Adjournment Matters

Pupil-Teacher Ratio

Senator Trevor Ó Clochartaigh

Táimid buíoch don Aire as teacht isteach ar an gceist seo, ceist atá tábhachtach agus atá ag tarraingt go leor cáinte ar fud na tíre, sna scoileanna tuaithe go háirithe, maidir leis an chóimheas atá molta ó thaobh scoileanna beaga. I am grateful to the Minister for Education and Skills for attending the Chamber. I have been inundated with calls, as he has, about the proposal made in the budget to change the staffing schedules for one, two, three and four teacher schools, those with fewer than 86 pupils. They are up in arms about this change. It is potentially a fundamental change in the way education is delivered, particularly in rural areas. Something that may seem to be an academic work on paper, changing ratios, could have a major effect on which schools are opened, how children are transported to schools, the time at which they have to get up to go to school and the place of the school in the rural community.

Schools and teachers have also raised the point that a value for money audit of primary schools is under way in the Department and that all schools have returned questionnaires to it. They have found it strange that the announcement has preceded the publication of the report on the audit. As with the Comisinéir Teanga, decisions are taken before reports are made available for debate and discussion. Schools have asked me to ask the Minister to outline the logic behind the decision, why it is being taken now and whether he is aware of the issues schools are raising about the potential damage if the change is introduced.

Minister for Education and Skills (Deputy Ruairí Quinn)

I thank the Senator for raising this issue as it affords me the opportunity to outline the position on the staffing schedule for small schools for the 2012-13 school year. As part of the budget decisions announced recently, the number of pupils required to gain and retain a teaching post in small primary schools will gradually be increased between September 2012 and September 2014. The schools concerned are those with four or fewer classroom teachers. It is important to emphasise that no small schools will be closed owing to the changes announced.

The pupil thresholds for DEIS band 1 disadvantaged schools are not as high, as they reflect the recently introduced 22:1 staffing schedule. Reduced pupil thresholds will continue to apply to a school that is the only primary school on an island. The phased adjustment is estimated to yield a saving of 250 teaching posts in the next three years, with 100 of these posts being removed in 2012-13 school year. The resulting surplus teachers will be redeployed to vacancies in other neighbouring schools in accordance with the redeployment arrangements. The phasing of these measures provides the schools concerned with time to consider the potential for amalgamation with other schools, where this is feasible.

We have a very significant number of small schools across the country. Owing to the way the staffing schedule works, small primary schools benefit from significantly lower pupil-teacher ratios than larger primary schools. For example, the minimum pupil threshold for the appointment of the second teacher in a two-teacher school is currently 12 pupils. This means that this school has an average of six pupils in each of its two classes. The changes we are introducing will mean that in September 2012 a minimum of 14 pupils will be required for the appointment of the second teacher in the two-teacher school. The subsequent increases in September 2013 and September 2014 will increase this minimum pupil threshold to 20 pupils. Even when all of these phased increases are implemented, the threshold will still be significantly lower than the minimum of 28 pupils required for the appointment of the second teacher in schools prior to the mid-1990s.

The existing staffing schedule also acts as a disincentive for small schools to consider amalgamation. We have to ensure the very valuable but limited resources we have available in the system are used in the best and fairest way across the whole system.

All areas of public spending have had to experience some adjustment, given the scale of the economic crisis. Despite this challenge, the Government has sought to do this in as fair a way as possible. A value for money review of small primary schools has been under way in the Department for the past year. It was initiated by my predecessor. It is part of the normal review processes undertaken by all Departments on an annual basis in selected areas of expenditure. Among the issues that will be taken into account in the review are questions such as availability of diversity of provision, ethos of schools, parental choice, the language of instruction, travel distances, transport costs and the impact of schools on dispersed rural communities. The review will examine the locations of small schools relative to each other and other schools of a similar type. It will also examine the costs of running small schools and the educational outcomes associated with small schools. Educational quality for students must be one of the main criteria in any consideration of primary school size. It is also necessary to consider the needs of local communities and wider social and cultural factors. The value for money review is simply about ascertaining all the facts to inform future policy in this area. Work on the review is well advanced and I expect the report on the review to be available early in 2012.

Senator Trevor Ó Clochartaigh

Will the Minister confirm that, when he takes on board the results of the review and the process of amalgamation is discussed, he will take into consideration linguistic issues in Gaeltacht schools? Will he allay fears that in some scenarios teachers will teach up to four classes within one classroom? That would make the task more difficult.

Deputy Ruairí Quinn

When the value for money report is published, I hope this House and the Dáil will have an opportunity to debate it. I am not in the business of wanting to close schools per se, but we need to achieve better value for money from the existing school infrastructure. There are alternative ways of amalgamating, combining and clustering schools, all of which should be open for examination.

School Staffing

An Cathaoirleach

The next two items for discussion are similar and will be taken together.

Senator Averil Power

I refer to the impact on disadvantaged areas of the education cuts included in the budget announced last week. I ask the Minister for Education and Skills to outline the rationale behind the cuts. It is extraordinary that the Government decided to target some of the most severely disadvantaged areas in the country for such savage cuts. It belies the claim made by it that it would protect some of the most vulnerable people in society from cutbacks. It is a great shame that it is undoing much of the progress made in these schools in recent years.

The Minister met some of the principals this week, including the principal of the school in Darndale where the junior national school has classes of 15 children. With small classes and excellent staff who are committed and hard-working, the school has made incredible progress in the past few years. The Minister is aware of the literacy programme. Within two years the school managed to increase achievement levels among first and second class pupils. It increased the number of pupils performing among the best in their age group from no one reaching that level to 20%, which is incredible. This is a positive sign for the future in a community that has struggled and taken a long time to make such progress. It is a shame to put this in jeopardy as a result of cutbacks.

The increase from 15 to 22 pupils per class represents an increase of 50%, an incredible difference in a teaching environment in which good results are being achieved. I, therefore, urge the Minister to re-examine this matter. I wonder if he was aware of the impact on individual schools when he made the decision. Had he seen a list of the schools involved and did he know that they would be hit this much? The school in Darndale is losing five teachers out of 16. I wonder if the Minister was aware the impact would be so significant for individual schools. The Taoiseach was unaware because when he answered questions from my party leader in the Dáil this week, he said existing DEIS schools would not be affected. I found this incredible.

There was a reference to legacy issues, which is an unhelpful term because it implies that the only reason teachers are in place is their positions were granted a long time ago and that they have not been making a contribution since, which is unfair. Darndale school has been making great progress, progress that the Department has recognised and lauded and which was held up as an example for other schools serving disadvantaged communities that could get good results.

Did the Department carry out a cost-benefit analysis on the long-term impact of this? Whatever about it being socially regressive to take teachers out of these schools, it does not add up economically, particularly when we look at the long-term costs not just to the Department of Education and Skills but to the Garda budget and the Department of Social Protection. There is no economic rationale for it. Was the long-term economic impact considered? Apart from the Breaking the Cycle posts that are being taken away from those schools, other schools that have served as best they can areas that have traditionally not had a good educational achievement, such as Kilbarrack and Priorswood, will also be affected by the changes for special needs children and the disimprovement in the ratio for the general allocation model. This is unfortunate and while I appreciate cuts must be made in the budget and our party accepts that €3.8 billion had to be found, there is a fairer way to do it and education should have been prioritised. I am sure the Minister fought as hard as he could for his Department but the cabinet as a whole should see this as an area that should be protected with a view to the future of society. I urge the Minister to rethink this. I welcome the movement on the disability cuts, which were perhaps not thought through, and I hope this will be another area where changes can be made before long-term damage is done.

Senator David Cullinane

Everyone accepts that we need value for money in the public service but that should not be used as a cloak to take teaching posts from some of the most disadvantaged schools in the State. I will outline the impact these cuts will have on schools in Waterford. A number of principals contacted me in recent days and meetings are being arranged with Oireachtas Members next week so their concerns can be outlined. One teacher working in an inner city school in Waterford city wrote to me to outline how the school had DEIS band 2 status for many years, with many challenges to deal with every day. The teacher thought it was a total disgrace that the Government was suggesting raising the pupil-teacher ratio by seven children per class. The teacher is proud of the children in the class and the school. That teacher did not feel the children would receive the same level of education if the ratio was adjusted. Making the change without considering the long-term effects on individual DEIS schools and disadvantaged families is irresponsible according to this teacher. Definitely, the teachers themselves can best outline the impact this will have on their schools.

The headmaster of St. Saviour's national school in Waterford, which I attended, also contacted me to say much of the good work the school has done over the course of many years in improving the reading, writing and numeracy skills of students, many of whom are from a Traveller background, could be undone because of the changes that are being made. In 2010, St. Saviour's had 27 teachers; this year it has 24. If the current criteria as outlined in the budget is applied to the school, teacher numbers will fall as low as 20, which will have an impact on all of the good work that school has done to improve the literacy and numeracy skills of students.

Every DEIS school in Waterford has already lost the resource teacher for Travellers this year, and five of them lost an English language support post. Every DEIS school will lose at least one concessionary post. I agree with Senator Power that describing these posts as legacy posts, as if they were needed in the past but are not necessary for the future, is regrettable and a cause of concern for many schools.

That is just the local impact. The national impact of this measure will be huge. A total of 38 concessionary teaching posts will be withdrawn from 15 non-DEIS primary schools that were previously in the Giving Children an Even Break programme; 102 concessionary posts will be withdrawn from 52 urban band 2 DEIS schools previously in the Giving Children an Even Break programme; 43 support teacher posts will be withdrawn from 48 primary schools, 45 DEIS and three non-DEIS; 45 concessionary posts will be withdrawn from 32 DEIS schools previously in the Breaking the Cycle programme which the Minister's party supported in Opposition; and 64 concessionary posts in 59 primary schools and 136 posts in 136 post-primary schools are being removed. That will have a major impact on education in the country.

We all accept times are tough and that savings must be made but to make those savings by removing teaching posts from some of the most disadvantaged schools in the country is the wrong move. I ask the Minister to provide information to me regarding the schools in Waterford to which I have referred on what assessments were carried out in those schools that could justify these cuts. When I talk to teachers and headmasters, they have evidence to prove they have improved numeracy and literacy skills of students but we are taking away the critical teaching posts they need to ensure all children get the best education possible. We are not giving equal opportunities to all children if we undo a lot of the good work that was done by providing those concessionary posts and other support and resource teachers who were in those schools. It is a retrograde step and I hope the Minister will review the impact this will have on each school.

Deputy Ruairí Quinn

The Government has prioritised targeted supports for schools with the most concentrated levels of educational disadvantage. These supports will continue to be targeted through the Delivering Equality of Opportunity in Schools scheme, which is focused on 670 primary schools and 195 post-primary schools with particularly high levels of disadvantage. This scheme is designed to ensure the most disadvantaged schools benefit from a comprehensive package of supports.

The creation of a dedicated DEIS band 1 pupil-teacher ratio of 22:1 in the budget will secure a more favourable staffing allocation for these primary schools in comparison with the mainstream pupil-teacher ratio of 28:1. While the new staffing schedule gives greater autonomy to DEIS band 1 schools, the schools should continue to prioritise their staffing allocation to implement more favourable pupil-teacher ratios in junior classes, in line with DEIS policy.

The Government is also providing €13 million in enhanced funding for DEIS schools, €2 million in school book funding for DEIS schools, as well as a €26 million investment in the home-school-community liaison scheme. All of these areas have been protected from reductions in expenditure for 2012. In addition, €27 million will be provided next year for the school completion programme, a major component of DEIS, funded by the Department of Children and Youth Affairs. Furthermore, DEIS post-primary schools will be targeted for additional support through an improved staffing schedule of 18.25:1, which is a 0.75 point improvement compared with the existing standard 19:1 that applies in post-primary schools that do not charge fees, or compared with the 21:1 ratio that will apply in fee-charging schools.

To ensure fairness in the distribution of resources available under the DEIS plan, it is no longer possible to allow some schools to retain legacy posts on a concessionary basis that predate the introduction of the DEIS scheme. As a result, a decision has been taken to withdraw 428 posts from earlier disadvantage programmes and schemes in 270 primary schools and 163 post-primary schools that exceed what equivalent schools are entitled to under DEIS or to which non-DEIS schools are not entitled.

I am aware that some schools will be particularly impacted by the withdrawal of the legacy disadvantage posts. I met a group of school principals on Tuesday in order that I could listen directly to their concerns about the impact of this measure on their schools. Consequently, the Department will hold a number of teaching posts in reserve to reduce the impact of changes to schools most acutely affected.

As part of the alleviation measures, DEIS band 1 junior schools will be placed on a staffing schedule based on an average of one teacher for 20 pupils. A further 32 schools that have legacy posts that provided for one teacher for every 15 pupils in junior classes only will now have a staffing schedule that operates on the basis of an average of one teacher for 18 junior pupils.

The special position of DEIS schools will also be recognised in adjustments to the general allocation model, which is used to allocate learning and language support teaching posts to schools. The Department is not in a position at present to give details as to how this measure will affect individual schools, including schools referred to by the Senator. In addition to the budget measures, consideration must be given to the effect of increases and decreases in enrolment on schools' staffing entitlements annually.

All schools will be notified in January 2012, three months earlier than normal, of their staffing entitlements under the new arrangement, including any alleviation measures that may apply. This will allow schools to plan for the school year beginning in September.

Senator Averil Power

I acknowledge the Minister has stated he intends to put in place some alleviation measures. However, I do not understand how he can stand over these changes in general. There is a need to simply reverse them altogether. Again, I ask whether the long-term cost of this measure was considered, not simply in the departmental budget but across Government expenditure as a whole. Time still remains for the Minister to reverse this decision and I hope he will. I acknowledge he has met the principals who have put the case to him but I genuinely fail to discern how he can stand over the measure. I again stress my request to the Minister to reverse this decision because the long-term impact on the most disadvantaged areas will be phenomenal. In the current environment, these are the people who should be protected the most, rather than being targeted. The Minister referred to fairness in his response but I fail to see how anyone could consider this measure to be fair.

Senator David Cullinane

In his response, the Minister stated the Department would hold in reserve a number of teaching posts to reduce the impact of changes on schools most acutely affected. While I welcome and support this measure, the Minister should replace the word "reserve" with the word "replace", which is what is necessary. As for the statement he made that consideration must be given to the effect of increases and decreases in enrolment on schools' staffing entitlement annually, I will cite the example of St. Saviour's school, which potentially will experience a fall in teacher numbers from 24 to 20. In 2010, the aforementioned school had 310 pupils, while in 2012, it will have 318 pupils. In other words, it will have more pupils but four fewer teachers. Moreover, the school had 27 teachers in 2010. Obviously, to go from 27 to 20 teachers will have an impact on that school. This is an example of one school in Waterford but, unfortunately, many schools in this State will suffer a similar fate. I echo the hope expressed by the previous Senator that the decision will be reversed and not simply reviewed by the Minister.

Deputy Ruairí Quinn

I have heard what the two Senators have said. The Department will make contact with all the schools affected by these decisions early in the new year. There will be an additional three months in which to meet each school to go through in detail the reason it as a DEIS school has additional resources, when other DEIS schools in a similar category have fewer resources. The Department will consider ways in which there can be an equalisation within this category. Otherwise, many DEIS schools will lack the resources possessed by the schools in question, which is inherently unfair. As resources are scarce, they must be applied as fairly and as equally as possible. The Department will contact the schools directly to ensure the facts it has in its records tally with those on the ground in those schools.

Garda Stations

An Cathaoirleach

I welcome the Minister for Justice and Equality, Deputy Shatter, to the House.

Senator John Kelly

I also welcome the Minister and I am only sorry I was obliged to bring him back here today because he dealt with two similar Adjournment matters yesterday. I wish to raise the proposed closure of the Garda stations at Loughglynn and Tarmonbarry, County Roscommon. On foot of his responses to other Members yesterday, I accept this is not a cost-saving measure. However, some of the recommendations by senior gardaí are flawed in respect of some of the Garda stations they have selected for closure. In the case of Loughglynn, it is a little village close to my home town of Ballaghaderreen, where two gardaí were shot dead in 1980. It is a one-man station and the garda there is retiring. What amazes me in this case is that although this man is ready to retire, the Office of Public Works is spending €80,000 on renovations to the same building and there is something fundamentally wrong with that.

I believe a major mistake is being made in respect of Tarmonbarry Garda station. Nobody is retiring in this case. Tarmonbarry is one of three gateways to the west, the others being Athlone and Carrick-on-Shannon. However, Tarmonbarry is the main one.

The projected savings by closing Tarmonbarry Garda station is €3,000 to €4,000 per annum while €80,000 is being spent at Loughglynn Garda station. Some 20 years ago there was one sergeant and five gardaí in Tarmonbarry village dealing with 18 houses. Today there are 400 houses in Tarmonbarry and only one garda who is not proposing to retire.

Recently in Tarmonbarry a German couple were tied up and robbed. The incident got national coverage on television and were it not for the quick action of the local gardaí, the offenders would have got away. Obviously rural Ireland is a target for Dublin criminals. This happens regularly, with rural post offices being robbed. Six months ago my sister, who works in a small post office, was held at gunpoint, tied up and robbed by a Dublin gang. They were apprehended on their way towards Tarmonbarry, thank God. Many other post offices in County Roscommon have been robbed by Dublin gangs. Down through the years many of these gangs have been apprehended in Tarmonbarry which straddles the River Shannon. Given that they have to get back to Dublin — there are three routes — 90% return by Tarmonbarry. I have spoken to a senior garda source and he thinks that the decision to close many of the Garda stations is flawed.

Another mistake made recently was that Tarmonbarry Garda station was taken out of the control of the Longford Garda division and put under the control of the Boyle Garda division. That is another reason there should be a manned station in Tarmonbarry. Longford is no more than five or six minutes from Tarmonbarry whereas Boyle is 45 minutes from Tarmonbarry. The bottom line is that we do not want to send a signal to the criminals who come and rob rural areas that we are open for business to them.

Minister for Justice and Equality (Deputy Alan Shatter)

I thank the Senator for raising the issue. However, I do not think that a single garda in a station in Tarmonbarry can provide protection for the local community from criminal gangs. It requires a great deal more than that from the Garda Síochána than can be undertaken by any single member of the Garda, no matter how dedicated.

A similar issue was raised in the House yesterday, as the Senator mentioned, in respect of the closure of Corrandulla Garda station in Galway. Many of the points I made then equally apply to the closure of Tarmonbarry and Loughglynn Garda stations. Notwithstanding this, the Garda Commissioner and I are fully aware of the potential impact of the closure of any Garda station on the community it serves. This is why local Garda management in places where a station is going to close will consult local communities to determine how best to continue to deliver a policing service in their area. It is also the reason the Commissioner has reiterated the commitment of the Garda Síochána to providing a professional and effective service for the community in all areas of the country, including Loughglynn and Tarmonbarry.

As the Senator is aware I recently laid before this House the policing plan for 2012. This plan, prepared by the Garda Commissioner under the Garda Síochána Act 2005, sets out the proposed arrangements for the policing of the State during the coming year. Under that plan, 31 Garda stations will be closed from 2012 and a further eight stations which are currently non-operational will be formally closed. Tarmonbarry and Loughglynn Garda stations are among the 31 stations due to close in 2012. In addition, the public opening hours of ten other stations will be reduced. These stations currently open to the public on a 24 hour basis but, in future, will be open to the public from 8 a.m. until 10 p.m. each day.

In reaching these decisions the Commissioner reviewed all aspects of the Garda Síochána policing model, including the deployment of personnel, the utilisation of modern technologies, the operation of Garda stations in terms of opening hours, and possible closures. Additional divisional offices were asked to assess the level of activity in each Garda station in their area. Based on all the evidence, the Commissioner concluded the resources could be better deployed and more effectively used on the front line. These particular stations no longer had to be staffed and maintained. This is a very important point as with every other public sector organisation, the Garda Síochána will have to manage with reduced resources.

The House will be aware that Garda numbers are being reduced under plans agreed by the previous Government arising from the commitments made in the EU-IMF agreement. It is vital, therefore, that the best use is made of the available resources and, in particular, that priority is given to front-line operational duties. Both Tarmonbarry and Loughglynn Garda stations are in the Roscommon-Longford Garda division. Tarmonbarry is in the Boyle district, as mentioned, which has a total complement of 38 gardaí at all ranks. Loughglynn is in the Castlerea district which has a complement of 48 gardaí at all ranks. The divisional strength is 291. These divisional resources are augmented, as necessary, by national units such as the Garda national drugs unit and the National Bureau for Criminal Investigation.

I pay tribute to the Garda Síochána, as I did yesterday. I have complete confidence in the capacity of the force to continue to provide an excellent policing service in the communities affected by all the closures, including Tarmonbarry and Loughglynn. The Garda Commissioner should have the support of the House as he introduces necessary reforms to ensure that Garda resources are used as effectively as possible in order that the best possible policing service is provided for the public. In that context, as Minister for Justice and Equality, I have to be guided by the operational assessments and decisions made by the Garda Commissioner. As Minister, it would not be appropriate that I would second-guess a decision of the Commissioner in regard to operational matters.

In regard to two matters raised by the Senator, each of the Garda stations being closed is in the ownership of the Office of Public Works and are important assets owned by the State. Work is taking place on some of those properties to ensure they are maintained in a proper condition because it is intended that the properties will be sold or used for other purposes and, where appropriate, utilised to provide community services, provided no further additional expenditure falls on the State thereafter. There is a responsibility to ensure the premises do not fall into disrepair, are maintained in good condition and, where there are roofing issues, they are addressed in order that buildings do not deteriorate and an asset is not lost.

I regret to learn of the experience of the Senator's sister in the appalling incident he described. Unfortunately, a number of people throughout the country have been affected by similar incidents. I was interested to hear the Senator say that the gang involved were intercepted following the incident. A number of such incidents have been successfully investigated by the Garda Síochána and have resulted in prosecutions being undertaken. A number of individuals who have engaged in that type of criminality are guests of longevity of the State within the prisons.

An Cathaoirleach

Does the Senator wish to ask a brief question?

Senator John Kelly

I do not accept that one well trained garda would not be able to do enough to thwart criminals crossing a narrow bridge in Tarmonbarry. The Boyle Garda division, despite all its personnel, is 45 minutes away from Tarmonbarry. It is not necessarily true that a Garda Commissioner or whoever makes decisions at the highest level always gets it 100% right. This particular decision is flawed. I am amazed that 20 years ago, when there were 18 houses in Tarmonbarry, it was possible to have a sergeant and five gardaí in the station. Today, with more than 400 houses, the station is manned by one garda and now the one garda is being taken away. I appreciate the Minister is accepting the advice of the Garda Commissioner but I ask the Minister to ask the Commissioner to review the decision to close Tarmonbarry Garda station.

Deputy Alan Shatter

There are 703 Garda stations throughout the country which developed piecemeal. There was no plan in respect of their creation by this or previous Governments. In 2001, Northern Ireland had 140 police stations. The PSNI has 83 stations and under its reforming measures it is envisaged that approximately a further 35 stations will close in the period leading into 2015. The reality is that we have to take account of the fact that times have moved on. We have more modern communications systems and better intelligence than in the past. However meritorious and dedicated is the service of a single garda in a single station, it is not the efficient way to address organised crime. This change removes a member of the force from desk duty in a station which has limited footfall and facilitiates that member being used in front-line services.

I have to respect the statutory operational role of the Garda Commissioner in making operational decisions. While I sympathise and understand the Senator's concerns I do not want to give him any false comfort in this matter. The Garda Commissioner has conducted an overall review. He has reached a conclusion based on an operational assessment that there is no operational benefit to the Garda in keeping this station open. I have to respect that decision. I am not in a position to have that decision reviewed. The 31 stations being closed this year I anticipate are a prelude to further consolidation of Garda stations across the country to ensure our resources are more efficiently used and gardaí can be better used on the front line to the benefit of local communities.

It is the Commissioner's absolute commitment to me that in communities where stations close he will ensure that all necessary arrangements are made to maintain a high and necessary level of policing. Where required, he will consult local communities to give them such additional information as they require and to receive from them such comment and information as they wish to share with him or those working under him to contribute to policing.

An Cathaoirleach

We will not have the Minister back in the House until 2012. I thank him for his courtesy and his attendance since his appointment. I wish him a happy and safe Christmas.

Deputy Alan Shatter

I wish all Members a happy Christmas and a peaceful new year.

The Seanad adjourned at 6.35 p.m. until 10 a.m. on Friday, 16 December 2011.

Seanad Éireann díospóireacht - Thursday, 15 Dec 2011