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Seanad Éireann díospóireacht -
Tuesday, 18 Jun 2013

Vol. 224 No. 1

Adjournment Matters

Departmental Investigations

A number of months ago, we raised an issue regarding a man who used to run a certain summer college. He was also a teacher working with the VEC and worked with number of Irish language organisations. There was a difficulty in that there have been allegations of child abuse made against him. The Minister for Justice and Equality, Deputy Shatter, intimated approximately two months ago that there were to be three internal investigations, namely, one by the Garda, one in the Department of Education and Skills and the other in the HSE. I raised this issue last week with the Minister and he told me that the ongoing Garda investigation was under his remit but that the one by the Department of Education and Skills was not. I am now trying to ascertain the current position with regard to the Department of Education and Skills. What are the terms of reference of the investigation being carried out by that Department? How far back is the internal inquiry to go? Some of the allegations of abuse date from 1955.

A trial was initiated in respect of this individual, but it fell on several technical grounds. That particular case related to victims who were in an educational setting. As well as working in the Irish language organisation I mentioned, the perpetrator also worked as a teacher for a number of years and was involved in various educational initiatives. It is important in this context to establish the scope and breadth of the internal investigation being conducted by the Department of Education and Skills. I am in contact with several of this man's victims who are distraught by what happened to them and feel that because he passed away in recent months, they will never got justice.

I thank the Senator for affording me the opportunity, on behalf of my colleague, the Minister for Education and Skills, Deputy Ruairí Quinn, to clarify the position in respect of the matter raised. The investigation conducted by the Department of Education and Skills relates to an analysis of files held in that Department. This was done on foot of recent media reports concerning allegations of child abuse involving a former teacher and head of a summer college. Under the Education Act 1998, the Department of Education and Skills provides funding and policy directions for schools. Neither the Minister nor the Department has legal powers to investigate allegations of child abuse, statutory responsibility for which rests with the Health Service Executive and An Garda Síochána.

The media reports concerning allegations against the person in question are of great concern. The Department has standard procedures in place for dealing with any allegations of child abuse that are brought to the attention of its staff. Under these procedures, the Department does not make any judgment on the allegations brought to its attention but instead ensures that the details thereof are immediately passed on to the relevant investigatory authorities, including the school authorities, the HSE and An Garda Síochána. The analysis of records conducted by departmental officials shows one notification of concern regarding the individual in question, which was reported to the Department in 2012. This was dealt with in accordance with the Department's procedures and reported at that time to the HSE and An Garda Síochána. No other record was found from the analysis of files in the Department. Departmental officials are, however, in ongoing co-operation with the Garda's investigation into the matter.

In regard to child protection arrangements for primary and post-primary schools, the most recent update of these procedures was done in September 2011 in order to reflect the updating of the Children First national guidance published in July 2011. These updated procedures incorporate significant improvements to the previous school guidelines and are intended to ensure consistent and uniform implementation of the Children First guidelines across all schools.

I welcome the Minister of State's reply on behalf of the Minister for Education and Skills. He indicated that there is only one confirmed report of a complaint against the individual in question. I appreciate that this is not within the Minister of State's remit, but he might ask the Minister to confirm the scope of the departmental investigation. One of the cases that was brought forward related to events in 1955. Has the Department examined files from that far back to ensure there were no other complaints made against the individual in question? Whatever information is there must be brought into the open. Several of the individuals who contacted me are of the view that there might be complaints going back even further.

I will raise the Senator's concerns with the Minister and ask him to reply directly.

Primary Care Centres Provision

I thank the Minister of State, Deputy John Perry, for coming to the House to address an issue which is of great concern to people in Portumna, County Galway, and surrounding areas. People in the town have been left without public health services since November 2012 as a consequence of a rat infestation in the health centre building. This matter was brought to my attention at the time by concerned residents and I asked the Health Service Executive to investigate the claims. The HSE responded immediately to inform me that steps were being taken to rectify the problem without delay. I was assured that two surveys had been undertaken by a pest control company with the results showing that there was no rat activity in the health centre itself. I was told, however, that the surveys did show some evidence of rat activity externally. I understand the extermination company took all the necessary pest control measures at the time.

Staff and all services at Portumna were moved to Woodford health centre while the pest control company conducted further investigations into the centre in Portumna. Clinical services which could not be undertaken at home were temporarily suspended, with an undertaking that they would resume once the health centre reopened. I understand the staff were asked to return to Portumna in February 2013. They objected to doing so given that floorboards which were removed from the property in the course of the investigation had revealed a nest of rats. Nobody could blame them for refusing to work in such conditions, which represent a very significant health and safety issue not only to employees but also to service users.

The Portumna centre remains closed and residents continue to be deprived of the types of health services that are available in every town and village in Ireland. There are reports that some public health nurses are working out of their cars. Baby developmental checks, speech and language therapy and care of the elderly services are all being carried out at other health centre locations such as Woodford and elsewhere in east Galway. The situation is entirely unsatisfactory. Such is the depth of feeling on the issue the locals are planning to submit a petition to the HSE. This issue has been going on for far too long.

Portumna, a town with a good-sized population and significant numbers living in the hinterland, has suffered greatly in recent times. The burning down of the Shannon Oaks Hotel, for example, has led to significant job losses, as did the closure of ancillary businesses dependent on the hotel. In addition, AIB has closed its branch in the town. I implore the Department of Health to take action. People in Portumna feel justifiably aggrieved at what essentially amounts to a downgrading of all local health services. The HSE seems to have forgotten about them, some eight months after the problem of rat infestation at the health centre first emerged. Action must be taken without delay.

I am taking this Adjournment matter on behalf of my colleague, the Minister for Health, Deputy James Reilly. I welcome the opportunity to address the plans for the provision of primary care services in Portumna, County Galway, and in the wider context. Portumna health centre is the main centre for the Portumna primary care team, which is situated in south-east Galway. The team provides services to a population of 6,513 people. There are several outlying smaller health centres in the area, including Woodford, Gurteen, Derrybrien and Tynagh. Woodford health centre provides a full-time service, with the other locations providing storage facilities to support clinical services.

The health centre in Portumna is located on the outskirts of the town, close to the former workhouse and farm land. The original building was built approximately 50 years ago and has telephone and fax facilities. It has been closed since the end of 2012 following the discovery of rodent activity outside the centre. The risk of such infestations are increased because of the location of the centre. Owing to concerns raised, an extermination company was contracted and all areas treated. The company has since confirmed in regular checks that the centre is now free from rodents.

Health Service Executive local management is in discussions with staff regarding the delivery of services from the health centre. As the risk of rodent activity in the surrounding area continues, the HSE has examined all State assets locally to see whether a more suitable premises is available for utilisation us a health centre. Unfortunately, no suitable location has been identified.

The following services continue to be delivered to people within the Portumna area: public health nursing; physiotherapy, occupational therapy; speech and language therapy; social work; home help; and cardiac specialist services. For the present, these services are provided from various suitable locations, with the public health nursing service being provided on a similar basis. Local GPs operate from their own premises in the town.

The long-term accommodation needs for this area have been identified. This area was advertised under the national primary care infrastructure programme, a suitable project was identified and a letter of intent was issued in 2009. This is being reviewed at present, with a view to providing a modern purpose built health centre for the area. The development of primary care is central to the Government's objective to deliver a high quality, integrated and cost effective health care system. The HSE recognises that the Government's health reform programme places a new emphasis on developing the role of primary care within a universal health care system and as a consequence, progress in delivering the necessary infrastructure is a priority.

The development of primary care centres, through a combination of public and private investment will facilitate the delivery of multidisciplinary primary care and represent a tangible refocusing of the health service to deliver care in the most appropriate and lowest cost setting. The primary care infrastructure model offers a good fit for private sector delivery. The HSE is progressing the delivery of primary care infrastructure using three mechanisms, namely, HSE direct-build, operational leases, and public private partnerships. Regardless of the method of delivery, locations cannot be progressed unless there is committed GP engagement. Between May 2011 and May 2013, some 27 primary care centres opened. This ongoing development of primary care centres continues to be an extremely important element of the Government's health reform process.

I thank the Minister of State for his response. However, I am most dissatisfied with it. There is a pressing need right now to provide health care services within Portumna and its surrounding area. As the Minister of State mentioned, some 6,500 people want to avail of these services and it is not good enough to think that they are being ignored. What will the people of Portumna and the surrounding area do until such time as a primary medical care centre is built? The sense of abandonment of the people of Portumna is quite clear and the Minister and the Department of Health need to do something in the interim until the primary medical care centre is built. There is no point in looking to the future when 6,500 people are looking for these services on a daily basis. The issue is far more pressing than the Department realises. I implore the Minister of State and the Minister to do something now on the issue.

The good news is that a location for a new primary care facility has been identified. Obviously, the buy-in to that from local GPs is important. I reiterate that the HSE has examined all State assets locally. I suggest the Senator should conduct a due diligence process in Portumna to see if a more suitable premises is available for utilisation as a health centre. I would be astonished if there was not a suitable location in Portumna that would meet the needs of the HSE. Therefore, I suggest that the Senator engages actively on the ground to see if she can recommend a suitable location and forward that to the Minister. The Department is looking for a location, but no suitable location has yet been identified. That astonishes me.

No more than the Minister of State, I am in the business of finding solutions. Unfortunately, this is a long-term solution to a short-term problem. Something needs to be done and more urgently than kicking the ball down the road until such time as a primary medical care centre is built or until such time as GPs come on board.

My door is open at any time to facilitate and help people in Portumna to ensure the project comes to fruition. However, what are the people going to do in the meantime? The Department needs to get real on this issue and do something quickly. This is about exterminating rats and ensuring the facility is good enough to be used by people from the Portumna area. Therefore, I implore the Minister of State again to pass the message on to the Minister and inform him something needs to be done urgently.

It is wonderful a primary medical care centre will be made available -----

We cannot get into a debate on the matter. This is a matter on the Adjournment and the Senator has made her contribution.

I suggest again that there is huge community involvement in Portumna and that this is a huge community regeneration project. The Minister is prepared to facilitate the location of the facility in a suitable property. With the amount of property that is now vacant in Portumna, I am certain there must be some location the Senator could suggest to the Minister on which agreement could be got from the HSE locally as a suitable location. The Senator should nominate a suitable location.

I am aware the Minister is in talks with a private company in that regard. However, what I need is a short-term solution for the people of Portumna. I am not looking at a situation two or three years down the road. I want to represent the people to the best of my ability.

The Minister of State will bring the Senator's message to the Minister.

We cannot get something more short-term than that. The Senator and the people of Portumna should come up with a location and inform the Minister.

A location has already been identified, but the problem is it is on a long-term basis.

Mental Health Services Provision

I welcome the Minister of State to the House. I am disappointed the Minister for Health, Deputy Reilly, is not here as this issue relates to his geographical area. However, I ask the Minister of State to highlight the issues for the Minister on my behalf.

The reason I have tabled this matter is the need to discuss the chaotic situation regarding mental health services in the north Dublin area. This is the result of a major shortage of psychiatric beds, under-staffing and HSE policy regarding psychiatric referral. Currently, there is a huge shortage of psychiatric beds in north Dublin. We have the lowest ratio of psychiatric inpatient beds per head of population in the entire country, with just 13.5 per 100,000 people. The Minister of State may be familiar with the area and be aware there are huge levels of social deprivation in the north Dublin area. Demand is huge and is increasing daily, as it is in other parts of the country, due to the toll the recession is taking on people and the resulting mental health distress they suffer.

As a result of the shortage of beds currently, patients with psychotic disorders have had to wait up to five days in accident and emergency units and medical wards and on trolleys in Beaumont in order to be admitted to hospital and provided with an inpatient bed. This is both a result of the lack of sufficient inpatient beds and of a HSE policy that ensures the only way people can access the inpatient service is to go through accident and emergency units. This is a disaster. Instead of taking referrals straight into the inpatient service, as happened in the past, the policy now is that patients must go through accident and emergency services.

As the Minister of State can imagine how distressing the situation is for people in significant mental distress or who may be suicidal to end up in a chaotic emergency department and to be stuck there for three or four days before they can get the proper mental health service they need. This flies in the face of everything that should be in place. A calm, supportive environment should be in place for patients with mental health problems the minute they try to access services. They should not be put through accident and emergency services. A new centre in Beaumont, the Aisling centre, is due to open later this year, but even when it opens, we will still have the second lowest ratio of inpatient mental health beds in the country. This is unfair, particularly given the demographic make-up of the area and the extent of the need.

I also want to raise another issue I hope the Minister of State will bring to the attention of the Minister, namely the crisis situation that also exists in the community mental health service. I have here a letter that was returned to a GP who tried to refer one of his patients to the psychiatric service in Beaumont. The hospital replied and said that the patient's difficulties were more appropriate to the community mental health team so the GP tried to get a referral through the community mental health service. The response he got was:

I wish to acknowledge receipt of your primary care psychology referral for the following client [gives details] ... Due to the moratorium on staff recruitment in Dublin North-East, we are regrettably unable to accept the above referral or any further primary care psychology referrals until further notice.

The situation now is that the community mental health service in Dublin North is not even accepting referrals into the service, no matter what situation people are in.

That is shocking and frightening, given the level of distress and pressure people are under. I am sure that, like me, the Minister of State, Deputy John Perry, has been visited at his clinics by such persons. It is frightening that a person with a mental health problem who wishes to access the service cannot do so. It is regularly stated people must be encouraged to avail of support when they need it. The people concerned want to avail of the service but cannot access it. There is a crisis.

I hope the Minister of State will indicate that some progress will be made on the issue.

I thank the Senator for raising this topic. North Dublin mental health services provide a range of adult mental health services within the specialties of general psychiatry and psychiatry of old age and a rehabilitation psychiatry service within the settings of service user homes, acute in-patient facilities, day hospitals, day centres and supported community residences. The delivery of services is guided by A Vision for Change which provides the strategic direction for the future delivery of mental health services and by the HSE national and Dublin north east service plans 2013 which set out national and regional priorities. While implementation of A Vision for Change and the reform of mental health services are priorities for the Government, implementation of A Vision for Change has been somewhat slower than originally expected. It has been delayed by a number of factors, including the changed economic context, constraints in public spending and the moratorium on recruitment. Nonetheless, a great deal of progress has been made with the accelerated closure of old psychiatric hospitals and their replacement with bespoke new facilities better suited to modern mental health care.

In 2012 a special allocation of €35 million was provided for mental health services, primarily to further strengthen community mental health teams in adult and children's mental health services, to advance activities in the area of suicide prevention, to initiate the provision of psychological and counselling services in primary care, specifically for people with mental health problems, and to facilitate the relocation of mental health service users from institutional care to more independent living arrangements in their communities, in line with A Vision for Change. Some 414 posts were approved to implement the €35 million package of special measures which resulted in an additional 87 WTE posts and an additional €6 million was provided for Dublin north east mental health services.

Budget 2013 provided a further €35 million for the continued development of mental health services and more than 470 additional staff will be recruited to implement these measures. HSE Dublin North East has been allocated an additional 104.5 WTEs and almost €7.3 million to progress the agreed objectives for the national service plan 2013 investment of €35 million in mental health services. I acknowledge that the service is operating within a challenging environment and faces a number of critical issues in relation to acute in-patient bed capacity, staffing resources and infrastructure. However, the opening of the new 44 bed acute psychiatric unit at Beaumont Hospital later this year will assist greatly in alleviating the current capacity issues being experienced by the service. The service has also recently benefited from the allocation of an additional 13 allied health professional posts as part of the mental health investment initiative to enhance the existing community mental health teams and is awaiting the appointment of 10.5 clinical nurse posts under the national clinical programme. Also, three nurses are expected to commence on the graduate nursing programme in the next number of weeks.

It is acknowledged that the mental health service in north Dublin faces a number of challenges. However, management and staff are working proactively to ensure these issues are addressed and an efficient and effective service is provided.

I appreciate that the Minister of State is replying on behalf of the Minister for Health, Deputy James Reilly. However, I am disappointed with the reply provided for him which does not reflect the reality on the ground. While reference has been made to the additional posts allocated, they have been in the pipeline for some time and are not yet filled. The reply does not reflect the urgency of the crisis in terms of the number of people seeking access on a daily basis to the service and who cannot get it. It is cold comfort to them knowing that posts might eventually be filled. I ask the Minister of State to bring the attention of the Minister to the letter from the GP which I read which points out that despite the work in train, the harsh reality is that patients cannot access services and that the community health team is not taking on new referrals. I ask that something be done about this immediately. As stated, while it is welcome that additional beds are being provided, the number of beds in the area will still be the second lowest in the country. Therefore, much more needs to be done. This matter requires a far greater response than that provided by way of the Minister of State on behalf of the Minister.

I again thank the Senator for raising this important issue. The Minister has allocated an additional €35 million to mental health services in 2013 and a further 400 staff will be recruited. As such, the Senator's concerns are being addressed. I suggest she send a copy of the letter to which she referred directly to the Minister, with whom I will also raise the matter. As stated, the Minister is aware of the difficulties in this regard. The acute bed unit at Beaumont Hospital will greatly assist in addressing the problem. The Government is aware of the pressure on people at this time. Mental health and associated services provision is being accelerated by the HSE. I will bring the Senator's concerns to the Minister's attention.

That would be appreciated. On the Minister of State's suggestion that I forward the letter to the Minister, I write to him weekly and the longest reply I have ever received is two lines. As stated by many other Members in the past, everything is referred to the HSE which cannot reply because it is constrained from a policy point of view. I would appreciate it if the Minister of State could use his good offices to raise the matter with the Minister directly. A two line reply is as much as I ever receive on serious and important health issues.

I assure the Deputy that that will be done.

I thank the Minister of State for dealing with the first three matters on the Adjournment. I welcome the Minister for Justice and Equality, Deputy Alan Shatter, to deal with the next matter.

Garda-PSNI Transfers

I also welcome the Minister.

The Independent Commission on Policing for Northern Ireland was set up pursuant to the Good Friday Agreement signed in Belfast in 1998. We are all familiar with the Patten report published by the commission in 1999 which contained 175 recommendations, nine of which related specifically to transfers between the Garda Síochána and the PSNI, with a further recommendation being that the issue of community balance at more senior ranks of the police service be addressed by lateral entry from other police forces. The Patten agreement provides for three levels of personnel exchange: a programme of placements to transfer experience and expertise, including in the area of training; a programme for members of each police service to be seconded, with full police powers, to the other police service for periods not exceeding three years, and that members of each police service be eligible for certain posts in the other police service. I acknowledge the current co-operation between the PSNI and the Garda Síochána on policing matters which was confirmed again yesterday at the British-Irish Parliamentary Assembly, BIPA, meeting on human trafficking which I attended.

I propose to concentrate on the transfer of personnel between the Garda Síochána and the Police Service of Northern Ireland. While the legislation that underpinned the recommendations made in the Patten report is very positive, a number of practical issues arise which I will outline. At the level of short-term exchanges, the Patten programme has proved reasonably successful. This involves 84 gardaí and 75 PSNI officers taking part in what is usually a four week exchange. Garda officers on exchange to the PSNI remain subject to their own police regulations and have no police powers while in Northern Ireland. This clearly is a major disadvantage to officers while serving in another jurisdiction. The same applies to officers from Northern Ireland on exchange to the Republic. Other practical issues arise in relation to insurance cover. I have been told, by way of first-hand anecdotal evidence, that officers who transfer are effectively there as observers, with a view to increasing their personal-professional contacts and their understanding of issues relating to cross-Border criminal activity. While this is good, they are effectively civilian observers. I do not believe this could be classified as anything more than short-term work experience and time out from their own work.

Longer term secondments of up to three years have proved less popular. The PSNI only received one application for a secondment in 2009, while An Garda Síochána received none. The previous Garda Commissioner, Mr. Fachtna Murphy, expressed his regret that the scheme was not working and indicated that he would assist the PSNI in reviewing the process. Sir Hugh Orde was, however, sanguine about the absence of long-term secondments at the time. In 2009 the PSNI decided to review the process rather than go ahead with the secondment. In March 2010 Superintendent Paul Moran became the first and only officer of any rank from either An Garda Síochána or the PSNI to take part in a secondment when he was seconded from An Garda Síochána to the PSNI in Belfast for 18 months.

In this secondment he wore the full uniform, had police powers and was permitted to carry a firearm. He has since returned to An Garda Síochána.

Lateral entry or transfer between forces has proved somewhat harder to arrange, partly because of significant administrative difficulties. For example, the difficulty of transferring pension entitlements - both State and occupational - across an international border has proved to be one of the most significant disincentives for individual officers to participate in long-term movement between the forces.

The last 50:50 recruitment campaign to the PSNI ended in Northern Ireland in 2011. From a small number of applicants from An Garda Síochána, one detective garda was accepted as a detective constable in the PSNI in March 2012. It was necessary for him to resign from An Garda Síochána to transfer to the PSNI and his pension was non-transferable and, therefore, frozen. He had to begin paying into the UK police pension scheme. However, I understand the transfer has been a hugely positive career development and he has been warmly received by colleagues in the PSNI. However, the fact remains that there is a considerable financial disincentive in such a move by members of An Garda Síochána. Any garda who wishes to transfer would also have the added instability of having to reapply for a post in An Garda Síochána when his or her period of service in the PSNI ended. The methodology for re-entry needs to be examined.

Speaking in Seanad Éireann ten years ago, former Senator Maurice Hayes said:

There is no point in laying down the legislation and making a provision if it is not taken up. By and large, people will not take up positions unless they see them as being of some advantage to them, in terms of their career, career development and the rest of it. At the very least, they should not lose money. It is a sensible and general rule that when somebody is seconded, he or she is offered his or her existing terms and conditions. There may also be a relocation allowance and an incentive for those separated from their families [This is the case for the PSNI, but it does not apply in the South].

Unfortunately, these points still ring true today as the position for gardaí who wish to transfer to the PSNI for a period has not changed in so far as they are still at a financial disadvantage and also at a disadvantage when they wish to resume service in the Republic because they must reapply to obtain a post they held previously or apply for a new one altogether.

The Senator should conclude.

I have a few questions for the Minister. Occasionally members of An Garda Síochána have gone to work with international organisations such as the International Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia. In these cases the members resigned with an option to reapply to An Garda Síochána when they had completed their work. Is the position similar for Garda members who choose to transfer between the Garda and the PSNI - that they must resign, their pension is frozen and they must apply to rejoin the force? Clarification is necessary. I would like to think the transfer and exchange of personnel between the two forces is something the Government is interested in promoting. The Minister is only a short time in office, but he has introduced much reforming legislation. I ask him to consider undertaking work on the transfer-exchange programme.

I have another question for the Minister. Does the Government have plans in the short or longer term to address the pension issue that acts as a disincentive in transfers between the forces? Will consideration be given to offering incentives to members of An Garda Síochána to transfer to the PSNI for periods of up to three years? This might be mutually beneficial. Will the Minister consider allowing members of An Garda Síochána to assist the PSNI in policing events such as the recent G8 summit? That is what was considered in the Patten agreement, but it is not being implemented. It would provide gardaí with invaluable training-----

The Senator is way over time.

I have just one other question. Former Senator Maurice Hayes raised an important issue ten years ago-----

The Senator has used up more than her time.

Just one more minute, please. I refer to the attractive remuneration package which includes mortgage interest relief, travel costs and moving expenses. The conditions under which a member may re-enter An Garda Síochána should be written down. Are officers who take a proactive approach and move to the PSNI likely to be punished for showing such initiative? Does the Garda Síochána promote the gaining of such experience as being desirable and an advantage? Would a member who takes such an initiative be subject to the current moratorium on recruitment? It is clear that the process, as envisaged, is not working. I hope the Minister will encourage those at higher ranks to participate in the transfer programme. Will we continue in the way we have done for the past 14 years? It is ten years since former Senator Maurice Hayes raised the matter in the House and I hope the Minister will be able to do something about it in his term of office.

I thank the Senator for raising this issue. On 29 April 2002 the Irish and British Governments signed an agreement on police co-operation providing a framework for the implementation of certain Patten commission recommendations on enhanced police co-operation. I am pleased to inform the House that all of the necessary administrative and legislative measures are in place to allow for implementation of these recommendations. The legislative measures were set out in the Garda Síochána (Police Co-operation) Act 2003 which, in turn, was incorporated into the Garda Síochána Act 2005. It is worth recalling that Article 1 of the recommendations deals with lateral entry, that Article 2 deals with secondments with police powers and that Article 5 deals with personnel exchanges without police powers. Regulations under the Act were required to provide for lateral entry and these are now in place. Regulations were not required for secondments and personnel exchanges. The implementation of these articles continues to be a key measure towards improving the level of cross-community confidence in the impartiality of the criminal justice system.

It was proposed that personnel provisions of the intergovernmental agreement would take place on an incremental basis, commencing with personnel exchanges without police powers, then secondments with police powers and, finally, lateral entry. On 21 February 2005 the Garda Commissioner and the Chief Constable of the PSNI signed protocols which provided for the implementation of a programme of personnel exchanges and secondments between An Garda Síochána and the Police Service of Northern Ireland. These protocols set out a framework for the operation of both personnel exchanges and secondments. In practice, exchanges take place for periods of between one and two months, without the exercise of police powers in the host jurisdiction.

A total of 89 members of An Garda Síochána and 76 members of the Police Service of Northern Ireland have taken part in exchange programmes under the auspices of the protocols. These programmes have been very successful, with exchanges taking place across the whole spectrum of policing areas, including training, human resources, general operational policing and specialist areas. Outside the ambit of the formal agreement, training and education exchanges have also taken place between the Garda College and the PSNI in a number of areas, including the exchange of teacher-trainers, a senior investigation officers' course, public order training and a firearms instructors' course. A joint diversity training programme took place involving personnel in the Border division and the PSNI. Following on from discussions between An Garda Síochána and the Police Service of Northern Ireland, each exchange is now concluded with a comprehensive debriefing session involving representatives of both organisations and each participant in the exchange.

The key difference between personnel exchanges and secondments is that members of either force who are seconded to the other force exercise full police powers in the host jurisdiction. Under section 54 of the Garda Síochána Act 2005, the Commissioner may, on application by a member of An Garda Síochána, arrange with the Chief Constable for the member's secondment to the PSNI for a period not exceeding three years. As the Senator stated, one Garda superintendent was seconded to the PSNI from An Garda Síochána for a period on 18 months in March 2010. I understand this was a very successful secondment. I very much hope there will be further such secondments, although they are, of course, subject to the operational exigencies of the two police services. That said, it is important that the Patten commission recommendations are fully implemented. I know that the Garda Commissioner is very committed to building on and enhancing cross-Border co-operation across all aspects of policing. I must stress at this stage that any member of An Garda Síochána who participates in an exchange programme or takes up a secondment position with the PSNI does so in the full knowledge that his or her employment status within An Garda Síochána remains completely intact.

Turning to the issue of lateral entry, the intergovernmental agreement obliged both Governments to introduce the necessary administrative and legislative measures to enable members of one force to apply for posts at ranks of above inspector level in the other force. Section 52 of the Garda Síochána Acts 2005 to 2007 provides for the implementation of these provisions for the appointment of members of the PSNI to ranks above inspector level in An Garda Síochána. In 2012 I introduced regulations, namely, the Garda Síochána Act 2005 (Police Service of Northern Ireland Appointments) Regulations 2012 and the Garda Síochána Act 2005 (Section 52) Regulations 2012, to give legal effect to the provisions mentioned. By way of letter, dated 10 September 2012, the Chief Constable of the Police Service of Northern Ireland was notified of the holding of promotion competitions for the ranks of superintendent and chief superintendent in An Garda Síochána. Expressions of interest from members of the Police Service of Northern Ireland were received and subsequently two briefing sessions were held at the Garda College in Templemore in September 2012. The appointments from this competition have been made and on this occasion did not include any member of the PSNI.

Pension transfer is a particularly difficult issue that applies to all public sector workers moving between different jurisdictions. There is no general provision for a transfer of pension benefit from one state to another. In the case of lateral entry, where a member of An Garda Síochána resigns his or her position to join the PSNI, or vice versa, that member will retain pension entitlements which, in the case of An Garda Síochána, would be due at age 60 and commence new pension payments with the PSNI. There are certain circumstances where a member of An Garda Síochána who resigns from the force to take up employment with another police force or in the private sector may apply to the Commissioner to be reinstated. In doing so, that person must be able to show the additional experience and skills set acquired outside the force will be of benefit to the force in the future.

I have developed a close working relationship with my ministerial counterpart in Northern Ireland, David Ford, which is of great benefit in addressing matters of mutual concern and enhancing effective police and criminal justice co-operation. Along with our officials, we will continue to address the operation of these personnel transfer and exchange arrangements to ensure they can be made as beneficial as is possible to the two police services and, indeed, to policing on this island.

In summarising my response to the points made by Senator Keane, I reiterate that mechanisms are in place for the orderly transfer of members, permanently or temporarily, between the PSNI and the Garda Síochána. I look forward to building on the progress which has been made in this regard. I would have to say in response to the questions the Senator asked that of course there is no question of anyone being punished for taking an initiative. It is a lot more simple and straightforward in the area of secondments. Of course a direct lateral transfer will be much more complicated. In effect, it involves someone ceasing to be a member of the Garda Síochána and becoming a member of the PSNI. I am determined to encourage the continued exchange of members between the Garda Síochána and the PSNI in the manner that has been successful to date. The next time I meet Minister Ford, I intend to raise with him the further steps that might be taken to ensure the full intent and objective of what was previously agreed is actually working in practice.

The Minister's final statement, about his intention to raise with his Northern Ireland counterpart the question of whether what was agreed is working in practice, was the best part of his reply. As I said at the outset, it is not working in practice. Just one member relocated in each of the years 2009-10 and 2012-13. Why is this not working in practice? There is a financial disincentive. As Maurice Hayes said ten years ago, "People will not take up positions" in such circumstances. That is one thing. When the Minister referred to the uncertainty about having one's job guaranteed if one wishes to come back into the force, he said one must be able to show that the experience gained outside the force will be "of benefit to the force in the future". I suppose there is a degree of uncertainty there. The Minister also mentioned that when applications were received, no member of the PSNI took up the possibility of transferring down here for the purposes of promotion. All I will say is that it is not working. Actions speak louder than words. The Minister might think it is working, given that one member transferred in each of 2009 and 2012, but I do not think it is. It is definitely not what was envisaged. I hope the Minister will encourage it. I thank him for-----

I know my time is up, but I am not really satisfied. If we want this to work, we could do something with pension arrangements. The PSNI has-----

Senator, do I have to say it again?

The Senator should not make a speech. She is supposed to ask a question.

I am just asking the Minister about his intention to take this up with the PSNI.

The Minister gave a very comprehensive reply.

Financial and travel incentives are needed to encourage transfers to take place. Ordinary, everyday things could be done to make it easier for people to advance North-South co-operation. Basically, that is all we are looking for.

The regulations I mentioned - the Garda Síochána Act 2005 (Police Service of Northern Ireland Appointments) Regulations and the Garda Síochána Act 2005 (Section 52) Regulations - were not made until 2012. They have not been in place for a lengthy period of time. They allow members of the PSNI to apply for promotions into the Garda. We will have to wait and see how that works.

The issue in this regard is that individual gardaí cannot be compelled to make applications to transfer into the PSNI, and vice versa. People choose their careers and have career paths. In the current financial climate, I do not have the funding to provide additional financial incentives for people to transfer from the Garda to the PSNI. As Minister for Justice and Equality, I have to try to ensure we have as many members in our police force as possible. I am very happy to encourage the implementation of the intent of what was put in place. I am happy to discuss it with Minister Ford. I do not envisage that funding will be available to me to incentivise members of the Garda to apply for posts in the PSNI.

The pension issue is not quite as complicated as it sounds. If someone transfers from one force to the other, he or she retains the benefit of all the pension contributions he or she made in the force of which he or she was a member. He or she will then start making additional pension contributions in the new force. Obviously, an entitlement to certain pension payments would accumulate arising from that. I have no doubt we will return to this issue on another occasion.

Will the Minister comment on the applications I mentioned? The people in question were not qualified because they did not have a certain type of training. That is why there were no transfers between the PSNI and the Garda at senior ranks. I refer to the qualifications issue I was reading about.

I am not familiar with the issue.

If Senator Keane wishes, she can ask the Leader of the House to arrange a full debate on the matter.

I hope we will not leave it ten years again.

The Seanad adjourned at 7.15 p.m. until 10.30 a.m. on Wednesday, 19 June 2013.
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