The Order of Business today is No. 1, ICC Bank Bill, 2000 – all Stages, with 15 minutes for spokespersons, ten minutes for other Senators and Senators may share time. Business will be interrupted from 1.30 p.m. to 2.30 p.m.
Order of Business.
There is no way we will accept all Stages of a Bill today. I will oppose the Order of Business for that reason.
Will the Leader report to the House on the delay in filling places on the Irish Commission for Human Rights set up under the Belfast Agreement? Apparently a committee of the great and good was set up to recommend names. Names have been submitted to Government, an A team and a B team, yet as is the case with so many other matters, the Government cannot make a decision on this one. Will the Leader report back to us next week on what is happening about the filling of places on the Irish Commission on Human Rights, which is an integral part of the Belfast Agreement?
Can the Leader make time available next week to allow the Minister of State in charge of taxis, Deputy Molloy, to come into the House to report to us on his visit to Mexico? As people in Dublin cannot get taxis today, they are extremely impressed by the fact that the solving of this issue has been left in the hands of the Secretary General of the Department.
That is a cheap shot.
It is not true.
It is not a cheap shot. If the Senator had to wait for a taxi, she would realise this is an example of the bifurcation of the current Administration.
That is unworthy of the Leader of the Opposition.
It is a cheap shot.
The Leader of the Opposition is always worthy.
A first class return air fare to Mexico, please.
We would like to hear how important the trip to Mexico was at this vital time. I am sure the Fianna Fáil members are delighted he is away.
Tomorrow is International AIDS Day. In spite of all of the best efforts of so many people, the figures continue to rise. The figures for sexually transmitted diseases are rising, especially in Dublin. I would like time allowed next week or the week after to debate this matter.
Wherever the Leader returned from, he is feeling very bolshie. He told us yesterday that he would not be imposing a guillotine. The way it is proposed to deal with this Bill effectively is a guillotine. It is disrupting the business of democracy and of legislation. It is no way to do business. It is unacceptable. If the Leader wishes to go down this route, matters could become very disruptive. It is utterly unnecessary to take all Stages of this Bill today. It is wrong. It has been accepted by successive Leaders on both sides of the House that there is agreement to take all Stages of a Bill only in certain circumstances at certain times and we have not been found wanting in giving co-operation any time it has been absolutely necessary to do that. There is an issue of co-operation in doing our business, giving people a proper chance to participate and to table amendments, but this proposal is unacceptable. I am disappointed the Leader did not indicate this to us prior to our hearing it on the Order of Business so that we could have conveyed our views to him in an orderly fashion.
A report was published yesterday by the Department of Tourism, Sport and Recreation detailing the numbers of tourists coming to Ireland and to the regions. Time should be made available to discuss this matter, as those figures highlight the regions that could properly attract taxation support, which is an issue with which we could deal. The figures show that the region that attracted the most tourists, 2.5 million, was the south west, west Cork and Kerry. It is a source of great anxiety to me that one of the most important routes, the Dingle-Tralee route, is so badly pot-holed that the people from that area felt it necessary to come to Dublin yesterday to bring their problems to the attention of a wider audience. I direct my question unusually to the Government Whip, Senator Fitzgerald. I ask him to use his extraordinary influence on the Govern ment, the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform and on Deputy Healy-Rae, to concentrate the attentions of Government on improving the road between Tralee and Dingle to ensure proper infrastructure to facilitiate tourists who wish to visit that area.
The condition of the roads in the Dingle Peninsula is not relevant or appropriate to the Order of Business.
I accept the Chair's ruling. I hope the Chair understands that in calling for a discussion on the tourism industry, I must point to a reason we need to discuss it. The Tralee-Dingle road could vanish the way the Tralee-Dingle railway did 40 years ago. All politics are local.
I object to the manner in which the Leader indicated we will conduct business today. It is bad enough having to move from Committee Stage to Report Stage of a Bill on the same day, as we did yesterday on the National Pensions Reserve Fund Bill, but it is absolutely unacceptable to this side of the House to take all Stages of a Bill on the same day. It must be unacceptable to the other side as well. How can we conduct our business responsibly if we must deal with a Bill in one sitting without an opportunity to come back later on Committee Stage with amendments and later again on Report Stage? That is the business of teasing out legislation, that Senators and the Minister have the opportunity to reflect on proposals and amendments. I am totally opposed to this. I am unsure whether Senator Manning's proposal was seconded, but I second his proposal that the Order of Business is unacceptable.
I wish to move the following amendment to the Order of Business: "That No. 11 be taken." I seek permission to print this Bill for reasons I explained recently and which I will not rehearse again today.
I also support Senator Manning's comments on the Irish Commission for Human Rights as there is a major human rights conference in Ireland next week. We have belatedly passed human rights legislation almost 18 months after Britain did, although it is a central tenet of the Good Friday Agreement. We have still not appointed members of a human rights commission and it would be embarrassing, given that the nation has endorsed the Agreement, that the legislators and the Government have not implemented that Agreement fully. Few elements of any agreement are more important than human rights issues. I ask the Leader to convey to the Minister the importance of dealing with this issue within the next seven days.
Regarding the taxi issue, it is not good enough that the Minister of State responsible for this area left the country when we are in a stand-off.
That is not in order on the Order of Business.
That is scraping the bottom of the barrel.
Members opposite are very sensitive.
We are not discussing the taxi issue again this morning on the Order of Business.
This is the issue people throughout the country are discussing. If we cannot discuss it here and I cannot ask the Minister of State to address the House on the matter, what is the purpose of the House? This is the major issue of the day among people and in the media. How are people to conduct their business over Christmas without a taxi service? That seems to be the situation at present and the taxi drivers are talking of further—
Senator Costello is pre-empting the debate he is seeking. The Senator has requested a debate.
It is even more urgent now because Deputy Molloy's proposal has been rejected. It is important that we hear exactly what is being proposed and why the impasse is continuing.
I am surprised Senator Manning had something so indigestible this morning or that he was so upset by the Leader's proposal.
Snails, escargots.
Perhaps he did have escargots in garlic or he was so upset by the proposed Order of Business that he had to have a swipe at the Minister, Deputy Molloy.
They are separate issues.
I was under the impression that all sides of the House, with the possible exception of Senator Costello, were in favour of deregulation. That was reiterated this morning on radio by the Tánaiste. I think I am entitled to this latitude. The Minister of State met the taxi people for five hours but he would have been entitled, on the basis of what happened outside these gates, to decline to meet them.
Hear, hear.
Will the Minister of State meet us? We have asked every day for him to come in.
The Minister of State is always open to requests for meetings with Members. Any time I ever ask to meet him he meets me.
He is in the Senator's party.
My understanding is that the taxi people were to go away and consider their position. SIPTU will meet over the weekend. I do not know what the Minister of State can usefully do between now and the next scheduled meeting next Tuesday.
There is something much more notable that needs to be discussed and in that context it is worth noting that the Minister responsible is going to Egypt because of the gravity of the situation. That is the proper work of Government. Our beef trade is worth £1.2 billion in exports and is hugely important. It is grievously threatened by the problems with BSE and that is of more immediate concern to the country and the House.
Hear, hear.
It merits a very serious debate. One wonders why it is required to compensate people who paid £80,000 in the open market while it is not required to compensate people who, through the stroke of a pen, have seen their livelihoods disappear.
We are not having the debate now.
Nor will we, but I underline that this is a matter of gravity that should be debated.
Practically every Senator has indicated that he or she wants to be called on the Order of Business. I must insist that the points raised are relevant to the Order of Business, appropriate and brief.
In the same way that the Minister, Deputy Molloy, is unavailable to meet appropriate bodies, the Minister for Education and Science is unavailable. It is very appropriate—
He is available.
That is rubbish. He is available.
—that we have heard nothing in the past few days about the teachers' dispute. It has been overshadowed by the taxi problem.
The Senator should address her request to the Leader.
I have done so consistently in the past few weeks with a view to bringing the Minister for Education and Science to the House. There will have to be compromise, discussion and negotiation. It is extraordinary that he has not been able to confirm that the Minister for Finance has not given appropriate funding in the budget allocation to ensure that voluntary supervision time is paid for by the Department. There is no progress and we will enter 2001 with an exacerbated dispute. The Minister does not seem to be aware of the pressure being put on parents and children.
That is rubbish.
We are not debating the matter now and this is not appropriate on the Order of Business.
There is no progress. We have no other forum and the Minister is not making himself available to the ASTI.
The Senator is being deliberately disorderly.
I am never disorderly. I am asking that the Minister makes himself available to discuss this with the ASTI.
He is available every hour of the day. The Senator has not asked.
He is available.
The Registration of Lobbyists Bill, 2000, was ordered for tomorrow, 1 December. What has happened that Bill? Will it be debated tomorrow?
Another broken promise.
Statistics about sexually transmitted diseases were released recently and today we have the announcement of a huge increase in people with HIV and AIDS-related illnesses. I support Senator Manning's call for a debate on this issue but, more importantly, it is necessary for the Department of Health and Children and the Department of Education and Science to embark upon a public awareness campaign similar to that in the mid-1980s when this illness came to prominence. It was effective then but at present there is possibly some complacency among people. We must look into this immediately.
I share Senator Dardis's concerns about the BSE crisis and I am sure we all congratulate our Commissioner, Mr. David Byrne, on his handling of the matter. It is a serious crisis for the farming community but it is also a serious public health issue. The Commissioner is introducing a ban on the use of meat and bonemeal in all animal feed from 1 January 2001, which I have sought for many years. Will the Leader ask the Minister for Agriculture, Food and Rural Development to tell us how he proposes to introduce that ban in Ireland? It is vital to assure consumers that cattle are not being given contaminated feed but we have been unable to do that for the past five years. We could do that now if we had introduced a ban at the same time as we introduced the ban for cattle feed.
In view of the fact that the Mental Health Bill is making such heavy weather through the Dáil, could we debate the report of the Inspector of Mental Hospitals in the final weeks remaining in the session?
I agree with the sentiments expressed by Senator Dardis. The export of beef from Ireland is a very important issue. Following discussions with the Egyptian Ambassador, I have to say that we have a friend in court in that particular case, and the Minister for Agriculture, Food and Rural Development is doing an excellent job. The Egyptian Ambassador is very supportive of our stance, and he has stated that publicly, but we cannot avoid the fact that there is a major crisis in the beef industry throughout the world. I do not know how many cattle in Argentina or Australia have been buried but there is no doubt that BSE is endemic in countries which do not provide statistics.
Yes.
We have provided statistics and those statistics have harmed our position in a certain way, but we have a herd of cattle which is relatively free of BSE. The Enfer testing system, which came out of—
We are not discussing that matter now. I take it you are supporting the request for a debate on this issue.
The Enfer testing system, which was devised in Tipperary about three years ago – Senator Tom Hayes is not here – is the best test in the world for BSE and the sooner that test is introduced on a worldwide basis, the better.
Members have raised the question of HIV and AIDS. I raised that matter yesterday morning but there are people here who obviously were not listening yesterday—
We always listen.
That is a terrible thing to say.
—when the Leader said that in view of the problem of AIDS throughout the world, he would arrange for an early debate on the matter. Tomorrow is World AIDS Day and even though the House will not sit tomorrow to discuss the matter, acknowledging that there is a problem is a step forward, but an early debate is necessary.
When Senator O'Toole deviated from education and referred to roads he was very specific but I will be more general. Will the Leader indicate if it would be possible to have a debate, with the Minister for the Environment and Local Government present, on the state of rural roads and the streamlining of policy in that regard? We are experiencing the wettest winter in the history of the State and the tertiary county and regional roads are getting worse by the day at a time when budgets are being formulated and finances are being made available. It would be worthwhile to have a debate on the state of rural roads and to streamline policy and funding for them in the context of the upcoming Estimates. If the Leader would facilitate that debate it would be worthwhile and greatly appreciated by the people of rural Ireland who live in difficult conditions and have to use extremely poor roads.
Will the Leader arrange a debate on defence? That would give the Members of this House an opportunity to respond to the outrageous remarks made by Judge Desmond Windle in a recent court hearing. Judge Windle should be like the proverbial—
There is a tradition in the House that we do not comment on remarks made by members of the Judiciary.
It is a great pity that members of the Judiciary would not reciprocate because the remarks about members of the Defence Forces in Lebanon were outrageous. A debate would give us an opportunity—
Senator Glynn—
Sorry, Cathaoirleach, as my party's spokesperson on defence, I believe it is an outrage—
As spokesperson the Senator should obey the rules of the House.
—that this man made those remarks about our soldiers who are our pride and joy and who brought honour to this country as peacekeepers. Like the proverbial cobbler, he should stick to his last and dispense justice fairly.
I shall try to avoid proverbs. The Leader has frequently told the House about the enormous amount of legislation generated by the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform and has referred to it in glowing terms, but I would like him to draw the attention of the Minister to certain lacunae in this area. Yet again we have been told by the Judiciary that there is a gap in legislation on sentencing policy and that this is due in particular to the absence of a parole board. Will the Leader ask the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform to come to the House to explain that and, while he is at it, he might also explain what he is doing about the licensing industry? There are two items in the newspaper today, one from a councillor in Portlaoise complaining about violence from young people immediately after pub closing time and another from UCD, which has had to adopt a code of policy with regard to sponsorship because of the aggressive marketing of the drinks industry among students in University College Dublin.
It would never happen in Trinity.
They can drink in college.
Will the Leader invite the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform to the House to examine these points? Perhaps there is an opportunity for the Minister to establish a liaison with the Judiciary to obviate these matters so that people who are involved in administering the law could signal directly to the Minister and he could have the opportunity to bring in appropriate legislation.
I support the calls for a debate on BSE. I saw the proceedings of the committee and I heard the Minister for Agriculture, Food and Rural Development say last night that we would continue using bonemeal for pigs and lambs – perhaps I am wrong and I am prepared to be corrected – and this is very worrying. Given the lack of an incinerator here we will continue exporting very large quantities of it to other countries, including other European countries. That is a devastating lack of moral responsibility if we believe it will cause BSE. Why do we not worry about other citizens of the European Union while we are at it?
I support the call by Senator Dardis and others for an urgent debate on BSE. The position is getting worse by the day. A temporary cessation of imports of Irish beef was imposed by Egypt yesterday. Egypt is our biggest single market and it is imperative that we have the Minister in the House sooner rather than later. We should go further and say there is a need now for the temporary reintroduction of intervention.
In relation to what Senator Henry said about the disposal and banning of meat and bonemeal, that will be a huge problem for this country and perhaps it is the Minister for the Environment and Local Government who should be in here because it would appear that responsibility for disposal facilities will rest with the Department of the Environment and Local Government and the local authorities in particular.
Both methods are acceptable.
I agree with Senator Manning and the other Senators who disagreed with the proposed Order of Business for today. I invite the Leader to confirm that it is not in line with an agreement that I understood was reached when this House was re-elected in 1997. I understood that Members on both sides agreed that it was bad practice to take all Stages of a Bill on one day. There may be the odd exception to that but it is happening far too frequently. I would like the Leader to respond seriously on that matter.
Has the Leader an update on when we are likely to have a Government decision in regard to a single regulatory authority for financial institutions? I strongly support Senator O'Toole's remarks about the appalling state of what is supposed to be a national secondary road from Tralee to Dingle. It either warrants that status or it does not. People have to travel from west Kerry and this peripheral region is being treated disgracefully. The rest of the Kingdom is a national asset—
This is not relevant to the Order of Business.
I appreciate the strictures under which you operate, a Chathaoirligh. My appreciation of the difficulties with which you contend and the fair and impartial manner in which you always discharge your duties grows on a daily basis.
I am afraid I have created many of my difficulties by being too lenient with Senators.
Other Senators referred to the BSE crisis. For a long time Senator Tom Hayes has been preaching the need for vigilance. This is not simply a crisis, it is a national tragedy which needs much more than a debate in the House.
Any attempt to take from the peacekeeping role of the Defence Forces is to be deplored and a gross distortion of the facts as we know them. These brave people have acted as a buffer between hostile forces and very often have contributed to an atmosphere which is conducive to a solution. The House must bear in mind that many people lost their lives doing this and anyone who suggests it is a farce has to be corrected.
I apologise for even daring to suggest that my esteemed colleague who has left the House would possibly talk for too long.
I repeat the call I made last week for the Minister for Health and Children to come into the House to debate the speech therapy service. The children of parents who have health insurance will get speech therapy, while other children have to wait for two years for the first appointment. This is not tenable. I would be even pleased to get a report on what the Minister proposes to do about the lack of personnel in this area. If children have to wait for this service they are not being treated justly. I have two children who have a slight hearing defect and have never spoken. We live in north Clondalkin and they have not been able to avail of the services of a speech therapist.
I support the points made by Senator Manning and others about the ICC Bill. The House will be interested to know that there will no amendments to the Bill either on the Committee or Report Stages. The reason is that the ICC is holding an EGM tomorrow and we are rubbing stamping what it will decide at that meeting. It cannot hold an EGM to increase the authorised capital until this House has passed the Bill. This House is being told to push the Bill through to suit this State bank and its programme. We are being treated with absolute contempt. Nothing that is said about the Bill today will matter a damn because its purpose is to suit the ICC which will meet tomorrow. This is a farce.
The Bill should have been introduced two or three weeks ago. I accept that it was only passed by the Dáil on 28 November, but it was published three or four weeks ago and could have been brought before us sooner so that there might have been a serious discussion. We find ourselves in the position where what we do today will be ratified by the ICC tomorrow morning. This House is becoming a rubber stamp for outside forces. It is not tolerable.
Requests have been made on numerous occasions for a debate on the BMW region and I ask the Leader to give us an update on this. I support Senator Manning's opposition to taking of all Stages of the ICC Bill. I agree with the points made by Senator Ross. When Senator Dardis was in Opposition he always opposed the taking of all Stages of a Bill on the same day.
It is well I remember it.
I ask him to oppose the taking of all Stages of this important Bill today.
It is called consistency.
I ask the Leader as a matter of urgency to ascertain from the Minister for the Marine and Natural Resources, Deputy Fahey, or the Minister for Public Enterprise, Deputy O'Rourke, when Enterprise Oil will announce the commercial viability of the Corrib gas field. We now have the unreal situation where the public has been led to believe that the Corrib gas field is on stream, yet the consortium has made no public announcement about the commercial viability of the field. I ask the Leader to find out when this decision will be announced.
Senators Manning, O'Toole, Costello, Coghlan and Ross oppose the taking of all Stages of the ICC Bill today. This is not the usual practice but, as Senator Ross outlined, there are time pressures in the case of the Bill.
Since the Government took office 135 Bills have been passed by both Houses; 45 of these Bill were initiated in the Seanad. We have had a major input to legislation during the lifetime of the Government, which was not the case in the past. There are exceptional cases, and when Senator Manning was Leader of the House there were also exceptional cases. I would like to be present tomorrow and Saturday to discuss the Committee and Report Stages, but time is of the essence and I ask for the co-operation of the House in taking all Stages of the Bill today.
The Leader will not get it.
As Senators know, it has not been the practice to take all Stages of a Bill on the same day.
Normally we are shown the courtesy of discussing the proposal beforehand. That is the difference.
The Leader must be allowed to reply without interruption.
I will make inquiries from the Irish Commission on Human Rights on the issue raised by Senator Manning and, if possible, come back to him later today. Many Senators called for another debate on the taxi dispute. The Deputy Leader dealt with this adequately. Senators will recall that on the first day of the dispute I amended the Order of Business to facilitate Members who wished to make a statement on the taxi dispute.
Senators Leonard, Lanigan and Manning referred to International AIDS Day. I have agreed to allocate time for a debate on this issue. I agree with the sentiments expressed by the Senators. I will convey Senator O'Toole's comments on the problems in County Kerry to the Minister. On tourism generally, I agree with the sentiments expressed. I was interested to note that 34% of tourism in the Cork-Kerry region is attributable to the success of the game of golf.
The scenery has something to do with it also.
On the point raised by Senator Costello, I can accept No. 11 for permission to print. Senators Dardis, Henry, Lanigan, Norris, Coghlan and Callanan called for an urgent debate on BSE. I will discuss this with the group leaders after the Order of Business and try to facilitate the request early next week. Senator Jackman called for another debate on education. I will allocate time for this debate. Senator Henry called for statements in the House on the report of the Inspector of Mental Hospitals. I do not envisage this debate taking place before Christmas as there is much legislation to be debated and this takes precedence. I will keep it in mind and, when possible, allocate time for it.
Senator McDonagh called for a debate on rural roads. I understand that this year Galway got a substantial increase in funding for this work. However, it will be Fine Gael Private Members' time on Wednesday week and, if the Senator's leader agrees, we have no difficulty whatsoever in having the Minister present. The Senator should consult Senator Manning.
Senators Glynn and Ó Murchú called for a debate on defence. I want to be associated with their sentiments, particularly in regard to those who have served Ireland honourably and well down through the years in the Defence Forces and those who unfortunately lost their lives in the course of their service. I have no difficulty making time available to discuss this.
Senator Norris asked me to pass on to the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform his views regarding sentencing policies, the licensing laws and parole boards, and I will do so.
Senator Coghlan again inquired about the single regulatory authority. I will make inquiries on this and come back to the Senator later.
Senator Ridge called on the Minister for Health and Children to come into the House to state what is his policy in regard to speech therapy. I fully endorse her sentiments and I will see what I can do.
Senator Burke called for a debate on the BMW region, for which Objective One status was secured by Fianna Fáil. I have no difficulty whatsoever with that and will facilitate the Senator.
Senator Caffrey—
What about the Progressive Democrats? Is it a one party Government?
The Leader, without interruption.
Is it a partnership Government?
Is there a Government or is there just a party?
Only one party in Government is in the Objective One area.
There is only one party in Government. I thank the Leader for confirming that.
I thought the Senator would have known that.
Croppies lie low.
Senator Caffrey called on the Minister for Public Enterprise to confirm the commercial gas find in the west. I will make inquiries in relation to this.
On a point of order, I would like a ruling from the Chair. No. 1 on the Order Paper states specifically, "ICC Bank Bill, 2000 – Second Stage".
Yes.
In answer to your ruling, a Chathaoirligh, co-operation has never been refused to the Leader any time he has asked for it or explained to our Members—
That is not a point of order.
I want the record of the House to show that he has never been refused co-operation, he has always received it.
Senator, that is not a point of order.
The various group leaders have always had the courtesy to discuss difficulties previously.
On a point of order—
Senator, you must resume your seat. You have already spoken on the Order of Business.
I am trying to raise a point of order. It is not an ambush. The Order Paper states, "Second Stage".
I seek leave of the House to publish the Central Bank (Amendment) Bill, 2000.
I ask the Senator to bear with me for a moment. Senator Costello moved an amendment to the Order of Business that No. 11 be inserted before No. 1. The amendment was not seconded in debate but since the Leader has indicated he is prepared to accept it, I will accept a seconder now.
I second it.
Is the amendment agreed? Agreed. Is the Order of Business, as amended, agreed to?
Are we voting on Second Stage as stated on the Order Paper?
You are voting on the Order of Business.
Question put: "That the Order of Business, as amended, be agreed to".
Tá
|
Bohan, Eddie.Callanan, Peter.Cassidy, Donie.Cox, Margaret.Cregan, JohnDardis, John.Farrell, Willie.Fitzgerald, Liam.Gibbons, Jim.Glennon, Jim.Glynn, Camillus. |
Kett, Tony.Kiely, Rory.Lanigan, Mick.Leonard, Ann.Mooney, Paschal.Moylan, Pat.O'Donovan, Denis.Ó Murchú, Labhrás.Ormonde, Ann.Quill, Máirín.Walsh, Jim. |
Níl
|
Burke, Paddy.Caffrey, Ernie.Coghlan, Paul.Costello, Joe.Doyle, Joe.Henry, Mary.Jackman, Mary.Keogh, Helen. |
McDonagh, Jarlath.Manning, Maurice.Norris, David.O'Dowd, Fergus.O'Toole, Joe.Ridge, Thérèse.Ross, Shane. |
Tellers: Tá, Senators Farrell and Gibbons; Níl, Senators Burke and Ridge.
Question declared carried.