whether other bodies which receive public funding and which hold information that would be of interest to the public should also be included. I have a book here called Democracy Blindfolded: The case for a Freedom of Information Act, which was circulated to all Members of the Oireachtas. It suggests including all sorts of bodies such as the blood transfusion service board, universities and schools, the Office of Public Works, corporations and health boards, Bord Fáilte, the Abbey Theatre and so on. I am interested to know what the scope of the legislation will be. Not only the Government and the Civil Service but many other bodies have information about people, so I would be interested in how broad ranging the legislation should be.

The Official Secrets Act is the legislation under which information has been kept from the public. I hope that the forthcoming legislation will lessen the effect of the Official Secrets Act to some extent. I know there have to be official secrets, but I hope that the Official Secrets Act will be superseded in its spirit by the Minister's Bill. We have a culture of secrecy and anonymity which we need to replace with transparency and democratic accountability so that information is given freely to people. We should have the intention of giving the information unless there is a good reason not to. The commitment to this legislation is in the Programme for Government and it was being prepared under the last Government, which is a clear indication that all sides of the House favour such legislation.

The Minister referred to the fact that 90 per cent of information sought abroad is about personal issues. The Minister has signalled her intention not just to give people the right to find that information about themselves but also the right to make comment on that information and if necessary to amend it if they consider it to be wrong, misleading or misinformed.

The other type of information is policy information, which is generally available to Ministers and officials but which is not normally available to the public. In order to access that kind of information it is necessary to know how it is kept, what sort of information particular bodies have and what functions they perform. The public needs guidelines as to the kind of information they have and how to access it. If people do not know where to look it will be difficult for them to find out what they need to know.

References were made by Senator Roche, by the Minister and by Senator O'Toole to the need for an independent appeals system. The preferred option is some kind of information commissioner, whether it be the Ombudsman or somebody specifically appointed to this area. An independent appeals system is essential if people are to feel that they are being fairly treated. It is important that this is done properly. The Minister is consulting widely to ensure that she gets feedback from all of the interested parties as well as the public. Tonight's debate is part of that process. It is important that the legislation works and that institutions and individuals are not able to hide behind legislation which is intended to provide openness.

There is a broader aspect to all of this. I hope that young people will be taught how they can relate to public bodies while they are in school so that they know what information is available, how decisions are made and on what basis they are made. In this way people will learn to use the available information. Most of us have seen "Yes, Minister" on television. The culture parodied in that programme, where as much information as possible is kept from the public and the Minister, is the culture we want to move away from.

I was at the Bell Table arts centre in Limerick last night where two dances were presented. One was by the Dagda dance company, which is based in Limerick. The whole theme of the dance was people's frustration in dealing with bureaucracy. There was a little box on stage with an official in it. The other dancers were all dancing around this box, forming queues, trying to jump queues and trying to get the attention of the person in the box. It was a very educative experience as well as being entertaining, but at the end of the performance they turned the box with the official in it upside down so that the official could not get out.

I do not know what message was meant to be conveyed by the dance, but the message I received was that the public is becoming so frustrated with its inability to deal with bureaucracy and to get information out of the person inside the box that they eventually just turned him on his head. That is anarchy and we do not want that either. I hope that by introducing effective and well thought out freedom of information legislation we will avoid having to turn bureaucrats on their heads and that we will develop a society with a fundamentally different approach to what we inherited — a culture of keeping information from the public — and that instead we will give information unless there are clear reasons why it should not be given. I welcome the fact that we are discussing Senator Roche's Bill tonight and that the Minister is committed to introducing well thought out, wide-ranging and copperfastened legislation in this area so we will be able to develop that culture of openness.

I welcome the Minister to the House and I congratulate Senator Roche on initiating this necessary discussion tonight. Listening to the debate so far, there seems to be all party support for it. Freedom of and access to information is a basic concept. We should be able to get information whenever we want it. That is a fundamental right of anyone seeking information.

Why have we suddenly become aware that we do not have access to information? We have grown up in a society in which we have been inhibited. I suppose it is because of the way we were brought up and the fact that our Civil Service is a throw back to the ultra secretiveness of the British Civil Service. We are still learning how to open doors. We have an open education system and most young people are educated. They ask questions at an earlier age than previous generations, which did not experience such openness, which had an inferiority complex and always looked to their elders and superiors and did not dare to ask a question. This was probably a throwback to our education system where three or four decades ago people listened and took in information and did not question anything. Educationalists are now telling people to ask questions and to do research rather than to rote learn, which is also the philosophy of life today.

Freedom of and access to information should be the right of every citizen. People should not have to go to their public representative when they seek information. They should only have to make a telephone call or write a letter to get information. When citizens ask me to get information or documentation, I find a closed door. I get a gobbledegook reply — I call it a Civil Service reply — which I cannot send to the citizen because he or she would not understand it. I often got a letter from a Department which I had to read three or four times to try to get its message. Sometimes sentences continue for ten lines rather than briefly making the point in simple English. It shows that civil servants have been trained not to give information, because people will look for more. I have learned the hard way from my experiences dealing with public servants. I ask local authorities, in particular, to give simple answers.

We live in a democracy where power devolves from the people. Members are able to put down questions and to get replies in that way, or table a motion for an Adjournment debate. I do not know why we get gobbledegook replies because we can get the information anyway. It would save time and trouble if doors were opened and we could get access to information. We understand that there are areas where information cannot be given, and perhaps the legislation would highlight them. When doing research I could not get information from Departments dating back to the 1960s and 1970s. I do not know why they would not release the documentation.

I understand we have studied models from Sweden, New Zealand and Australia in this regard. We should be able to open doors. Our population is educated and should be able to assess information. We have one of the best leaving certificate programmes in the world. To say that the people would not be able to assess information and that they should be kept in their place and not given information is to say power corrupts and that people in high places control. If we open doors, that control is weakened. It reflects an inferiority complex on the part of those who do not release information. We should look at our strengths and give out information which we should be able to stand over. It would be a much healthier society if we were to do so. I hope this legislation will not be put on the long finger. This is a welcome discussion. We should open doors and move forward because we have the potential to do so.

I welcome the Minister to the House and the introduction of Senator Roche's Bill, which gives the House an opportunity to debate a matter that is fundamental to our democracy. Late converts are always welcome and I am delighted that Fianna Fáil, albeit belatedly, has recognised the need to tear apart the veil of secrecy which has in the past shrouded the workings of Government.

Over the years we have become accustomed to under the counter Government. Our Constitution contains no specific vindication of the public right to know. Successive Governments have used provisions ranging from Cabinet confidentiality to the Official Secrets Act as a pretext for denying the public access to the most innocuous information.

Central Government is not the only culprit in our culture of secrecy. Local authorities are notoriously reluctant to divulge information. This is true of environmental information in particular. EU Directive 313/90, which provides for freedom of access to environmental information, has still not been fully implemented by many local authorities. I hope that future freedom of information legislation will pay particular attention to this area.

Together with its Coalition partners, Democratic Left is committed to transparency in Government. Senator Roche will be aware that the programme for A Government of Renewal contains a number of specific commitments in this area. I understand that the work on this is already well advanced. I welcome the fact that it is to be introduced in the Seanad also. In addition, the Government is committed to reviewing and updating of the Data Protection Act, reviewing the Official Secrets Act on a regular basis and the introduction of a referendum on Cabinet confidentiality. These measures together with the freedom of information legislation will form a comprehensive package designed to vindicate the rights of the citizen and make the State more accountable to the individual.

Unfortunately, the Bill proposed by Senator Roche is extremely limited in its scope. It contains a number of proposed exemptions which, I believe, would render its provisions virtually useless. For example, the legislation would give the Minister the right to make regulations limiting accessibility as he or she sees fit which would give future Ministers a virtual licence to censor. In addition, section 8 provides that public institutions may decide how a document is to be made available and that they shall, as far as possible, provide a copy or transcript. The words "as far as possible" are a favourite legislative cop-out. I do not believe we should go down that road. If freedom of information legislation is to have any impact, its implementation must be guaranteed and regularly monitored and a comprehensive appeals procedure must be established. I welcome Senator Roche's proposal that any refusal may be appealed to the Ombudsman. However, citizens should also be entitled to full information on the reasons for an appeal being refused. There should be a charter of information rights stating the maximum time which the processing of a request can take. An independent review and appeals mechanism should be incorporated into the legislation.

Freedom of information legislation is long overdue but the hasty introduction of an ill-considered legislative measure will serve no one. I am confident that the legislation to be introduced by the Government will strike a workable balance between the rights of the individual, considerations of security and the public's right to know, which must be at the heart of any democracy.

I welcome the Minister. I compliment her on her speech. I think we have seen another good day for parliamentary democracy in the Senate. I am now becoming an enthusiast for the Seanad and its role within the parliamentary system. First, we had the Arterial Drainage Bill which produced overdue and welcome legislation from the Government. Now we have Senator Roche's Bill which, if I read the Minister's speech correctly, will have a similar effect in this area. Perhaps the Opposition voting majority can be used responsibly and to good effect. We hope that it will continue in this vein.

I do not regard Senator Roche's Bill as ill-considered or rushed. It has been very well considered given the resources available to the Senator in drafting the Bill. I welcome the Bill and support it. That is not to say that some of points made by the Minister could not be used to improve the Bill. I believe it could be improved but that is true of every piece of legislation that comes before the House, even legislation which has gone through its tortuous passage through the Lower House. Areas are frequently found where Bills can be improved and I believe this one can be improved.

The central problem is the question of exemptions. How do we define what should be exempt? We can all think of things which should be exempt. Obviously, there should be exemptions where State security is involved. Files of that nature should not be subject to public scrutiny. Senator Manning, as a historian, might find himself at a disadvantage if he could not consult the files after a period of years when they are revealed in the Library.

But which ones are not there?

We could draft the Bill in terms of knowing which files were available and which were missing. There is a question of balance. The basic problem in the system we inherited is that the balance is one which says that information should not be revealed, rather than that information should be revealed and the circumstances defined where it should not be revealed. That is the fundamental change taking place in attitudes. We now believe that society has a right to know and that that is a fundamental right. It was probably a vestige of colonialism which created the attitude that we should not know, that there was a simple peasantry which could not be trusted with valuable information which should be reserved for functionaries in Dublin Castle or the centre of colonial power.

I believe it is a vestige of colonialism and probably a vestige of totalitarianism. It was the sort of attitude which said that negroes could not be trusted to govern themselves because they did not have the required educational or mental capacity. Thankfully that sort of nonsense is gone. However, it strikes me as curious that a republic which went to great lengths to show that it was distinct from the British model, has based itself on that model in so many ways. We inherited a Civil Service and parliamentary system from Britain. I believe the parliamentary system is a good one. Nevertheless, I believe that is the origin of the system which said that information was power and should only be revealed in exceptional circumstances. The consequence of this is that it leads to a suspicion in the public mind that, always and ever, there is a conspiracy and that Departments and local authorities are trying to hide things. That is not the case. There are times when they do wish to conceal things or are not as forthcoming as they might be but the consequence of the system we have inherited is for the public to assume that there is something being done to prevent them from knowing.

As a member of a local authority I can say — Senator Ormonde was one of the people who referred to this frustration — that it is extremely frustrating to receive replies from local authorities and Government Departments which must be read and reread to discover the substance of that reply. Having done that rereading it is discovered that the objective of the reply was not to give information.

Take, for example, a sewerage system being built locally. The local authority is contacted to find out the up to date position of the process and how long the work is likely to take. One reply is received and the Department of the Environment is then contacted. Another reply is received which totally contradicts the first. I have seen replies from Departments which are totally contradictory to the replies from local authorities. The only logical conclusion to be drawn is that somebody somewhere is not telling the whole truth. I can assure the House that such fundamental contradictions do arise.

People have a right to know what is in their medical files. If, as a patient of the hospital, I have a right to know what is in my file, then I have a right as a citizen to know what is in a planning file in my local authority office or Government Department. If, as someone who has a computer, I am required to register that I have information data on the computer, I also have a right to find out what data are in Government Departments with the proviso of knowing what are the exemptions. I do not know where the line should be drawn but my feeling is that we should be as liberal as possible and that as few things as possible should be concealed.

Senator Sherlock spoke about environmental information. The Minister for the Environment recently circulated a document which showed what we are entitled to know about the environment. This is a reasonable model for other Departments and should be extended.

I am disturbed by what I describe as administrative ping-pong. This goes back to the point I was making about the relationship of local authorities to central Government. Those of us who are public representatives, particularly those of us who are members of local authorities as well as Members of Seanad Éireann, know very well what I mean by "administrative ping-pong". Information gets bounced from place to another but never seems to land anywhere. It is always in the air so that we cannot nail down what it is we are trying to find out. As Senator Ormonde said, this leads to a significant amount of frustration.

In the beef tribunal report Mr. Justice Hamilton said that if questions had been answered in the Dáil there would have been no need for the tribunal. That is a very telling point and demonstrates the need for answers to legitimate questions to be given fully and openly. I am not confident that, when we raise matters on the Adjournment or go through the expensive process of asking parliamentary questions on routine information we should have been given earlier, we always get the information. We are so limited in the cross-examination which can be conducted that, when answers are evasive and continue to be evasive, it does not lead to us finally finding out what is the information.

The Minister stated that the exemptions could be widely interpreted and I think she is correct about this. I am flexible as to where the line should be but, in my view, the balance should be in giving the information as fully as possible. She made an interesting observation at the end of her speech. Perhaps she is party to information to which I am not. She said she looks forward to Senator Roche's comments on the Government's Bill when it comes before the Seanad in the autumn. She is obviously confident that Senator Roche will return to us after his by-election campaign in Wicklow.

She has good omens.

She is obviously party to information I do not have.

It escaped Senator Roche's attention.

We would all like to find out about it.

It surprises me that it escaped Senator Roche's attention. It certainly leapt up to me from the page.

Senator Roche is in a hurry to get to Wicklow.

I support Senator Roche's Bill. I accept what the Minister says. She has been less specific than the Minister for Arts, Culture and the Gaeltacht. Deputy Higgins was as to when the legislation will come before us. This is a prudent course of action on her part. She suggested the legislation will come before the House in the autumn and I look forward to this.

I welcome the Minister. Over the last two years she has shown herself to be a good reforming Minister and not afraid to stand on the odd corn or to say the odd unpopular thing. She has been a breath of fresh air and has tackled issues which needed to be tackled and which are only now coming on to our political agenda. This has been a good debate and I welcome it.

Senator Dardis made the point, which I think the Minister will appreciate, that one of the good effects of a debate like this is that, rather than putting pressure on a Minister, it strengthens the case of a Minister who is seeking to get legislation through Cabinet more quickly than might normally be the case. The fact that there is all party agreement on the principle and need for this legislation will strengthen the Minister's hand and indicates the extent to which the political culture of this society has changed over a comparatively short time.

Senator Dardis made the point that, in my historical research, I may find that files are missing and this is the case. Files which do not make it into the National Archives can be of great interest. Over the years I have gone to the archives at the beginning of the new year to look at the new batch of files. One of the great games is to guess which files have been kept back; the files which are kept back are always far more interesting than those which get through. In fairness to the State and the people who work in the National Archives, the vast majority of files come through and are available.

Reading old Dáil debates, a person would be struck by the extent of the secrecy culture in our society. Over 30, 40 or 50 years Ministers from all parties went out of their way to give as little information as possible at Question Time. Frequently answers were given in the negative and no supplementary questions were allowed. Replies such as "The matter will be dealt with in due course" were given. When it was asked what period of time was "in due course" the reply was "as soon as possible". When it was asked when is "as soon as possible" the reply was "in due course". Looking at the old parliamentary records, it is extraordinary to see how little insistence Members made on their rights to know. It was almost as if the secrecy culture was accepted.

This culture permeated all aspects of Irish life such as education, as Senator O'Toole pointed out, the church, health and hospitals. It affected people's rights to know throughout the entire system, even to the extent that the so-called Government Information Bureau was there almost to prevent information being given. It was not until Mr. Muiris MacConghaíl became head of the Government Information Services in 1973 that a real attempt was made to put on a professional basis the dissemination of information to the media and the wider public.

This was also true of journalists and our journalist culture. I have often heard of journalists in these Houses who, in the earliest days of the State, were legends in their lifetimes. It was often said that they died with information in their heads which they never committed to paper. They became the confidants of politicians because they listened and did not speak or write. This may not have been all bad. We may have gone a little too far the other way today. Senator O'Toole spoke about not only a right to information but a right to privacy, and there are issues here which must be balanced.

It is difficult to bring in legislation before society is ready for it. To have introduced this legislation five or ten years ago would have been too soon because society would not have been able to accept it naturally. The Minister, as she outlined this evening, seems to have a grasp of what society wants and will be able to absorb and take at present. This is why I look forward very much to the continuing debate on the Bill.

What is important on Second Stage is the general welcome which has been given to the Bill and the support the Minister has. Where this Bill goes from here is a matter for the House. The Minister has pointed out certain deficiencies in Senator Roche's Bill. I would agree from what I have studied of these deficiencies that the Bill to a certain extent — and Senator Roche admits this — has been largely borrowed from the Norwegian experience. Perhaps on Committee Stage we might be able to have the deficiencies ironed out. I suspect it needs a more fundamental and radical overhaul. To a great extent authorship and ownership are not what matters. What matters is that the principles the Bill seeks to express are fully debated in both Houses of the Oireachtas.

The Minister has given a commitment that she will recommend to the Government that her Bill be introduced in this House. I know that if she recommends this to the Government, it will agree and the Bill will be introduced here as soon as it is ready. This evening we have got off to a good start. We have had a discussion which I hope will be taken further when we resume the Second Stage debate on Senator Roche's Bill. For the information of Members who were not here at the beginning, although no date has been fixed for the continuation of this debate, it will not conclude this evening, by agreement. This is to suit Senator Roche.

It was a good move.

It suits Senator Manning also.

There may be more votes in Kilmacanogue than here. In any event there will be no vote this evening. The continuation of Second Stage is to be agreed and I suspect it may not be for a couple of weeks. If the Minister is right, it will continue; if she is wrong, the Bill may have to find a new sponsor. Be that as it may, I am delighted it has brought the subject into the open. This has been a positive and good debate, passionate in ways, and it augurs well for the legislation the Minister will put on our Statute Book before long.

I will be brief because I wish to share my time with Senator Lanigan.

There is no time limit, Senator, so you do not have to share time.

I compliment Senator Roche for bringing forward the Freedom of Information Bill. It is important legislation and the Government must accept it. The Minister's reply indicates moves to make information available without interfering with the system in place at present. I agree with that, but I have had experience of obtaining information from various Departments and local authorities. I can understand that certain information from the Judiciary and the Garda on the security of the State should not be readily available.

As Senator Manning said, if a person makes an application to any Department of State, he will be told someone is looking into the matter. Over the years I have heard complaints from constituents about agricultural and other issues. When I made representations to the Department I would be told the matter was under scrutiny, was being examined, was on file, or was being investigated. As an elected representative on a county council and in the Oireachtas, I felt I should be entitled to look at the file.

A number of years ago in my county, Kerry, the practice was that if a planning application or other file was submitted, a councillor could see it to find out who the objectors were or who was interfering with the file. The councillor did this in a discreet way. This suddenly changed to a Civil Service system, whereby the bureaucracy within the local authorities kept the information to itself. The only way elected representatives could obtain information was through a motion in a county council or the Oireachtas or a reply from a Minister.

The right to information is important for citizens. It should go further; if a person is refused a loan by a bank or other institution and a file has been put in place by another party, the individual should have the right to look at it so he can reply and redeem his name.

This is an interesting Bill and a worthwhile debate. The Minister will have to examine it because it goes to greater depth than most people would expect; it covers all the institutions and structures of this country. I compliment Senator Roche for bringing it to the House.

I will listen with interest to what Government Members say about the right to information. For years they have sought it and now it is within their power to give it. Will they give information to citizens who are refused social welfare allowances, housing allocations or other funds for which they may justifiably apply?

These are the important aspects of the right to information. A citizen may have to ask someone like Senator McGowan to inquire of a section of a local authority why he will not be given a reconstruction loan or a disability grant. At times the Senator may not be able to get the information. We have been elected by the people to represent them and we should be entitled to be given information for them.

This should happen not only in local authorities but in other State institutions and banks. It should not happen within the Garda because certain information on the security of the State must be held back. However, if a citizen has entitlements under the Constitution or otherwise, he should be entitled to see these files. We will watch the Minister closely on this matter because it is important not only to us but to all citizens.

Like other Senators, I welcome the introduction of this Bill to the House. I am glad that through a discussion of freedom of information the issue of suppression of information has been brought before a public forum, because it has beset this country, among others, for many years. It is easier to get information from a local authority than a Department. Perhaps this has something to do with the fact that in the past civil servants thought that if they gave out too much information they might lose their jobs, or that the Ministers for whom they were working might know too much and, therefore, might upstage them.

Freedom of information is a fundamental right, but it also brings responsibilities. In the age of high technology, we cannot allow hackers to get into our semi-State or private organisations. If we have freedom of information we must ensure that hackers of any description will not be able to access information which they should not have. This applies to our private as well as our public lives. No one could envisage the day when information about every individual in the State would be open to scrutiny. That is the danger when we talk about freedom of information.

As regards the excesses which occurred in eastern Europe and the former Soviet Union, information was disseminated by people working for the state and this was one of the reasons for the fall of the former monolithic single party states of eastern Europe.

A clear definitive line must be drawn between public and private information in this Bill, or in one which I hope the Government will introduce in the near future. When the Minister introduces her Freedom of Information Bill — if this Bill is not accepted, although I hope it will be — there must be a clear definition between the dissemination of information which is useful to the public and freedom of information on private matters between people or public institutions, including banks, as was mentioned earlier.

I cannot understand why we only find out what is in a Bill, which has been talked about for months, when we get our post on the morning that the Bill is going through the House or when it is hinted that it might be introduced in a week's time. This makes it difficult for any Member of the House to analyse the Bill. One must then work from the Minister's speech or the explanatory memorandum, which are not as easy to follow as they should be. We should be told about what will be included in legislation.

The Minister said that the draft Bill will be sent to the draftsman's office to be turned into legal language — in other words, make certain that the public will not know what it contains, but that the legal profession will. The inference is that the public is stupid and does not understand English, but lawyers do. They will make hay from the modalities of language which are of no importance to ordinary people. Language is supposed to give people the opportunity to learn about things. Legal language is nonsense. Language would be simple and understood if parliamentary draftsmen did not exist.

A draftswoman would make it more simple.

If parliamentary draftsmen lost their jobs, Bills would be easy to read and they would possibly withstand the scrutiny of lawyers or judges, because it would be the language of the day and not the modalities of language which legal people use. We should speak in plain English rather than legalese.

The Minister mentioned five main areas where problems have arisen. She said that the purpose clause "puts the onus on the bureaucracy to justify why information was not released". The onus should not be on the bureaucracy, but on the Minister and the Government. Bureaucrats produce the language in the Bill, but the Government should produce the legalities. The onus should not be put on the bureaucracy unless the Minister considers herself a part of it. If that is so, she is not taking into account the difference between what the bureaucrats want, what the Government wants and what the people want in legislation.

Public interest means different things to different people and trying to define it in a Bill leaves it open to challenge. I am not sure how one can deal with the public interest to ensure that exemptions are not overused or used in such a way that public confidence is undermined. Public confidence in what and undermined in what way? If I or the public require information on the drafting of legislation in order to determine where the Government is going, one cannot say it is not in the public interest to give out such information. If discussions are taking place on a Bill, it is in the public interest that every piece of information required by the public should be available to it.

I agree that there must be exemptions for national security — we must be extremely careful in this area — and that these must be clearly defined. We must also define national security. National security in Russia has produced the most repressive groups of people. In America the Central Intelligence Agency decided to eliminate Governments in the public interest. It did so much against the rights of the person that it is difficult to think what is or is not in the public interest in terms of security. The public has a right to know the Government's responsibilities to it. It is extremely difficult to determine if this is being adhered to. If the exemptions are loosely cast they leave out the possibility of being used against the requester, or by the public servant who is more used to withholding information.

This is a broad area and the problem is how to define it. Indeed, I am not sure if exemptions should be in place at all. This does not mean that people should not be able to discuss the pros and cons of various aspects of decisions that are being made. In addition, if somebody came up with an idea contrary to the opinions of the majority, it could be used against the person making it. In view of this, the exemptions must be clearly and carefully defined in the legislation, yet it is virtually impossible in a Bill of this kind to do so in a way which would give the public the freedom of access to the thinking behind legislation while at the same time giving protection to those drafting legislation or rules and to those who propose contrary ideas without having such ideas brought into the public forum where others could be badly hurt.

Areas such as the prompt response and the appeals mechanism can be worked out very easily. A prompt response system would have prevented the previous Government from falling and perhaps could have avoided the Government's present difficulties. Within a family, business or any other group, prompt response is a courtesy that should be extended and should not have to be a legislative requirement. Those who do not give a prompt response to a request act extremely discourteously and against their own interest. As recent events have illustrated, such actions are against the democratic process and created the problems which led to the fall of a Government. In addition, the extreme embarrassment of the Government arose because a prompt response did not materialise because of the self-interest and arrogance of certain people in a certain office. This arrogance dictates against democracy, the public interest and the wishes of elected Members.

The Minister said that, unfortunately, Senator Roche's Bill does not address the matters outlined in her five points. There are other points that could be addressed in a different manner. Nevertheless the Bill presented by Senator Roche would give the public access to information and, as far as possible, to those who need it. His Bill contains protection for the State — perhaps overprotection — and protection for the individual.

We cannot go far enough. Why should there be official secrets legislation? What have we to hide? We are not going to invade Russia in the morning and if it decides to invade us it will do so, whether we have official secrets legislation or not. The Bill addresses problems which have been in existence for many years in a cogent and specific way. It is facetious to suggest that it is the Norwegian Bill or the Finnish Bill.

It is the Norwegian Bill. I have it here.

It would not be the first Bill presented to the House that was copied from other legislation. If it was good enough for the Norwegians, it could be good enough for us. Hopefully the Minister's Bill will include the same provisions and will be enacted. I ask her to consider the excellent terms of this Bill when drafting her legislation and to ensure that her Bill will protect the individual as far as possible and not allow for information to be given about private individuals in their private capacity. This is the only danger emanating from any freedom of information legislation because other information should be in the public domain. There is no reason Ministers should know more about what is going on than a backbencher or somebody who has an interest in legislation.

Debate adjourned.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

When is it proposed to sit again?

Tomorrow at 10.30 a.m.

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