I propose an amendment to the Order of Business that was agreed to earlier. I propose that No. 11, non-Government motion No. 6, be taken at the conclusion of No. 1. The motion will be debated without a Minister and the debate shall be confined to groups' spokespeople who will take five minutes each. They can share time, if they so wish.
Business of Seanad
Are the arrangements agreed to?
Has the Leader consulted the Whips on the matter?
I spoke to some of the party Whips after the debate, but I could not get to everybody. The proposal does not call on a Minister to do anything. It is a motion of the House to establish a committee of the House. As the Senator will know from the Order of Business, the motion deals with the terms and conditions to set up a Seanad committee to deal with the role of councillors.
I wish to make a practical point. An announcement has been made at short notice that everybody will have an opportunity to speak. Have all of the party or group Whips been informed in order that they can make somebody available to make a contribution?
Notification is being circulated to them.
When was it circulated?
Once the House agrees to it.
Is the Leader proposing that we will deal with the matter in 15 minutes?
It will be dealt with at the conclusion of the item we are discussing. Each group will have an opportunity to speak. To assist the Senator, it is the creation of an all-party or cross-party committee of the House. The motion has to be debated this evening. We do not need a Minister to do so and I am quite happy to allow us to have the debate. Consensus has emerged. It is not a case of-----
Am I correct that it is a Fianna Fáil amendment?
Has Fianna Fáil agreed to do this?
Yes. The motion calls on us to establish a committee of the House.
Is that agreed?
I thank the Leader for coming to the House. The problem we have is that a number of the Senators who spoke on this matter are not available in the House to make a comment. We do not have feedback from the Whips at this stage and, therefore, do not know whether they have considered the matter. Can we defer making a decision until we hear back from the Whips?
With respect to the Senator, we are getting excited over precious little. What we are debating is the agreement to establish a committee. It will be up to us to put the structure in place, if that is what the House wants to do at a later date. I earnestly ask the Members to allow us to proceed. The motion was taken on the Order of Business and, as a consequence, must be taken this evening.
The proposal seems reasonable to me, if the party that put forward the amendment is happy about taking it. We are not filling the committee; we are just talking about its formation.
Correct.
I ask the Leader to clarify which motion he is talking about.
It is No. 11, non-Government motion No. 6, which is in the name of Fianna Fáil Senators. We are not making a decision about the terms of reference or anything else today. We are just having a discussion to fulfil the obligations under the motion being carried.
Is that agreed? Agreed.
Hold on; it is not agreed to just yet.
Does the Senator wish to raise a point of order?
What is the Senator's point of order?
Frankly, this is not great practice. While I appreciate that it is good that we will have a debate, this is short notice and the Leader has not spoken to a Whip and extended invitations. Right now - this is ridiculous - I am texting my Whip to see if we can have somebody from my party available in 15 minutes time to take part and contribute to the debate. We have not been telephoned in advance or given advance notice. It is a basic courtesy to give notice. That is all I am saying.
On a point of order, it was agreed to earlier that the matter would be dealt with today.
For God's sake.
It was agreed.
The amendment was agreed to to because I was here.
If Senators are not in the Chamber, I believe they should be. The amendment was agreed to earlier.
It is a fix. It is a Fianna Fáil-Fine Gael carve-up every time.
I do not wish to have a row with the Senator. I spoke to Members afterwards in the Seanad ante-room about moving forward. The Leader of the House is courteous and works with everybody, including Sinn Féin and its party Whip. The Senator is not being fair to me or to the way we operate in his comments. The consequence of new politics is that the motion was carried and there is an obligation on us to take it this evening. Part of our difficulty was in deciding whether we needed a Minister. We do not need a Minister now. There is no discourtesy intended, meant or shown and for the Senator to accuse me of doing so is unfair. The motion is on the agenda and the Order Paper. It has been agreed to and as a consequence we must debate it tonight. It is a kick-off and will act as a preamble to what we will do later. As I made the point on the Order of Business, if we all want to achieve the end result, in terms of the role of and conditions for councillors, it is important that we speak with one voice, rather than with different ones.
I wish to make a final response.
On a point of order-----
We are not debating the matter.
I am not debating it.
We are not having a debate on it.
It is important to point out the following matter.
I will take a point of order. With respect, Senator------
I wish to raise a point of order.
I ask the Senator to show respect for the Chair.
I have not spoken at all until now.
I will accept the Senator's point of order but urge him to have patience.
I wish to raise a point of order.
We are not going to get into a big debate about this matter. What is the Senator's point of order?
My point of order is very simple. The motion was carried today. I was not involved in it at all.
That is not a point of order.
It is. The motion was agreed to today. Therefore, I knew that as a consequence at some stage today there there would be some discussion on the matter in the Chamber.
That is not a point of order.
Do you know what? Forget about it.
I will take it that the Leader's arrangements are acceptable to the House. Is that agreed?
It is not agreed.
It was agreed to already unanimously.
Is the proposal agreed to?
On a point of order, the Minister for Justice and Equality is sitting here. As we are not going to get agreement on this matter, can we continue on and debate legislation with the Minister in order that she can leave? We can sort out this matter at a meeting immediately afterwards, if necessary. It is unfair to have her sitting here waiting for us to solve a problem.
It is unfair.
I propose that we suspend for five minutes in order to facilitate a quick chat on the matter. Is that agreed? Agreed.
Sitting suspended at 5.55 p.m. and resumed at 6 p.m.
Are the arrangements proposed by the Leader agreed to? Agreed.