Seanad Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 2 Feb 2000

Vol. 162 No. 3

Order of Business.

Mr. Cassidy

As I paid tribute to Deputy Andrews last week for the wonderful work he has done as Minister, I welcome the announcement of the appointment of Deputy Cowen as Minister for Foreign Affairs, Deputy Martin as Minister for Health and Children, Deputy Woods as Minister for Education and Children and Deputy Fahey as Minister for the Marine, a full Minister for the west of Ireland.

I congratulate our new Minister of State with responsibility for tourism, Deputy Ryan, whose father was Leader of this House and whose grandfather was a Member of this House and a Minister in several Governments, and Deputy Hanafin who has been appointed Minister of State with responsibility for health and children. This is proud moment for the father of the House, Senator Hanafin. I am delighted for the Hanafin family. Deputy Hanafin has considerable talent and ability and it is fitting that one of her first responsibilities is to preside over amending legislation today in Seanad Éireann where her father is a distinguished Member.

The Order of Business is Nos. 1, 2 and 23, motion 14: No. 1 to be taken without debate; No. 2, Irish Nationality and Citizenship Bill, 1999 – Committee Stage to resume and all Stages thereafter by agreement; item 23, motion 14 to be taken from 6 p.m. to 8 p.m. and business to resume thereafter if not previously concluded.

Mr. Ryan

Who has agreed?

Mr. Cassidy

I mean that I would like to get the agreement of the House, if possible.

Mr. R. Kiely

Senator Ryan should not get too excited.

Mr. Cassidy

This Bill was introduced before Christmas and it is of great importance. Its significance relates to Articles 1 and 2 of the Constitution. I understand that Senator Ryan and the Labour Party are not satisfied with one aspect of the Bill.

Mr. Norris

It is not only the Labour Party members who are not satisfied. Some of the rest of us have a difficulty too.

Mr. Cassidy

These difficulties could be allayed by having discussions later on.

Mr. Connor

I cannot agree to the taking of all Stages of this Bill today. The Order Paper states that the House will debate the Irish Nationality and Citizenship Bill, 1999 – Committee Stage, resuming at section 5. I presume that means exactly what it says and that Report and Final Stages will be debated at another time. We cannot agree to that item. We agree to the other items on the Order of Business.

Next week Opposition Members hope to use Private Members' time to introduce the Shannon River Council Bill. This legislation is relevant to the recent flooding in the Shannon river basin. I ask the Leader to make some Government time available so that the House can have a full and meaningful debate on this Bill.

I do not expect much opposition to this proposal from the Government side. I attended a public meeting in Athlone on 9 January which was also attended by the Minister for Public Enterprise. She clearly indicated she was in favour of what she called a national waterways authority and I take it she was speaking with the authority of her Government colleagues. I request the Leader of the House to make Government time available next week for a meaningful debate.

Mr. O'Toole

On the issue under discussion we need to know beforehand if the Leader of the House requires agreement on certain issues. I cannot agree to this on the floor of the House as some members of the group are very committed to the area in question. There are some difficulties. Perhaps we can talk it through but there is a genuine worry.

I have raised with the Leader of the House on a number of occasions the importance of dealing with industrial relations issues. As the House is aware, a new social partnership agreement has more or less been arrived at. The more difficult parts, including the pay area, have been established and agreed. I seek an early debate on the matter. It is important that the people should know that it will form the basis for future prosperity and sharing. It allows in terms of a Government commitment on important—

Mr. Costello

We will decide that.

Mr. O'Toole

Certainly the people will decide, but it is hugely important that we find out for ourselves what is in the agreement which provides a platform for the future in terms of tax improvements, salary increases, issues such as lifelong learning and a commitment to improvements in education at all levels, a sharing of wealth and a more inclusive society. It does not provide for all the matters that the social partners, including the trade union movement, would like to see included, but it is a topical issue in which every Member has an interest and which should be discussed in this House more than any other given the expertise of its Members in areas such as agriculture, education and social issues, all of which can be dealt with. I would expect a better and more focused debate here than in any other forum. While it is a compromise document and nobody is happy with all of it, I recommend it highly as the way forward.

An Cathaoirleach

The Senator has made a very good case for a debate on the matter but we cannot debate it now.

Mr. O'Toole

My colleague sitting next to me will be aware that the view of Independent Newspapers is solidly in support of the new agreement and I look forward to reading his column on Sunday.

Mr. Costello

I echo what has been said about there being no agreement on No. 2. It should have been agreed prior to the meeting of the House that all Stages would be taken today. We have indicated previously that we do not want to take all Stages of any legislation in one sitting. This presents a difficulty. The Government has tabled amendments and a degree of reflection is required. The Minister indicated that he was in no hurry to get the Bill through. What is the reason for the sudden urgency? The proper time should be made available.

I seldom disagree with Senator O'Toole on significant matters but I was not impressed by his remarks this morning.

Mr. Ross

Hear, hear.

Mr. Finneran

For different reasons.

Mr. O'Toole

I thought Senator Costello was a member of the Opposition.

Mr. Costello

I wondered if I should have made that remark once I heard Senator Ross offering support, I am sure for different reasons. We are to some extent putting the cart before the horse. Such a debate should have taken place long before the social partners got round to discussing the matter. It is a matter of considerable concern that this and the other House have no say in the negotiations that take place. We are presented with a fait accompli. Nevertheless, we should debate this matter. This deal is not by any means tied up at this point in spite of the comments made by Senator O'Toole, who has been one of the main negotiators. There are important issues, such as low pay, to be resolved and there has not been any movement whatsoever in regard to the minimum wage. That is very serious. Taxation issues also remain to be resolved.

An Cathaoirleach

I cannot allow the Senator to discuss the merits of the agreement on the Order of Business. I allowed Senator O'Toole a certain degree of latitude to make the case for a debate and I have allowed Senator Costello to outline the reasons he feels this is not the appropriate time for such a debate.

Mr. Costello

I did not say it would be inappropriate to debate the matter. I said it would have been more appropriate to discuss the agreement prior to the deal having been negotiated. I would still welcome a debate at this time to discuss the merits and demerits of the agreement. I do not believe anyone should recommend the deal to the House at this stage.

I congratulate the Ministers who were promoted and the other Deputies who were appointed as Ministers of State. Finally, as I stated last week, we should hold a debate on Northern Ireland at an early date. Northern Ireland is the issue of the day in view of the imminent publication of the de Chastelain report which will follow the publication of the Patten report and the establishment of the cross-Border bodies.

An Cathaoirleach

I have a list of ten Senators who wish to be called on the Order of Business. I ask those Senators to confine themselves to asking questions which are relevant to the Order of Business and to put them as concisely as possible to the Leader.

Mr. Ross

I appeal to the Cathaoirleach for time to reply to Senator O'Toole's speech.

An Cathaoirleach

The Senator will have an opportunity to raise any points he wishes when the debate sought by Senator O'Toole is granted.

Mr. Ross

Has permission already been granted for the debate?

An Cathaoirleach

The practice is that the Cathaoirleach allows a certain degree of latitude to the leaders of the groups on the Order of Business. As the Seanad reconvened last week for the first time after Christmas, I also allowed some latitude to other Senators but I cannot continue to do that every day. We must confine ourselves to matters which are relevant to the Order of Business.

Mr. Ross

When the Cathaoirleach grants latitude to the group leaders in future, will he bear in mind that Senator O'Toole is not our leader?

Mr. Norris

Well spoken.

Mr. O'Toole

I try so hard.

Mr. Burke

A split among the Independents.

Mr. Coogan

There must be somewhere else for these petty disputes.

Mr. Ross

Will the Leader grant Senator O'Toole's request for a debate on the pay deal?

Mr. Norris

Why?

Mr. Ross

In spite of Senator O'Toole's comments in support of the deal, it is the most inflationary pay deal agreed in Europe this year or any year. Last week we were talking about 15%, this week we are talking about 25%. How can the deal jump from 15% to 25% in one week and still be the same deal? This is an outrageous deal—

Mr. Ryan

Keeping the poor in their place.

Mr. Ross

It is an outrageous deal. It is very important that Senator O'Toole should contribute to a debate on this matter because ICTU has apparently agreed the deal, but for some reason cannot recommend it.

Mr. Ryan

Senator Ross should not point at me.

Mr. Ross

I am not aware of any deal negotiated by any group on behalf of its members in which the negotiators agree the deal but then turn to their flock and say they are neutral in respect of the deal and do not recommend it.

Mr. Finneran

That is nothing new for the Labour Party.

An Cathaoirleach

I cannot allow Senator Ross to pre-empt the debate any further.

Mr. Ross

We should ask Senator O'Toole and someone from the other side of ICTU to come into the House and explain the other side of this deal. It is important that we do not only hear one side of the debate. It should be held as soon as possible and all parties to the agreement should be invited to present their views.

Mr. Farrell

I repeat my call for a debate on the media. It was sad to see a respected RTÉ presenter having to clarify statements he made off the record to a journalist. The journalist failed to uphold his honour by printing them. Although I was tempted, I refrained from responding with the saying: "When thieves fall out honest people get their own." This is an instance of journalism dropping to a low ebb. It is time a press council was established to deal with the media and with low standards.

The relationship between the Oireachtas and RTÉ does not appear to be a good one. In view of this, the Leader should consult with the other party leaders for the purpose of inviting RTÉ to send some of its top executives to an Oireachtas committee.

An Cathaoirleach

That is not relevant to the Order of Business.

Mr. Farrell

It is relevant to ensuring good communications. RTÉ is seeking an increase in its licence fee. As a Nationalist I would hate to see standards at RTÉ continue to decline. It is important that RTÉ continues to operate.

An Cathaoirleach

The Senator will have to find another way of raising this matter.

Mr. Farrell

Perhaps we could work with RTÉ to build bridges.

Dr. Henry

I am sure Members would like to express their sympathy to the family of the APSO worker, Daphne Kilroe-Wagstaffe, who was so tragically killed in the crash off Cote d'Ivoire a few days ago. Having just visited Ugandan HIV/AIDS projects, which are run by Irish aid organisations, it is sad to reflect that we frequently under-estimate the dangers many of these Irish workers face.

Approximately a year ago the Minister for Health and Children said he would introduce emergency legislation to ensure that the inter-country adoption rules set out by the Hague Convention on Children were in line with Irish legislation. Nothing has happened in the interim and at present an agency based in America engaged in the sale of Russian children is holding meetings in this city. I have its price list before me and the cost varies, depending on whether the child is six months old, 12 months old, a toddler and so on. It is disgraceful that meetings of this kind are held here and are apparently well attended when the Adoption Board has already voiced its concern. Will the Leader organise an urgent debate on this issue? If the legislation is not ready – and it should be – perhaps the Minister would advise the House on the progress made. The present situation is untenable and will only cause distress to those involved, be they children or proposed adoptive parents.

Mrs. Jackman

I add my congratulations to the newly appointed Ministers and Ministers of State and wish them well in their new portfolios. Will the Leader arrange a debate on the recently published report on the future of Aer Rianta and the Great Southern Hotels Group?

Mr. Norris

I ask the Leader to arrange time in the near future for a debate on item No. 23, motion No. 15 on the Order Paper, in my name and in the name of Senator Costello. It states:

That Seanad Éireann urges the Government to establish a National Paid Holiday to value women's work on 1 February (St. Brigid's Day) annually, commencing 2001; to devise and implement the necessary statistical means to measure unpaid household, caring and community work.

It is important the Government indicate movement on this issue, given that an undertaking was made at the Beijing conference some years ago that it would use proper statistical means to establish the value contributed, principally by women, in these areas. This has not been completed. A preliminary survey indicates it amounts to £14 billion annually, which is a very significant sum. Perhaps this matter could be part of the discussions which Senator O'Toole is holding with the Government.

Mr. O'Toole

There is also a need to quantify the value of men's work.

Mr. Norris

It is important that this survey is implemented to ensure that the Government knows the current situation. It will not exclude men entirely. I would welcome greatly an undertaking by the Leader to have a debate on this important matter. I have had a huge response to it from members of all parties, including the two Government parties, every group on this side of the House, some former Cabinet Ministers and a very large number of ordinary decent people. I think it would be well worth examining.

Mr. Coghlan

I also wish to congratulate the Minister, Deputy Fahey, and the Ministers of State, Deputies Ryan and Hanafin. The Review of Strategic Options for the Future of Aer Rianta was circulated to Members this morning. I note it states that the Great Southern Hotels are the assets which are most obviously "non-core" and could be sold relatively quickly. I call for a debate on this matter at the earliest opportunity.

I remind the Leader that last week I thought he responded favourably to a request for a debate on the report of the Committee of Public Accounts. However, the report has not yet been circulated despite the Leader's statement that it would be available to Members on request. I know the Leader meant well in saying this, but I think something has gone wrong in this regard.

Mr. Quinn

Last week I asked the Leader if he would consider having a monthly debate on inflation as it is such an important issue. Almost every speaker on the Appropriations Act used the opportunity to discuss inflation. I believe a debate should take place, which could perhaps be aligned with an economic debate, in the first week of every month. One topic might be the pay deal which was raised by Senators O'Toole, Ross and Costello. Inflation could also be debated in the context of the euro and how it should be managed. We are facing a crisis in terms of the dangers of inflation for our economy, something which the Government, ICTU and IBEC seem to have ignored. The Seanad could be the national watchdog and we should find time for a debate on inflation in the first week of every month over the next year.

Mr. Burke

I ask the Leader to ask the Minister for Public Enterprise, Deputy O'Rourke, to come to the House to explain why it takes five and a half hours for a train to travel from Dublin to Westport, as it did last night when it broke down several times. It is no longer a question of the railway line but the locomotive engines and carriages. Those taking this service are being treated as second class citizens. It is disgraceful that a train leaving Dublin at 6 o'clock does not arrive in Westport until 11.30 p.m. The Minister should come to the House as a matter of urgency to explain why this is so. I recently travelled on the Dublin to Cork line—

An Cathaoirleach: The Senator has made the case for a debate and I cannot allow him to elaborate further.

Mr. Burke

There is an unbelievable difference in the quality of the carriages on that line. We are being treated as second class citizens.

Mr. Norris

These are the people who want to run Luas.

Mr. Burke

As a matter of urgency I ask the Minister for Public Enterprise, who lives on this route, to come to the House.

Mr. Ryan

I cannot resist saying that Senator Norris now appears to have a foot in every camp in every sense of that word.

Mr. Norris

The 1950s humour again – dear, oh dear.

An Cathaoirleach

Senator Ryan on the Order of Business.

Mr. Norris

Bring back Kenneth Williams.

Mr. Ryan

May I beg the indulgence of the Cathaoirleach for a moment? I wish to say something very simple.

Mr. Norris

No.

Mr. Ryan

The Cathaoirleach appears to be able to throw his voice, as it is now projecting from behind me. It is a matter of great regret that a new national stadium costing £250 million was announced by the leader of Fianna Fáil and not a single word of our first language is contained in its title. I think "Staid Éireann" would have sounded just as well as "Stade Francais". As I often do, I wish to remind Fianna Fáil where it came from and what it used to stand for.

What is the status of the Telecommunications (Infrastructure) Bill, 1999? Such infrastructure is more important than transport infrastructure. Whatever the reason for the inertia, it will do more damage to our economy than the appalling railways, which Senator Burke just mentioned.

Mr. Burke

The Senator is on the Dublin-Cork line.

Mr. Ryan

Only 20 carriages will be provided for the entire country in the national development plan.

I agree with Senator Jackman that a debate on the Aer Rianta report is needed urgently. It is ideologically loaded and full of contradictory advice based on a pre-arranged outcome. It is a dreadfully dangerous, sloppy analysis based essentially on ideology and not on practical com mon sense. It is a disastrous report, which is of no great credit to its authors.

There should be a debate not just on the new national agreement but on the way in which such agreements are constructed. The only people in the State who do not have a major role to play in national partnership are elected representatives. That is an extraordinary omission and it is time that the Members of both Houses said "never again". If there is partnership Government, farmers, trade unionists, business, etc. can be partners, but elected representatives, national and local, are excluded and it is a constitutional and political outrage. It is time that was changed.

Mr. O'Toole

On a point of order, the Government represents the Members of the Oireachtas at the national talks.

Mr. Ryan

It does not.

An Cathaoirleach

We cannot have a debate on this matter. We cannot pre-empt the debate which has been sought. Senator Ryan, if you have a question for the Leader on the Order of Business, please put it.

Mr. Finneran

As poor as the Opposition is, it seems to be totally divided.

An Cathaoirleach

Order, please, Senator Finneran.

Mr. Ryan

I urge the Leader not to schedule a monthly debate on inflation. If ever a Weimar image would be created, it is the notion of debating inflation every month with the implication that it would change so rapidly from month to month. That is the way to create an image of an economy in trouble. Whatever I might think of the Government, the economy is not in trouble – it is robust, strong and vigorous – and whether inflation is 2.5%, 3.5% or 4.5%, that in itself will not undermine the economy.

Mr. Finneran

Headlines.

Mr. Ryan

We should not get ourselves into such a panic about something that is not a threat. Let us have an occasional debate on the economy.

I reiterate Senator Costello's comments that it would be ridiculous to take Report Stage of the Irish Nationality and Citizenship Bill, 1999, given that the Bill, as amended in Committee, has not been printed. It is not an urgent Government Bill because it has been debated in the Dáil. Report Stage should be postponed to a later date.

Mr. Hanafin

I thank the Leader for his kind reference to me and my daughter, the Minister of State at the Departments of Health and Children, Education and Science and Justice, Equality and Law Reform. She certainly was not appointed because of anything I ever said or did. I was elected to the House in 1969 and will retire at the end of this term. I came in unnoticed and will go out the very same way.

Mr. Norris

The Senator will not.

Mr. Cassidy

The father of the House is a humble man and it is lovely that he is present. I look forward to his daughter's participation in debates in the House when legislation from the Departments to which she has been appointed comes before us.

Many Senators referred to No. 2. Committee Stage will be taken today and the remaining Stages will be taken next week. Senator Connor referred to the Shannon River Council Bill, 1998. The Whips and leaders of the various groups can discuss the requirements for additional time.

Senators O'Toole, Costello and Ross called for an urgent debate on the new pay deal and on industrial relations in general. Any fair minded person would say that the turnaround in the economy from 1987 to today was due to what was known then as the national understanding. I salute the people in office in the trade unions at that time, including Michael Mullen, and Charles Haughey, the then Taoiseach. They have given us the foundation of a sound economy which is the envy of Europe, and as a result future generations will be able to work at home and not emigrate. I intend to allocate all of Thursday of next week to discuss the pros and cons of this issue and to hear the views of Members of this House who are also members of trade unions, the farming community, employers or who work in financial institutions. I welcome the endorsement of the pact today by Senator O'Toole, one of the foremost negotiators and a person any organisation would be happy to have representing them in pay talks, union negotiations or as a Senator in Leinster House.

(Interruptions).

Mr. Ross

He is a nice fellow.

Mr. Cassidy

Members on this side of the House do not stand for a privileged panel in the Seanad. I have no intention of doing so in the future. Senator Ross can lay aside his fears because if I did so I have no doubt I would make a dint on some of the votes he gets because some of those people are my closest friends.

Mr. Ross

Is the Leader threatening me?

Mr. Cassidy

I would endorse his candidature, however, as I have always done in the past.

Mr. Ross

Please do not endorse my candidature. That is all I ask of the Leader.

An Cathaoirleach

The Leader of the House, without interruption, please.

Mr. Cassidy

One meets all on the way down. Senator Costello called for time to debate Northern Ireland. I will allow time for such a debate. Senator Farrell called for an urgent debate on the media and the setting up of a press council. We had a debate on that issue two years ago and it is one of my priorities in this session. A debate on the setting up of a press council was never more needed and nobody has anything to fear, with the exception of those who write untruths. A press council would protect everyone concerned.

I will pass on Senator Henry's views to the Minister for Health and Children. Senators Jackman, Coghlan and Ryan called for an urgent debate on the Aer Rianta report and the Great Southern Hotel Group. I intend to allow time for such a debate. Aer Rianta is one of this country's great success stories and it is a pleasure to allocate time for the House to debate it.

Senator Norris called for a debate on No. 15. I have no difficulty in allocating time to debate that motion. Senator Quinn called for a debate on inflation. I suggest that such a debate can be taken in conjunction with the debate on the pay pact next Thursday.

I remind the House, and Senators who have not yet made a contribution, that the debate on the Appropriation Bill will resume tomorrow afternoon.

I listened with interest to Senator Burke's call for the Minister for Public Enterprise to address the House. That matter is more relevant to Private Members' time, and perhaps it could be discussed in the House then.

Senator Ryan expressed his views about the proposed national stadium. I join with him in welcoming the great news that almost £300 million will be spent on a national stadium.

Mr. Ryan

That was said last year.

Mr. Cassidy

I take his point about the Irish language but every fair minded person, be they from Cork or Dublin, will agree that this is a marvellous breakthrough for athletes, swimmers and everyone who will use the national stadium. I congratulate the Taoiseach in particular and those people who will contribute £50 million to the State to help young people improve their lot. We were always taught that a fit body is a fit brain and that a fit brain gave one confidence. When one has confidence one can move mountains. The greatest gift one can give one's body is to keep it fit. I congratulate everyone concerned with this project.

Senator Ryan asked when we will take the Telecommunications (Infrastructure) Bill. When requested by Government to bring it before the House I will be pleased to put it on the Order of Business.

Order of Business agreed to.