Seanad Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 4 Jul 2001

Vol. 167 No. 11

Dormant Accounts Bill, 2001: Committee and Remaining Stages.

Sections 1 to 18, inclusive, agreed to.

SECTION 19.

Government amendment No. 1:

In page 20, subsection (4), lines 23 and 24, to delete "subsection (3)(a)” and substitute “subsection (3)(b)”.

Amendment agreed to.

Section 19, as amended, agreed to.

Sections 20 to 40, inclusive, agreed to.

SECTION 41.

Mr. J. Doyle

I move amendment No. 2:

In page 32 subsection (1)(a), line 6, after "primary" to insert "and post-primary".

The main emphasis in the debate this morning was in relation to this section and how the money in the disbursement fund should be used. The Bill provides that it is to be used to assist the personal educational and social development of persons who are economically, educationally or socially disadvantaged or persons with a disability. Then it goes on to refer in particular to "programmes or projects that are designed to assist primary school students with learning difficulties". I was interested in hearing the comments of Members that the Department of Education's responsibility would be solely with learning difficulties at primary level whereas I propose in my amendment that post primary should be included.

I was involved some time ago in a report dealing with EU funds for Dublin. That report showed that in certain areas of the city where there was social exclusion and deprivation 51% of boys and girls left school at the age of 15 and 16 years because they could not compete with their peers. I made further inquiries as a result of these figures and I found these children were supported by remedial teachers etc. in the primary cycle but when they entered the secondary cycle they were lost and consequently dropped out. Unfortunately, these children had no qualification whatsoever and the report showed that they often fell into crime and drugs.

I believe that if we have money to disburse it should be spent on the most needy in our society. I agree fully with section 41 and I have no difficulty in asking the Minister to supplement this area above what the Department of Education and Science pays. Throughout the country, as Senator Bonner mentioned, there is now an industry in tuition for children whose parents can afford it. These parents can afford special tuition for children who need extra help or even to help children cram for their exams in order to get better results. Unemployed and less well off people have not got that kind of funding. If we have funds from dormant accounts they should be used to help the less well off in our society. Money should be provided to help those our education system has lost.

The Minister has accepted that funds should be provided to help people with learning difficulties at primary level and I ask him to add post primary to that. It is a reasonable request and I hope he will have no difficulty with it. The Bill has to return to the other House for his own amendment and I hope he will include my amendment also.

Dr. M. Hayes

I have enormous sympathy with the point raised by Senator Doyle. I agree that the problem of adult literacy and the problem of helping children from deprived backgrounds through school are real problems. I argued earlier for leaving a maximum amount of discretion to the board. We should not trammel it particularly since, as the Minister explained, there is nothing in the legislation which prevents it from doing this sort of thing. If we begin to lumber the board with specific groups that makes its task more difficult.

The essence of the Bill and the thrust for it came from the need for dealing with dormant accounts. We may in a sense have missed an opportunity since perhaps less thought has gone into dealing with the money. It is not an enormous sum of money and it would not solve all the social problems of society, nor should we expect it. The way we are dealing with it is actually a bit of a cod because the Committee procedure is so truncated. I know the Minister wants the Bill and we will not stop the process but we could have helped make it a better Bill if we had more time. Will the Minister assure us that there will be wide consultation with bodies working in the community and voluntary field when making appointments to the board and in arriving at a plan and proposals?

Mr. Bonner

I appreciate entirely what Senator Doyle has said and I have had the same experience when dealing with primary school children. I agree that the funding should be given to assist children of parents who cannot afford to get them extra private tuition. The groups I have been dealing with, such as Leader groups and the Association of Children with Learning Difficulties, would be able to take on more children if there was funding available. The whole idea is that we are making a new start. This fund is just an addition. We will not let the Department of Education and Science off the hook.

I believe if we give this extra funding to the primary sector that we can eliminate adult illiter acy in the years to come. We should not be restrictive and the board should be in a position to broaden it out. We should leave it as it is and then, along with pressure from us on the Government to provide extra funding, all the aspects referred to by Senator Doyle can be covered.

Minister of State at the Department of Education and Science (Mr. O'Dea)

I assure Senator Hayes that there will be wide consultation as we want to ensure the best people are on the Dormant Accounts Fund Disbursements Board, which will have a responsible task.

I do not propose to accept the amendment suggested by Senator Doyle as I consider that the provisions already made sufficiently cover this matter. Section 41(1)(a) provides that moneys in the investment and disbursements account should be used, among other matters, for programmes or projects designed to assist the educational development of disadvantaged people. The Bill specifically provides that priority may be given to projects designed to help primary school children experiencing learning difficulties. Many children leave primary school with literacy and numeracy levels below standard for their age and the Government considers that anything that can be done to address such problems at the earliest possible stage of a child's educational development should be done. In this way fewer problems should become evident at post-primary level. To dilute further the purposes for which this fund can be used would make increasingly ineffectual the provision that the money be used for the educational development of disadvantaged people.

It could be argued that if we make specific provision for the post-primary school sector, third level students from disadvantaged areas should be catered for too. The matter is more properly dealt with by moneys provided by the Oireachtas to the Minister for Education and Science. Nevertheless, in deference to Senator Doyle's comments, should the Minister for Social, Community and Family Affairs decide that money should be made available from the fund to the post-primary sector specifically, section 41(1)(b) of the Bill allows the Minister to do so, having regard to the plans of the board.

Mr. J. Doyle

In view of the commitment made by the Minister of State, I will not press the amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Section 41 agreed to.

Sections 42 to 48, inclusive, agreed to.

Schedule agreed to.

Title agreed to.

Bill reported with amendment, received for final consideration and passed.