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Seanad Éireann díospóireacht -
Thursday, 8 Feb 2001

Vol. 165 No. 2

Nice Summit: Statements.

I wish to thank the House for inviting me to open this debate on the outcome of the European Council which was held in Nice last December. I congratulate you, a Chathaoirligh, for arranging the debate. It is vital that there should be the fullest possible discussion of the Treaty of Nice which is very important for the future development of the European Union. I intend to outline in some detail the main aspects of the treaty, to place it in context and to say a little about the Government's approach to the next items on the European agenda.

It is now a little over eight weeks since the Nice Council ended. We spent four long days and nights negotiating the new treaty, setting a record which I hope and expect will not be challenged during my time as Taoiseach. Having reflected over the past eight weeks, I remain satisfied that the agreement reached was a good deal for Ireland and Europe, despite the claims I have seen that the summit was badly handled and that the outcome of the negotiations lacked coherence and ambition. These criticisms are unrealistic and miss the point. At Nice, we had a very difficult task. Some of the issues on the table were so difficult that the previous Intergovernmental Conference, at Amsterdam in 1997, had failed to take a decision. Against this background, reaching agreement was a very substantial achievement.

The details of the treaty may seem dry and technical but we should not forget its broad political context. The objective of the negotiations was to prepare the Union's institutions for enlargement. That objective has now been achieved. It was essential that we came away from Nice sig nalling to the accession candidates that the way ahead was now clear. I will return to the enlargement at the conclusion of this statement, but first I want to set out the main elements of the treaty.

The agenda of the Intergovernmental Conference at the outset comprised the Amsterdam "leftovers"– the size and composition of the Commission and the reweighting of the votes in the Council, and the extension of qualified majority voting as well as some related institutional issues. Flexibility, or enhanced co-operation as it is also not known, was added to the agenda during the process.

The Government approached the negotiations in a positive light. We wanted to make a genuine contribution to the development of a Union capable of meeting the challenges of enlargement. However, in doing so, we also sought to ensure that the essential characteristics of the Union were maintained. Ireland has, over the years, benefited from the ways in which the Community's institutional balance and unique decision-making processes protect the interests of small states.

Ireland sees the Commission as central to that institutional balance. As I made clear in advance, a key negotiating objective at the Intergovernmental Conference was to ensure that the Commission would remain both effective and representative. As is well known, a number of the larger member states were concerned about the ability of the Commission to undertake its task effectively with 27 or more members and argued strongly for agreements now on a sharp reduction in its size. Smaller states, including Ireland, felt that at this stage it would be damaging and premature to make such a drastic change. I argued that we could not anticipate the nature of developments in the Union over the next decade and so should not now make a definitive decision.

What emerged was a very satisfactory compromise. Some movement was required on all sides but I believe we have protected our basic interests. As we wanted, the powers of the Commission President over the management and organisation of the Commission were increased. Furthermore, it was agreed that all member states will for now continue to be entitled to nominate a Commissioner, as will new members when they join. Only when the Union reaches 27 members will there be a review of its composition. The review will set a lower ceiling but the arrangements to be agreed must be based on the total equality of member states. There is, therefore, no question of smaller member states being relegated to a secondary position. Whatever is agreed, Ireland will have the same exact rights as any other member state.

It was a major achievement to nail down acceptance of the principle of equal rotation. Ensuring parity on the Commission between all member states, however large or small, could not have been guaranteed on a future occasion. That was something of which all the small and medium-sized countries were certain. If we had waited seven or eight years and had come back to it, we would not have got equal rotation. I have not met anybody or even read anything by anyone who has argued that we could have. I think that was unanimous in all the parliamentary debates in January which I have seen.

On the second related Amsterdam "left-over", the reweighting of votes in the Council, we adopted a relatively flexible approach. I wanted to ensure that a qualified majority would require the support of a majority of states and a majority of the Union's population.

As I anticipated, this turned out to be one of the most protracted and difficult parts of the negotiations. The compromise which was eventually agreed, while complex, will not make it harder in practice to reach agreement on specific proposals, as some have said. The reality is that positions within the Council on any given issue rarely if ever divide on a large-small basis. From an Irish point of view, the drop in our share of the total vote, already inevitable in an enlarged Union, will be minor.

In an enlarged Union of 27 members, a substantial decrease in the number of areas where unanimity will continue to apply is a prerequisite for the efficient functioning of the Union. In recognition of this and taking account of our other negotiating priorities, we adopted a strongly supportive position on the extension of QMV and, in advance of Nice, we made a determined and successful effort to reduce our list of exceptions to a minimum. In the end, the Union was able to agree to 30 articles moving to QMV.

Our positive approach was demonstrated by a proposal we made to provide a clear legal base for the Union's social protection committee. We made this proposal to give further momentum to the work begun at the Lisbon European Council on Social Protection and felt that it complemented the steps taken in relation to social exclusion in Amsterdam. I was pleased this was agreed in Nice.

Contrary to what some people suggest, moving away from unanimity, or the so-called national veto, as it is referred to in some countries, does not in most cases threaten a country's basic interests or national sovereignty. When it comes to votes on a QMV basis, in the majority of cases, Ireland has been on the "yes" side and use of QMV has made it easier for us and like-minded partners to get a decision we want. More importantly, QMV has enabled Europe to build a single market and common policies which have been in the long-term interests of all the member states of the Union. Ireland has, of course, benefited greatly from these developments.

There are, however, instances where it is appropriate to insist on unanimity. This is the course we took in relation to taxation. I am pleased we held our line on this, despite constant and heavy pressure from the Presidency to accept QMV. It is not that we oppose common action on some aspects of tax, such as anti-fraud measures, it is just that we believe that there needs to be a guarantee that such action needs to respect the fundamental requirements of all members. Moreover, on the basis of our experience, we are convinced that there needs to be an openness within the Union to a number of alternative socio-economic models and taxation philosophies, taking account of the traditions and situations of the member states.

The Treaty of Nice also includes provisions which make it easier for sub-groups of member states to co-operate more closely on a given matter if they so wish. These provisions will be subject to a range of safeguards which will protect the rights of all states to opt into or stay out of such arrangements and will ensure that key policies of the Union, for example, in relation to the Single Market, will not be damaged. I would like to make it clear that Ireland is not opposed in principle to closer co-operation. Ireland would not be adverse to participation in such co-operation where we felt that it would be in the national and European interest.

While closer co-operation may apply to aspects of the implementation of the Common Foreign and Security Policy, we and other like-minded states ensured that military and defence matters are specifically excluded. While I am on this issue, I want to make it clear that only changes in the Nice treaty relating to foreign, security or defence issues are of a minor and purely technical kind. They in no way alter the scope or basis of the EU's capacity and competence in this area. All over Europe, even parties which have been sceptical about the EU recognise that the Nice treaty is directed towards enlargement and will accept it for this reason. The biggest potential losers from any scare-mongering about Nice would be precisely those peoples and countries which suffered most from the Cold War. This would be unforgivable.

In the context of enlargement, it was clear from the outset that every existing member state, except for Germany which has been under-represented relative to its population, would have to accept a reduction in its representation at the European Parliament so as to accommodate the accession states. In the event, I am satisfied with the outcome that will leave us with 12 MEPs in an enlarged Union. While it was important that all member states had to play their part in accommodating new member states, it was imperative that the burden be shared on an equitable basis among member states. The proposal from the European Parliament would have involved a drop to nine MEPs for Ireland.

Nice also agreed changes to the working methods and composition of the Courts of Justice and of First Instance, the Court of Auditors, the Committee of the Regions and the Economic and Social Affairs Committee which will prepare them for an increase in the size of the Union. We were happy to support these changes.

With regard to ratification of the treaty, I have said from the outset that our approach to the negotiations was to see the best deal for Ireland and the Union and thereafter to consider the procedures necessary for ratification. The question of whether a referendum will be required is under urgent consideration. The Government will take a final decision when the formal text of the Nice treaty has been finalised by EU legal experts and the advice of the Attorney General has been received. We will soon be in a position to take that decision. However, I have asked that officials ensure that the preparatory work necessary for a referendum is put in train to give the Government the full range of options as to timing. As I have indicated elsewhere, I continue to think it is most likely that a referendum will be held and that it would be best to move sooner rather than later. I am confident that the people, if called upon to vote, will make clear their solidarity with the enlargement candidates and their continuing support for the development of the EU.

Looking to the future, at Nice we also agreed a Declaration on the Future of the Union, establishing a process for taking forward issues such as the Charter of Fundamental Rights, the Catalogue of Competences, the interrelationship between national parliaments and the Union and the restructuring of the treaties. There is to be a further intergovernmental conference in 2004. The Swedish and Belgian Presidencies are to initiate preliminary consideration of the agenda and the modalities by which it will be taken forward. At the conclusion of a fully inclusive consultation process there will be a further declaration at the EU Council in December 2001 under the Belgian Presidency which will provide a road map for the work to be carried out by way of preparation for the 2004 conference.

These issues raise very important questions about the future direction of the EU. Since Nice, a number of interesting and important contributions have been made. The Government believes it is vital that Ireland plays its part in this debate and to enable us to do so we will be considering how best to facilitate wide ranging national consideration of these issues in the run-up to 2004. It will be necessary in this process to ask ourselves quite searching questions about the kind of European Union we want to see.

At the same time, and here I agree with Prime Minister Persson of Sweden, we must not allow preparation for another Intergovernmental Conference in 2004, and a debate about constitutional and institutional issues, to distract from the major practical tasks facing the Union in the years ahead.

For example, next January will see the introduction of euro notes and coins. This will be both a huge logistical and practical exercise and a symbolic moment of great impact. If it goes well, as I believe it will, it will make the importance and success of the European project come alive to all our citizens in a very tangible way.

Even sooner, next month, the first annual spring employment summit takes place in Stockholm. This will seek to monitor and accelerate the progress we are making on the broad economic and social goals set for the Union at Lisbon last March, namely, to become the most dynamic knowledge based economy in the world by 2010 while also achieving greater social cohesion. This requires action across a wide range of issues, from research to economic liberalisation to responding to the ageing of Europe's population. The intention is that Heads of State and Government should take a strategic overview of what is happening both nationally and at EU level. Essentially we have to find ways in which Europe can become more competitive as a global economic player while protecting the values of solidarity and inclusion.

Another great project facing the Union is enlargement. As I said earlier, the whole point of Nice was to prepare the Union for this. The way is now clear for the enlargement negotiations to accelerate and intensify and I know that this is a priority for the Swedish Presidency. Given the hope that the first negotiations can be concluded in 2002, the time is approaching when some hard decisions will fall to be taken. I am determined that our vital interests must be protected in the negotiations but, at the same time, we need to be generous and understanding towards the applicants.

Of course, membership should only be granted to those states which are capable of meeting the challenges involved and which have objectively met the appropriate criteria. It would do nobody any favours to act otherwise. However, that said, I hope and believe that the first accessions will take place within a few years. As I have consistently stated, I believe that enlargement is in the interests of Europe as a whole and of Ireland.

Enlargement goes right to the heart of what the European project is about. We in western Europe have played our part in assisting and encouraging change across our shared continent. We are now called upon to extend our partnership within the European Union to embrace the prospective new members. The European Union has an historic duty to underpin freedom and democracy and to promote prosperity and partnership throughout Europe. It was itself founded for those very purposes.

However, enlargement should not be seen as just a moral and political imperative; it is also an economic opportunity. Already the levels of Irish trade with and investment in the applicant countries are rising sharply. The expansion of the Single Market by over 100 million new consumers will create many new customers for our goods and services.

I am well aware from my own visits to the applicant countries, most recently to Malta and Cyprus, that they have a particular interest in our experience within the Union. Ireland is seen as a small state with an historical experience not totally different from their own, which, having started from a long way back, has made the best possible use of the support and opportunities given to it to catch up with the European mainstream. When, on my visits abroad, I am able to tell our story, to compare the statistics of today with those of 30 years ago, or even ten years ago, I always make clear just how much we owe to the Union and just how unimaginable our current prosperity and self-confidence would be if we had not had the chance to grow within the EU framework.

From an Irish perspective, the EU balance sheet has been overwhelmingly positive. I am convinced that others deserve the same opportunities we got a generation ago. The Nice Treaty opens the way to enlargement and it is above all for that reason that I have no hesitation in recommending it to the House.

I welcome the Taoiseach and thank him given that he has a heavy schedule. We appreciate the time he has taken to come and discuss this issue. The Nice Summit and the whole post-Nice process is critical to the future of Ireland. Regrettably it is very hard to interest the Irish electorate in that fact and even the popular media in the issues that will impact on our country, quite considerably and largely positively, in the years to come. I welcome the outcome of Nice. I regret that in many areas it fell far short of our expectations and that there were casualties. In responding to the Taoiseach's fine address I shall address a few of those points.

Nice is considered a success from the point of view of the applicant countries. It put in place the necessary procedures to allow accession to go ahead. That had to happen. We talked of leftovers in Amsterdam but while there were not technical leftovers in Nice there were major shortfalls. Any criticisms should always have at the top of the agenda that we applaud the fact that from an applicant country's point of view, Nice was a success. We are not churlish in any way in questioning the rights of any country that meets the criteria to join the Union. As a small open exporting nation we welcome the enlargement of Europe. I preface any remarks I make with that strong point.

The main casualty of the Nice summit was the French Presidency. There were also serious implications for the future working methods of intergovernmental conferences generally because of President Chirac's aggressive style of chairmanship. It is easier for me than the Taoiseach to say this. Even the Taoiseach has warned against a repeat of Nice. He has warned against a repeat of Nice as a process, so we must call a spade a spade.

The Commission also left Nice very badly bruised having been sidelined by the Chair at critical stages of the negotiations. Given that morale is already low in the Commission it faces a difficult few years. Indeed, Prodi faces a hostile media at present and it appears this will continue. That is not in Ireland's interest but it is a fact we must recognise as a backdrop to any of our discussions on Nice and the whole post-Nice situation.

The Taoiseach dealt with all the major areas in relation to Nice. The Amsterdam leftovers were there plus all the accession requirements.

I mentioned I have concerns about the whole process of intergovernmentalism. If Nice is the outcome of intergovernmentalism we do not need any more. We have to look at the post-Nice agenda and towards another process for discussions among the member states particularly on reform matters, perhaps an institutional conference rather than an intergovernmental conference. An inter-institutional conference is being touted in Europe. That would mean Commission, Parliament and the Council would have an input structured along the lines of a convention. It would have to go to an intergovernmental conference for final ratification when the issues had been debated in public. One of the big criticisms of intergovernmentalism is that it happens behind closed doors. The Commission was side-lined by President Chirac but the Parliament does not have a right to contribute. It is represented and in attendance but is not part of the debate in any sense. In view of the reduction in unanimity in terms of voting and hopefully an extension of co-decision, even though I am critical that it did not extend far enough, there is a major parliamentary deficit looming if we do not get this right. I am not sure what major institutional reforms are required to ensure that enlargement works and that there is not massive destabilisation, socially and economically.

What structures will we put in place to debate the problems? The system of intergorvernmentalism as an effective process emerged badly scarred from the Nice Summit. There is a void at present. If Intergovernmental Conferences are not the way forward what system will encompass the concerns of all and allow everybody to contribute openly rather than behind closed doors?

The reweighting of votes was mentioned. With respect to the Taoiseach's opinion, there is a general view that the new complicated system will make it very difficult for voting to be an efficient and effective process. Instead of simplifying the voting procedure in an enlarged Europe we have complicated the decision making process. That was not the intention going into the Nice Intergovernmental Conference. The Taoiseach maintains it will not be more difficult but I maintain it will be more complicated. The truth lies somewhere in between. Time will tell. What has been decided is unsatisfactory. There were strongly held views on the way to proceed and a compromise emerged.

It was agreed that 30 Articles would move to qualified majority voting. Not all of them have co-decision as a quid pro quo for giving up the veto or unanimity. It was hoped that as the list of topics to be decided on the basis of a unanimous vote was reduced in favour of decision by qualified majority voting, the safeguard of the Parliament vote would be operative in co-decision. That is in Ireland's interest and I regret it is a major shortfall in terms of what was expected on co-decisoin. The requirement on the European Parliament to vote in co-decision along with the Council of Ministers is an extra safeguard, especially where a veto is lost. It ensures that a democratically elected public forum can take care, not only of Ireland's interest but the broader Union interest.

I agree with the Taoiseach that the sacrifice of the veto is not as contentious as it had been built up to be before Nice. By virtue of its structure, intergovernmental decisions mean it is Ireland versus France, versus Germany or whoever. Each Minister or Prime Minster bats for their own country and they look over their shoulder to their national media and electorate. A communitaire approach is required or we will never resolve the problem of reform. If the Taoiseach is sent out to bat on certain issues he can only go as far as the Irish position will allow in terms of what is acceptable to the electorate at home. The French and the Germans have the same dilemma, albeit that they may operate from a different menu of choices. The system does not lend itself to reform on a Union wide basis. At Nice the interests of each country were paramount while the Union was a very poor second. We did not get the required result in terms of Community reform.

Alarm bells sound among many at the suggestion of a two tier Europe. Some want it because they wish to get ahead much faster on a range of issues where their development will allow. Others are more nervous of the various streams converging. We already have a two tier Europe covering major areas, such as the euro zone and the Schengen Agreement countries, from which the UK and Ireland are excluded. Instinctively I do not like the idea, but I must acknowledge that it appears to work reasonably in major areas. However, I urge caution because there is as much a negative as a positive involved. We could find ourselves on the wrong side as quickly as the right side. It must be watched carefully. The risk of the acceptance of two tiers is that some of the applicant countries might find themselves on a third tier, so we must be careful that countries are not classified into different tiers where it becomes difficult for them to progress on to the mainstream European bandwagon.

I accept the Taoiseach's points on security and defence issues and I applaud the stance taken on them by the Minister of Foreign Affairs at Nice. Indeed, I was proud to support his view when the matter was discussed in the European Parliament. He did Ireland a wonderful service while not upsetting any of the people at home.

Following the Nice summit it was agreed that the number of Irish MEPs in the European Parliament should be reduced from 15 to 12, which is better than might have been expected. The Minister said the proposal from the European Parliament would have meant the number dropping to nine. That was never debated or agreed on the floor of the Parliament. A draft proposal from the constitutional committee – to the best of my knowledge it does not contain a member from Ireland – proposed a table of reweighting the number of seats in the Parliament on a national basis to accommodate enlargement. On that basis Ireland would have emerged with nine members. It was never agreed by the Parliament in plenary session. I, and I think other MEPs, tabled an amendment to the draft proposal to the constitution as soon as I got a copy of it to ensure we could safeguard the best possible position, with a floor of 11 or 12 members. The Nice Summit has got rid of the doubt surrounding that debate.

Will the new reweighting of parliamentary seats for member states be applicable from 2004 and 2009? The answer might be of interest to some of the Taoiseach's colleagues.

It never crossed our minds.

It was the best decision Ireland could have secured given the size of the country. I support the Taoiseach's views on institutional changes. Given the history of referenda in this country I am not in favour of holding one unless it is decided by the Government's legal advisers that it is necessary. In that case the Government should hold one, otherwise the ratification of the treaty will be challenged.

I have some concerns, post-McKenna judgment, about the ability of the Government, aided by most of the Opposition, to convince the Irish people. I accept what the Tánaiste, Deputy Harney, said last week that because of the current little ranker between Commissioner Solbes and the Government in relation to our reprimand, given that the public does not know what is being done wrong in terms of economic success and does not understand what is upsetting the Commission at the moment, it will make it difficult to hold a referendum on Nice hot on the heels of this public, rather unseemly dialogue between the Commission and the Government. While I accept the main points made by the Minister for Finance, and accepting that we have breached the criteria, it would be of enormous benefit if we could make amends and be seen to accept the point being made diplomatically.

There is every likelihood that the Irish question will be debated next week at the plenary session in Strasbourg. When this was mentioned to me, I said I would be very pleased to talk about the success of the Irish economy for the past ten years, because I can point out many good aspects. I accept that technically we have breached X, Y and Z, but let our success story be a way forward in relation to other countries, particularly some of the smaller accession countries. I do not say this in a combative way, but there is room for a little diplomatic handling of the situation next week. Perhaps there could be a few signals that we accept the principle of the point, but our story was such that if we did otherwise it would have been twice as bad in terms of the impact on our inflation. I do not have to tell the Taoiseach, who made his political career by resolving conflicts in other Departments, how to resolve this public conflict between the Commission and Ireland which, in the long term, will do us no good if we are macho for the sake of being macho on the issue. He should use his best skills of diplomacy to resolve this public conflict.

If everyone stopped talking, we could solve the issue.

I am writing articles in the press also.

I am not referring to the Senator.

This issue will be discussed next week during the plenary session in Strasbourg. One can speak on any subject on the Prodi debate, which is like a general debate here. It will arise under the Bulman economic report when there is a question specifically on Ireland. We will be lucky if we do not have to address the issue three times next week in Strasbourg.

I thank the Taoiseach and appreciate his coming here this morning. We must look very carefully at the lessons to be learned from German reunification. In opening the European Union, in the real spirit of the Schumann money project, to the accession countries, and reminding ourselves why the European Union came about, there is an absolute logic why we should extend European membership to central and eastern European countries once they meet the relevant criteria. However, in doing so, we must learn from the German reunification process. It hurt Germany much more than it ever expected in terms of economic and social destabilisation. Enormous preparation is needed in relation to the different cultures, the different stages of the economic cycles and the different stages in terms of technology and so on of these countries.

We cannot under-estimate the difficulties of the enlargement and accession process, while welcoming these countries to our midst. In the long term, this will be to Ireland's benefit. I have no doubt that as a net exporting country the shop and supermarket shelves of another 109 million citizens of Europe are there for us. This is an exporter's dream so we should get out there and market the best of Ireland and the best of our produce. However, we must not underestimate the possible destabilisation, the impact on the euro and the social problems that will result initially if we do not have the institutional reforms in place to cope with the problems that will inevitably arise before we get to the point we are at now in relation to the current 15 member states.

I welcome the Taoiseach to the House as it is always an honour to have him here. It is a mark of the regard with which he holds this House that he has come here to discuss these issues.

I have called on a number of occasions for a debate on enlargement of the Union because the public in general is not aware of the profound implications of enlargement for this country. Even as late as this morning, I called for a debate on this issue. Why was the Nice Summit so important? It was important because its purpose was to prepare the Union for enlargement. The number of members will double in the near future. That is worth repeating because it is not commonly recognised by many people. In the not too distant future, we will have twice the number of members of the European Union that we have at present. It is almost as if the founding fathers were starting all over again. It is not a little bit here and there or a country here and a country there. The proposed enlargement is a profound undertaking and the Union which will inevitably evolve will be very different from that which now exists. Its aims, aspirations and so on will be the same, but it will be a richer Union. It will be multicultural and rich in its diversity, with a lot to offer everyone.

The emphasis in Nice was on re-enforcing stability and democracy and particularly incorporating into the democratic system the countries of eastern and central Europe, some of which even today are only beginning to witness the fruits of their newly found freedom, countries from the cockpit of Europe such as Chechnya, Czechoslovakia and Hungary which, having had the mantel of oppression lifted from them, are now eager to join the other European democracies. It is incumbent upon us to welcome them into the fold as quickly as possible. It is a wonderful opportunity for us in Ireland to extend the hand of friendship and to strengthen our economic and political relations with the aspirant countries, particularly those of a similar size to Ireland. We must recognise that the Union's interests and our interests are from here on inextricably linked and we must recognise the huge potential of a Single Market of 500 million people, greater than our wildest dreams even a few years ago and a wonderful opportunity for us to export our newly found expertise, high technology and software, of which we are now the world's largest producer.

The Taoiseach and the Minister for Foreign Affairs, Deputy Cowen, in going to Nice, while having a clear obligation to protect our vital national interests, also had an obligation to reach conclusions on institutional reforms, a need which was recognised but not resolved in Amsterdam. They responded magnificently to the challenge and deserve our congratulations. The Government approached negotiations in a positive light and against the background of the priority we attach to the earliest possible enlargement of the Union. In doing so the Government sought to ensure that the essential characteristics of the Union were maintained. The Taoiseach mentioned some of these aspects, but it is no harm to mention them again. There will be no change in the size of the Commission until 2005, at which time the larger member states will give up the second Commissioner, and there will be a review when the Union reaches 27 members. The weighting of votes was one of the most protracted discussions in Nice. Ireland retained its ranking with Denmark and Finland, each having seven votes out of a total of 345 when we have a Union of 27 states. Together with the United Kingdom, Sweden and Luxembourg, Ireland will continue to insist on the retention of unanimity for all aspects of taxation. Ireland will be left with 12 members of the European Parliament in an enlarged Union. This figure was signalled in the negotiations prior to the summit.

The Taoiseach said in the Dáil on 12 December last during a debate on this issue:

While some media reports have cast the Nice outcome as one of victory for Ireland in terms of the retention of the Commission, the retention of unanimity on taxation matters, the number of MEPs we secured and the explicit exclusion of military and defence matters from the new enhanced co-operation procedures, I would rather consider the Nice Treaty as a victory for the Union and the applicant states.

The final matter to which I wish to refer – I have spoken about it on many occasions at meetings of the Oireachtas Joint Committee on European Affairs – is that of keeping the public informed of developments. The greatest problem which could affect the Union would be a decline in public support for it. If the public ever ceases to accept that more can be achieved collectively than by a single member state going it alone, the cohesion of the Union will be threatened and, perhaps, destroyed. It will, therefore, always be necessary to have an accurate, clear, concise and continual flow of information to members of the public with regard to current and impending developments. It is so easy for ill-informed sources to drip feed rumours with no foundation about certain social issues or defence matters, namely, that Ireland will be obliged to join some form of huge nuclear alliance.

The development of a European security and defence policy is significant in enabling the European Union to play a greater role in achieving its objective of maintaining peace, security and stability in Europe. It is essential for Ireland to be centrally involved in helping to shape future changes and in ensuring that they move in the direction we would like to see them take. We continue to actively and constructively participate in European responses to the crisis management challenges which can arise. An important step in this direction was taken by the European Council at Nice with the approval of the Presidency report on progress made in establishing the European Union's capability to undertake crisis management tasks. The developments in European security and defence policy had their basis in the implementation of provisions of the Amsterdam Treaty. This report was, therefore, adopted outside the context of discussions on the draft Treaty of Nice.

Ireland has a long history – over 40 years – of involvement in peacekeeping with the United Nations and is now a member of the Security Council. Rather than shirk responsibilities in the area of security and defence, we should be centrally involved and, as stated earlier, we can then shape the way we want matters to proceed. This is just one area in respect of which misinformation continues to be drip fed and about which we must comment on occasion.

It will be the task of Government to ensure a continual flow of accurate and honest information. This, in turn, will ensure the support of the public for the Union. The Taoiseach referred to the fact that the details of the treaty may seem dry and technical but that we should not forget its broad political context. We can only do this by providing the public with the type of information to which I have already referred. If the public obtains such information, I believe it will continue to support the Union and will allow its institutions to work for a democratic, economically viable and war free Europe. If Mr. Schumann were alive today I am sure he would say that is the reason the Community was established in the first instance.

With the indulgence of the House, I wish to share time with Senator O'Toole.

Is that agreed? Agreed. The Senators will have ten minutes each.

I pay tribute to the skills of the Taoiseach in putting such a useful and positive gloss on the outcome of the Nice Summit. As an Independent I do not have to be quite so polite and the term salade nicoise comes to mind when one considers what happened at Nice. The reports which appeared in the newspapers do not give the positive, rosy glow the Taoiseach managed to bestow upon the Nice Summit. For example, on headline indicated that the “Vote-grab by the Big Five leaves smaller states outgunned and outraged” while the article over which it appeared stated that “the proposals had prompted revolt from the smaller delegations” and that “Bertie Ahern, the Irish Prime Minister, said it was a ‘slap in the face'.” Then there was the behaviour of some of the senior officials, particularly Mr. Chirac who is widely reported as having bellowed into Mr. Prodi's face, in respect of a civil servant from the Commission, that he should “get that little functionary out of here”. Mr. Prodi protested and stated that he would have his officials about him when he needed them.

It sounds like a meeting of the Fianna Fáil Party.

Yes. The reports do not suggest that it was a very well tempered meeting. In my opinion, it was quite fractious.

The significant thing about this debate, which I hope will be reasonably widely reported by the media, is that I believe discussions are taking place and decisions are being made about which the general public knows very little. I do not believe there is much knowledge abroad about the kind of discussions that have been taking place. There are a number of specific items which must be considered.

The first of these is the position we have taken with regard to the right to a Commissioner. It may very well be that we had to yield on this, but there is no question or doubt that our position has been weakened. After the adoption of the Nice treaty, we will no longer have an automatic right to a Commissioner in the future. This may be a practical necessity but it will mean that we will need to build bridges with our partners in Europe and maintain good relationships with them. That, perhaps, makes the position regarding the reprimand somewhat tendentious and difficult and it will require the skills of the Taoiseach, the Department of Foreign Affairs and, if I may say, all the little functionaries – who we in Ireland at least value even if Mr. Chirac does not – to bring about a successful and cohesive approach to matters. We have yielded and we have been flexible in respect of this issue and I hope this will produce some degree of goodwill among the other states .

There is then the question of qualified majority voting. This is a complicated area. Many people do not fully appreciate what is involved. To them, QMV is merely another set of three initials. It is worth placing on record, in condensed form, what it means and how it will affect us. In essence, QMV is a rebalancing in favour of the larger states, particularly Germany which did spectacularly well out of the Nice Summit. The business section of The Irish Times outlined what is involved in very succinct terms when it stated:

From now on, decisions will not only need the support of at least 73 per cent of the votes under the Council of Ministers' elaborate, weighted voting system. They must also have the backing of member-states representing at least 62 per cent of the total population of the EU.

This means that Germany will need the help of only two large states to block any measure, whereas each other member-state would require more allies. Germany's population of 82 million, combined with that of either France or Britain, accounts for 41 per cent of the EU's total population. Between them, France and Britain can only muster 35 per cent of the EU's population – not enough to block a decision.

There is a substantial element of veto now residing in the three principal players in Europe. We must recognise that fact, accept it and understand what is involved. Again, we will be obliged to rely in this regard on the diplomatic skills of the Taoiseach and the others to whom I referred earlier.

The most critical point about the Nice summit is that although we yielded in respect of the areas mentioned, we managed to reserve our position regarding a veto on taxation. That is absolutely vital and I am glad we succeeded in our efforts. One of the principal supports of our current economic strength is the fact that we retain independence in this area. For example, we have the International Financial Services Centre, with its advantageous tax system, which has attracted multinational corporations to establish operations here and also substantial investment from the United States. If we were prepared to sacrifice our independence in relation to taxation matters, it might lead to a substantial decline in the fortunes of the International Financial Services Centre. I am extremely glad that we protected this right.

The reprimand is to be delivered at a time when we have yielded in many areas and the regulations of our economy have been sacrificed in many ways to central control. Given that we no longer have the kind of levers we had in the past in terms of regulation of the economy, it is vital that we retain the capacity to rule our own house in terms of domestic taxation measures.

Although some people abroad would regard the language used by Irish politicians as inflammatory, we are quite right to defend this position. The message should go from this House to Europe that this is a matter on which we stand firm and that all sides of this House support the Government in retaining our independence. We should not cravenly kowtow to European bullying. As Senator Doyle has said, the Irish public may be naïve and I may certainly be naïve in economic matters but simple people reading the newspapers would certainly take the view that we must be doing something right with this economy. We are one of the strongest economies, if not the strongest, in the European Union. If we are getting it so right, why should we be the first state selected to be reprimanded? Should it not be the other way round? Should Europe not be looking at us and examining the way we handle our financial affairs to see if they cannot learn from us?

There has also been a shift in terms of power. The President of the Commission, Mr. Prodi, and his successors will have the capacity to sack Commissioners if they are seen to fail in their duty. I welcome the capacity to remove inefficient Commissioners. About a year ago, the Commission got itself into quite a disastrous situation but there was no capacity to remove these people. Should it not be the European Parliament, rather than the President of the Commission, that has this capacity?

It has been suggested that the summits move permanently to Brussels. This was recorded as being part of a last minute deal in the early hours of Monday morning in order to persuade the Belgians to come on board.

I have worries about the codification of the Rapid Reaction Force. Alarms go off every time I hear of Partnership for Peace, PFP, RRF and the rest. There is a growing military element under so many different headings and they are coyly hidden under these little acronyms. There is no doubt that we are being walked into a military alliance. Ireland should be very careful not to become part of a process in which the peacekeeping efforts of the United Nations are undermined and replaced by these other things. When I look at our colleagues in the European Union, I really doubt if people in this country want to be associated with them.

Reports have appeared in the last few weeks concerning the French during the war in Algeria in the 1950s. At that time, this democratic European government consistently denied that there was any torture, any murder or any calculated disappearances. Now they have admitted that it was happening wholesale and indeed it was policy. One French general, General Massu, appeared to have got qualms about it and to want repentance at the edge of the grave. One of his colleagues came out and defended it. He said that yes, it was regrettable that there was this torture and murder as an instrument of policy but it was necessary and if it was necessary again he would do the same. Is this the kind of military alliance in which we want to be involved?

I am grateful to Senator Norris for sharing time with me. I want to speak about the proposed reprimand. At a time when euro-scepticism is growing throughout Europe and many different countries are having difficulty explaining the European model and ideals to their people, this is the very worst time for the European Commission to wag the finger at this country. I say as an independent parliamentarian that I consider it to be weak-kneed, bullyboy tactics. I did not hear much from the European Commission, who are described as the guardians of the euro when Wim and the boys were letting the euro go through the floor last year and making mistakes left, right and centre. There was no finger wagging at the European Central Bank. There was no finger wagging towards Berlin or Bonn. It is not acceptable.

With respect to Senator Doyle, it is not a matter of any sharp diplomatic incursions at this point. There is a serious and fundamental issue here, which I want the Government to state firmly to Europe. It is only possible to have a single model of fiscal accountability and policy for all of Europe when all of Europe is the same. This country needs to converge in many ways with the rest of Europe before it would be fair to apply a single policy without flexibility.

When we agreed to the euro, we understood the issue of asymmetric shocks and how that would affect the economic community. This is a classic example of it in reverse where there is an asymmetric impact of the policies. It works like this. We need to spend a lot of money on services, for example in the areas of education and health. As stated in this House before, we should be spending as much per student on educational services as the rest of Europe. We should have the same quality of and investment in health services per capita as the rest of Europe. When we have economic inclusion brought to the level of the rest of Europe, then it will be fair to say to our Government that it should spend no more than any other European country. Until that is done, the European single policy of inflexible application to all of the economic systems in European countries will reinforce disadvantage and underprivilege. That is a reality that is understood by the Irish social partnership and it should be stated very firmly to the European governments. There is an issue of trust and confidence in the community and they need to be aware of it.

The social partnership model operated in this country goes from top to bottom. It begins by creating a competitive economy and that has required workers at all levels to tighten their belts for the last ten or 15 years. Arising from that competitiveness we have created wealth. That wealth goes to a number of areas. Of course it goes to profits. Of course it goes to research and development. It also goes into our taxation revenue. This taxation revenue is then redistributed in several ways. One is to improve social inclusion; another is to improve the pay of public servants and another is to improve social services. That is where the money is being spent. There is no question of our cutting back on investment in health, education, pay, improved services or improved social inclusion. It took us a long time to get to this point. Having done so we now wish to redistribute the wealth.

I absolutely reject their model of fiscal policy that seems to indicate that what they are proposing in Europe would control inflation. It does not necessarily do so. Inflation is a natural part of the economic cycle. It is something we have put up with and control and direct. It is not something that can be excluded or eliminated. We need to put the proper policies in place.

It will be helpful if the Irish Government ask the European Commission what they will do to ensure the euro remains competitive with currencies globally. Why can the Commission not make progress on pricing oil in euros? There has been some move towards that goal, but little progress has been made despite the matter being on the agenda for several years.

It is unacceptable for the Commission to ask Ireland to accept the policies that got us into trouble in the 1980s, given that we spent the 1990s getting out of that trouble. There is some wealth here. When we reach a level of redistribution that provides acceptable levels of social inclusion and State services, then like the rest of modern, wealthy Europe we can allow our spending to be governed by such policies.

I disagree with Senator Doyle on the voting issue. I am attracted to the idea of the double majority, requiring a majority of both countries and population. The Taoiseach is trying to achieve this, and it was the objective of the previous Government also. The Taoiseach seems happy with a compromise and I will not pass judgment on that. As in all confederations, we have to move from a veto position to a qualified majority position, then to a less qualified majority position and then to a normal majority voting procedure. That will happen when there is trust and confidence among all the Community members.

The European Commission has made it clear we must be careful how policy is formulated. From their eyrie in Brussels the Commission are not the font of all the wisdom in Europe. They have shown themselves to be quite inept in recent years, yet now they pick the smallest but most successful economy in Europe for their complaints. The Commission should apply to the rest of Europe the model of economic development that has evolved in Ireland.

There is no successful economic model in a situation where unemployment is less than 4 per cent. We are in new territory. We have the lowest level of unemployment in Europe and the highest level of productivity growth among workers. We have the fastest growing economy and the second lowest debt to gross national product ratio in Europe. What else do the Commission want? If they apply similar figures to the rest of Europe they might have reason for complaint.

The Nice summit has important aspects. The Swedish EU Presidency has taken the "Three E's" of enlargement, employment and environment as the main topics for its six-month tenure.

Enlargement has had most emphasis during recent presidencies. I was in Stockholm last week at a meeting of chairmen of European affairs committees which included those from applicant countries as well as the current members of the EU. The problems of enlargement are different for each country. Enlargement will create problems within the current EU membership and it will impact on the newer applicants. Malta applied for membership in 1990 and meets the criteria required. It is a small country that will make little impact on the EU, but it is very close to North Africa. The Baltic countries were not considered to be of great importance to Europe before 1990 because they lay in the Soviet sphere of influence.

There is a different emphasis among the various applicant countries and there are fears, some due to Germany's position. Freedom of labour and capital movement is one of the bases of the EU, yet it is suggested that after joining the EU, applicant countries would suffer a seven-year delay before they were entitled to freedom of labour movement. That is wrong at a time when European economies have improved dramatically and there is a need for labour. Priority should be given to EU applicant countries in sourcing labour, providing them with visas and the means of joining our labour market.

There is a feeling that countries such as Romania, which comes into the news quite often, have many workers who would benefit the Irish economy. It is difficult, because there is an image of Romanians as gypsies and therefore unwelcome, as is the case in other countries. The gypsies of Romania and other east European countries are a small percentage of the population and will be a minority of those who come to Ireland to work.

Western Europe needs qualified labour and we should look to applicant countries to provide it. It is not fair that a seven-year waiting time should apply before allowing free movement of labour. The EU should get rid of that idea, just as the church got rid of the idea of purgatory.

We have never had a unified Europe and those who think otherwise are fools. Europe is a huge area where there has never been a union. We had empires such as the Austro-Hungarian empire which covered large parts of Europe. To speak of the re-unification of Europe is nonsense. We are trying to get a majority of European countries into an environment where matters of trade, defence, ethnicity and mutual interest can be discussed.

In Sweden last week, we discussed the environment. Protection of the environment, however, does not mean that the growth of employment potential can be dismissed – it is as important as the creation of employment. The greener the environment the better for employees and employers. We will do well to marry the issues of environmental protection and employment potential.

Many of the applicant eastern European countries have huge agricultural potential. Irish farmers may see this as a threat. I do not agree. Eradicating certain diseases from the herd will take money from the agricultural kitty. There may not be as much money left for the applicant countries as we received under the CAP on our accession into Europe.

Mr. Persson, when speaking of the three Es, admitted that the Swedish Presidency might not fulfil its hopes regarding each of these. The Presidency will also address matters outside Europe, for example in Palestine. Israel does not accept Europe as a powerbroker because it thinks that Europe is too close to Palestine. Nevertheless, we must have a bigger input into Middle East affairs. We cannot allow the Americans to control negotiations on behalf of the rest of the world. More money, after all, goes into that part of the world from Europe than from anywhere else.

We should defend ourselves against recent complaints made by the Commission. Statistics are available which show that we have a small economy which has a small part to play in the economics of Europe. Our taxation policies will spread the impact of our excellent economic growth to everybody. They are not anti-European.

Cyprus is among the countries applying for EU membership. I believe that it would be nonsense to admit Cyprus because it is divided between the Greek and Turkish sectors. Greece and Cyprus are seen as acceptable EU members, but Turkey is unlikely to be accepted until it has improved its human rights record. I believe that Turkey's human rights record is equal to that of the United States. The death penalty has not been used by the Turkish Government for 17 years. I wish the same could be said about the United States. Let us be quite plain: there are human rights violations all over the world.

We joined the UN Security Council on 1 January last. I received a note from the UN yesterday stating our position on five issues that we have been involved with. It is the first time I have encountered such details of what Ireland has done at United Nations level.

Ratification of the Nice treaty by referendum seems to be necessary. Public support tends to vary depending on the strength of the Government, but I am confident that we will ratify the treaty. The public will support us as they understand its practicality and importance. If there is a need for a referendum, let us have it.

Senator Norris claimed that Germany's population will help it to control decisions made by the EU. In an EU of 27 members, Ireland's percentage of the total EU population will fall from 3.45% to 2.2%. Our voting strength will be settled at 2.03%, which will be a relatively modest adjustment. It has been proven through the years that minor statistical variations are not as important as an ability to make deals with other countries. It has been suggested that decision-making will be more difficult because of new arrangements which mean that decisions must represent at least 62% of the Union's population. The practical effect of this will be to ensure that any decision can be blocked by three large member states. The Taoiseach would have preferred if this threshold had been slightly lower. The effective rate until 1995, however, had been 63%, and on occasions had been over 70%. I do not think Senator Norris's statistics were correct.

It is important that we look at the practical implications of EU enlargement, and especially on the limitations that will be placed on the enlarged EU. There is a need to include applicant members and the sooner the better. We should not wait for a group of countries to be eligible. As soon as a country is eligible for accession it should be allowed in. It is envisaged that a group of countries will be allowed in after 2003 and the second tranche will join in 2005.

This has been an important debate on the Nice treaty. The more often we hold such debates the more often Senators and those outside the House will be able to see that the evolution of Europe is ongoing, important and necessary for our future economic and social development.

I am disappointed the Taoiseach did not see fit to remain in the House for the debate. That is no reflection on the Minister of State deputising for him. However, this debate was presented to us in glowing terms as statements on the Nice Summit with the Taoiseach in attendance. The Taoiseach spoke for 15 minutes, listened to one contribution and was out the door. That does not exactly constitute the Taoiseach listening to a wide range of views from all parties and spokespersons in the House.

That is a shame as the Taoiseach was engaged in the negotiations. This issue will probably go before the country in a referendum and it would be important to hear the views of Senators. The Taoiseach is present in the Dáil for about two hours every day, yet we could not get him for two hours in this session. We will probably not see him in the House this side of summer.

The Taoiseach and I share a constituency and he attends several launches and openings every day. It could be said that he would attend the opening of an envelope in his constituency, but he cannot remain in this House for two hours in one session. That is very disappointing.

If my memory is correct, when I was a Member of the Seanad with the Senator we never saw a Taoiseach in the House. It was not common on those years.

We have not had a Labour Party Taoiseach. When we have such a Taoiseach he or she will show proper respect for the House.

The Senator knows that the Taoiseach is not here to defend himself so perhaps he should restrict his comments.

I am simply expressing disappointment as this issue concerns our position in Europe. This is a new treaty and the debate was billed as having the Taoiseach present, but that has not happened.

It was not billed as such.

It certainly was and that is what is on the Senator's Order Paper.

I listened attentively to the Taoiseach's comments. When one reads what he said it is clear that the decision-making process as regards the treaty leaves a lot to be desired. The Taoiseach spoke about his four long days and nights of negotiations and haggling. It is like "Seven Drunken Nights" by the Dubliners or an ICTU conference in Tralee.

The public is at a loss as to what is happening and no one seems to know how decisions are made. In the aftermath of the Nice Summit it is clear that there must be an end to this type of process for negotiating treaties whereby there is endless haggling behind closed doors, Prime Ministers claiming great things, headlines such as "The Taoiseach Goes Ballistic" or whatever. This kind of process will have to stop as there must be a better way of dealing with these issues.

Despite the sense of frustration at the manner in which business is done, we must not lose sight of what the EU has achieved. That is the key to what the Nice treaty is about. Much more important than the economic benefits it has brought citizens is the EU's crowning achievement regarding peace and political stability in western Europe.

The 40 years since the signing of the Treaty of Rome have brought a period of peace and an absence of war in western Europe not seen for generations and, possibly, never before in the history of this continent. However, citizens of other parts of Europe have not been so fortunate and many still live in severe poverty and in states emerging from the shadows of anti-democratic regimes. In the Balkans, which is as much a part of Europe as is Ireland, in the past decade we have seen the capacity of local conflicts and ethnic disputes to take a terrible toll in lives, with injuries and the destruction of property. In such circumstances it not surprising that so many countries outside the Union wish to join and share in its economic and political benefits. Nor is it surprising that all those who recognise the potential values of a zone of peace and stability stretching from the Aran Islands to the Ural Mountains wish to facilitate the orderly entry of applicant states at the earliest possible date.

It was always recognised that the decision-making procedures which originated in a Community of six countries and which were adapted from time to time to facilitate the gradual expansion of the Union to its current 15 members would not be capable of dealing with a Union of 27 or 28 countries as is envisaged. Part of the challenge facing the intergovernmental conference which concluded in Nice was to revise and amend procedures to ensure that an expanded Union could function efficiently and effectively. However, the challenge went far beyond that to constructing a vision of a new Europe appropriate to such a potentially large and diverse community.

There has to be considerable doubt as to whether the Intergovernmental Conference succeeded in fully meeting either challenge and there is much to suggest that the process reflected a lack of strategy and confidence in the enlargement process. There is also reason to believe that many states were so preoccupied with fighting national corners that they lost sight of the bigger picture. It is not clear whether the Intergovernmental Conference has yet produced the improvements to the treaty necessary to strengthen the Union's capability for enlargement and its democratic accountability.

Asked whether the Nice treaty was adequate to prepare for enlargement, the President of the Commission, Romano Prodi, said that it might have done half the job. He also stated that he could not disguise a certain regret that we did not manage to go further. Eight weeks after the summit we face great difficulties in attempting to draw definite conclusions on the outcome of the Nice Summit because we do not have the text of the draft treaty, nor do we know when it will be available. This is just the draft text and we have no idea when we will have a final text.

Final judgment on the Nice Summit will have to be withheld until the full text is available for examination and analysis. However, the outcome of EU summits are not always what they appear to be or what political spin doctors suggest. We all remember when, as Taoiseach, Deputy Albert Reynolds returned from Edinburgh with what we were told was a cheque for £8 billion in his back pocket. Members will remember that it was not quite that simple and that many more battles had to be fought before the level of funding was determined. We all remember the quaint word "fourchette”, whether it entailed an increase or a decrease.

MEPs discussing the Nice Summit this week face the same difficulties in the absence of a draft treaty. However, there are strong suggestions in the European Parliament that despite reports of a successful outcome, many of the details of the draft treaty remain to be finalised. There are strong suggestions that the deal on the number of MEPs to which each state will be entitled has not been nailed down and that further discussions will have to take place before the implications for each member state are clear.

I was not happy with the Taoiseach's comments on the number of Ireland's MEPs. He was quite vague as to whether we would have 12 or nine. If the number is reduced from the current 15 to nine, that would constitute a huge reduction in Irish representation. I would have expected him to be clearer in his assertion of the number of MEPs to which we will be entitled.

I am also sceptical of efforts by the Taoiseach to claim a great victory in retaining our low level of corporation tax. Headlines, such as "Bertie goes Ballistic", may sound great to the regulars in Fagans bar in Drumcondra, but I doubt if it reflects the reality of Nice. If this was a victory, it was in a phoney war. It was clear from the beginning that countries such as Britain, Sweden and Luxembourg would not contemplate majority voting on taxation issues. This battle would always be won because the other countries had already fought it. It suited the French to have it included in the draft text so they could be seen to make a concession. It also suited the Taoiseach because he could claim a victory when it was taken out. Most of the running on the taxation issue was done by the Swedes and the British.

The concessions on the composition of the Commission were of greater importance for Ireland and for the long-term development of the Union. The role of the Commission has been central to the Government of the European Union and a strong Commission is in the interests of smaller countries, such as Ireland. We saw a concerted effort at Nice to downgrade the role of the Commission to facilitate a move towards intergovernmentalism. The Taoiseach should not have conceded on Ireland's right to retain a full Commissioner at all times. These are the types of things to which the Taoiseach should be here listening. I fear that the proposals for rotating Commissioners will devalue the Commission and will tilt the balance of power in favour of the Council of Ministers. The political reality is that when the stage of rotation is reached and there is no French, German or British Commissioner, the Commission will lose considerable clout, impact and importance. It does not mind if Ireland does not have a Commissioner, but when the big three do not have one, it will be undervalued.

When we consider this issue with the decision to raise the threshold for qualified majority voting from 71% to 73%, the position of the big three, France, Germany and the United Kingdom, will be strengthened at the expense of the Commission and of the smaller countries. The big three can now establish a voting block to stymie the smaller countries and their interests, as they always wanted to have control over the affairs of Europe within their largescale hands.

Every major development in the European Union since we first entered in 1973 has been put before the people and approved by them in a referendum. Regardless of any legal requirements, the Nice treaty should also be subject to a referendum. I am surprised the Taoiseach was not able to give us a commitment today to hold a referendum. He said that legal advice is being sought and it is likely it may happen, but he was vague. If the expansion and development of the Union is to have democratic legitimacy, it must be put before the people for their approval and consent. It is becoming increasingly more difficult to get ratification through a referendum on any treaty with Europe. It will be even more difficult now given that the Minister for Finance and the Government have been reprimanded about inflation, pay and spending policy and their belligerent response that they will not take dictation from any European country, that our farmers are becoming more disillusioned because of the manner in which the European Union has banned our T-bone steaks and seems to be discriminating against them, that many sectors are concerned about our position on neutrality and what is seen as creeping interference from Europe. The Government should consult the Opposition and try to get support for the treaty. Nothing has happened so far in that regard but it would need to get on its bike if we want this treaty to be accepted by the people.

We should be aware of the disappointment with the treaty. There was the danger that it would not be ratified in the European Parliament. Much of the opposition and criticism is not coming from the Euro sceptics but from strong supporters of the European project. Euro sceptics were always there but Ireland is now becoming one whereas it used to be a Europhile. We are now beginning to be concerned about the European project. While the European Parliament cannot block ratification, a negative vote in the Parliament would rob the treaty of all its credibility. Some MEPs believe that if this happens, a number of national Parliaments, particularly the Italian and Belgian Parliaments, would refuse on principle to ratify it.

There are many matters to be clarified and questions to be answered. This debate cannot be regarded as at a conclusion but the beginning of the involvement of the Oireachtas in the process. As soon as the full text of the treaty is available, there must be a full debate in this House to which all Members will have an opportunity to contribute. I hope the Taoiseach will give us some more of his time then.

I spoke at the outset about the unsatisfactory nature of the Intergovernmental Conference process, particularly the final stage of the process in Nice. There is a strong view throughout Europe that this type of horse trading, brinkmanship, late night sittings and haggling must stop and that there must be a new way of concluding the business before the next Intergovernmental Conference is due in 2004. We must ensure this does not continue because of the importance of the treaties. The party of the European socialists, of which the Labour Party is a member, has suggested a new model based on the convention established to draft the charter of fundamental rights. This convention was made up of representatives of the member states, Parliaments and Governments, the European Parliament, the Commission and the Presidency. The convention on the charter successfully concluded its work within nine months. I hope the Government acknowledges the inadequacy of the current system and joins with our colleagues in devising a way which is more democratic and efficient.

It is important to recognise that there were two distinct elements to the Nice summit. It marked the end of the Intergovernmental Conference and it was also the conclusion of the French Presidency. While the French have been the subject of much criticism in this House today for their handling of the Intergovernmental Conference, they are entitled to considerable credit for the way they used their Presidency to advance the social policy agenda. That was reflected in the Presidency conclusions which dealt with such important matters as food safety, public safety, sport, environmental issues and the statute for European companies. These areas require further debate because they are major issues relating to the Presidency and the Nice treaty.

I hope this is a preliminary discussion on this issue and that when the full text is made available, we will have a full scale debate where all Members will make their views known.

Sitting suspended at 2.50 p.m. and resumed at 3 p.m.
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