Léim ar aghaidh chuig an bpríomhábhar
Gnáthamharc

Seanad Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 13 Nov 1996

Vol. 149 No. 6

Food Safety: Statements.

It is difficult to think of a subject that has more direct relevance to every member of the public than the safety of the food they eat. It is, therefore, understandable that anything which endangers the safety of their food or which interferes with their confidence in and enjoyment of their food must be taken seriously.

My Department has, from its inception, recognised its responsibility in this area and based its regulations on the basic concept that only food fit for human consumption should be placed on the market for sale to consumers. This philosophy of consumer protection continues to guide the Department and the eight health boards who enforce the various regulations. I am also conscious of the role a supply of good, safe food plays in the overall health of the population. My Department invests heavily in promoting the importance of a good, balanced diet. It does so from a well grounded recognition that the achievement of a balanced diet, together with other lifestyle issues, is one of the most significant aspects of our preventive health care strategy. Food safety, in its widest sense, is, therefore, first and foremost a public health issue.

I have no doubt that there is a considerable degree of confusion among consumers about food and related issues. This is a reflection of unease about many modern day production and processing practices. The BSE crisis has highlighted these concerns in a very dramatic way. There is also an ongoing level of concern about many of the chemicals used throughout the food chain, from the fertilisers used to promote growth to the preservatives used to prolong the shelf life of products.

Many of us share consumers' concerns, but it is important to point out that, for the most part, food is safer now than at any time in history. The standards of hygiene and general control applied to, for example, our water supply are greater than at any time in the past. This is also true of the vast majority of food production and processing establishments. However, the consumer is sceptical and we must recognise that this scepticism is, in some instances, well founded. We must deal with it in a number of ways. In the first instance, we must ensure that our law and regulations on food are kept up to date and, more importantly, enforced properly and effectively. Equally, it is critical to consumers' confidence that they are satisfied about the effectiveness of the controls. It is clearly not enough to enforce the controls; we must be seen to do so.

When I say "we", I do not mean just the authorities answerable to the Department of Health, or other Departments. It must be clearly stated that everyone involved in the production and processing of food has a responsibility in this regard. I include in that farmers and fishermen, manufacturers, distributors, retailers and caterers and any other party with responsibility for the handling of food. Apart from the fact that it is in their interest to observe the highest standards, they have a clear duty and responsibility to discharge honourably their role in the protection of the public's health.

I drew attention earlier to the need for a well balanced view about the current state of food safety. I also wish to emphasise that I am satisfied that the great majority of producers and processors and others involved in the industry meet their responsibilities. I am clear about the different criteria to be satisfied when considering food safety. I indicated that the public health aspects take top priority but more general concerns about consumer protection and confidence are also considered as major issues. Many aspects of these criteria are inter-related and this is also true when considering the economic and financial importance of the issue, especially for people in Ireland.

We are blessed with an environment that is still among the cleanest in Europe. This, together with the natural advantages conferred on us by climate and soil, make Ireland one of the most favoured places in Europe for the production of clean, safe food. As a nation, it would be unforgivable if we failed to take full advantage of these natural assets and it would be madness in the extreme if, for some ill-conceived idea of short sighted gain, we were to endanger the opportunities nature and years of hard work by all involved have provided.

Our food industry is, without doubt, one of our great natural assets. It is the responsibility of Government and industry to ensure we maximise the benefits and do nothing to endanger its potential. It is against this background that the Government, in March this year, instituted a comprehensive review of food safety. The review was carried out by an interdepartmental group of senior officials. It focused on the control regimes involved and made many useful observations and recommendations. It confirmed that high standards apply in almost all cases and that this is verified by probing reviews and analysis conducted not only by the EU but also by authorities in major markets, such as Japan and the USA.

In many instances, Ireland is among few European states whose beef and other products are allowed access to those rigorously controlled markets. We can draw considerable comfort and satisfaction from that, but we cannot be complacent. The Government recognised its obligations to the consumers of our food, as well as the long-term value and potential of our food industry, particularly the importance of retaining public confidence in it, and this is why it accepted the recommendations of the review group.

The group recommended the reorganisation of controls for certain specific products to ensure a clearer line of authority. This will ensure better, more efficient controls in those areas. Most importantly, the group recommended that a new body should be established which, in the first instance, could satisfy itself on the basis of full scale audits about the manner and extent of the control regimes operated by the various official agencies and, secondly, which could communicate that information to consumers. As a result, Members will be aware of the Government's decision to establish the Food Safety Board of Ireland.

The Minister for Health expects to introduce legislation early in 1997 for the establishment of the board but at this stage I would like to set out for Members some important and essential aspects of the board and its remit. It will be established on the basis of its own primary legislation. The House will appreciate that this represents the strongest possible commitment by the Government to the question of food safety. The board will come under the aegis of the Minister for Health, thereby placing it firmly in the public health area but it will be given the maximum degree of independence possible in its operation. That is vitally important and will add credibility and authority to its pronouncements.

It will have a wide and comprehensive range of legal powers. It will, for example, be able to establish standards for the hygiene and safety of food in areas where none currently exist, thereby ensuring that safety standards are not compromised by outdated legislation. It will have all the powers necessary for the conduct of its audits of other agencies, including powers to enter premises, seize goods, see and, where necessary, seize records. It will be given powers to prosecute agencies which are not discharging their obligations and it will also have powers to prosecute operators or outlets failing to comply with legal standards.

The board will also be required to publish reports of its audits. I consider this to be of central importance and when taken together with the degree of independence it will have and the range of powers available to it, I am satisfied its reports will quickly become major and authoritative statements on the status of Irish food. It is also my view that regardless of any other organisational or structural changes undertaken now or in the future in the food control regime in Ireland, the board as envisaged will serve an essential, long-term function as an independent and powerful assessor of our food safety standards. It is no longer sufficient that the regulators should assess themselves, we need an independent and credible body to provide the reassurance demanded by our consumers.

I am convinced the establishment of the new board represents a radical and innovative step in the development of our food controls and, to underline the Government's commitment to this subject, the Minister for Health has already established an interim board. It has already met and is engaged in drawing up work plans. I look forward to this interim board coming forward with ideas and suggestions which, I hope, we will be able to incorporate into the new legislation. I am confident we have emerged from recent difficulties with a better understanding of the need for total transparency in relation to food safety and the new board will be a strong and powerful vehicle to deliver it.

I welcome the opportunity to speak on this important matter. The BSE scare has done enormous damage to small farmers, particularly in County Donegal where they depend on cattle for their livelihoods. While I do not want to be political, the Government has not done enough to convince the consumer about food safety. It is not good enough for people to say beef is safe. The Minister will agree that seeing the British Prime Minister, John Major, on television eating a slice of beef will not convince the consumer. The consumption of beef has reached an all time low and while nobody is responsible for this, we have not done enough to resolve the problem.

I come from farming stock and I know from talking to beef producers what needs to be done. Before we convince the consumer it is safe to eat beef, we will have to remove cows from the food chain. This cost of doing so will be more than offset by restored consumer confidence in the beef industry. Cows are dosed for mastitis and injected at least six times a year during their average ten year life span. If the Government has the courage to take all cows out of the food chain, it will do much to restore confidence among those who buy beef.

My children have refused to eat beef until drastic measures are taken. However, we are only tinkering with the problem. We complain about the Russians and others who refuse to eat our beef. However, those who buy beef are entitled to be selective. I ask the Minister to take a positive approach to this problem. Although I do not have the full answer, we will only make progress when we take cows out of the food chain and compensate farmers for so doing.

I welcome the establishment of the Food Safety Board, but I have some reservations. I am sceptical because it will only cover food production in this country which comprises a small part of food on sale. I listened to my colleague, Senator Quinn, give a detailed account of the way his company inspects the production of food products on sale in his supermarkets and I compliment him on that. If the company is not satisfied with a product, it will not continue to purchase it. That is admirable.

Fruit, including grapes used to make wine, and vegetables are sprayed with pesticides. How can the Food Safety Board guarantee the safety of food produced in Italy or another country? People may say this should be dealt with at European level. However, it will be difficult to implement the objectives of this new board. How will we deal with a container of chickens which comes across the Border or from the UK or Europe? Where will the inspection take place? This new food board will be only partially successful. On this side of the Border I see the containers of food lining up at Dundalk and elsewhere. Any of the ferries leaving tonight will be loaded with 30 or 40 heavy vehicles. How is it proposed to police and monitor food production all over Europe and further afield? I have yet to be convinced, as has the consumer. This is a crucial time, especially given that we are trying to contribute to the confidence of the consumer. The Bill's intentions are admirable but I am concerned at its prospects for success. The Minister of State should take into consideration that he is dealing with a public that is very hard to convince.

This Bill does not go far enough. There should have been linkage and European involvement. All Europe is involved in the BSE crisis. Why did we not broaden our scope and tell Europe to get its act together as this affects all of us?

I welcome the Minister of State to the House. I too welcome the establishment of the Food Safety Board of Ireland. I do not speak as one who has any experience of agriculture but on behalf of the consumer, and the Food Safety Board is concerned with the consumer. As a strong agricultural country, we rely heavily on food exports and on employment in the producing and the processing sectors of the agricultural business. Such exports are worth 80 per cent our GNP. The industry is a massive one in this country and that is why consumer confidence at home and abroad is so important.

The Food Safety Board is being established on the basis that the existing regulatory systems in the Departments of Health, Agriculture, Food and Forestry and Environment were inadequate and inefficient. The board will have a double-edged impact. Its creation as a policy agency will force all statutory bodies to improve standards of control for fear of investigation, and standard tests and investigation will address the specific problems.

The board will have powers to close food processing businesses that do not reach the required standards, and also substandard food can be seized and destroyed and fines can be imposed. It will have powers to investigate what the Department of Agriculture, Food and Forestry, and especially veterinary officials, should be doing in meat plants. Its officials can seek records and if they do not receive the required co-operation they will then have power to requisition records they are not given freely.

The board will be set up on a statutory basis when new legislation is introduced later this year. This Bill will ensure that it has powers to draw up binding hygiene and safety standards for any food sector or product. No such standard currently exists in EU and national law. The board's staff would then be given full powers of enforcement including the rights to enter premises, to seize and destroy contaminated foods and to seize records. It would also have powers of prosecution. In the majority of cases it is unlikely that prosecution will take place. Instead, the board would have the authority to publish all reports of its audits, as the Minister of State has explained, and it is expected that this would ensure compliance by all parties. The publication of regular comprehensive reports without the necessity to receive permission from the Minister will be seen as central to the board's work. If an adverse finding is being made against any agency, they can be shown the findings before publication and advised to make public comment on them.

The challenges that face the new board are truly enormous. It will be charged with responsibility for ensuring the maximum achievable standards of food quality for the home and export market. The consumer and exporter will be critical and demanding. There is a crisis of confidence among consumers about agriculture and about the food we eat. Perhaps it is unfair to blame farmers, although some at least are responsible. We all want cheap food and many of us ignore the chemical and commercial shortcuts which were taken along the way. Ecological and environmental concerns often took second place through silent consensus. This has to come to an end now and the board must insist on that.

It is unfair to blame all farmers but some must take responsibility for the situation we now find ourselves in. It is difficult to understand how cattle can now develop BSE when the feeding of bonemeal was prohibited since 1990. Some of these cattle would have been born since then. It would appear that some farmers are insisting on feeding their cattle with contaminated bonemeal.

Second, the consumer has been shocked to see farmers in court recently charged with injecting their cattle with the illegal growth promoter clenbuterol or angel dust. Any farmer who participates in this illegal practice does not deserve to be allowed to farm any longer and should be prohibited from farming altogether. Court fines and imprisonment are insufficient punishment for that illegal activity. We also have recently read with concern the Consumers' Association report on the use of antibiotics in pigs.

Finally, we now have a situation where a Garda investigation has taken place in at least three areas in the country where farmers are alleged to have contaminated their herds with BSE so as to make it worthwhile for them to claim generous compensation from the State on having their herds culled.

It would be unfortunate if the board was to confine its attention to the food processing industry alone. The feedstuffs with chemicals, antibiotics and pesticides used in the production of food should be carefully monitored and regulated. If the board is to police food safety and effectively, it must have the capacity to enforce standards on the use of these chemicals. It must ensure that these chemicals are only available to the general public by way of licence and prescription.

If there is a logic in setting up this board, it is that it will be totally independent of the vested interests which have dominated farming and food for the past 50 years. The mentality that allows the farming lobby to insist that more of their people should be on An Bord Bia has to be resisted because it is not in the national interest or the farmers' interest.

Selecting a board to generate public confidence was an important first step and the Minister has succeeded in achieving this with the personnel that have been appointed to the board under the chairmanship of Dr. Daniel O'Hare. I welcome Dr. O'Hare to the House. The board must be seen by the consumer as being totally independent and I believe the composition of the new board has achieved this.

For the first time farmers and farm producers are not directly represented on the food advisory board. The Director of Consumer Affairs, Mr. William Fagan, only agreed to be a member of the board if it was genuinely independent and had a strong consumer representation. He is quoted as saying "This is genuinely a board which is independent of the food industry." It is in the interest of producers that the board is independent of them since it has to be seen by the consumer to be separate from the food industry. Mr. Fagan also agreed to join the board on the condition that its members would be involved in the drafting of legislation to put it on a statutory basis, and I concur with his views.

The food industry has a great deal to be proud of in this country but the BSE crisis and other irregularities have highlighted the consumer's awareness and anxieties and have imposed new demands to which there must be a response. The present controversies and upheavals have the potential to do enormous good in unifying producers, Government and food processors. The food advisory board will play an important part in helping to achieve this. I wish the members of the board every success in carrying out their duties and functions.

I wish to share my time with Senator O'Toole.

Is that agreed? Agreed.

I welcome the setting up of the Food Safety Board. It is about time consumers had some say and control over the quality of food that they buy. I compliment, in particular, the Consumer Association of Ireland on its efforts in the past to expose the unfortunate episodes which have occurred with food in this country. The Minister has been extremely lucky with the worthy people he has to serve on the board under the chairmanship of Dr. O'Hare and I hope they will be allowed to co-opt any professionals they need should they require more expertise in this area.

However, it would be much better if the legislation and regulations which exist were enforced. For example, the dispute with the environmental health officers is nearly a year old and has not been settled. They are in the front line in maintaining proper standards of hygiene in the handling of food on behalf of the public. These officers refuse to implement any legislation which has been introduced since 1981 until the dispute is settled. Environmental health officers inspect retail outlets to ensure they are in compliance with the food hygiene regulations, which were introduced in 1950 but which were greatly amended in 1989. The public has little awareness of these regulations and does not realise that there is a lack of enforcement. The main aspiration is to trace meat back to farms with infected animals so that confidence can be restored in the beef trade, but these officers have to enforce such traceability.

The food labelling legislation introduced by the Department of Industry and Commerce but enforced by the officers on an agency basis is not being monitored either, nor is the food composition legislation. Unscrupulous producers could have a field day and the public is unaware that it is unprotected. The officers are also in charge of monitoring the recent legislation on food stalls. During the summer there were many festivals and stalls went uninspected. While there are many reputable mobile canteens, there are also substandard operations and many of these went back on the road again when it was realised that they would not be inspected.

There is discussion about the high level of antibiotics in food at present and I am sure the Minister realises that even the sampling of food for microbiological analysis has been greatly reduced. It occurs in Dublin and Cork only because centres were in existence there before 1981. Similarly the training of staff in how to deal with food hygienically in outlets is being carried out solely in Dublin because there was an establishment training people there before 1981. The environmental health officers have been responsible in the investigation of food poisoning. Technically, there has been a halt in these investigations, with only emergency cover in place; but the officers realise that it is a serious problem and that there are many hazards in the modern production of food if techniques are not properly implemented. For example, it is particularly important that the reheating of food is done scrupulously. As a gesture of goodwill to the public, officers are investigating all reported cases of food poisoning.

Regulations are due to be introduced here to coincide with those in Europe. They are hazard analysis critical point regulations and are the keynote to food safety heading into the next century. This dispute must be settled as it has gone on for too long. The regulations must be enforced by the Minister's Department.

Another problem is the involvement of so many Departments in the regulation of food safety. For example, there was a great problem in the past with shellfish. The Department of Health regulated the sale of shellfish here, but the Department of Marine regulated export sales. That was solved during the summer so that Parisians are entitled to the same standard of healthcare regarding their mussels as we are, but a problem still remains. During the summer neurotoxins which cause paralysis were produced in areas of the south. They are far more serious than the toxins produced by shellfish, which cause diarrhoea. The Department was not in complete control because the Department of the Marine still has control of large scale producers. That situation needs to be clarified.

There is great confusion regarding water also. The Environmental Protection Agency has produced a report on water quality in Ireland between 1991 and 1995. It pointed out that there was an upward trend in water pollution here through animal manure and artificial fertilisers. While I do not want to suggest that the safety of drinking water is badly affected, the quality of water has deteriorated by 5 per cent and its taste and odour are seriously affected in some areas. This is due mainly to agriculture and better sewage facilities have been put in. The over application of inorganic phosphorous is serious. Section 2.25 of this report mentions a recent Irish/UK study which says that the recommended application rates here are two to three times those in England and Wales of the same crop and conditions. Why is that? Soils no longer deficient in phosphorous are being fertilised annually. The saving of £25 million a year could be made if attention was paid to it and the use of fertiliser more intelligently applied. Overgrazing of sheep has to be addressed. In section 2.30 it is recommended that alternative schemes to headage payments must be urgently introduced and that effective interdepartmental and inter-institutional channels of communication need to be established.

The same applies to consumer concerns regarding pesticides and antibiotics. An organochloride pesticide called lindane is being more widely used than ever. It has not been proved to be carcinogenic but it remains in the soil and the food chain. I received a letter from the Minister for Agriculture, Food and Forestry in January 1995 in which he said that the samples of food analysed for pesticides' residue showed they were below EU directives. Should they exist? Should antibiotic residues be in our food? How important are they in the development of multiple resistant antibiotics in this country? The serious effects of pesticides are often not recognised until decades after their use and our clean, green image will depend on reducing pesticide, antibiotic and additive use to an absolute minimum if they cannot be completely excluded. Let us hope statements are no longer heard such as "no scientific report to date has conclusively proved any adverse effect on human life." That implies we need to wait for a body count.

There is a lack of balance in the application of the regulations. In one sense they are overly stringent and in another they are far too lax. To put in practical terms some of the things which Senator Henry said, I find it disgusting to see ice being made in pubs with ordinary water. I find it more disgusting to see unwrapped mince in fancy restaurants which has been handled by 20, 30 or 100 people whose fingers carry, all sorts of germs. I have asked restaurant owners on many occasions how they can have any idea of service and quality and have unwrapped mince in restaurants where a person pays as much as £20, £30, £40 or £50 per meal? There is a lack of understanding and people need to be educated about hygiene. That is just an example of the practicalities and I do not have time to develop that point.

We passed an abattoirs Bill some years ago. In terms of what the Minister is trying to achieve, that is, the ability to trace beef back to the farm from which it came, that Bill did more damage than any farmer to date. Prior to that Bill, the local butcher bought an animal, slaughtered it in his own slaughter house and sold it across the counter as a quality product which he could guarantee. Nowadays, a butcher in Dingle, County Kerry, might buy meat from a place 100 miles away. He cannot guarantee the quality of the product. This is the reality. We do not need scientific evidence as the Minister has only to talk to people who sell meat in butcher shops and they will tell him that the problem is people do not know what they are eating. People do not want to stop eating beef, it is just that they have no confidence in it because they do not know from where it is coming and, as a result, they do not know what it contains. If people who know those who rear the animal, slaughter and sell it, they will be able to say that the meat is clean as the animal never left such and such a farm. That will restore consumer confidence. I ask the Minister to seriously consider amending the Abattoirs Act. It is overly stringent and regressive in many areas.

The same applies to finding a balance with regard to hygiene. For instance, most meat factories are washed down with pressure hoses. The idea of somebody using water from the ordinary supply on hot, freshly killed beef is anathema. When I learned about butchering at a very young age, one cleaned it down without using water. We heard what Senator Henry said about the contents of water. Freshly killed meat is cleaned with water which may contain pesticides, and that might be the least of what it contains. We need to take care in that regard.

We have put too much pressure on vegetable outlets. I am not sure what my colleague, Senator Quinn, will say about this but every time I go to the south of France I am amazed at the quality of vegetables which Superquinn or any other store in Ireland would not accept because they would not comply with the stringent regulations with regard to shape, size, etc.. Those of us who are lucky enough to live in rural areas can get the best quality vegetables even though they are rejected by stores because they are the wrong size, etc. People take photographs of vegetable displays in towns in Provence, France, but such vegetables would not be allowed onto the shelves of local Irish shops because they do not comply with the European grading system to which we are slaves. The rest of Europe concentrates on hygiene rather than shape.

The price of beef in Ireland at present, as the Minister knows, is approximately 50 per cent higher than the world price. Ireland is selling overpriced beef into intervention. There are people using growth promoters to produce bigger animals and more meat than we want. It is unnecessary and there is no reason to reward them. The subsidy should recognise that the industry is losing 8,000 or 9,000 farmers per year. We should be protecting farmers rather than their produce. Giving a subsidy for every animal means the big operator is rewarded and more meat is produced than is required. If we move towards the world price of beef, the use of growth promoters or hormone implants would no longer be commercially viable. Therefore, the animals produced would be normal in size, they would go through a normal selling process and farmers would be better off at the end of the day.

The price of milk in Ireland at present is twice the world price. People are buying milk quotas at prices which are more or less equal to the world price. They pay 45p or 50p per gallon to buy quotas in order to sell them for 90p. That is completely wrong and it is creating the whole problem in agriculture.

I hope Dr. O'Hare will home in on the issue of additives. When I am buying a product, I would like to be able to read the ingredients, contents and additives in a way which makes sense. I would like to know what is E 100 and E 120, etc., what is and is not dangerous and, as Senator Henry said, what contains only a little or a great deal of poison or toxins.

Organic farming needs to be developed and supported, and resources should be given to that area. There is a market for free range poultry and organic produce. However, the industry must be regulated because people will lose faith in it if it is discovered they are buying something which was not produced organically.

I thank Senator Henry for sharing her time with me. I wish the new food watchdog and Dr. O'Hare, in particular, the best of luck and I congratulate the Minister on beginning this process. I hope it is successful.

My party welcomes the proposed establishment of the Food Safety Board of Ireland. For far too long the food industry has been dominated by the notion that the producer is king and that has permeated the minds of farmers, the representative farming organisations and possibly some sections of the Department of Agriculture, Food and Forestry. Unfortunately, it has some basis in fact.

At a wider level, the Common Agricultural Policy has in part protected many agricultural producers from the rigours of market forces faced by industrial workers and others. When the history of our times is eventually written, I will not be surprised to see a chapter on the triumph of the market. In the western world, during the 1980s, absolutist ideas on the value of the market and its benefits held sway. Thankfully, these ideas are not widely held at present by sensible people, except for the Progressive Democrats, but the collapse of the Soviet bloc and its command based economies has left the market in an ascendant position.

The consumer is the king in a market economy. Consumers judge the worth of an array of products before them and make decisions accordingly. In the food area, that array of products is wider than ever before. If there is the slightest doubt about the quality of one product, there are many others from which consumers can choose.

I worked as a butcher for approximately eight years at a time when the buzz word was "hygiene". People were only concerned about whether one washed one's hands and wore a clean coat and apron. One did not wear a hat or gloves and the only disease prevalent at the time was TB. Sickness did not originate from food because the producers were very responsible. Today, however, there is much discussion about preservatives, antibiotics, chemicals, injections, environmental health officers and various restrictions. The situation has worsened and we must ask whether people are becoming careless and greedy and if a deterioration in the environment has brought about the current difficulties.

Since the British Government's declaration in March that there may be a link between BSE and the human disease, CJD, the consumer has taken over. We may argue that the British acted irresponsibly and we may resent the extent to which outside interests link our economy with theirs. However, regardless of the way this issue is considered, the results are clear. Consumption of and demand for beef have decreased considerably. Senator O'Toole made the point that the reduction in the price of beef has not been passed on to the consumer. The European Union's capacity to intervene is diminishing. There will come a time, sooner rather than later, when Europe's voters will refuse to intervene to purchase products no one wants to buy. Reform of CAP and moves toward the globalisation of world trade will only compound the problem.

Ireland is relatively free of BSE, but not as free as it should be. Clearly there have been breaches of regulation relating to the use of bone meal in the feeding of ruminants. Nonetheless the country is relatively free of the disease. Irish beef is of good quality and we insist on better food standards than many of our European counterparts. However, this is of no consequence in the context of a general scare about a product. For example, news reports in Russia led to a bizarre ban on produce from three Irish counties. Producers' groups, particularly the IFA, do not understand this. The IFA, aided and abetted by Fianna Fáil, is flailing about seeking political targets and those responsible for the problems faced by its members. These are complex problems and they require solutions which will address long established difficulties in the industry.

Everyone welcomes the establishment of the Food Safety Board. This is a step toward ensuring that Irish food is not only of high quality but is seen to be so, which is an important distinction. The board should have been established many years ago. Had it been, the difficulties we face today might not be as pronounced.

Since the food crisis developed members of Fianna Fáil have made many statements, but this is as much to hide their culpability as it is to highlight the real issues. Despite Fianna Fáil's holding the Agriculture portfolio for seven years, no food board of any kind was established. It is no surprise that many of the issues about which that party is currently excited arise solely from its failures in Government.

I am concerned about the atmosphere in which the board will be instituted. I do not doubt that it is the Government's intention to establish a vigorous, active and independent board; the appointment of Danny O'Hare, President of Dublin City University, is a testament to that fact. However, I sense a perception in some quarters that the establishment of this food authority is a short-term response to a short-term problem. If it is to be successful, the new board must be given the capacity to set and enforce standards in food safety; it must be seen to be independent of vested interests and existing groups; it must have the capacity and resources to conduct research; it must be staffed by people committed to its purpose not by those associated with the existing status quo and it must set out to reassure the customer of the quality of its approved produce. In short, it must win the respect of the public at large.

I believe the board can succeed in another important task, namely, bring about a change in the mindset of Irish food producers. This is a critical issue and time is not on our side. Many consumers have already turned their backs on certain food products and they are becoming more discerning.

I welcome the Government's decision. I wish the new members of the board and its chairman well in the difficult job they face. If used correctly, the board marks the first step in changing our attitude to the food industry. It is an opportunity we cannot afford to miss. Food, as an industry, is too important to the country and is a potential vehicle for further economic growth but, the industry could also decline. The choice is ours and we must make it.

In March 1996, the Government decided to undertake a review of the food and safety systems in operation in Ireland. The group charged with carrying out the review was chaired by Mr. John Hurley, Secretary of the Department of Finance, and the remaining members comprised senior officials from the Departments of Health, Agriculture, Food and Forestry, the Marine, the Environment, Enterprise and Employment and Tourism and Trade. Not one person from outside the Civil Service was involved. The group finalised its report in July 1996. Is it not amazing that this report was never published? Instead, the Government decided to establish an interim board and issued a press release to that effect.

I cannot find any legislation which allows this board to operate. Perhaps that is the reason it is called an "interim board". The press release stated that the board was established on foot of "a Government decision". In view of the urgency of the situation, the Government stated that the board should be established on an interim basis. It did not state the nature of the urgency and one can only speculate in this regard. We can only assume that the food industry is in a very serious state a propos quality and safety.

There are now major questions regarding the safety of one of our most trusted industries. This is unhelpful, coming as it does, on the heels of problems relating to BSE. If the Government was concerned about BSE when it referred to the need for urgency, it should have stated as much. If not, I suggest the Minister of State explain the findings and publish the report because the present situation is very damaging and a negative image is being transmitted to foreign customers. I need not mention that it is also undermining the confidence of Irish consumers.

To date, the only available information relating to the report was issued in the form of a press release from the Department of Health entitled "The Establishment of a Food Safety Board in Ireland". I quote:

The board will be established by new, primary legislation to be introduced in early 1997. The primary function of the board is its audit and supervisory role in relation to other food control agencies.

It is stated that the board have a relatively modest staff complement. It is patently obvious that the board is merely intended to police the operations of other control agencies, which adds further to the level of bureaucracy. One would have expected thought to have been given to co-ordinating the various bodies with a view to creating a one-stop-shop. This would have made sense.

The press release also provided the first indication that the Government intended to be stingy when it came to staff. Is this the right attitude to adopt when a sector of one of our most respected and prized industries has lost the confidence of a substantial number of people and we are playing on the blind with imports?

The Government must set up an agency, properly staffed with suitably qualified people, to regulate and to enforce the law. This would help to recoup some of the confidence lost and give the industry back the high degree of confidence and credibility for which our food was renowned. It would make sense to set up a board with total responsibility for the control of food quality, similar to the Food and Drug Administration in the US. The FDA regulates the food and drug industry in the US.

Fianna Fáil has proposed the establishment of a food quality authority which would have the power to control the quality of food, its processing and its importation. Such an agency should have absolute control over the quality of food produced here and food which is imported. There is little point in coming down heavily on indigenous products if there is no control over imports. One can take a random sample of goods from a ship but if we are to control the quality of food we must demand the same standards of imported products.

The Department of Health's press release does not refer to fruit and vegetables. I imagine about 90 per cent of our fruit is imported. A recent survey in England showed that over half of the fruit and vegetables taken on a sample basis from supermarket shelves and tested contained levels of pesticides at least 14 times above the World Health Organisation's standards for residue levels of pesticides.

The information I have seen apropos this new body makes no reference to the provision of quality control for imported fruit and vegetables. Have checks been made to establish the level of pesticides in imported products? Have there been checks on the level of animal fats in imported confectionery or on the levels of other animal byproducts in imported products such as sauces or pharmaceutical raw materials? Some pesticides are carcinogenic. The focus at present is on BSE and on levels of antibiotics and hormones in meat and milk. However, we must also focus on fruit and vegetables, particularly on imports. The new body to be established should have statutory powers to control the production, processing and storage of these products up to the point of sale. The body must also be empowered to demand the same standards of imported products because they pose the greatest threat.

Why did the Government not publish the Hurley report? Why did it deem it necessary to take immediate action? Why is no reference made to imported products? One can only speculate on these matters. Unless a single agency is established with statutory powers of regulation and enforcement and to demonstrate to the public that home produced and imported foods are to the highest standard, we are on the slippery slope to losing the credibility of our greatest asset.

Democratic Left has long campaigned for a separation of producer and consumer interests. The level of abuse which has become evident in intensive food production represents a triumph for the producers lobby over consumer interests. The new body must be driven by the primacy of food safety and quality and the need for that safety to be determined by independent scientific and veterinary criteria rather than producers' interests or farming politics.

I represent an area largely dependent economically on farming. The overwhelming majority of farmers are struggling to make an honest and decent living from the land, often in the face of many obstacles not of their own making, in particular the recent Russian beef ban. The efforts of the majority of farmers have been undermined by the activities of tiny rogue elements of large farmers who seek to profit at the expense of consumers and taxpayers.

The use of angel dust was the norm for the last five years. It was well known that it was being used and it was sold openly at marts. Such abuse has led to the current crisis. The establishment of this new body will have a large part to play in rectifying matters and creating the necessary awareness. In north and east Cork most farmers share the outrage of consumers when they learn of the use of illegal growth promoters or that BSE was deliberately introduced to herds in order to claim compensation.

A person in whose opinion I would have confidence said recently that the headage payment led to a lot of these difficulties. Some farmers were able to organise themselves to dispose of the herds and get the value for them and also get the headage payments. It is an outrageous system which has led to abuses. The producer, not the product, should be subsidised. I welcome the IFA's recent decision to get tough with rogue elements within its ranks. It will go some way to enhancing consumer confidence in the food industry.

Foodstuffs on sale in supermarkets usually have an indication of a "best before" date. I do not think all retailers or wholesalers take the food off the shelves if it has not been sold before the date indicated. This is an issue which needs to be looked at because from time to time one hears complaints and perhaps the retailers would not have looked at the label on the package.

Ireland's green image is only a perception at the moment. It is only a matter of time before it is recognised, but all of this might change attitudes. Water and air pollution in this country are very serious as a result of the failure to enforce laws. Producers' organisations have a central role to play not only in regulating the conduct of their members but in educating them about legislative and scientific changes. I urge these organisations to ensure that their members are fully informed of the implications of the Animal Remedies Regulations, 1996. Therein lies the legislation which will compel people and create an awareness about food safety. The establishment of the food safety board will also have that effect.

May I share my time with Senator Dardis. Ten minutes for myself and five minutes for the Senator?

Acting Chairman

Is that agreed? Agreed.

I welcome the Minister and Dr. Danny O'Hare, the chairman of the interim board, who is in the Public Gallery. The fact that he has shown the interest to be here gives us all confidence in the interest that will be taken by this board.

I want to make one fundamental point — the key to credibility in food safety is independence. Unless the new Food Safety Board is totally independent, and is seen to be totally independent, it will not be credible to customers. In particular, it will not be credible to customers outside Ireland. These are the most important customers for our food industry and if the Food Safety Board is not credible we might as well not have it.

If the board is not credible then it is a waste of State money and of the time of Dr O'Hare and his interim board. We as legislators have a major responsibility and our top priority should be to make sure that we create a Food Safety Board whose credibility is beyond question because its independence is unimpeachable.

I am encouraged by what has happened so far. I listened to Senator Haughey and I am aware of his concerns. I am all too aware that we could be here discussing plans for a Food Safety Board that was under the aegis of the Department of Agriculture, Food and Forestry. However, the board is being created by the Department of Health and that is a major advance on what could have been.

We saw an instance of what could have been when An Bord Bia was being set up. I was a member of the expert group that set up that board and I argued strongly that it should be under the aegis of any Department other than the Department of Agriculture, Food and Forestry. It was an argument which I did not win and I put in a minority report. I understand that there has been something of a turf war fought in recent weeks regarding the Food Safety Board. I am pleased to see that it is not under the aegis of the Department of Agriculture, Food and Forestry. This is fortunate for the future of the Irish food industry. When I speak of the Department, there is a marvellous job being done and to be done, but there are certain things that should not be under its aegis — the safety of food is one of those.

It is ironic that some within the food industry do not yet realise the crucial importance of keeping the Food Safety Board fully independent. When the membership of the interim board was announced there were protests that the board was unbalanced because it did not include food industry representatives. Not only is it right to exclude the industry; it is vital to do so. It is in the industry's best interests to be excluded and to have a totally independent body so that they, the industry, can point to it and say "These people have nothing to do with us and they say that our food is O.K.". If the food industry is able to say that then they and the board will have credibility.

The Food Safety Board of Ireland has to earn a reputation such that its imprimatur will fully satisfy a potential buyer of our food in Germany, Russia, the Middle East — wherever we seek to sell our food products. I was in America this year and met Michel De Roy, the head of a large company which operates supermarkets and hypermarkets in France. As I joined him at the Food Marketing Institute he said “We do not sell Irish beef anymore”. I immediately reacted by saying that we are not British. He replied “I know, but the only sign we can put on our supermarket shelves is “French beef only sold here”. It is not strong enough to say we do not sell British beef”. That is a reminder of our task. We need to enable him to say “Irish beef sold here” and be sure that the public will react positively. That is the challenge which the Food Safety Board has to face.

The opening assumption of a typical overseas buyer will be that any Irish board is unlikely to be fully open and impartial about Irish food. A further assumption would be that the board is an agency of Government and, therefore, operates under the umbrella of Government policy. It would certainly not be an opening assumption of overseas buyers that this board will act exclusively in their interests or, indeed, in their interests at all. The challenge facing Dr O'Hare and his colleagues is this — the Food Safety Board must overturn those assumptions and put contrary assumptions in their place.

A first question is: how can such a board create the necessary credibility overseas? My initial suggestion is that the membership of the board should include, as a statutory requirement, a number of people who are not Irish, who do not live in Ireland and who have no vested interests in Ireland nor any previous connection with it. Ideally they should be people of international standing in a relevant field or whose independence is transparently unimpeachable. Appointing such people would be a first for the Irish public service but that should not stop us doing it. Neither should the expense of bringing such people on board, because their potential contribution is priceless. With this in mind the interim board should demand the power to recommend appointments to its own membership. It is likely to be far better at international head-hunting than the Department of Health.

The independence of a board is not only determined by who you put on it but also by the security of their tenure. If individual members of the board, or the board collectively, can be removed at the whim of a Government Minister, then the perceived independence of that board is lessened. That happened with RTÉ some years ago when the Government abolished the board. This board should have the same standing as judges when they are appointed.

Similar considerations should apply to reporting. Semi-State bodies report to their sponsoring Minister, who, along with his Department, directs the overall policy of the organisation. We do not want that to happen with this board. I am pleased that the Minister said in his speech that "The board will also be required to publish reports of its audits". I hope that means they publish themselves rather than have the Department publish the reports for them. I looked for the RTÉ report of 1995 a week ago. It had not at that stage been published. When I asked the RTÉ Authority I learned that it completed its annual reports for 1995 in April and handed it to their Department which has been sitting on it since. That is an example of why I want this board to have the right to publish. It is the public to whom the Food Safety Board should report and it should report directly, not through the medium of Government or Parliament.

This brings me to a second essential element in building credibility for the Food Safety Board. It must be seen to be serving the customer and no one else. It is vital that we work on the premise that the board has no responsibility whatever to the Irish food industry or the Irish economy. That takes some thinking. Its responsibility is solely to the customer. If it serves the customer properly it will do a world of good for the Irish food industry and the economy. However, it can only serve the customer properly by ignoring any wider consideration. We have often heard the phrase "the customer is always right". That was never so true as in this case. If we allow the customer to have doubts, like that man in France, he or she will no longer be a customer.

Every week I meet a group of customers from our supermarkets. I was jolted by the power of customers, particularly in recent months. I asked them whether they have changed their habits since March and I was struck by the number who said they have but if they had confidence or trust in beef, they would continue to buy it. A number have changed their attitudes and are concerned. It is the job of this House to ensure the Food Safety Board can change minds and has the tools to do the job. It is not the job of the board to balance conflicting interests or find a compromise between them. It should have one master alone, the customer. Our task over the coming months is to create a statutory structure which will reflect that. We have taken the first steps in that direction.

I thank Senator Quinn for sharing his time. I regret that more time was not afforded to that important issue and that we are dealing with in Government Private Members' Time.

Acting Chairman

The debate is not ending tonight.

I realise it may not necessarily end tonight but the Order Paper contains many items of long standing which must be resumed and that suggests we may wait some time before returning to this matter. I regret that a substantive motion was not put forward as there is widespread agreement on the necessity for the board and a motion would not have caused particular difficulty for the Government.

I agree strongly with Senator Sherlock about our green image, on which I speak at regular intervals. It is our idea of how Europeans should perceive us rather than their actual perception. In most cases they do not even know we exist, let alone know about our green image. That is part of the marketing task which confronts An Bord Bia and it tackles it well. I also welcome the attendance at this debate of the chairman of the Food Safety Board, which indicates a hands-on interest on his part, but I wish we had far more time to discuss this matter.

In creating the Food Safety Board and placing it under the Department of Health, the Government is implicitly accepting that the Department of Agriculture, Food and Forestry is not the appropriate body to carry out the task of creating credibility in the mind of the consumer. It is understandable that this is the case because we have had an intervention mentality for so long. The task of the Department of Agriculture, Food and Forestry was thought to be to send the Minister to Brussels to get money, to distribute that money and to set up the framework for schemes. There are more people in that Department looking after the operation of the schemes than there are people concerned about how beef is sold, the safety of beef and other food products.

The creation of the board had as much to do with deflecting political and consumer criticism of the Government's handling of the BSE affair as with anything else. It was significant that the matter first came to public attention when the Minister, Deputy Barrett, mentioned it on a radio show. It was announced, on a day when the Minister for Agriculture, Food and Forestry was in Brussels, by the Minister for Health. A press conference arranged for that afternoon was cancelled, probably on the basis that the Minister for Agriculture, Food and Forestry was not too pleased about it. I only speculate, of course, having no knowledge of these things.

The Senator is wrong in his speculation.

If we are determined to overcome the crisis of confidence which exists in the industry the new board needs a staff of more than 30 in a glitzy office in Baggot Street. People who come from Russia should not be brought into a nice building and told everything is all right.

I agree with virtually everything Senator Quinn said about the independence of the board because it must be able to restore credibility and confidence in our food. I am a farmer and I hope the food and grain I produce is up to the standard required so that consumers can use it with confidence. However, it is useless for An Bord Bia to spend millions of pounds unless consumers believe that what they buy is of the quality and standard required.

At last we accept there is a health aspect to the matter, as is shown by bringing this board within the ambit of the Department of Health. It would be preferable if the board took under its control the inspectorate of the Department of Agriculture, Food and Forestry and if it had the capacity to go into any plant or farm to see that everything was in order. That would establish credibility, which is crucial in this matter. We were told there were administrative difficulties about adopting an integrated approach with, for example, Department of Agriculture, Food and Forestry food and veterinary inspectors. This industry deserves more than talk about administrative difficulties, irrespective of their size. We are talking about our most significant export industry and we better get this issue right because we are on a slippery slope at present. There is a belief that one should not publish facts, for example, we should not talk about antibiotics in pork, people using angel dust or BSE, but that is to deceive ourselves. It is heaping delusion upon delusion to think that by hiding these facts we will not create more difficulty when they are revealed.

I went to a function attended by both the Ministers for Health and Agriculture, Food and Forestry.

That is a good sign.

It is. The function was to launch the Agricultural Awareness Trust and a scheme called "Agri Awareness" which is intended to promote a better understanding of the vital economic, social, cultural and environmental role agriculture has played and will continue to play in Ireland's future towards the millennium. It will conduct an educational programme for school children and agricultural awareness initiatives on computer. It is a healthy development. I commend the work of this body and hope it is successful.

I welcome Dr. O'Hare, the chairman of the new Food Safety Board, to the House. There was no need to share time on this item because we were given an open debate and everyone who wishes to speak has every chance to do so. I am surprised that some Members have shared time because a debate such as this should get due time.

That is absolutely right — it should not be in Private Members' Time.

We are using Fine Gael Private Members' Time.

Put that in your pipe and smoke it.

We are giving everyone the opportunity to say what he or she wants. I agree with Senator Quinn that the independence of the board is vital for the credibility of the food sector. I am a producer and I will put the farmers' viewpoint in my contribution because most other areas have been covered. I have no problem with the fact that there are neither producer nor processor representatives on the board. During the debate on An Bord Bia, Senator Quinn said he would rather see that board separated from the Department of Agriculture, Food and Forestry. I strongly disagreed with him at that time but I agree that this board is essential and that its independence is vital for its credibility.

No effort is too great to ensure that the consumer has safe, quality food at all times and in all places. By doing this, the Government is not only giving assurance to the consumer but protecting the long-term interest of producers. I urge all producers to remember that they are living in an increasingly consumer oriented world, with huge demands for consistent quality. Anything less will be totally unacceptable in the future. From a moral as well as a commercial point of view, it is essential that all producers adhere to the highest possible standards. It is not enough to have a watchdog for the Irish producer. We need even greater vigilance in relation to imported goods from sometimes untraceable sources.

The milk industry is a shining example to the rest of the food industry in the way it ensures that no undesirable content exists in milk, which is used as a raw material for many products. Milk undergoes a scrutiny test on a daily basis and every producer is guaranteed at least four tests per month on his or her milk in the local creameries. The EU is continuously bringing up the standards by introducing new regulations. The latest one is the sematis cell count. Creameries can refuse to take milk from farmers if they do not achieve the necessary results as and from 1 January 1997. Any creamery or processor can refuse to accept from any producer's milk if his or her standards are not up to that level. No farmer would risk that sanction.

Quality food requires quality farming. If we are to improve or maintain standards, high capital investments are required. Franz Fischler, the present Agriculture Commissioner, wants to reduce the price of agricultural produce by approximately 15 per cent over the next four or five years. This is a dangerous approach, from the farmers', the processors' and the consumers' point of view.

I wish to give a few figures in relation to the retail price of agricultural produce. One figure, which is easy to follow, springs to mind immediately. That is the difference between the retail price of milk and the price the producers are paid. Almost every household buys milk on a daily basis. The present retail price of a litre of milk is approximately 64p per litre. The producer receives 40 per cent of that 64p and the processor and retailer receive 60 per cent. Senator O'Toole said that prices on the world markets are 50 per cent of our prices but that is incorrect. In certain countries prices are 50 per cent of ours, but in those cases the Senator is not comparing like with like. The consumer will benefit very little from a 15 per cent reduction in price, but that reduction will have a very serious effect on the ability of the producer to produce a very high quality product in view of the capital requirements.

Prices in the beef sector are another example. The present price to the producer is around 78p per lb for meat. The consumer is paying between £1.50 and £2.50 per lb. The retail price of meat is divided between producer, processor and retailer in the same way as milk. The producer receives approximately 40 per cent of the retail price of that product while the processors and retailers receive 60 per cent. Milk must be delivered to the creamery concerned. It is the same with beef. All transport costs must be paid by the producer. That has been the situation for years. These examples give people some indication what effect a 15 per cent reduction to producers over a period of three or four years will have on the consumer.

I asked a butcher recently how much he brought down his share of the retail price of beef as the result of a 20 per cent reduction in the price to the consumer over a 12 month period. He said that he did not bring it down at all because his sales were reduced and he had to keep his profits up. The producer took his 20 per cent cut and the consumer got no benefits.

I told the Minister for Agriculture, and I will tell Commissioner Fischler, that we have to be careful. Further reductions to producers of 15 to 20 per cent over the next four to five years will have a devastating effect. As Senator Sherlock said, most of these farmers are barely managing to survive. Some of them are on very small holdings with very little profit indeed. If this profit is taken away from them their situation will be worse.

It is not enough to have a watchdog on the Irish producer; it is essential to have greater vigilance over imported goods. I draw the Minister's attention to the importation of poultry into this country. I brought this issue up during a debate here not long ago. The Irish Times published a very good article about the constitution of the Food Safety Board and its powers. What is the situation in relation to imported goods? Many vegetables are imported into this country.

I read an article in the Irish Independent of Saturday, 19 October 1996 by William Dillon about the importation of poultry and poultry products, headed “Salmonella up due to junk foreign poultry”. There are some very revealing statements in that article. I understand from this newspaper report that we import chicken from England and Germany, but that these countries accept a level of salmonella of about 1 per cent. Should we expose any consumer in this country to salmonella? The same test is carried out on our chickens and they are salmonella free. According to this report 250 imported chickens were tested and three had salmonella. A second batch was tested and four had salmonella. These reports are available in writing. There were 200 deaths from salmonella in Germany last year, but Germany accepts this level of incidence. It is clearly stated in this article that if salmonella is found in an Irish flock of hens we destroy the whole flock and that if the same standards were applied to English chicken farms, their poultry industry would be wiped out overnight.

When the board is put in place it should have the power to insist on the same standards in imported food as in home produced food. This is absolutely essential. Anything less is unacceptable to our producers. I am sure the Department of Agriculture has a copy of the newspaper article from which I took my information.

People spoke about the production of beef and milk and, to a lesser extent, pigmeat, poultry and cereals. I hope the impression will not be given that we produce bad quality food. A very small percentage of farmers produce bad quality food and their production will be stopped over a very short period by the farmer organisations and coops. I have no pity for them. They represent a very small percentage of Irish food producers.

Senator Henry spoke about antibiotics in milk. There are no antibiotics in Irish milk. They would not be allowed. I am a milk producer and I produce for the liquid market. We are tested four times a month and if the processors have the slightest suspicion that a producer is doing anything wrong, his or her milk is tested on a daily basis and he or she is stopped from supplying that milk to the processor concerned. That producer gets no chance whatsoever. I defy anybody to prove to me that antibiotics are present in any Irish milk anywhere in Ireland. It is a simple test and people can be caught very easily. We produce the highest quality milk in the world.

People spoke about beef. I know the BSE scare brought about the constitution of this board and has done untold damage to the beef industry. Beef is a very important source of iron and protein for children and women, in particular. The problem is that not enough beef is being eaten. Although there has been a very small number of BSE cases, we are sorry to see the number is increasing. We hope that will now begin to scale down. Nevertheless, I am prepared to accept that the use of meat and bonemeal before 1989 was responsible for that situation. There is no doubt that the situation will improve from here on in. The impression should not be given that a large number of herds in this country have BSE.

I accept there were some bad reports recently in relation to pigmeat. However, that was cleared up very quickly. As far as pig producers are concerned, the withdrawal period was not adhered to. The inspection of the production of pigmeat is a very simple exercise. The same applies to milk and beef. A small withdrawal period in relation to the use of small drugs such as penicillin and streptomycin would clear up the whole issue. Farmers would be well advised to ensure they comply with the regulations.

We produce very high quality cereals in this country. Cheaper cereals are imported for use in compound feeds. Such manufacturers should make far more use of our barley and, in certain cases, wheat which is unmillable. Compound feed is a very high quality product which is being cheapened by the use of groundnut and other imported cereals.

The board should have the authority to ensure that compound feed is properly labelled with the percentage of each ingredient identified. Speaking as a producer, there was a very serious situation from 1985 until 1990 when they were not labelled. Everybody knew that feed manufacturers were using meat and bonemeal but nobody was sure about the damage that would cause. All manufacturers should be compelled to ensure the percentage of every ingredient is identified on the bag. The board is the right body to ensure that is implemented because compound feed is part of the food chain. Producers feed cereals to their herds for six months of the year.

I welcome the Minister of State and the setting up of the board. I look forward to the great work it will do in the future.

I also welcome the setting up of the board but I would love to have as much confidence in it as other speakers do. During my 30 years in public life I have seen the setting up of many boards and inspectorates which were supposed to solve all our problems. However, Members know they did not do so. The setting up of this board is a reaction to a problem. That is not good because it means it will have tunnel vision.

We had the best food in Europe in the 1960s. Tourists brought home rashers, sausages, butter and eggs——

Illegally.

——because of the flavour of the Irish produce. With all our rules, regulations and inspectors we put the rural population out of egg production. When every woman in the country had 20 or 30 hens, which they fed with potatoes and meal, there was a mill in every couple of villages which crushed the oats and ground the wheat which made the wholeflour and oatmeal. That is what was fed——

There were cailíns at the crossroads too.

That was when cattle were fed naturally. When Senator Maloney was a butcher eight and ten hundredweight cattle were considered to be very heavy. In those days butchers killed more seven hundredweight cattle, which were a year and a half or two years olds. It was good quality meat. Every butcher bought meat at the local fairs and everyone knew from where the cattle came and what they had been fed. Many butchers had farms where they fed cattle for the lean period in the winter. Everyone going to town saw the butcher's cattle grazing in the field — they always seemed to have fields near a public road. There were no worries about beef at that time. There were no inspectors then but we were not bedevilled by chemists——

There were no headage payments either.

——and chemistry. We are now attacking producers. Who destroyed the food chain? Drugs of all kinds. Who invented drugs? Professionals in universities and chemists. No farmers knew about angel dust until some of the smart college boys educated them.

They soon caught on.

Farmers are quick learners, particularly where money is involved.

We then started to compensate owners of infected cattle. As we know, we have the best compensation culture in the world. I question all the BSE cases which are arising now. There was no BSE here for hundreds of years, so why do we now have a rash of it? I have a sneaking suspicion that the amount of compensation available is causing more problems than it is solving. I do not think this board will solve that problem.

We set up veterinary inspectorates and put veterinarians in every meat factory. We then set up environmental health inspectors. County councils managed to do the job with one sanitary inspector for years. When the health boards were established there were health inspectors and now there are environmental health inspectors. There are more and more inspectors, yet we have more and more problems.

As Senator D'Arcy said, farmers have to try to make money because the manufacturers get 60 per cent and the farmers get only 40 per cent. If we set up a board to monitor profits and ensure that the producers got 60 per cent, farmers would not have to try to make ends meet by using chemicals.

Will this board set up field trials to test land for chemicals? The country is awash with chemicals. One sees nothing around the country but manure which is made from chemicals. Spring wells which supplied villages for generations have been polluted by the influx of chemical fertilisers. Years ago cattle were fattened with turnips, crushed oats and barley in sheds and bedded down with straw. They produced good meat and there was plenty of farmyard manure.

One would be able to run on it oneself.

One would. As I said, we had good food then. However we destroyed it, not the farmers.

When we talk about resources we mean money and when we talk about agricultural producers we mean farmers. Farmers would do a good job if they got half a chance. For example, they saved their hay for silage pits until experts told them they could make silage anywhere in hail, rain or snow. While this gave rise to pollution for which they were blamed, who educated them to make their produce in ways that caused it?

People are eating chicken rather than beef at present.

Senator D'Arcy will not eat any more chicken.

He is correct. We are importing chickens from a country that is well known to have given them diseases. What are we doing about it? Will we wait for the outbreak of another disease? Is the Department of Agriculture, Food and Forestry providing veterinary inspections of food imports?

What is wrong with Ireland, a country that was noted for food production? The women of Ireland were the best bakers in the world, yet today cakes are imported from Europe. How many jobs could we create if, instead of such imports, we encouraged people to produce more food? Yet environmental inspectors have prevented industrious housewives from producing home-made buns, soda bread, sandwiches and tarts. The kitchen from where she works may be good enough for her family but she is not allowed sell any produce. The requirement to build new kitchens put such housewives out of business and destroyed our tourism industry. Many tourists, especially from the US, loved to buy their produce. However, inspectors ensured that housewives who baked the best bread in Europe, if not the world, were not allowed to make cakes, nor allowed to keep their daughters or sons at home to help.

We had a great country in the 1960s but we have ruined it in the past 20 years by giving drugs to animals. We now import the raw materials for meals, such as soya beans. Are any checks made on these products? Surely we should stop such imports at a time when farmers are paid to leave their land idle. We could produce meal from corn, oats, barley and wheat which would create jobs on the farm, keeping people in rural Ireland and producing a good basic ingredient to create a good, wholesome food for cattle.

We are told that the cause of today's problems are pigmeat and bonemeal. What scientists invented these? Everybody knows they are unnatural. When they were first produced the smell was terrible. Nobody seems to care. If we are concerned with good food we must ensure that animals eat good food. We are not doing this at present.

In the war years we produced plenty of good meat and fed the British Army. Our cattle were much sought after by Scottish, English and Welsh buyers. They do not want them today. Why did we destroy this market? In those days farmers could hardly write their name but they retained a credibility that was recognised and rewarded the world over.

In latter years smart people have been telling us to do things fast to save time. What are we doing with this time? Our economists tell us how to produce things economically, but at what price to our social fabric? Why are so many people on the dole and on drugs and drink? It is because they have nothing to do. Those that advise us how to do things economically do not look at the whole picture. Would it not be better to pay extra to produce meals at home using good quality beasts and producing good quality cattle?

When we killed cattle at 800 to 1,000 cwt. there was no need for antibiotics or angel dust because they came off the grass at that kind of weight. However, they were pumped with drugs and angel dust to increase their weight by a further 600 to 700 cwt. in the fastest time possible, regardless of the quality of the meat, on the basis that the bullocks would go into intervention and would not be eaten. Intervention was one of the worst things ever to be introduced to this country.

It is ridiculous to import food, the raw material for meal manufacture, poultry and confectionery. This is an agricultural country with thousands of people unemployed, yet we pay to keep them unemployed because some economists say it is cheaper to have such imports. It should not be cheaper, nor does this view take account of the whole picture.

We will never get our food back to what it should be unless and until we decide to produce cattle in the natural way from grass. We must produce them in houses, bedded with straw and proper, natural manure from the cattle recycled onto the land. We must also get away from chemical farming, which starts in the grass, goes on to the beast and to the finished product to give it longer shelf life. What are we eating? If 40 per cent of the feed the farmers get consists of chemicals, it must be 60 per cent in the case of our food.

I welcome the establishment of the new Food Safety Board. It is important to reassure the consumer, the housewife and the family of the safety and satisfaction of the food they eat. The new food board will ensure the highest standards of food safety for Irish consumers. Great care must be taken in that regard and the people appointed to the new board are excellent. I wish them and the Department of Health success in this matter.

When is it proposed to sit again?

At 10.30 a.m. tomorrow.

Barr
Roinn