Seanad Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 13 Dec 2000

Vol. 164 No. 20

Local Government Legislation: Motion.

Mr. Coogan

I move:

That Seanad Éireann condemns the Government on its lack of progress in advancing local government legislation, particularly in view of the changing role of local government members and the increased demands on those members as a result of changes made to the structure of local government.

I welcome the Minister of State and regret that the Minister for the Environment and Local Government, Deputy Dempsey, is not present as he is the Minister responsible for the Bill which we are seeking to have advanced. There is confusion as to why it is being held up. There is no confusion in my mind, however, and I am certain that Senator Walsh will indicate the exact reason and those who are holding it up. We, on this side of the House, have a responsibility and a duty to ensure such critical and essential legislation is advanced. If it is not advanced by the Government, the onus will fall on us to introduce our own Bill. I am certain that the Minister would not be overly satisfied with that because there are elements of the Bill, awaiting Second Stage in the Dáil, that he would not like to see removed, but which we would have no difficulty in removing. For example, our stance on the issue of directly elected mayors is quite clear – we are totally against it. We do not believe in the five year plan either.

The motion is not meant to be divisive. Its purpose is very simple, that is, to encourage the Government to take action on a Bill which has been promised and held up for the past two years. The Minister gave a commitment to open up the portals to the public by overhauling and changing the structure of local government to make it more responsive and communal, but that has not happened. He also gave a commitment that members of local authorities would be paid a salary as is their due.

The public might be surprised by the amount of work members of local authorities have to do and the issues in which they are involved, the common ones being the provision and allocation of housing, roads and sewerage, but there are others, including, for example – this might surprise the Minister of State – the provision of tourism infrastructure. This is an aspect of local government he should discuss with the Minister for Tourism, Sport and Receation. If tourism is to be sustainable, there must be an integrated approach involving local government, which provides critical infrastructure such as roads, bridges, pathways and shelters. It, therefore, has a major role to play in tourism. Tourism will not be sustainable unless local government is involved.

The role of members of local authorities has changed dramatically in recent years. Some of the changes have been introduced by the Minister to whom I made the point that SPCs, for example, would add to the workload of members of local authorities, but he had the nerve to say no, that they would lighten their workload. With the area committees and the other new structures which have been put in place, they place greater demands on members of local authorities with the result that, for many, it is now almost a full-time job. Many cannot become involved in local government for the simple reason that they cannot give the time demanded of members of local authorities.

I know of people who earn in the region of £30 per hour on average. It is only right and appropriate, therefore, that those who make a contribution to local government – which the Minister, as a former member of a local authority and former national secretary of the Local Authority Members Association, has always underwritten as the greater democracy – get their just deserts; they should be paid a salary commensurate with the work that they do. It is a simple request and one with which the Minister would agree. The problem is that he cannot shift it through the Government. What then are we to do? Should we sit back and let another year go by? What about the commitments given and promises made and the future perceived for local government? Are they to be left on the shelf to gather dust? Are members of local authorities to look around and ask themselves, "Why am I bothering if the Government is not?"

Senator Walsh and I know where the Bill is being held up. Some are of the view that it is being held up by this side of the House. It is not, we have no say in the matter. It is being held up by about four Government Members and perhaps one Independent Member. Surely, the Government can take care of him by doing a deal.

Mr. Byrne

We are not into that type of thing.

Mr. Coogan

When did it stop? This week? I know one or two of the Members who are holding the Bill up. The reason is that they want to retain their positions on local authorities and their seats in Dáil Éireann. We, on this side of the House, no longer agree with the dual mandate. A person can only commit himself or herself to local government if he or she has the time to do so. A Deputy or Senator is a member of a local authority only to look after his or her seat. If the commitment given by the Minister is not met by next February, the onus will fall on us in this House, as the representatives elected by local government, to advance legislation to ensure the role played by members of local authorities is seen as one worthy of respect and remuneration.

Mr. Burke

I second the motion. I wish to share time with Senator Denis Cregan.

An Cathaoirleach

Is that agreed? Agreed.

Mr. Burke

I am disappointed the Minister for the Environment and Local Government is not present for this debate. We were given assurances on several occasions by the Leader of the House, Senator Cassidy, that this Bill would be introduced in the Seanad before Christmas. It is not his fault that this has not happened but the fault of the Government and the Minister for the Environment and Local Government.

I am not aware of where the delay has occurred but Senator Coogan seems to know and said not much would be required to resolve it. If that is so, there is no reason the Government should not be able to resolve the difficulty in bringing the Bill before the Oireachtas. Changes can be made to it before it is finally passed. It is a pity the Government will not take this course. It is also a pity the Minister for the Environment and Local Government did not come to the Seanad this evening to face the music.

The Minister has introduced many changes in local government during the past three years. Some of them have been implemented but others are still hanging in the balance. That is to the detriment of the local authorities, which are deteriorating each day. That is sad because people are losing interest in local democracy as a result. People will not go forward for election if this continues unchanged. I urge the Minister of State to ask the Minister for the Environment and Local Government to give a firm commitment that he will introduce the Local Government Bill in the first week of the next session. That is the least he should do.

Senator Coogan pointed out that a public representative's job at local authority level is virtually full-time. If that is so and if the Government is serious about the importance of local government, it must be serious about pay and compensation for people who freely give their time to this important job. A function was held last week in Clontarf Castle which was attended by the Minister for the Environment and Local Government. Representatives from the local authority groups – LAMA, the General Council of County Councils and the Association of Municipal Authorities of Ireland – were also present. None of the representatives was happy. They complained that they have extra duties and functions to perform as a result of legislation passed by these Houses but the Government is unwilling to introduce legislation to compensate them, despite the promises it made prior to the last local elections.

The Minister for the Environment and Local Government promised at that time to introduce the Local Government (No. 2) Bill. That Bill is the subject of this motion because it has not yet been brought before the Oireachtas. The Minister reneged on his promises to the people who put their names forward in the last local elections. These people stood for election in the interests of their towns and communities. They sought to represent those areas in the expectation that something would be done to assist them in carrying out the responsibilities placed on them by their constituents. The Minister reneged on that promise.

I urge the Minister of State, Deputy Byrne, to give a clear message to the Minister and the Government that this Bill should be introduced in the first week of the next Dáil session. If necessary, changes can be made to the Bill in the House. The Minister can consider amendments that might be put forward by the various groups before the Bill is passed by the House.

Mr. D. Cregan

I wish to be associated with the remarks of the last two speakers. I am delighted to welcome the Minister of State, Deputy Byrne, who has a clear understanding of what is involved in local government.

It is important that local government is seen to work properly. It is sad that members and staff of local authorities are being given extra responsibilities by the Government although no agreement was reached with the staff on these matters. That is a sad reflection on the manner in which the Government operates. It was intended that SPCs, for example, would be operational over a year ago. People are even being paid as chairmen of SPCs but they are not working. Where lies the reponsibility for that? They were elected and nominated to authorities yet the SPCs are not yet fully operational.

Nothing is forthcoming with regard to the Local Government (No. 2) Bill. Impressions and rumours abound that the Government is doing this, that and the other but what is being done? Why not have a debate in both Houses on what is the best course to take in the interest of local government?

Not long ago an amendment was brought forward by the Government to ensure that particular chairmanships could not be given to Members of the Oireachtas. However, another amendment was rushed before this House to provide that they could take such chairmanships because agreement could not be reached with certain Members of the Lower House with regard to these chairmanships. This side of the House is agreed that people should not hold the dual mandate, not only as a matter of general principle but because it is in the best interests of local authorities.

People who would normally have applied to work in local authorities are not doing that now. There is a shortage of staff in certain authorities. Management and councillors are working under enormous strain. I am not saying this just because I am depending on the votes of these people. I do not deny that I depend on their votes. However, it is most unfair that they are working under heavy strain. The Government is saying one thing and another about the Bill but nothing is forthcoming. That is a sad reflection on us as legislators.

There is need for improvement in local government. This Bill should be introduced to ensure that Wexford, Cork and other areas can benefit. At present, people cannot take responsibility because others will not give it to them.

Mr. Walsh

I move amendment No. 1:

To delete all words after "Seanad Éireann" and substitute the following:

"commends the Government on the real and tangible progress which has been made since June 1997 to make local government more relevant and more vibrant and to acknowledge the landmark events in this regard, such as:

the establishment, by way of new legislation, of the local government fund which has delivered almost 63% more funding to local authorities since 1997 for their general purpose; and the introduction of a "needs and resources" model to the allocations process to create a more equitable method of distributing funds;

the National Development Plan 2000-2006 which provides for the greatest ever capital investment programme by local authorities to upgrade roads, water and other necessary infrastructure;

the wide range of initiatives currently under way to modernise financial management systems, audit, VFM, customer services, management structures, corporate planning, strategic policy committees and to provide a proper information and training programme for councillors;

the establishment earlier this year of county/city development boards led by local government with representatives of the State agencies and the social partners to draw up a local strategy for economic, social and cultural development;

the passing of the referendum last year to give, for the first time, constitutional recognition to local government and to guarantee local elections every five years;

the Planning and Development Act, 2000 which introduced a sustainable development ethos into land use planning and enhances the policy role of members in making decisions on future development in their areas and the innovative measures to support social and affordable housing;

the publication of the Local Government Bill, 2000, Second Stage of which will be taken early in the next Dáil session, which is designed to underpin the range of initiatives already under way to enhance the role of the elected members and place them at the heart of local democracy and to provide additional practical supports such as salary/pension arrangements and other measures to reinforce the distinctive nature of local government as now recognised in our Constitution.

Ar an chéad dul síos ba mhaith liom fáilte a ghabháil leis an Aire Stáit go dtí an Teach seo. Is fear é a bhfuil an-eolas aige ar rialtas áitiúil agus an-suim aige ann freisin. Bhí sé ina bhall de Chomhairle Chontae Loch Garman ar feadh trí bliana is fiche.

I have no difficulty accepting the contention in the second part of the motion that the changing role of local government is placing increased demands on local authority members throughout the country. Those of us who are local authority members would agree that the demands of the improved local government system which is being gradually introduced are changing the role of councillor from what was formerly a part-time position to one which is now almost full time.

The delay in getting the strategic policy committees and the corporate policy groups off the ground has contributed to some extent to councillors' workload. The local government system must be rationalised to ensure that committees, whose functions are redundant, are not carried forward into the new system. There is a general purposes committee in my county which meets once a month to discuss issues that arise at the county council meeting and it strikes me that the corporate policy group would be an ideal vehicle through which that function could be carried out.

Opposition Members are being somewhat disingenuous in the first part of the motion. Many of them have commented very favourably on the current Minister for the Environment and Local Government. The local government legislation introduced last May is probably the most comprehensive Local Government Bill to have been introduced in the Oireachtas to date. The Minister has engaged in wide-ranging consultation with all interested parties, particularly the three representative councillor associations. As someone involved in that process, I have been struck by the Minister's commitment and amenability to taking on board constructive suggestions with a view to strengthening the Bill which, in turn, will strengthen local democracy. My colleagues in LAMA, the General Council of County Councils and the AMAI would endorse that sentiment.

The current Minister is the first Minister to introduce constitutional recognition of local government, something which local authority members sought for a long time and which was long overdue. The Minister has the vision, empathy and personal commitment to ensure that the changes made in local government will be far-reaching and will strengthen the work of local authorities. While I might have some reservations to the effect that the Minister has not gone far enough in certain areas, the enhancement of local government and the empowerment of local democracy is the Bill's primary objective. The three representative organisations held a joint meeting with the Minister recently and we hope he will bear in mind the suggestions made as the Bill goes through the House.

Underlying this motion is the feeling that councillors have never received tangible recognition for their contribution to the development not only of local government but also of our current economic growth. Section 141 of the Bill will introduce powers to allow councillors to be properly recompensed for their time, dedication and effort.

Complaints have been made for years, certainly for as long as I have been a councillor, about the lack of funding of local government. Since the Minister took office, there has been a 63% increase in local government funding. That is set out in the amendment which I urge Opposition Members to examine. Local government funding has never been better.

The national development plan outlines a very ambitious infrastructural investment programme – £46 billion will be spent in this area between 2000-06. The fruits of that investment will primarily depend on the capacity of local government, in conjunction with the construction industry, to ensure the objectives outlined in the national development plan are attained. Local government will have an increased role in the delivery of infrastructural developments such as roads, sanitary services and housing. The investment currently being geared up at local authority level is very badly needed and will create a new dynamism in other areas of local government responsibility.

The fundamental problem faced by local authorities is more of a human resources than a financial resources nature. The quality of management in the public service generally is a serious issue which must be addressed. It was a mistake to allow promotions at grade six or seven level to be filled internally and unless that decision is reversed, the calibre of the people promoted to these positions may come into question in the future. That, in turn, may impinge on the capacity of local authorities to carry out their functions. These positions should be filled by the people best qualified for them, irrespective of whether they are in the public service. Under the better local government system, many able public servants are availing of the rationalisation package, as a consequence of which we may well lose good people and be left with people who may not meet the requirements of the vacated positions. It may also be necessary to consider the issue of remuneration in conjunction with people's capacity to carry out particular functions.

The Minister has taken many initiatives, such as those in relation to value for money and customer services, which are only coming on stream at the moment. There is a great deal of scope for improvement in these areas at local authority level. The antiquated local authority financial systems are also being modernised. In regard to the local government audit, I am aware of one local authority which has not yet been audited for the years 1997, 1998 and 1999. A private company in that position would be in breach of company law. I do not understand why it is necessary to depend on the local government auditor system to carry out annual audits. There is no reason accountancy firms should not be engaged to carry out this work which could subsequently be reviewed on a periodic basis by the local government auditor. The delays in the system should not be allowed to continue. The Minister has particularly applied his attention to the training of councillors and the Department has put in place training programmes in regard to local government policy.

Some aspects of the Bill have received more attention than others. The positions of cathaoirleach and mayor are full time, and nobody who has served as a council chairman, even at urban council level, would disagree with that. Continuity is essential – rotating the chairmanship on an annual basis is not in the best interest of local government. The real issue is whether the chairman should be elected by the council or elected directly, the latter option being the one favoured by the Minister. The five years' service period as a public representative would be a welcome qualification.

The city and county management function is not properly addressed in the Bill. I hope it will receive further consideration as the legislation passes through the House. We have extremely good managers who have made a tremendous contribution at local level, but it is not a uniform pattern as there are others who have not delivered the goods. The system generates bureaucracy and I think many will agree that it has created a democratic deficit. We hope some suggestions will be made to the Minister in terms of strengthening the role of the corporate policy group and that gradually shifting executive decisions to that group of elected members is something he will take on board.

The five year election cycle is welcome. It will rejuvenate local government and is a break with the system of elections being held every seven or eight years.

I wish to refer to the ending of the dual mandate. Many who have a commitment to local government, including myself, would like the dual mandate to continue, perhaps for a selfish or personal reason, but it would not in the interest of local government.

Mr. Coogan

Does that make it five?

Mr. Walsh

The introduction by the Minister of a salary for councillors and an appropriate pension and, I hope, a gratuity system is ample evidence of his commitment to the improvement of local government and to those who serve in it, which has not been paralleled by any of his predecessors.

Mr. McDonagh

I wish to share time with Senator Tom Hayes. I speak not only as a Senator but as one who has been a member of a local authority since 1985. I see the enormous changes and the huge demands placed on members of local authorities. These people give voluntarily and unselfishly of their time in the cause of their communities. As time becomes more precious with people trying to keep abreast of the Celtic tiger, and as demand becomes more important than ever before, public representatives are under enormous pressure as they try to service the var ious committees, including county council, planning, area group, SPC, sub-committees, health board and VEC meetings in addition to meetings of the General Council of County Councils, LAMA and the regional authorities, to mention but a few.

One must be in a very flexible job, unemployed or retired to be a councillor as the demand on their time is enormous. The time has come when public representatives involved in local government must be rewarded and remunerated. Otherwise, very few will go forward in the local authority elections in three and a half years' time.

There are many extremely important and intricate matters coming before local authorities and members must do much more study and research than heretofore. In this context I refer to county development plans, planning regulations, housing and road programmes and estimates. To keep abreast of all these matters, conferences and seminars must be attended. Therefore, the demand on members is increasingly difficult and it is incumbent on the Government to bring forward the local government legislation to put a structure in place where members have proper back-up services and a proper system of remuneration.

Local councillors are an integral part of the system of government. They are the foot soldiers who often carry the can for representatives at national level. When national representatives are in Dublin, local councillors can be contacted at all times. We must respond to their needs and ensure they are properly looked after. That is why I support the motion.

Given the Christmas season, one could say that when the Minister for the Environment and Local Government brought forward the reforms, he offered, in Dickens style, great expectations and became a hero therein, but if his reluctance continues in terms of bringing the Bill before the Houses of the Oireachtas he will become more like Scrooge in "A Christmas Carol."

Mr. T. Hayes

I welcome the Minister to the House. I am delighted that a person which such experience at local authority level is here to listen to the sentiments of Senators. There is a huge amount of knowledge in this Chamber as many people have spent many years on local authorities and have gained much experience. There is no better grounding for a politician than to begin as a member of a local authority. One of the biggest shocks to the system is attending one's first meeting – I attended my first meeting in 1991 – and realising the amount of knowledge necessary and the things to be done and to be concentrated upon. Much of that knowledge has been shown here tonight in the contributions of Senators.

One of the reasons I strongly support the motion is that prior to last June there was a certain reluctance among people in my constituency to become involved in public life. It is a tough life and being a member of a local authority is difficult. In certain areas in my constituency people were not anxious to stand for election. We persuaded some of them to do so, one of whom was a young married lady with a young family who worked on a FÁS scheme, who stood for the first time and was elected to an urban council. One of the reasons she agreed to stand was that we said she would get some remuneration. The lady is working flat out as a member of a local authority, giving huge commitment to something she never did before. What other section of society is doing that nowadays? We live in an age where people, including trade unionists, farm leaders etc. are properly paid. We have been talking about this Bill for some time and it must be introduced to the House after Christmas as there are several people such as that lady who are working hard on behalf of their communities.

The role of councillors has changed much in recent years. With mobile telephones and faxes, communication is much more readily available to everybody. People need instant solutions to their problems. As a result, people are far more demanding and want a proper service. There are public representatives willing to do that work, but it is costing them money. It is high time we put in place a proper system of remuneration for those people as it is taxing on their time and energy.

There is a need for changes in the role of chairmen of councils. However, I do not agree with the Minister in terms of directly electing chairmen. In my time as a member of a local authority, nine people have had the role of chairman of the county council. It is an honour for any parish or community for one of their people to be elected chairman. If the chairman was directly elected for five years, only two people would have had the position of chairman over the time I have been a member of the authority. The Minister should rethink this important area, as inclusion of such a provision would limit the number of people who could lead their county and local authority. I question the reason for such provision. However, I see where the Minister is coming from.

In recent weeks a major investment was made when over £5 million worth of land was bought on the outskirts of Clonmel. The local authority members were not consulted about it, not even the chairman. On the morning of the meeting the chairman was told there was to be a major announcement. It is not good enough that public representatives had no say. I welcome the decision. It was the right decision and will have huge implications in the county. However, it is wrong that the chairman or members of the local authority were not consulted. The Minister is right to make the change, but I do not agree with him on directly elected chairmen.

Minister of State at the Department of the Marine and Natural Resources (Mr. Byrne): I am taking this matter on behalf of my colleague the Minister for the Environment and Local Government, Deputy Dempsey, who cannot be here this evening because of other business.

Renewal of local government is finally centre stage. After many years of debate, reports, studies and rhetoric, we are seeing, at last, the start of real change and improvements to our local government system. I am happy to acknowledge the publication by the previous Administration of the White Paper, Better Local Government, in 1996. That said, however, until this Government came to power almost four years ago, the issue of local government renewal was still largely aspirational; it might be said that it proceeded at a snail's pace. Since then, the Minister has been working hard on a major programme of local government renewal and putting the various building blocks in place. Local government, constitutional and planning Bills were enacted in each of the last three years and seem to have bypassed the Fine Gael snail.

I was with a group of school children recently and we asked them to write down what they thought of various parties in the political system. Members would not want to hear some of the responses. However, I would like to share one little ditty with the House. What one child said was very appropriate: "God help all those in Fine Gael, for support they have employed a snail." That is not intended to be offensive. There were others that I would not care to mention here this evening. It is good to see that Fine Gael has woken up at last, but it will see that this Government has been pressing forward in a drive to renew our system of local government.

The critical objectives of the renewal programme are to strengthen local democracy, especially through an enhanced role for elected members, to provide proper resources, to develop partnership with sectoral interests and local communities, to improve customer service and to develop efficiencies in local government. It is a measure of the commitment of this Government, and much credit is due to the Minister for the Environment and Local Government, Deputy Dempsey, for the real progress which has been made so far. I would like to indicate some of the many initiatives which have been taken in the drive to renew local government as opposed to the empty rhetoric of others.

Let me start with the basics. Local government is democratically elected. Its members are elected by direct vote of the people. It was this Government which took action to put the issue to the people by way of referendum last year and gave them an opportunity to afford proper recognition to local government and local democracy. Now, for the first time ever, local government has been given constitutional recognition as an intrinsic, distinct and separate part of our democracy and with a fixed electoral cycle. There can be no more postponing of local elections, so long a feature of the Irish system. Accountability is now the order of the day. I am sure Members would agree that when the fifth year was up and another year was added, I was sometimes happy about that. However, I am pleased and happy to see the end of that practice and that we now have a five year cycle.

One of the first priorities of the Government on taking office was to put in place a proper funding system to secure the necessary resources for the ambitious programme of local government renewal. The local government fund was established by the Local Government Act, 1998. This fund has delivered almost 63% more spending to local authorities since 1997 for their general purposes allocation. The resources available under the new system, estimated at £739 million in 2001, will help local authorities to provide more and better quality services to all sectors of the community and with certainty and confidence to plan for the future. In addition, a "needs and resources" model has been introduced to create a more equitable method of distributing funds to local authorities.

Under the National Development Plan 2000-2006, this Government has delivered the greatest ever capital investment programme to meet the needs of a growing economy and a modern society. Local authorities have a key role in upgrading roads, water, housing and other necessary infrastructure.

The partnership model has been introduced to the local government system by way of strategic policy committees which are now largely established in the vast majority of county and city councils and bring together elected members and representatives of the local sectoral interests. These will facilitate an early and meaningful input by elected members to policy development in key areas of local authority activity and, along with other reforms, will help to rebalance the relationship between councillors and management, and the SPCs will have proper back-up with directors of service.

A further initiative has seen the establishment of county and city development boards. Already they are up and running and planning strategically for their areas. They are led by local government and have representation from the social partners, local development and State agencies. Directors of community and enterprise have been appointed and support staff are in place. Now that the CDBs are operational, the next real challenge is to draw up their strategies for economic, social and cultural development and to implement them successfully. In short, the Government's objective in all of this is that CDBs, operating under the local government umbrella, will ultimately provide greater coher ence in the delivery of public and local development services at local level.

I will turn now to customer service. Here, too, a whole range of initiatives is well under way to promote efficiencies in local government. Among these are a complete revamp of financial management and accounting systems, increased emphasis on corporate planning, improved management structures with directors of service, service indicators to measure performance across local authorities, better use of IT and other innovative measures with financial assistance from the centre, one-stop shops promoted by local authorities to deliver more integrated public services from a single location and with funding provided by the Minister's Department. The overall aim is to equip local authorities with the requisite tools to provide a first class, quality service that is competitive and efficient.

I would also like to take the opportunity to remind the Fine Gael Senators that the Planning and Development Act, 2000, will give us a much improved planning system and greatly enhance the policy functions of the elected members.

I will turn next to the Local Government Bill, 2000. One of the Minister's main concerns for many years has been to revitalise and reinvigorate local government and to maintain confidence and credibility in local democracy. A key aim must be to restore the balance in local government and address the democratic deficit. The Local Government Bill, together with the reform process already under way, which I have outlined, aims to achieve that.

The Bill will provide the statutory framework to move forward. Its aims are to enhance the role of the elected member; support community involvement; modernise local government legislation and provide the framework to promote efficiency and effectiveness; and underpin generally the programme of local government renewal.

The Local Government Bill was published last May. It is the first attempt in over a century to consolidate and modernise local government law and follows directly from last year's constitutional recognition of local government. The people voted for change last year when they accorded constitutional recognition to local government as a distinct part of our democratic system.

A key aim of the Bill is to enhance the role of the elected council. A whole package of interlinked measures is designed to this end. The elected council will develop policy and set the policy parameters through its early intervention via the strategic policy committees, and in association with other relevant sectors. The manager is under a duty to carry into effect the decisions of the elected council and to perform the executive functions within democratically settled policies. The Bill provides an array of mechanisms to enable the council to maintain a proper overview of local authority business, develop, make and steer policy and to oversee the executive. The ending of the dual mandate and the introduction of a directly elected cathaoirleach in 2004 are further key elements of this package.

For members to become properly and fully involved in this way demands practical supports and those are being provided. For example, provision is made in the Bill for the introduction, for the first time, of salary and pension arrangements; continued allowances for members and cathaoirligh, with an allowance for leas-chathaoirligh; better administrative back-up; and improved training and development programmes. The Minister is currently accelerating a training and development programme for all elected members in consultation with their representative associations, which is already under way.

Prior to and immediately following publication of the Bill, the Minister consulted with the three representative associations – AMAI, GCCC and LAMA. At his request they organised a joint seminar in Tralee last July attended by over 600 councillors. The Minister and officials attended this day long seminar. It provided an opportunity for members to be fully briefed by the Minister on the Bill and, more importantly, it enabled the Minister to listen directly to the views of local elected members and to answer their questions.

Subsequently, a joint submission on the Bill from the three associations was made last September. The Minister then held a further round of consultations, meeting with the three associations collectively and with each of them individually. The most recent meetings were held only last month. No one, least of all the local councillors, will dispute the fact that the Minister has willingly engaged in an ongoing and intensive programme of consultation since publication of the Bill, and no doubt the Bill will be a better one as a result of that dialogue. The point has now been reached where Second Stage will be taken early in the next Dáil session. As the House will know, the Minister readily accepted amendments to the Planning Bill where they gave rise to improvements while not departing from the fundamental underlying principles, and he has assured the representative associations that he will adopt a similar approach to the Local Government Bill.

It is clear, therefore, that the period between publication and Second Stage has been used productively and with a specific focus on full dialogue with local elected members, the most intensive consultations ever undertaken by any Minister for the Environment and Local Government. I am certain local elected members appreciate the time devoted to this task by the Minister. Perhaps Fine Gael Senators would prefer the Bill to have been railroaded through the House immediately following publication, with only token consultations. The consultation phase is now complete and we are at the point where con sideration of the Bill by the Oireachtas can now get under way. The Minister is to be commended for the manner in which he has handled the Bill and the wide-ranging consultations which were undertaken.

The Government programme for the renewal of local government is well under way with action across a wide range of fronts. It has seen legislation enacted in each of the past three years and a whole series of initiatives to improve the system of local government are ongoing. It is essential to examine the Local Government Bill against the background which I have outlined and as one component of an overall package. I have every confidence that the Bill will make a major contribution to creating a local government system founded on principles of democracy, partnership and community leadership, a system which is at the heart of local communities.

An intensive consultation phase with the elected members' associations has now been carried out and Senators would appear committed to dealing with the Bill quickly when it comes before this House. I have no doubt that the Minister is looking forward, as I am, to the coming debates on the Bill in the Dáil and the Seanad and to a better system of local government which places elected members at its core, backed up by practical supports. The actions taken by the Minister and the Government speak louder than the hollow words of the Fine Gael motion. I commend the amended motion to the House.

Ms O'Meara

I support the motion by the Fine Gael Senators. Nothing speaks louder than what appears to be the interminable wait for this legislation, trumpeted by the Minister as major reform when he first announced it. Since then, it would appear to have been whittled down, diluted and undermined to the extent that I do not know what will come before us, if we ever get to debate the legislation. We have to read in the media about the Minister's thinking on the Bill and whether the issue of the directly elected chairs will be addressed.

The Minister of State talked about the range and level of consultation with the representative organisations which has taken place. I attended the conference in Tralee last July but that was six months ago.

Mr. Byrne

There has been a lot more since then.

Ms O'Meara

There is no reason the consultation could not have been completed and the Bill brought before us.

Ms Ormonde

Was the Senator in Tralee? We had a full day there.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Senator Ormonde, I believe you are the next speaker.

Ms O'Meara

As Senator Coogan and indeed the Minister of State pointed out, the Minister, Deputy Dempsey, is capable and has shown himself to be willing in the past to take amendments from the floor of the House when a Bill comes before us. I ask the Minister to bring the Bill into the House. He should stop shilly-shallying and delaying and bring the Bill—

Mr. Byrne

The representative organisations did not come back until September.

Ms Ormonde

It will be brought in.

Ms O'Meara

May I speak?

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Senator O'Meara is in possession.

Ms O'Meara

The reform of local government, if it ever happens, will be welcome. The Minister has declared that he is committed to the whole issue of reform but clearly there are thorny issues to be addressed. The role of the councillor, in respect of whom the issue of the dual mandate is critical, must be addressed. Obviously it is the main issue holding up the advancement of this legislation. The Minister's legacy will be determined by the way this legislation, and this issue, is advanced.

The relationship between the local authorities and this House is such that consideration should be given to retaining the dual mandate for Senators because the vast majority of Members of the House are directly elected by members of local authorities and a considerable number of them are also members of local authorities. Some Members are Senators only – that is their political career. I ask the Minister to take on board my point as it could be the solution to this issue.

As a member of two local authorities – Nenagh Urban District Council and north Tipperary County Council – and a Member of Seanad Éireann, I am aware of the demands placed on public representatives who are members of local authorities and the Upper House. It is possible to carry out both roles and the linkage, which is very important, should not be dismissed lightly. The role of the Dáil is different from that of the Seanad and the relationship which exists between Members of the Dáil and local authorities is also very different. Allowing Senators to maintain the right to a dual mandate will enable them to retain their special and unique status, constitutional position and linkage with local authorities. I make this point in a constructive way and as a possible way forward on this difficult issue.

Reference has been made to the changing role of councillors. This role is becoming more onerous and burdensome because of the SPCs. It took a long time to get the SPCs, which are an excellent concept, up and running. While they are important, they place an additional burden on members in terms of meetings. At the first proper meeting of the north Tipperary County Council SPC on environment and planning, of which I am a member, the entire day was spent hearing submissions from a wide range of groups on proposed agricultural by-laws. The discussion was useful and a well informed decision was made. This is a good example of the partnership to which the Minister referred and to which previous Ministers across all political parties were also committed. The meeting was also important for the members of the voluntary and community groups who made submissions, but it placed an onerous responsibility on them. I accept that not all meetings will be as long but given that the SPCs are effectively initiating policy and will make recommendations to the local authority, they will become the foundation in terms of future operational policy at local authority level. This must be recognised in the context of how local government, councillors and the SPCs are resourced.

The Minister referred to the county development board and other initiatives such as the directors of community and enterprise and other directors in the system. All these initiatives are to be commended and supported. A member of staff of the director of community and enterprise in my local authority told me that there are 11 sub-committees on its county development board, all of which have to be serviced. This generates a huge amount of necessary bureaucracy and restructuring, which creates an even greater burden. The Minister is going down the right road in terms of resourcing councillors and restructuring the system. Proper remuneration for councillors must be a part of this because in the future it will be too much to expect someone to run for election to a local authority without the expectation of funding and support. Without this funding and support they will not be able to do the good job the public expects and the wider system needs them to do.

The proposal in relation to the election of chairs is excellent, although I understand the reservation that it will potentially create a powerful office for someone who will be in power for five years and will, presumably, have the resources which go with that position. In this context one thinks of the Lord Mayor of Dublin. If he was directly elected on a popular mandate he would be very influential and more powerful than other public representatives. There is an element of fear of the unknown in regard to this issue. However, it is worth pursuing as it would give people an opportunity to elect a person to a position which is at the same level as the county manager. The Minister is probably taking on board the views of councillors in relation to who should be qualified to run for this position – in other words, someone who has been a member of a local authority for five years is certainly worthy of consideration.

I hope that the consultation phase is completed and that we are now in the action phase. Even if the Government remains in office until 2002 it will run out of time on this legislation, which must be brought before the House and enacted.

Ms Ormonde

I support the amendment to the motion. I do not understand the motion which condemns the Government for its lack of progress in advancing local government legislation. The Minister of State outlined the progress made since the Minister took over responsibility for local government. I do not want to sound like a broken record but it is easy to highlight the measures taken – for example, the Local Government Bill which increased the funding for local authorities and the planning legislation which gave new powers to local authorities. These measures clearly indicate the progress which has been made in streamlining the planning process and creating better guidelines on planning applications and the role of An Bord Pleanála. If I had my way, the legislation would have gone further in terms of the role of An Bord Pleanála.

The new strategic policy committees – SPCs – were set up to reflect the views of local elected representatives and people who know their areas. This is the first time the need for a co-ordinated approach to local government has been acknowledged. The Minister must be congratulated on his understanding of how local government should work. I have been a county councillor for 16 years and this is the first Minister who understands the ethos of local government, the powers of members and how they should be implemented. He will introduce the necessary legislation. I do not understand how the Senators opposite could condemn the Government for its lack of progress.

We have the SPCs, while elections will be held every five years. Everyone will know when the next election will be and will be able to work towards it. The new planning legislation will be brought forward. There had to be dialogue and widespread consultation on the issue of directly elected mayors. That was a huge issue. The Minister went to Tralee and met representatives from three organisations. This matter was investigated and thorough consultations took place as to how best we could move forward. The Minister is doing everything he can. He has agreed that five years' experience of representation will be a condition for directly elected mayors.

Of course the issue of the dual mandate must be thrashed out and people will be affected by it. We will make a decision at the end of the day that this is the way to go forward. The most important point is that there will be a salary, allowances and a pension scheme for councillors from next February onwards after this legislation is enacted. This must happen. The role of the councillor has increased enormously over the past year. The Minister has a great empathy for this area and he reflects the needs of councillors, particularly their feeling that they are not being represented here.

Councillors are the grassroots of all political parties. If we did not have them none of us would be here. There would be very few TDs if we did not have councillors to back them. It is high time that the esteem we have for councillors should be reflected by providing a salary and pension scheme. This Minister has been very sympathetic. He understands what it is like to be a county councillor because he came up through the ranks.

Fine Gael is out of order in suggesting that there has been a lack of progress. The Minister has made a statement. The Taoiseach stated in response to a question from Deputy Gilmore in the Dáil that the Bill will come in next February. All the signs of that are there. It is reflected in the Minister's speech this evening and in his response to the motion. We will have fine legislation which will give councillors an enhanced role in society. It will also make them feel they are acknowledged for the work that they do.

I support the amendment. Much progress has been made over the past two years and next February we will be very pleased to come here and congratulate the Minister on the way he has brought forward this Bill.

Mrs. Jackman

I welcome the Minister of State to the House. I was amazed at the amendment tabled by Fianna Fáil. Senator Ann Ormonde has been very passionate in her defence of the Minister. As late as 27 November Limerick County Council's agenda included a letter from the General Council of County Councils pushing for a discussion on the Local Government Bill in order to expedite it. I had never seen a motion from the general council listed on the county council's main agenda. It might be included as correspondence but it would not be part of the main agenda. The general council stated that there should be a submission from local authority members. Perhaps the Minister should have moved earlier. September is a long time ago and it is now the end of the year. It is months since the initial drive took place, yet this motion appears on the council's agenda. Where is the urgency on the Government's side if the general council must do all the pushing?

The motion states: "That Seanad Éireann condemns the Government on its lack of progress in advancing local government legislation." It will be February before this legislation reaches the Dáil and I do not know when it will reach this House. I am not sure what stage it is at now. We can be sure it will be well into 2001 before we deal with it. Members on the Government side have stated on numerous occasions that there must be recognition for the great work done, for little or nothing, by local authority members.

The second part of the motion contains the phrase, "particularly in view of the changing role of local government members.". I was elected in 1985 and the role of a local councillor has changed enormously since then. Although the SPCs have been formed in Limerick County Council we have not yet met. That is not pro gress. I am not saying this is the Minister's fault but an industrial problem exists. This pace is symptomatic of local government. We are continually waiting.

A humorous reference was made to a snail. To a degree people are taunting us about it. The snail was referred to in the Minister's speech because he knows it is very appropriate to use that reference when talking about this legislation. We do not have the Kildare bypass because of a breed of snail, although that may not be the only reason it has not been approved. People talk a lot about park and ride facilities. Kildare is the biggest car park in the country because traffic comes to a halt. I am sure Senator Quill will agree with me because she travels on the N7. Perhaps she has the sense to travel by train. While sitting in Kildare town you can do a lot of thinking because it takes a long time to get through the town. Kildare could be called a park and ride centre because you cannot get out of it. The Minister for the Environment and Local Government is to blame for this. I know Dúchas is involved and there is the snail issue.

I wish to draw attention to the part of the amendment that refers to the national development plan. The biggest problem affecting local authorities is the lack of co-ordination. There seems to be plenty of money now, although Limerick County Council has seen very little of it. I do not think there is one Member on either side of the House who has a good word to say about the National Roads Authority. There is a lack of co-ordination between the NRA and local councils. We must implore them to visit us. After many letters sent to them by the appropriate local authority they visit only once every two years. I cannot see where co-ordination exists.

The Nenagh bypass has just been opened and it is a single lane carriageway. What if a new dual carriageway was proposed between Nenagh and Limerick? Where else would you see such a mishmash, linking a single carriageway to a dual carriageway? People will say that we did not have the money to make it a dual carriageway and now the national development plan will provide the money for it. I cannot believe that the Minister could preside over such a failure of co-ordination.

Another example is the Kildare fiasco. It takes me four hours to travel from Limerick to Dublin. Where is all the great planning of our roads infrastructure? I am talking about national roads into which all the money is supposed to have been ploughed. My local authority has completely ignored the environs because county roads needed tremendous improvement. Over successive periods, very little increased funding has been given to Limerick County Council. The county roads have been improved at the expense of the environment.

In the amendment a point is made about land use planning. I wish to talk about a severe lack of planning. We all look for sustainable development and wish to see proper zoning. In my area of Castletroy, and I am sure this problem is repli cated in other cities, thousands of planning applications for houses are being submitted under the residential density guidelines. I taught English and I understood that the word "guidelines" meant guidelines. I do not see how they can dictate.

Thousands of houses are being built with no infrastructure being provided to take additional traffic to the N24, commonly known as the Tipperary Road, or the N7 which is the Dublin road. It now takes me one hour and 15 minutes outside peak time to travel five miles from my house to Limerick city if I am lucky. You can forget about travelling at peak times. Where is the land use planning? Where is the co-ordination between local authorities and the Minister?

I wish there was affordable housing for everyone. I know there is a demand for houses but we should not cater for that demand at the expense of destroying the quality of life for existing residents in an area. There is such congestion that people who travel from the mid-west or Dublin to Limerick regularly cannot get near the city as a result of a lack on planning in terms of infrastructural development.

A sum of £120 million was allocated to the Limerick main drainage scheme. When the Minister was asked why funding had not been allocated for water and sewerage schemes in towns and villages around the county we were told money had been allocated but it had been devoted to the main drainage scheme. One cannot build in a high pressure zone because potentially too many septic tanks would pollute drinking water, which was referred to on the Order of Business. The more I think about these issues, the more I think I am in a maze from which I cannot escape. The high pressure zone around Limerick means one cannot build within eight miles of the city centre because of the proliferation of septic tanks.

I accept that but there are only two options in terms of house building. More housing can be built in a congested area with few if any services. Castletroy is the largest town in the county and it does not even have a Garda station. The other option is supposedly to build houses in small towns and villages to keep rural depopulation at bay but this cannot be done because small water and sewerage schemes have not been undertaken.

Wherever I go I receive representations and I have had a negative role to play as a local authority member over the past few months. I am asked why councillors are needed if I tell delegations that developments cannot take place for different reasons. Local authority members are taking the brunt of criticism from the public because of the lack of planning and co-ordination between the Minister for the Environment and Local Government, local authorities and the NRA under the national development plan.

With regard to value for money, accessibility and keeping the customer happy, because of the pressure on local authorities, the only way an individual can communicate with a member of staff is through written correspondence and he or she is lucky if he or she receives a reply in time. If one makes a telephone call one gets through to voicemail which says that because of the pressures of work the staff cannot return calls but will do their best. That is replicated throughout the country.

Given the great enthusiasm there was for local government reform it is extremely sad that at the end of 2000 I feel I was more relevant and did more for the community when I was first elected to a local authority in 1985 than I am now.

Mr. Chambers

Senator Jackman referred to problems in regard to spatial policy and the NRA and they must be addressed so that there is proper co-ordination and planning throughout Ireland, whether at local authority level or through national agencies. We await the national spatial policy which is important and is needed. It will outline future planning and development and will determine the approach to be taken to tackle the imbalances in this area. The NRA needs to be more accountable in terms of its co-ordination with local authorities and good local government is also necessary.

I support the amendment because the Government has endeavoured to support, develop and strengthen the role of local government. It has recognised the legal position of elected representatives and it has assured and determined their importance at district electoral level. The present Minister, unlike his predecessors in several Governments, has given a firm commitment in the legislation he enacted to strengthen local government. I have served as a local authority member since 1977 and it is the first time any Government has ensured a decent respectable future for elected representatives.

In doing so the Minister has laid responsibilities heavily on their shoulders. They must manage their affairs well and they have been given powers and finances to properly manage local authorities to ensure efficiency, improved customer relationships and a return on the investment in local government. He has provided an increase of more than 100% in funding for local authorities under the different programme headings. He has introduced a new funding system whereby each local authority can keep the money it raises through motor taxation. He has expanded the role of public representatives and has introduced efficiencies within councils to ensure each section is spending within its budget and undertaking its responsibilities.

The Minister has also introduced one stop shops for delivering services to the public, which is central to the development of local government services. He has encouraged this concept and local services have been decentralised in some counties. There is co-ordination between partnership boards and SPCs which bring together the different mechanisms in various sections to ensure a more secure and proper service to the public and to address disadvantage in terms of transportation, housing, estate management and other areas of responsibility for local authorities. They were a burden on them in the past because provision was never made to address these issues.

Local authorities can avail of public private partnerships to address housing needs and their affordable housing commitments as a result of the legislation enacted by the Minister. The county council is the largest employer in County Mayo and that applies in other counties. Mayo County Council has a budget of £112 million and employs 1,160. It is playing a pivotal, central role in balanced, sustainable rural development.

The reports on the national spatial strategy are interesting. A total of 500 towns are on the verge of major improvement but investment and resources are needed to secure their growth so that people will settle and work in them. This will also proffer more responsibility on county councils as they address the needs of these towns.

It is time county councillors were remunerated for their work and public service. Many people devoted a great deal of their time and service to political life in the past. They received little remuneration and in some cases a substantial burden was placed on their families and those who cared for their families. The public is prepared to accept that local authority members should be paid for their service and they should be accountable to the public in this regard. They should be properly remunerated and recognised for the work they do and the responsibilities they have within their counties. The public is prepared to accept that and it is in the interests of local democracy that it is done.

The dual mandate should be removed. As a long-serving local authority member, I understand the background to it, but if local authorities are to function properly in future there should be three separate roles in the Dáil, Seanad or local authorities. Everyone should stand on his or her own merit. It would provide greater opportunities for more people and would create a better system. That is the way forward. Everyone should be properly looked after in their positions and they should hold one position only.

There is a great future for local authorities. The Minister has the commitment to introduce the Local Government Bill and to see it through to ensure local government is empowered for the future and that the needs and responsibilities of local authority members and the development of their counties is properly legislated for. I am satisfied the legislation the Government will bring forward will enhance the role of councillors and make them a pivotal part of local democracy.

Miss Quill

I support the amendment and acknowledge the amount of legislation and reform the Government has introduced in the past three years. They are all major moves in the right direction. In terms of function and finance, a great many functions have been devolved to local government. In the context of this debate, it is a good time for us to examine the use local government has made of those functions and additional finance. Sometimes reforms look very well on paper but it must be asked how effective they are in practice.

I draw attention to the Waste Management Act under which a function was devolved to local government. Local authorities have been very slow in developing modern and up-to-date waste management plans for their areas. A great deal is left to be desired in their exercise of that obligation, yet it seems the Government is powerless to do anything because, under the Act, the obligation is on local authorities.

Let us take waste minimisation as an example. I know that more than 50% of what I put in my bin every week is made of paper, yet there are no proper facilities or infrastructure for recycling in Ireland. I mention that in the context of the debate because it is something about which I feel very strongly and I am glad the Minister of State is present to hear what I have to say. Progress towards proper recycling of paper is at a standstill at present. The fluctuating nature of the business means we will probably never have a proper recycling industry in Ireland unless central Government is prepared to give recognition to the importance of recycling in the spectrum of waste management and is prepared to subsidise the recycling of paper when required. That is the first point I put to the Minister for his consideration.

The implementation of waste management plans is very slow. A debate is raging on whether to use landfill or incineration. Whole sections of the country are in open rebellion and mutiny against having landfills located in their areas, yet they produce increasing amounts of waste. That is a contradiction. Stronger leadership must come from central Government and we must decide what we will do with the vast mountains of waste we produce. Having made that decision, we should stick with it. Bismarck once said that a bad decision was better than no decision. We have no decision at present and, therefore, we have the worst of all worlds. I put that to the Minister of State as an objective for central Government in its relationship with local government.

There is a crisis in local government despite the reforms introduced by the Government. There is a crisis of understaffing in many key departments and in the planning departments of almost all local authorities in Ireland. That must be addressed quickly because the public, the consumer of local government services, is the first to notice that the quality of local government services has not kept pace with the quality of services delivered by the private sector. The gap between the two widens by the day. If local government is to claim the respect of citizens, ratepayers and taxpayers, something must be done about that.

Companies in the private sector pursue quality assurance and provide a service with a quality assurance tag attached to it. That is not hap pening with local government services, although those services are often the ones which touch our daily lives in the most intimate and neighbourly ways, such as the services of refuse collection, keeping our streets free of litter and administering the Planning Acts. Local government provides a whole range of services which care for the built environment and provide amenities, facilities and green spaces for old and young alike. It is a range of services which determines in the most definite way the quality of our lives. Those services are not being delivered at the standard or level they ought to be. That is something we must examine carefully.

In a world threatened with globalisation on such a massive scale as to frighten us, the only real counter measure we have against the worst and most ugly effects of globalisation is to strengthen local government and improve the quality and standard of local services. That must be done without delay and the Minister must give leadership and direction in doing that.

It is high time the dual mandate was abolished. I am someone who has enjoyed such a mandate for many years. However, I see the effect it has on a weekly agenda for county and city managers. People like me are only available on Mondays and Fridays, with the result that key meetings, which could and should take place during the week, are telescoped into those two days. That is just one of the by-products of the operation of the dual mandate. Given the experience we have and if we are serious about improving local government, we must abolish the dual mandate. I am glad the Government favours its abolition and that it will be central to the Bill in the pipeline which, it is hoped, will come before the House early in the new year.

If local government is to flourish in Ireland, there must be strong elected local leadership. Arising from that, there should be elected lord mayors or mayors in our cities who would be elected for a fixed term of office and who would have executive functions. They would be answerable and accountable to the people who elected them and, it is hoped, they would have a mandate to carry out certain works in their areas in a given period. There would be an obligation on them, if they wanted to be re-elected, to make sure they were done. That is what is really lacking. Comparing local government in France with that in Ireland, it will be seen that that type of local elected leadership is lacking. We have a management system which has served the country well but we need to make a change now. I look forward to the Local Government Bill being taken, I hope, in the new year.

Mr. Coghlan

We are all concerned about the changing role of local government and the enhanced role which has been promised for years. We have become fed up with the lip service that has been paid for so long to enhancing the role of the local councillor who is democratically elected to represent his or her local community. There have been some changes but teething problems have arisen from them.

I would dismiss the Government's amendment No. 1, bar the end of it which refers to the publication of the Local Government Bill and restates some of the things in our motion. It states that it wants–

to enhance the role of the elected members and place them at the heart of local democracy and to provide additional practical supports such as salary/pension arrangements and other measures to reinforce the distinctive nature of local government as now recognised in our Constitution.

We are ad idem on that point. I do not doubt the Minister, Deputy Dempsey's, bona fides because at least he began with a reformist's zeal. Some of that has been knocked out of him, however, if not altogether by his own backbenchers, perhaps by other forces that are at work. Members on both sides of this House in particular would agree that as part of the enhanced role and the increased work load there should be due and proper recompense. The time for putting in place proper salary and pension arrangements and better allowances for members of local authorities is long overdue. Their position has become virtually a full-time one.

Mr. Cassidy

Absolutely.

Mr. Coghlan

While both sides of the House agree on that, it is difficult for us to understand the reasons for the delay in introducing such measures. That is why Senator Coogan tabled this motion. I read through the speech by the Minister of State, Deputy Byrne, but it does not tell us any reason for the delay in bringing forward what has been promised. Perhaps some speakers on the Government side will tell us why we have had to wait and, indeed, are still waiting.

I agree with the Minister of State's comments about the key aims of the Bill and the role of the council. I was glad to note that the Minister of State said the Local Government Bill, which was published last May, would be introduced immediately after Christmas. Is that correct?

An Cathaoirleach

Yes.

Mr. Coghlan

Thank you, a Chathaoirligh. Where would a freshman like me be without you? The Minister of State also stated: "The ending of the dual mandate and the introduction of a directly elected cathaoirleach in 2004 are further key elements of this package." I very much agree with the first part of that statement concerning the ending of the dual mandate and I am sure the Members opposite do also. We also subscribe to the view of one person, one job because they are different roles after all. I respect the fact, however, that some people might have, if not quite a conscientious objection, then some valid reasons of their own for thinking otherwise, but in the main we would all agree on that point. I thought the Minister was supposed to table an amendment concerning the directly elected cathaoirleach, but is there some confusion over this matter? If so, perhaps we will hear about it from the Minister in his reply.

The planning Bill is major legislation which is to the Minister's credit, despite all the teething problems associated with it. The section dealing with the acquisition, at agricultural land values, of one fifth of land that is zoned residential, was held to be constitutional. However, councils do not know fully how to deal with this issue. I invite further comment from the Government on this point. I am not aware that any councils have, as yet, devised a policy on it. Has the Minister or the Department issued any directives on that point? Something along those lines would be helpful to councils.

Our primary concern is the passage of the Bill and its full implementation. Nothing further can be done to enhance the role of councillors and improve councils without the passage of the Bill. Is that not right?

Mr. Cassidy

That is agreed.

Mr. Coghlan

We all have the utmost respect for the people who have given of their time so dedicatedly over such a long period and with very little reward in the past – in fact, often with no reward. In many instances they have suffered great loss both personally, from the time consuming nature of the business which distances them from their families, and financially through losses in business because of their dedication to duty and the long hours they have put in to serving their local communities. I plead with the Government for the immediate introduction of the Bill and its timely passage through the Oireachtas without it being raped, pillaged or rent asunder in any way. Hopefully that will not happen.

Mr. O'Brien

Listening to the latter half of Senator Coghlan's speech it is clear that he is in full support of the Minister, Deputy Dempsey, and the Local Government Bill.

Mr. Coghlan

There is latitude for you.

Mr. O'Brien

I hope that when the Bill reaches the Dáil his party will also be in full support of it. When it comes before this House, I hope Senator Coghlan and his party will be in full support of it also. The Senator is right to say it is high time we had proper salaries and pensions for councillors, and I am delighted there is agreement on that point. It is too bad, however, that such a motion had to be moved when there is so much agreement between the parties concerning the import ance of the Bill. The Minister must be congratulated on introducing the long awaited Local Government Bill. The fact that it did not come before the Houses of the Oireachtas before Christmas was, as the Minister stated last Friday at the General Council of County Councils' meeting in Clontarf Castle, due to the pressure of other legislation coming through the Dáil in the short period before the recess.

The Minister is to be commended for engaging in wide consultation concerning the Bill following its publication. On numerous occasions he met AMAI, the General Council of County Councils and LAMA. Earlier this year, at a conference in Tralee, the Minister spent a full day with the three organisations as well as 600 councillors who were present. The amount of consultation he had with the various bodies was wide ranging and the Bill will be the better for it.

The role of county councillors has become so important that they are entitled to a proper salary and pension scheme. I first became a member of a local authority in 1979. In the intervening 21 years the workload of county councillors has increased dramatically to the point where they are now full-time politicians.

I fully support the amendment and congratulate the Minister once again on what will be wonderful legislation which I hope will be introduced early in the new year and will have a speedy passage into law through the Dáil and Seanad. It is regrettable it cannot be introduced sooner. The Minister is to be congratulated and commended.

Mr. Moylan

I support the amendment to the motion and thank the Minister of State, Deputy Jacob, for attending. In particular, I thank the Minister for the Environment and Local Government, Deputy Dempsey, for the time spent meeting the relevant organisations. He has met the AMAI, LAMA and the General Council of County Councils on many occasions and has been available at all times to listen to the views of public representatives, be they Oireachtas Members or county and urban councillors, on the proposed Bill.

The amendment outlines the many developments which have taken place in recent years under the auspices of the Minister. This should be acknowledged by the Opposition. Senator Jackman mentioned that development is out of control in County Limerick. As a county councillor, I was very surprised by this as developments are governed by the county development plan put in place by county councillors. It spells out the types of development which may take place and their density. I was very surprised, therefore, that Senator Jackman appeared to say that developments were not in accordance with the county development plan.

The motion is probably the result of leaks to a Sunday newspaper that there is no support in the parliamentary party for the Minister's Bill. We will find, however, as soon as it is introduced that it has support. Because of the extended summer holiday period and the carry over of work, through no one's fault, a number of Bills have had to be deferred to the spring, and the Minister's Bill happens to be one of them.

The main areas of concern are directly elected mayors or chairpersons and the dual mandate. In this context, the Minister of State, Deputy Byrne, indicated that the Minister would be prepared to consider amendments which would improve the Bill. This is a good way to proceed. The point was well made by Senator O'Meara that the dual mandate for Members of Seanad Éireann should be considered given that they are elected by county councillors. Let us be honest and fair. If Senators are to be deprived of membership of local authorities, they should be paid the same salaries as Deputies. The matter has to be considered in that light. If they are to be required to be present full time why should they be paid only 60% of a Deputy's salary? In that context the point made by Senator O'Meara was very relevant and must be considered.

We should call a spade a spade and consider what the salary of an elected county councillor should be. We are probably three years away from the next local elections. Existing members of local authorities are aware of the difficulties in being a public representative and holding down a full-time job. They will have to ask themselves if they should continue to give hugely of their time as public representatives at the expense of their employments. To ensure they do a proper job, a substantial salary must, therefore, be mentioned early to enable them to plan ahead. Some are also members of health boards and vocational education committees and many of their sub-bodies as well as SPCs. They are, in effect, full-time local public servants. Those who are self-employed, in farming for example, have to pay someone to work on their behalf. All these points were very well made by a number of Senators and they should be considered.

Some local authorities are not accepting responsibility in the area of waste management in particular. County enterprise boards and Leader groups should grant aid those who are prepared to initiate recycling projects to ensure we do not continue to dispose of almost all our waste in landfill sites. We should recycle as much as possible.

An Cathaoirleach

I understand the Leader of the House wishes to make a brief contribution.

Mr. Cassidy

As the person in whose name the amendment was tabled to the motion, I wish to be associated with everything that has been said in relation to the proposed Bill. The job of a county councillor is now almost a full-time job. There has to be, therefore, a proper salary for the work done and the service provided. With the agreement of Senators, we hope to give the Bill, when introduced by the Minister, a safe passage through the House within 14 days. Senators on both sides of the House will agree that the salaries and remuneration of the public representatives in question should be payable from the date of its publication, given that they have to give of their time to the full in the new structures which have been put in place, including SPCs and county development boards. The least we can do in the Celtic tiger economy is acknowledge the efforts of county councillors, city councillors and commissioners who have given of their time voluntarily during the years. We should ensure the people who have kept the democratic system going at local authority level get true recognition.

Mr. Coogan

It is my honest belief that if one were to ask Members of the Government parties in the Seanad if they concur with this motion they would say yes. If the Minister has sense, he will recognise that the motion was put down to get the Government to move the Bill forward and to secure a guarantee that it will be before either the Dáil or the Seanad in the second week of February.

Mr. Cassidy

Yes, it will be in the Dáil.

Mr. Coogan

We have no objection to initiating it in the Seanad. The planning Bill was initiated here. We put down amendments and the Minister agreed to them. He acknowledged that our amendments were constructive. We would take the same approach to the Local Government Bill.

There are aspects of the Bill, however, with which I have a difficulty. One is the proposed direct elections. When the concept of direct elections was first mentioned, I was willing to examine it on the basis that the directly elected mayors or chairpersons would have equal authority with, if not more than, management. They would be responsible to the public and the public could decide after three years – I do not agree with the five year term – that they are not carrying out their duties and throw them out. That was the basis on which I was willing to consider it. What we have instead, as any councillor will point out, is a proposal which will result in directly elected single issue candidates, be they footballers, singers or people for or against incineration. A modification was made to change the term to five years. I do not know if that will stand up in law.

Mr. Cassidy

Does the Senator agree with that?

Mr. Coogan

I do not agree with it. I do not agree with direct elections when they have no purpose. Show me where there would be a benefit to the public in this person being elected directly. It is a ball of smoke. It simply says to the public you are getting a greater role in voting for somebody but they will not have any greater responsibility or authority when they are elected.

The Government could reconstruct what we have at present. It has worked effectively for 100 years and could continue to work in the future. Instead, there is tampering with the proposed Bill. Let nobody be fooled by the Minister of State, Deputy Byrne's, comment that the Bill was delayed because of consultation. It was not. It was delayed because there is a difficulty within the Fianna Fáil Party.

It is not my job to discuss what happens in Fianna Fáil but one of that party's Senators referred earlier to leaks. They are not leaks. Everybody knows what is happening. We know how many people are against aspects of this Bill and what is really delaying it. It is not consultation. Consultations are an excuse. The Government is hiding the problem by claiming to be consulting. Why not consult at the Fianna Fáil Party meeting scheduled for tomorrow? Members should put it to the Minister that he either initiates his Bill or Fine Gael will initiate its own Bill. We will then see how supportive of local government this Government is.

Mr. Cassidy

The Senator's party was in Government for three years and did nothing.

Mr. Coogan

I believe the Minister has a commitment to local government but what he has done is not—

Mr. Cassidy

The Senator's party did nothing.

An Cathaoirleach

Senator Coogan without interruption. The Senator's time is limited.

Mr. Cassidy

Deputy Dempsey is the best Minister for the Environment and Local Government this country has had for 20 years.

Mr. Coogan

I was generous enough to give the Senator time when he sought it. I ask him to let me finish in the time I have left.

I was shocked when I saw the Minister of State, Deputy Byrne, taking this debate. He is responsible for the marine, not local government and the environment. It was a slap in the teeth for all Members that the Minister refused to come to this debate. He does not believe this motion should be passed but if he examined it, he would support it. All we are trying to do is ensure that every local authority member, people who have worked in their own time with commitment and using their own skills, is paid. There is nothing wrong with that. They should be paid adequately and given a pension fund and proper facilities to put them on a professional basis. That is all we seek.

Amendment put.

Tá

Bohan, Eddie.Callanan, Peter.Cassidy, Donie.Chambers, Frank.Cox, Margaret.Cregan, John.Dardis, John.Farrell, Willie.Finneran, Michael.Fitzgerald, Liam.Fitzgerald, Tom.Fitzpatrick, Dermot.

Gibbons, Jim.Glennon, Jim.Glynn, Camillus.Kett, Tony.Leonard, Ann.Lydon, Don.Moylan, Pat.O'Brien, Francis.Ó Fearghail, Seán.Ormonde, Ann.Quill, Máirín.Walsh, Jim.

Níl

Burke, Paddy.Caffrey, Ernie.Coghlan, Paul.Coogan, Fintan.Cosgrave, Liam T.Costello, Joe.Cregan, Denis (Dino).Doyle, Joe.Hayes, Tom.Henry, Mary.

Jackman, Mary.Keogh, Helen.McDonagh, Jarlath.Manning, Maurice.O'Dowd, Fergus.O'Meara, Kathleen.Ridge, Thérèse.Ross, Shane.Taylor-Quinn, Madeleine.

Tellers: Tá, Senators T. Fitzgerald and Gibbons; Níl, Senators Burke and T. Hayes.

Amendment declared carried.

Motion, as amended, agreed to.