The Order of Business is No. 1, the Fisheries (Amendment) Bill, 2000 – Order for Second Stage and Second Stage, with the contributions of spokespersons not to exceed 20 minutes and those of all other Senators not to exceed 15 minutes; No. 2, the Insurance Bill, 1999 – Committee and Remaining Stages to be taken today at 2.30 p.m.; No. 15, motion No. 31, to be taken from 6 p.m. to 8 p.m. and business to resume thereafter, if not previously concluded. Business will be interrupted from 1 p.m. to 2.30 p.m.
Order of Business.
The Order of Business is agreed. It would be nice this morning to be able to send our congratulations to the next President of the United States but I think that would be a little previous. Many of us in this House have personal experience of recounts where a fraction of a vote is the difference between victory and failure. Obviously we can empathise and sympathise with the two candidates this morning as they live through that ordeal.
On the Order of Business, I ask for an urgent debate on the report by Mr. Seán Cromien into the education system. It is a report which, in some ways, is an indictment of the education system and also contains some far-reaching and radical proposals. Those of us on this side of the House would like a debate on that report next week, if at all possible. Does the Leader have a date for the proposed debate on Northern Ireland?
I strongly support the call by Senator Manning for a discussion on the report on the Department of Education and Science. I have not read the report because it has not been made available so far but it is crucially important. We should remind ourselves that much of the time that is wasted in the Department of Education and Science is in dealing with queries from Members of the Oireachtas. That is not a reflection on Members. It is an appropriate part of public representation but it raises major questions as to the way we do our business and gain information, and the way information is made available to us. The report raises many questions about the decision making processes in the Department that have to give rise to concern to everybody, whether they be parents, teachers or decision makers at many different levels. It is crucial that we should have a debate on this report. It is not clear whether the report will be published; I am not sure if Senator Manning is aware of that. I could not get confirmation that it will be published but I look forward to it.
Every time there is a discussion on the budget or social partnership many people, including my colleague, Senator Ross, talk about the lack of consultation with Members of the Oireachtas. Every group in the country is putting forward pre-budget submissions, including teachers, trade unions and other groups, yet Members of the Oireachtas tend to sit back and let their parties do that. We have had some good debates, and one very recently, on the whole question of the economy, etc. We should have something in the nature of a pre-budget discussion in this House. Over the past few years we have had a post-budget discussion which has been very helpful, but it would be important for people to put their views on the line beforehand. I ask that this be done.
On a second related issue on public representation, I understand the Buckley report on the salaries and allowances for senior civil servants, the Judiciary and Members of the Oireachtas is currently with the Minister for Finance. Many of the hopes of Members of the Oireachtas are dependent on that report. I note the Government's proposal to extend the working hours of Members of the Oireachtas. Members will not object to this proposal but it should be debated in the context of seeking extra reward as any other group of workers would do in an efficient and open manner. We should debate this issue. Members of both Houses have nothing to hide and we should prepare the ground for making the demand. Whatever comes from the report will hardly be enough as I have never represented a group of people who were happy with the outcome of any negotiations. Unless this case is extraordinary people should be setting themselves up to work out what they will be unhappy with.
This will be different.
We have looked at the situation in Northern Ireland at various levels but there are technical issues which should be made clear to Members. We are aware of David Trimble's position and his direction to Ministers, but we are not clear on what is happening and what can happen at sub-ministerial level of the North-South bodies. It is not clear whether they can continue, whether their agendas have been set for a year or so, or whether their work comes to a halt. These and other technical issues are worth discussing so that Members can put forward views on how this process might be moved forward. People in the North are as despondent as I have seen them for many a long day.
Like Senator Manning, I had expected we would be congratulating one of the candidates in the US election and we sympathise with them on the knife-edge recount which has arisen. We can at least congratulate Hillary Clinton on her fine victory.
Hear, hear.
This is a welcome victory and we thank her and her husband for the enormous contribution they have made during their period in the White House. I hope Bill Clinton will not be lost to politics and that whoever takes over in the White House will give him a role as some kind of roving ambassador with a wide remit which allows him to use his considerable talents.
I agree with the comments of Senators Manning and O'Toole on the education system and it would be worthwhile debating this issue. I am not sure whether Seán Cromien's report is in-house or not and I am not too happy with some of the comments regarding the setting up of more agen cies and quangos on how the Department should do its work. We need a root and branch examination of how the Department focuses on policy and the structures of education rather than the approach taken by Seán Cromien. It is worth debating this issue and the sooner the better.
Will the Leader arrange a debate on the banking system? I do not call for this debate in terms of the issues we have discussed in the past such as the scandals, DIRT and so on, but in terms of the banks' decision to reduce services to the community. The major banks are withdrawing from the community and customer services are being considerably reduced. We should hold a full debate on what is happening. The situation is similar to the threatened withdrawal of post office services but the banks are withdrawing from both urban and rural areas. This development will have serious consequences, particularly for the elderly, businesses and overall community services.
I echo Senator O'Toole's comments on the budget. Every year we highlight the fact that the views of Senators are not given proper consideration in terms of the budget. Prior to the budget is the time for us to hold such a debate. The Labour Party has produced a fine document entitled New Direction, New Priorities and I would welcome the Leader's putting this document before the House so we could have a discussion on what directions might be taken – whether we go down the road the Minister for Finance, Deputy McCreevy, has gone down over the past number of budgets involving tax reductions for the well off, or whether we provide adequate services for those who need them.
An important debate has begun regarding Ireland's position in world affairs. I am referring to our status in Europe and the protection of our independence. This issue also involves our relationship with North America and other countries. The Minister for Arts, Heritage, Gaeltacht and the Islands, Deputy de Valera, made a particular contribution to this debate and raised some relevant questions which should not be ignored. There is the question of our international obligations and our future peacekeeping role.
It is evident from the response to the Minister's statement in Boston that the public also wants to engage in this debate. It behoves this House to be part of that debate because there is a feeling abroad that much is happening without guidance or leadership because events are taking place so fast. Senators have a particular role in this issue and I ask the Leader to arrange such a debate.
I also call for an urgent debate on education. I asked for such a debate some weeks ago and this is an urgent matter. In particular I ask the Leader to make Seán Cromien's report available to Members. It is available to journalists as one can read about it today.
The report seems to be a damning indictment of the Department of Education and Science. What is particularly difficult to swallow is that there seems to be a policy vacuum within the Department and that the most disadvantaged children suffer most. This is an urgent matter and I urge the Leader to ensure we obtain copies of this report so that we do not have a debate in a vacuum.
I support Senators who called for a debate on Seán Cromien's report. It is particularly important that both Houses debate the proposals contained in the report regarding the restructuring of the Department and the tackling of the defects and deficiencies identified by the report.
Perhaps in the context of a day-long debate on education we could also debate teacher training. A recent report on this issue highlighted the new insights into how learning takes place and what kind of intellectual skills this and future generations of young people will need. It is important at this juncture that we seek to examine the effectiveness of our pre-service and in-service teacher training system. For years Senator O'Toole and I have highlighted the lack of proper investment in pre-service and in-service teacher training. This is a good time to debate this issue as we have a report to hand with up-to-date information. It is also a good time to seek political and general support for reform of the Department and of teacher training.
Will the Leader ask the Minister for Finance, Deputy McCreevy, to take on board the pre-budget submission of the Irish Charities Tax Reform Group which has asked him to amend two sections of the Taxes (Consolidation) Act, 1997, which deal with corporate and individual donations to charities? It is estimated that such amendments would cost the Exchequer £27 million but would generate a badly needed income of £120 million for voluntary groups.
Will the Leader invite to the House the Minister of State with responsibility for drugs policy, Deputy Eoin Ryan, to inform us of the measures his Department is taking to counteract the use and abuse of drugs? We have known for years of the drug problem in large urban areas but a problem is developing in my area involving the spiking of young people's drinks in pubs, a practice which gives rise to serious physical and psychological effects in many cases.
Over recent days there have been huge flooding problems all over Ireland. It is about time we asked the Leader of the House to find out how we can make a co-ordinated attack to rectify the consequences of flooding which occurs on a regular basis. Floods in Kilkenny have repercussions in Waterford and they might start in Tipperary.
Nobody has ever analysed exactly why floods occur or the global warming issue which we must consider. A task force should be set up. No doubt throughout the country there are county councils and urban district councils which are not working hard enough to get to the root of the huge problems. The damage done by flooding does not go away when the floods recedes. Unfortunately it remains with us. I ask the Leader to find out if a task force can be set up to deal with this matter.
The other issue I wish to raise relates to yesterday's inquest resulting from the unfortunate death of a young man who fell overboard from a ferry travelling between Wales and Ireland. When there is a plane, rail or car crash anywhere people immediately ask for an inquiry into the cause. The only result of the unfortunate incident to which I refer is that the Government has been called upon to provide a better helicopter service along the east coast, but nobody has asked the ferry companies to do something about it. I ask the Leader to inquire what can be done to improve safety. Why should the ferry companies not have some responsibility to provide helicopter cover for the thousands of people who travel between Ireland, Britain and the Continent? The ferry companies have got away with it seemingly by saying that the responsibility for safety on these carriers lies with the Governments of Ireland and Britain. I ask the Leader to urge the Minister responsible for transport to do something to get the ferry companies, who carry millions of people across the Irish Sea, to accept some responsibility for the safety of people on board their vessels.
I did not hear everything Senator Lanigan said, but I think he did mention flooding. I want to raise the issue of the recent flooding and compensation. One welcomes the announcement yesterday by the Minister responsible that some programme of compensation will be put in place this year for people who have been adversely affected by the floods. This is a rather complicated issue. Last year there was severe flooding, especially in the midlands. The Government indicated then that there might be compensation for losses incurred by people in their homes, on their farms, in their workshops, etc., but when the floods subsided and the issue went away no compensation was forthcoming.
We should ask the Minister of State at the Department of Finance with responsibility for the Office of Public Works, Deputy Cullen, to come into this House to discuss this matter with us. We will make the point to him that half promises made last year to people who sustained damage should be included in any programme of compensation which might be implemented this year.
I want to lend my support to Senator Kett's request for representations to be made regarding the tax treatment of voluntary contributions to charities.
I understand the House discussed the flooding issue at length yesterday on the Order of Business. It is important for the Minister of State, Deputy Cullen, to come into the Seanad to discuss the flooding issue, particularly in the places currently affected. In south Tipperary the local authorities are very annoyed by his comments over the weekend. The reality is that proposals were lodged on his desk for Clonmel on 20 September 1999 and for Carrick-on-Suir in November 1999. Whether he knows it or not, they have been on his desk all that time. They are the proposals agreed unanimously by members of the local authority. He should come in here so that we can explain that to him.
I welcome the announcement yesterday of a compensation fund. I would agree wholeheartedly with Senator Connor that we cannot forget about the floods when they have subsided. We have had experience of this flooding in Clonmel, Carrick-on-Suir and other smaller places in County Tipperary and the south-east over the past years. I was unavailable yesterday and therefore I ask the Leader of the House to remind the Minister of State, Deputy Cullen, of these issues. We need to address this issue and not forget it when the flooding has subsided.
I support my colleague's proposal to amend the Finance Act's treatment of charities. I also support Senator Costello's call to bring the Minister for Finance to the House to speak about the general services which have been withdrawn from rural communities and small towns by some of the major financial institutions. It would be an ideal opportunity for the Government to give some commitment to either the credit union groups or some of the people still providing the basic services to rural communities. It is important that some action is taken to underpin these communities. The collection of motor tax and other taxes provides a great opportunity to strengthen the services which sustain communities of that size in the long-term.
I support the call by Senator Costello for a debate on banks and banking. If I heard him correctly, it is not the DIRT aspect of it which he wishes to discuss but rather the fact that they are closing many branches throughout rural Ireland. If we are serious about combating exclusion and marginalisation, we should do something about this and perhaps follow it up by having a meeting with them. A debate would be a useful precursor.
I have raised a number of times in the past the question of a single regulatory authority. If he could, I would like the Leader to enlighten us this morning. Two weeks ago the Minister of State, Deputy Treacy, stated in this House—
Mr. Ryan
After what happened yesterday, the tribunal has no regulatory authority.
—that shortly the Minister for Finance would be taking this matter. I gather that since then there is some doubt about that. I am not aware of the Government decision but perhaps the Leader might enlighten us as to when it will be taken and who will take it.
I support the calls of Senators Lanigan, Connor and Tom Hayes for a debate on the flooding issue. Not only do we need to bring in the Minister responsible for the OPW but also the Minister for the Environment and Local Government, Deputy Dempsey, who has made several announcements regarding the imposition of extra responsibilities on local authorities. He has made between ten and 13 announcements about extra responsibilities regarding recycling, social exclusion, waste management, etc., but extra money is not being allocated to local authorities.
Kilkenny is getting 52% more than last year.
Order, please.
I must have struck a nerve.
You got—
Order, please. Senator Burke, have you a question for the Leader of the House?
Some 82% over what was allocated.
Order, please.
The Minister for the Environment and Local Government is placing a great strain on local authorities by asking them to deliver services without providing finances. This is an urgent matter. In view of the fact that the majority of local authorities are meeting to discuss their Estimates, I ask that the Minister for the Environment and Local Government should come into the House and spell out in detail his plans to back-up with funds the recent announcements about responsibilities he has placed on local authorities.
I support the Senators' call for a debate on flooding. I have stood here on many occasions seeking a debate on flooding, particularly in my county where roads, houses and large tracts of land were washed away. It is amazing that when the winds blow from the east all of a sudden, everybody stands up and calls for a debate on this issue. Every week my county suffers from that kind of climate. I welcome the call for this debate. We would want to look at County Kerry in particular.
Last week the Cathaoirleach asked me to put down a matter on the Adjournment relating to the gas grid, which I did. I am very disappointed that it has not been taken. I again call for a debate on the new gas grid.
I invited Senator Kiely to submit a matter on the Adjournment. I can assure him that it will be taken tomorrow evening.
I thank the House.
I will make sure I never run foul of you, a Chathaoirligh. I would not like to end up in that situation.
I ask the Leader to arrange for the Minister for the Environment and Local Government to come here to discuss his thoughts on electoral reform. I am reminded of this because of what happened overnight in the United States. We face a problem in regard to prisoner voting rights. We have practically no absentee voting. In two of the America states there is absentee voting, while in every other state there is compulsory absentee voting – in other words, you have to do so by post.
After this morning's results, of which we are not sure, we realise how tenuous our electoral situation is. We have never seriously considered Sunday and absentee voting. Look at what would happen here if we ended up in a situation where the balance depended on such a tiny fraction of votes. Undemocratically, we have not been allowing people to vote who would otherwise be able to vote. I bring this up because it is topical, but it will be too late if we continue to put it off. There is a demand among people other than those who are allowed to vote at present.
I raise the question of tobacco smuggling. This is serious from the points of view of revenue, law and health. If there was uniformity in Europe in regard to tobacco taxation, it would remove the incentive for tobacco smuggling. The Minister for Finance should be interested to know that 1 million is lost with every lorry load of tobacco smuggled across borders in Europe. The Minister for Health and Children would also have a vested interest in making sure there was a uniform tobacco tax. The Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform should be even more interested because this sort of crime is so strong that it is creating gangs and behind the scenes warfare. There is a need for something to be done. I urge the Ministers concerned to give it serious consideration and to come in here to give us their views.
I, too, want to be associated with the congratulations to Hillary Clinton on her election as a Senator for New York. It bears testimony to the great work her husband has achieved in his eight years as President of the United States.
Senator Quinn called for a debate on electoral reform. I am sure that would include the various panels in the Seanad as well. It is not quite right to say Sunday voting has never been considered – it was considered by all parties in Government. Saturday voting, when people and students are home from their place of employment and education, may possibly be more practical if people want the highest number of voters available in their particular district, ward or local authority area.
Senators Manning, O'Toole, Costello, Keogh and Quill called for a debate on education and the report which is about to be published. I will arrange a debate at the earliest possible time and will endeavour to have it in the next two weeks. In response to Senator Manning, I hope to come back to the House tomorrow morning with a date and time for a debate on Northern Ireland. Senator O'Toole and many other Senators called for a pre-budget debate. This is a very useful proposal and I will see what I can do to facilitate the request.
Senator O'Toole referred to the Buckley report, the review which is taking place of the Dáil and the Seanad and the complete change in working hours and work patterns which is imminent whereby we will not sit until 11 p.m., midnight or 1 a.m. but will start the day's work at 10 a.m. and conclude at 7 p.m. Rather than sitting two or three days per week, we will sit four days, affording us opportunities to discuss European reports, everything that is relevant to the future of our country, amending legislation and changing policy for the future. I agree with Senator O'Toole and we should have a debate on the review of the Seanad. We had such debates during Senator Manning's and Deputy Wright's time as Leader and during this term. One more debate before we make our proposals to Government would be a good idea. I hope to have that debate at the earliest possible time.
Senators Costello, Chambers and Coghlan called for a debate on banking and the changes whereby the major banks are proposing to reduce the number of premises by up to 40% in the coming years. The majority of Members are also senior members of local authorities. I call on such Senators to meet the challenge in their local authority areas, particularly given the good example shown by the practice which has started in the Minister for the Environment and Local Government's constituency in Meath, by starting real decentralisation in their own counties with the one stop shops. It is a marvellous opportunity to use these bank buildings.
As sure as night follows day, these banks will close because it is all about profits and Internet banking. That is where the future lies in the financial world. We, in the Oireachtas, have since 1987 assessed more successfully than most other countries the change that is happening. Given how advanced we are in terms of technology, we should lead the way as we are doing in Westmeath. We hope to acquire some of these bank buildings for our one stop shops. They are magnificent buildings and one would not build them for 50% of the cost for which they will be acquired. If a bank closes in Castlepollard, as is the case at present, I will do everything I possibly can to ensure our one stop shop will be located in that magnificent building. This is a window of opportunity which we, as local authority members, can grasp.
I cannot believe it.
We should be positive and show the way to our people.
Is the Leader advocating the closure of rural banks?
The Leader, without interruption.
The success of the credit unions has also given us another window of opportunity. Senator Coghlan, who is a very astute businessman, has made a suggestion to this House in this regard and it should be taken on board, along with that made by Senator Chambers.
I will discuss Senator Ó Murchú's proposal with the Minister to see how we can facilitate it in the House in the coming months. Senators Kett, Maurice Hayes and Chambers pleaded with the Minister for Finance to introduce taxation amendments to facilitate Irish charities. I will pass on the Senators' requests to the Minister. Senator Leonard called for an urgent debate on the misuse of drugs. I will endeavour to hold a debate within the next two weeks. This problem must be addressed because matters are going from bad to worse. I hope we as legislators will bite the bullet in this regard and do what is necessary in relation to those who are creating a long-term problem.
Senators Lanigan, Connor, Tom Hayes, Burke and Dan Kiely called for a debate on flooding. Senator Lanigan called for a debate on setting up a task force, which is a good idea. Senator Burke referred to funding. The Minister for the Environment and Local Government increased funding for environmental projects by more than 50% in most counties between 1997 and 2000.
Senator Dan Kiely called for a debate on the gas grid. I understand the Cathaoirleach will allow time tomorrow evening for this debate. Given the Labour panel camaraderie, the Senator will be facilitated.
On a point of order, is the Leader suggesting that the Cathaoirleach should give preference to those on the same panel as himself? This is outrageous.
I am sure that was not the Leader's intention.
As I am on the same panel, the Senator knows where I am coming from. It was not meant to be taken seriously.
I know where the Senator is coming from.
Senator Quinn asked for a debate on tobacco smuggling which results in a major loss of revenue and is also a major health problem. I will facilitate the Senator's request.
Order of Business agreed to.