Adjournment Matters

Animal Welfare

Senator Trevor Ó Clochartaigh

Cuirim céad fáilte roimh an Aire agus táim thar a bheith buíoch dó as teacht isteach ar an cheist seo. Ceist í seo faoi chapaill, ceist atá ag tarraingt go leor cainte i nGaillimh le tamall anuas, idir an chathair agus an contae.

As I have outlined to the Minister previously, stray horses in Galway city and county have been the subject of a lot of debate in recent times, particularly at the joint policing committees of the city and county and in other forums in the area. I tabled my motion in order to get a handle on the situation in Galway and nationally, if possible. The matter was debated in a fair amount of detail when we discussed the Animal Health and Welfare Bill. I commend the Minister's commitment to the health and welfare of stray animals.

A recent meeting of the joint policing committee in Galway was attended by Mr. Eugene Cummins, director of services who deals with the issue in Galway. He astounded us with the information that €212,700 will be spent this year as a result of the neglect of horses in the county. I know that a similar issue pertains in the city. I believe the cost is due to a number of different factors. It has been indicated that people from certain ethnic backgrounds have an issue with regard to the welfare of horses, but I believe the problem is much broader than that. People who bought horses during the good times but are not now in a position to keep them leave the animals to stray. Stray animals have caused many issues in the city and county. Obviously the health and welfare of animals is the biggest issue, but stray horses also pose a danger to local communities.

At that same meeting, Mr. Cummins gave us another figure. He stated that 98% of the horses seized by the county council were not chipped and did not have equine passports, which makes it difficult to trace their owners. Many changes have been made to legislation in recent times. However, €212,700 is a large amount of money and must be an even greater expense on the State. I am not sure if Galway is a particularly expensive county when it comes to this issue.

I sought clarification from the director of services on the day of the meeting. I asked him whether the money came out of the coffers of the local authority or whether it could be claimed back from the Department. My understanding from what the Minister said previously was that local authorities could claim it back from the Department. He might also indicate whether that has happened in the case of Galway City Council.

We all come from the same place and want to respect horse culture and traditions. We certainly want to facilitate, in any way possible, communities which have such a culture. However, that must be managed and done in a regulated and responsible manner. Above all, the safety, health and welfare of the animals must come first. We need to work on a cross-agency basis at local level in conjunction with the Department to ensure this work is done properly. Policing of passports for animals is also an issue. That is why I want to know how much has been spent in these areas and what can be done to eliminate the difficulties in the area.

Minister for Agriculture, Food and the Marine (Deputy Simon Coveney)

I was anxious to come here to answer the question myself because this is a serious matter. The issue costs a lot of money and resources but it is one that I, as a Minister, am personally committed to. We need to change attitudes towards the welfare of horses among some communities in Ireland and we are taking action to ensure that happens at present.

Rather than read my answer, which the Senator will receive anyway, let me give some figures and commentary. The first year the Senator asked about was 2011. In 2011, we gave just over €2.7 million to local authorities, which claimed for the seizure of fewer than 3,000 horses in the year. In 2012, the sum was €2.2 million, or just under that figure, and 2,969 horses were seized. So far this year we have spent about €1.8 million and exactly 3,288 horses have been seized across all county council areas.

We have acted, and are acting, in a way that is consistent with the Control of Horses Act 1996. The legislation allows my Department to work with local authorities and pays them the cost of dealing with stray horses. Since then there have been more regulations and legislation, which has led to a more focused response to the issue of stray horses, or horses that are vulnerable to potential welfare issues. We have the Animal Health and Welfare Bill, which we debated for many hours in the House. We now have regulations that require horse identification in the form of a microchip and passport. Horse owners now have an obligation to have a registered equine address for their animals in order for them to be deemed the legal owner. That provision, combined with the Control of Horses Act 1996, allows us to take a more comprehensive approach towards dealing with stray horses.

This evening I want to send a clear signal to people. We are approaching the issue from one perspective only - the welfare of animals.

If my Department deems that horses are at risk of being abused or having their welfare compromised, we will act. We have been acting across the country in partnership with local authorities, consistent with the legislation, and in some cases with the Garda. For example, last week in Cork we seized 82 horses in an operation co-ordinated with the Garda, vets and Cork City Council. The horses are now impounded and their former owners can claim them back if they can show they have a passport for them and an equine-registered address where they can put them to be looked after. If they cannot show these, we will not give the horses back because we do not believe it would be in the interest of the horses' welfare. We now have the legislation to back up our position. We had an unfortunate revolving-door system whereby horses were being confiscated by local authorities for all the right reasons only to re-enter the system on being reclaimed by their owners. This was crazy and the unfortunate victims were the horses themselves. We are now going to put a stop to that.

If it is the case that 98% of horses seized in County Galway this year had no identification in the form of a microchip and passport, we will microchip them. One will not be able to reclaim them unless one accepts full responsibility for their ownership, pays for their identification documentation and shows proof of an equine-registered address for them to go to. In other words, the days of allowing horses to roam across publicly owned land, NAMA-owned land or abandoned development land are over. We will be starting to confiscate horses from such areas if we believe their welfare is likely to be or is currently being compromised.

With regard to the horses confiscated in Cork, for example, eight had to be put down because of welfare concerns. Two of them may have been claimed back and we are seeking to re-home a large proportion of the others. We are having some success in that regard, which is great. Ireland is a horse-loving country, as is the United Kingdom, and a considerable number of people are willing to take horses on a compassionate basis and put them out to grass. However, we need to be realistic about how we deal with this issue. I suspect that by the end of this year, we will have spent over €3 million on horse seizures with local authorities. The Senator can say to the county manager in Galway that we will, of course, work with him as long as he can show and guarantee an efficient management system associated with the seizure of horses. A number of local authorities are now working together to have more efficiency in the system, which is why there is an increase in the number of seizures and a reduction in the overall cost, although costs this year will be higher because the number of seizures will be much higher.

My first concern is the welfare of the animals. I am obliged to do what I can to guarantee and protect the welfare of animals, regardless of who owns them. We have an animal welfare hotline number, 1850 211990. If people have concerns about the welfare of horses or any other animals, I want to hear about it. The telephone number is the same welfare number people used during the fodder crisis. We will act on reported cases. If there are horse owners who feel that, for whatever reason, they do not have sufficient resources, land or fodder to feed animals over the winter months, we need to hear about it. We will intervene and I will provide a budget to do so. We will change the way in which horses in some parts of Ireland have been treated.

I do not want to hear anything about tradition as an excuse for compromising welfare. I want to see us proactively examining ways in which we can support communities that may not have access to land, but which may have a very strong traditional link with horses. This needs to be done in a regulated, supervised and controlled manner to ensure we look after the welfare of the animals first and foremost. In the absence of that, we will act and are acting. There is growing evidence to suggest we are taking this more seriously as the months go by.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

An bhfuil an Seanadóir sásta?

Senator Trevor Ó Clochartaigh

Táim thar a bheith sásta. That was a very comprehensive answer and I appreciate it. I concur with almost everything the Minister said. Can I take from his figures that he and his Department would consider supporting a cross-agency approach to people from groups such as the Traveller community who have a tradition of keeping horses? Does he believe that, where appropriate, areas could be set up in places such as Galway where the tradition could be practised and where horses could be kept safely? Could it not be done in a regulated manner with people taking responsibility for the horses they own?

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

The Senator is broadening the question.

Deputy Simon Coveney

I would really like to see that happen but I cannot pay for it. My job under the Control of Horses Act is to provide the finance to allow local authorities to deal with stray horses. However, I strongly encourage local authorities to try to find the resources to allow for managed settings to permit the Traveller community, in particular, to interact with and own horses. Its members have a strong emotional connection with horses. It is a powerful connection but it is not an excuse to allow for the welfare of animals to be compromised. When stray horses are vulnerable, we will act. We will insist on the regulations being abided by in terms of the microchipping of and issuing of passports for horses and knowing the addresses where they are kept. This is now a requirement under EU regulations and Irish law. Following the passage of the Animal Health and Welfare Bill, there is also a responsibility on animal owners to look after the welfare of their animals, be those owners farmers, pet owners in an urban environment or members of a minority community. We will enforce the regulations and send out a very strong and clear signal that owning an animal is not only a privilege but also a responsibility. Of course, I would like to see local authorities assisting communities that want to own horses, but this has to be in the context of looking after the welfare of those animals and abiding by the regulations.

State Properties

Senator Martin Conway

Cuirim fáilte roimh an Aire Stáit go dtí an Teach. Regeneration is great and has certainly helped communities. The most recent glowing example of regeneration's potential is in the Ballymun area of Dublin. The residents of Ballymun will benefit and are benefiting enormously from it. It is said that one cannot make an omelette without breaking some eggs, but sometimes there are eggs within the community that are too precious to be broken. One is a community group that has been operating in the Ballymun area for over 30 years, Dogs Aid. Not alone has it a proud tradition of caring for and looking after dogs but it also provides a very valuable resource to low-paid families and provides support to their pets, sometimes free of charge but in the majority of instances for a very low cost.

As part of regeneration in Ballymun, an area called Balbutcher Lane has effectively ceased to exist. That is where Dogs Aid had its centre and clinic; it is where it looked after the dogs. Unfortunately, the organisation is now homeless and has been operating from the back of a van with a battery-operated generator for the past three weeks. I am sure the Minister can appreciate that, during the recent inclement weather, that has not been satisfactorily from the perspective of the volunteers, animals or those who bring their animals.

Ballymun Garda station was closed as part of the Government's policy of streamlining Garda stations and channelling resources in a more efficient way. I understand the OPW is in charge of the building. It would be an ideal building in which to house Dogs Aid, even on a temporary basis.

The Minister needs to consider what benefits the community and look at organisations that have proven themselves and lasted the test of time as being ones that are there for the genuine betterment of the community.

As was stated in the previous Adjournment matter, animals are precious but they also bring with them responsibilities. The responsibility for animal welfare does not only reside with the individuals who own them. As a State, we have a responsibility to ensure that we provide the structure where animals can be treated properly.

I hope that what is a sensible solution to a problem that has presented itself as a result of progress is something that the Minister of State's colleagues in the OPW will take on board and that we will see Dogs Aid in Ballymun getting a temporary home in the disused Garda station.

Minister of State at the Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government (Deputy Fergus O'Dowd)

I thank Senator Conway for bringing this matter to the attention of the Oireachtas and assure him that the Minister of State, Deputy Brian Hayes, will be made aware of his comments directly.

The property in question is leased by the OPW from Dublin City Council. It was originally leased from the local authority in 1972 for use as a Garda station. Following the completion of the more modern Garda station in Ballymun in August 2008, the property was vacated. The OPW is in consultation with the local authority with a view to surrendering the lease.

Any decision on the future use of this property is a matter for Dublin City Council.

On the State's property assets, the Government is committed to reforming property asset management in the public service to ensure value for the taxpayer. The stated policy for closed Garda stations is to identify, first, whether other State bodies, including Departments and the wider public sector, have a use for them. If no State requirement is identified, the OPW will consider disposing of the property on the open market in order to generate revenue for the Exchequer.

If a decision is taken not to dispose of a particular property, the OPW will consider community involvement, subject to the receipt of an appropriate business case which would indicate that the community or voluntary group has the means to insure, maintain and manage the property and there is no cost to the Exchequer in the short, medium or long term.

Senator Martin Conway

I thank the Minister of State, Deputy O'Dowd, for a factual and comprehensive reply.

It would be extremely helpful to Dogs Aid in Ballymun if the Minister of State with responsibility for the OPW, Deputy Brian Hayes, were to let it be known to the city manager that it would be his wish that Dogs Aid would be accommodated here on a temporary basis until such time as it can find more suitable long-term accommodation. I suggest a letter or communication from Deputy Brian Hayes's office to the city manager. Obviously, the Minister of State does not have power to direct the city manager to do it but I am sure the city manager would take seriously a proposal from the Minister of State at the Department of Finance with responsibility for the OPW.

Deputy Fergus O'Dowd

I will bring the Senator's views to the direct attention of the Minister of State. If they have not already done so, it might be useful if the community groups, the support services or those who are interested and support Dogs Aid would so communicate.

Senator Martin Conway

I will advise them to do that. I thank Deputy O'Dowd.

Hospital Services

Senator Mark Daly

I thank the Minister of State, Deputy O'Dowd, for coming to the House.

I raise this matter to clarify the number of paediatric tracheotomy patients in Ireland and the number of registered nurses who are able to perform the procedure, how many of those are in the hospitals around the country and also how many are able to show parents how to perform the procedure.

Unfortunately, there have been some tragic cases in the past while where, because of the parents' inability to perform the procedure, children have died. In some cases when looking for assistance from nursing staff who have not been properly trained in the procedure, tragedies have occurred.

I ask the Minister to outline to the House what the Government is doing to ensure that as many of the health care professionals throughout the State as possible are properly trained and qualified and that procedures are in place to ensure that tragedies, such as those that occurred in Kilkenny and in Cork, do not happen in the future.

Deputy Fergus O'Dowd

I thank Senator Daly for bringing this matter before the Seanad. I assure him that I will bring it to the attention of the Minister of State at the Department of Health, Deputy Kathleen Lynch.

In answer to the Senators specific questions in relation to the number of paediatric tracheotomies and nursing care, I will put the following on the record of the Seanad.

Information available from the hospital inpatient inquiry database would indicate that the number of children between zero and 16 years who have had this procedure and have been discharged from hospital is relatively small. Of the 74 such discharges between 2010 and 2012, the majority have been from Crumlin children's hospital, 41 discharges, and the Children's University Hospital, Temple Street, 21 discharges. However, it is not possible to say how many of those children were discharged with the tracheostomies still in place.

The active register of the Nursing and Midwifery Board of Ireland has a total of 4,274 individuals holding a children's paediatric qualification. This does not mean that all of these are actively practising in this discipline. Individuals may hold more than one qualification and as such may be practising in another division of the register. It is also possible that individuals may not be practising at all, but still pay annual retention fees to maintain their names on the register. Under new requirements set out in the Nurses and Midwives Act 2011, future registration will capture more defined information on current employment. This will allow for more accurate analysis of the active register, including numbers of practising paediatric nurses.

The HSE established a working group to examine the discharge of infants or children with complex health care needs from the acute paediatric hospitals in Dublin mid-Leinster in July 2012. The group comprised representatives from the paediatric hospitals, HSE primary care, nursing agencies, Jack & Jill Foundation, LauraLynn House and University College Dublin.

The group is finalising its report and will submit it to the national director for quality and patient safety. Findings indicate the following needs: establish a clinical governance model for children discharged into the community; ensure that all staff providing care to children with complex needs are fully trained; and develop a support package for parents.

It is proposed that these recommendations will apply throughout the HSE. A key recommendation concerns the need for a detailed paediatric home care package to be agreed prior to the child's discharge from hospital, with a detailed specification outlining the care requirement for each child and family. A paediatric home care package needs to include a key worker to advise everyone within the family on all aspects of the child's care and trained nursing-care staff.

The provision of safe home care for children who are well enough to leave hospital, such as these children, is a priority for the Minister for Health. He has highlighted care at home for children who have had to undergo tracheotomies as a priority service area for the HSE in planning its services in 2014. The Minister is meeting the advocacy group tomorrow. The HSE has informed the Minister that, following publication of the national service plan for 2014, officials will meet in early December to discuss future steps to deliver on the working group's recommendations in 2014.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

An bhfuil an Seanadoír sásta? Is the Senator happy?

Senator Mark Daly

I do not know.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

The Senator can ask a brief supplementary.

Senator Mark Daly

I thank the Minister of State, Deputy O'Dowd. I note this is not his specific area. I wish that the Minister for Health would come into the House.

I asked the Minister to clarify the number of paediatric tracheotomy patients and to clarify the number of nurses who are competent to carry out and train in the tracheotomy procedure. In brief, the answer to the first question was it is not possible to say how many children were discharged with tracheostomies in place. The other answer, in a page and a half, was basically that the Department does not know how many nurses are trained to do this.

Perhaps the Minister of State will indicate whether I have got the wrong end of the stick. I must inform him, however, that the question I posed was not answered in the two pages of script he read into the record. It said a lot but it also said very little. I am not criticising the Minister of State; rather, I am stating that the two-page reply supplied by officials from the Department of Health to a matter raised on the Adjournment by a Member of the Oireachtas contains only one line in reference to that matter, namely, "it is not possible to say how many of those children were discharged with the tracheostomies still in place". The fact that the information I am seeking could not be supplied is a cause for concern. In addition, the Department does not know the exact position with regard to the qualifications of nurses.

Instead of insisting on the Minister of State reading out the reply in the House, the officials to whom I refer should have been honest and stated that they do not have a clue. That would have been the best answer they could provide. I ask the Minister of State to return to those officials and state that it is not acceptable that a public representative be provided with a reply as disgraceful as that which has been read into the record of the House. I do not blame the Minister for Health or the Minister of State in respect of this matter.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

The Senator's lack of pleasure with the reply is noted. However, the Minister of State is not the line Minister. If he wants to make a brief comment-----

Senator Mark Daly

Absolutely, and I do not-----

Deputy Fergus O'Dowd

It is very important that the views of all Oireachtas Members - including those of Senator Daly - should be brought to the attention of the Minister. The Minister stands over the reply because it comes from him. Notwithstanding what the Senator stated, the most important aspect to note is that there will be a meeting with representatives from the advocacy group tomorrow. In other words, the people involved, who have deep, abiding and very real concerns, will be met and the issues outlined by the Senator - who also has concerns - will be dealt with tomorrow and will be the subject of direct answers from the Minister.

Another important point is that the existing requirements did not allow for the capture of the data which the Senator, quite rightly, is seeking. Under the new requirements, future registration will capture more defined information in respect of those who are working and practising in this specific area. I am satisfied that the solution to this problem is contained in the relevant legislation, which was passed in 2011. In other words, the lacuna in our knowledge is being filled. Information on the counties from which the patients come is not provided but statistics are supplied with regard to the hospitals at which they presented and had procedures carried out. The data gap is quite small and really relates to patients' point of origin. We are aware of the number involved and the hospitals where they were treated. However, we do not know if patients had tracheostomies in place when they were discharged. These are all important matters. I am assured that no one was allowed to leave the hospital without the proper discharge protocols being observed and adequate and proper care policies being in place.

HSE Funding

Senator Colm Burke

This matter arises on foot of a reply I received on 17 October to a question in respect of section 38 and section 39 organisations which I submitted to the Joint Committee on Health and Children in September. I have in my possession the appendix to the 2012 annual report of the HSE, which indicates that some 2,680 organisations are receiving funding from the executive. The total amount of that funding is €3.27 billion, which is over 25% of the health budget. As already stated, I received a reply on 17 October last to a question I posed in September as to whether moneys additional to those set out in the guidelines laid down by the HSE were being paid. While I was supplied with a generic answer, people in the media seem to have been given many more details two weeks later. However, that is how the political system works and I must accept it.

I am now specifically concerned about the fact that salaries paid out by section 39 organisations do not have to correspond with the guidelines set out for HSE employees. It is in that context that I raise this matter. As already indicated, 2,680 organisations - hospitals, etc. - are receiving funding from the HSE. In view of the debate that has taken place in the past two weeks, will new procedures be put in place in respect of section 39 organisations to ensure both accountability and proper disbursement of the funding allocated? I fully accept that the HSE and the Department of Health are involved in work to revise the position in the area to which I refer. Will the Minister of State indicate where we go from here in respect of this matter?

Deputy Fergus O'Dowd

I thank Senator Colm Burke for raising this important matter. There is a long history of non-statutory service providers providing health and personal social services in Ireland. While many of these organisations have access to financial resources through fund-raising, they rely substantially on the HSE to fund the services the provide. The HSE funds a range of service providers under either section 38 or section 39 of the Health Act 2004. Section 38 arrangements involve the funding of organisations to provide services on behalf of the HSE, while under section 39 the executive grant-aids a wide range of organisations to a greater or lesser extent. As the Senator pointed out, some of the section 39 providers receive very substantial amounts from public funds. Staff of bodies funded under section 38 are classified as public servants and are subject to the standard salary scales for the health sector, as well as having public service pension schemes and being counted in public service employment numbers. Employees of agencies that receive grants from the HSE under section 39 are not public servants and are not specifically subject to the pay scales approved for public servants. I acknowledge the contribution of such service providers to the development of health and personal social services.

The HSE is committed to the development of effective working relationships in line with the provisions of the Health Act 2004, which provides that the executive may, subject to resources and on such terms and conditions as it considers appropriate, fund services provided by non-statutory providers. Significant progress has been made in improving the governance and management framework between the HSE and voluntary service providers. In line with the Comptroller and Auditor General's 2005 report on value for money in the disability sector, a register of non-statutory agencies' service arrangements and grant aid agreements is in operation. This provides local, regional and national management information on more than 2,600 separate agencies which operate more than 4,300 discrete funding arrangements to a value of approximately €3.3 billion. This register is managed by the HSE business support unit and has created a unique identifier for each agency. It allows for the maintenance of key information on each separate funding arrangement, including current and historic funding, compliance with national standards, governance documentation and key contact details.

To ensure that the HSE and the non-statutory sector meet their obligations, the executive has developed a formalised national governance framework with national standard governance documentation to manage the funding. This governance documentation was developed in 2009 with the agreement of all major service providers and came into operation in 2010. Governance documents ensure a national standard consistent application of good governance and eliminate the need for individual contracts to be created each time the HSE funds an agency. This process represents value for money, in that there is a ready-made contract for all funding arrangements, and provides governance that is robust and effective, ensuring that the HSE and the agencies meet their respective obligations. The national suite of documentation is applied according to the nature and scale of the funding and services involved and contains the appropriate corporate, clinical and financial governance requirements. This documentation is the subject of regular review. In 2011 significant changes were introduced, including an extension of the section 38 clause to ensure that only salaries within public sector norms would apply to all funded agencies. In 2013 an additional information return was added to all section 38 and section 39 arrangements. This requires agencies to report separately on all individual staff paid at grade 8 level equivalent or above and provide details on their salaries, including those relating to allowances and any other benefits.

The HSE ensures a continual focus on compliance with the governance framework and has included this as a key performance indicator for both corporate and regional reporting. At the end of 2012, almost 98% of funding was covered by the governance document.

Given the significance of the sector, all senior management in the Health Service Executive have key responsibilities within the governance framework. A national support structure is in place which includes local and regional heads and a national governance group forum supported by the national business support unit. Various guides and process control forms are maintained alongside a comprehensive operational manual which is in the approval process and awaiting formal adoption.

Since the introduction of the governance framework in 2009, a number of projects have been undertaken to examine the management structures to ensure they are effective. The key recommendations from these projects relate to the need for the HSE to build on the management processes which the national standard governance documentation and operational procedures have established.

Senator Colm Burke

I thank the Minister of State for his reply. He indicated an additional information return was added to all service arrangements in 2013 requiring agencies to separately report on all individual staff paid at grade 8. I was not informed of this when I received a reply on this matter in October. At that time, it was stated that the Health Service Executive did not have the power to seek such information. Has this information been received from all relevant agencies? In other words, has the new requirement to provide information on all staff at grade 8 or above been complied with?

Deputy Fergus O'Dowd

Senator Burke is seeking transparency in respect of the requirement to provide information and whether it is has been supplied. As I am not a Minister in the Department, I will ask the Minister to revert to him directly on this important issue.

The Seanad adjourned at 6.35 p.m. until 10.30 a.m. on Wednesday, 27 November 2013.

Seanad Éireann díospóireacht - Tuesday, 26 Nov 2013