I remind members and officials to ensure their mobile phones are switched off for the duration of the meeting as they interfere with the broadcasting equipment, even when on silent remotely. The meeting has been convened to consider the Revised Estimates for Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science - Vote 45, which was referred to the committee by Dáil Éireann. I welcome the Minister of State at the Department of Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science, Deputy Collins, and his officials. I also thank them for the briefing documents provided to committee members. I call on the Minister of State to make his opening statement, to be followed by general questions on Vote 45.
Vote 45 - Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science (Revised)
The Revised Estimate for Vote 45 provides for a net allocation of €3.114 billion. This represents a gross allocation of €3.192 billion reduced by appropriations-in-aid of €78 million. The increased allocation of €409 million to Vote 45 is split into core and temporary by nature. The core allocation increase makes up the majority at more than €328 million. This significant investment will fund a number of major priorities across all areas of further and higher education, research innovation and science. As the committee will recognise, this is a sizeable sector with 400,000 people engaged in learning across the further and higher education landscape. The budget provides the necessary additional funding to advance our world-class education and training system and bolster its critical role in enabling the Government’s wider economic, social and environmental agendas.
This commitment can be seen with an additional investment of €144 million in the higher education sector in 2023. This funding will support the implementation of the reform programme, funding the future. It will also provide additional undergraduate places, including extra medicine places, to meet demographic demand. We have taken steps to address cost barriers to education by investing €80 million to provide increased supports to students. The Department is acutely aware of the need to support socioeconomically disadvantaged and under-represented students in accessing and participating successfully in higher education. This has been prioritised in the measures introduced as part of this budget. An additional allocation of €117 million has been provided to support upskilling and reskilling to meet the needs of individuals and the labour market in responding to the challenges created by the pandemic, climate change, digital transformation and Brexit. This additional investment brings the overall budget for skills to €592m on the Vote and to €1.4 billion overall when combined with the National Training Fund. The measures introduced for skills will increase capacity for apprenticeships, provide additional training places through Skillnet Ireland and drive delivery of some key priorities, including in further education and training and adult literacy for life. There is €81 million investment from temporary funding, targeting four key areas, of which I will give a brief overview.
First, there is €41 million through the national recovery and resilience programme to fund education and training reforms for the technological universities, TUs, and to support Science Foundation Ireland, SFI, in the implementation of the grand challenges programme. Second, €27 million is invested for the continued delivery by the education and training boards, ETBs, of the English for speakers of other languages programme to help individuals displaced by the war in Ukraine. Third, €7 million is invested to provide supports to the sector following the impact of Covid-19. These measures include maintaining mental health and well-being supports in higher education. Finally, there is €5.9 million through the Brexit adjustment reserve to address the impact of Brexit on the Erasmus+ scheme. The Department currently provides funding for 28,000 public servants and almost 13,000 public service pensioners. Some 47% of the Vote’s provision in 2023 is allocated to pay and pensions, reflecting the crucial work public servants are carrying out across the sector. The additions I have outlined, combined with the National Training Fund expenditure of €901 million brings the overall allocation for this Department to over €4 billion in 2023, thus making it the fourth largest revenue budget and the sixth largest capital budget across Departments. I trust this overview is of assistance to the committee. I am happy to discuss these issues in more detail, and we commend the Revised Estimate to the committee.
I thank the Minister of State for his statement. Why has there been €110 million, or 16%, reduction in funding under the heading, skills development, which predominantly funds further education? It is clear this is not the result of issues related to temporary funding. This has been driven by subheading A5 - grants to Solas for further education and training. There has here been a €120 million reduction, or 19%. That is a 19% cut irrespective of any temporary funding in 2022. The core funding of the further education by these figures is the lowest it has been since I have been on the committee. It was higher even in 2019. The other source of funding for skills is the National Training Fund. I flagged concerns last year when the budget was announced that the planned expenditure on the fund was being reduced by €82.5 million. I would like an explanation for that.
The movement in subhead A5 reflects a €75 million increase from budget 2023, along with a transfer of €163 million to the National Training Fund for the post-leaving certificate programme. An increase of €75 million is broken down as follows: €32 million for the Building Momentum pay agreement; €12 million for the national development plan, NDP, capital; €2 million for adult literacy for life; €840,000 for Housing for All; €2.6 million for cost-of-living increases; and €25 million for English courses for Ukrainians. I refer the Deputy to page 13 of the Vote pack. There are two graphs that I hope will be of assistance to her. In graph 1 the baseline in 2022 is €2.946 million. It shows the various measures, which amount to €3.92 billion. Underneath that, graph 2 outlines the various measures relating to the National Training Fund. We talked about figures at a high level in my opening statement. However, taking €901 million, which is the total in graph 2, and adding it to €3.92 billion it will bring the Deputy back to the figure I referred to in my opening contribution.
We talk about apprenticeships all of the time and I am very concerned about this area. For the past two years I have been highlighting issues with the inability of apprentices to obtain access to off-the-job training. Even when they can access the training, it is often on the other side of the country. I have consistently warned that the backlog in the system would impact new registrations.
It seems from the documents that the registration number was 7,500 although recent reports in the media put it at 8,300. Could the Minister of State confirm the total number of registrations in 2022? Why has the number of new apprentice registrations started going backwards?
If the Deputy likes, I will give figures for each year. At the end of 2020, the total number of apprenticeship registrations was 5,326. At the end of 2021, it was 8,607. At the end of 2022, it was 8,286. I can break that down further. Of the 8,286, 6,299 were craft apprentices and 1,987 were apprentices engaged in the various consortia apprenticeships. At the end of last year, the total apprentice population was 26,325. That number had grown since the previous year, when it was 24,212.
I will give the Deputy the backlog figures because they comprise a quite topical subject that we speak about a lot. At the end of 2020, the backlog was 8,453, of whom 5,227 were waiting more than six months. In 2021, there were 8,797 on the waiting list, with 5,607 waiting for more than six months. At the end of last year, there were 8,474 on the waiting list, with the number waiting for more than six months having dropped to 4,867. Inroads are, therefore, being made. There was a decrease of 13.2% on 2021 and of 6.9% on 2020.
Has the Minister of State projected when the backlog will be addressed? Has he a breakdown of the various phases within the figures, because there were particular problems?
I do not have them to hand.
It would be good if the Minister of State could give the committee an update on those figures, with the breakdown of the various stages. When will people no longer wait more than six months? I realise there will always be some backlog. As we go along, it is important to determine that we are making progress and to measure that progress against the additional inputs to try to reduce the backlog. This would allow us to see whether things are really working and whether changes need to be made.
New registrations jumped by 56% by comparison with 2020. There was a fall of 4% from 2021 to 2022.
2020 was at the height of Covid, so the figures would be contaminated by the Covid situation.
Yes.
It is, therefore, hard to compare the years in question to get an exact picture, but I would have thought that with the setting up of the new Department and the link to the CAO, there would have been a bigger increase in the number of apprenticeships. This needs to be examined to determine what else needs to be done, including by way of additional career guidance, which should be provided anyway. There should be sufficient investment in career guidance right across this island. Even from speaking to some of the young people in the North, I have concluded this. There is not a full appreciation of the return we would get from proper career guidance.
I have just been advised that, as part of the action plan, we are carrying out a spending review of demographic demand for apprenticeships this year. That will take place ahead of budget preparations for next year. The terms of the review are currently being discussed with the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform but ascertaining how we can make improvements is an ongoing job of work. It is not just about staying with the programme we have. We have to review it.
The education committee will investigate North–South student mobility. Apprenticeships need to be considered throughout right the island along with shared apprenticeships, North and South, to open up whatever opportunities we can. Some risks need to be taken with apprenticeships to embed a genuine change of culture and mindset in order that the opportunities that exist will be taken up. I welcome the review and hope the terms of reference are broad enough to capture exactly what is happening, not just the financial position.
There is also a bursary scheme worth €100,000. I will also send the committee members information on that.
If the Minister of State could, that would be great.
It seems from the figures he provided that 5,000 fewer students were enrolled in third level education in 2022. This is based on previous demographic trends. The figures are usually accurate. What does the Minister of State believe has caused the decline? Is it despite certain measures taken by the Government in the budget? Students considering third level last spring and early summer believed it was simply too expensive. Does he believe the cost of living has had an impact on the numbers? Is there any analysis being done on this?
We will get back to the Deputy on that. We recognise that the cost of living represents a pressure across every sector but the Student Universal Support Ireland, SUSI, review is ongoing. When that is completed, we will have a better handle on the matter. We have full employment and more people doing apprenticeships. We have made changes to the SUSI scheme. However, I would not be able to give the Deputy a holistic view on the exact reason for the fall in numbers.
On the flip side, we made extra places available in high-demand courses over recent years. The Higher Education Authority, HEA, has sought expressions of interest from our higher education institutions to put on new programmes for medicine, dentistry and nursing. There is a process.
I very much welcome that. The Minister of State mentioned expressions of interest. What is the position on veterinary? What are the terms of reference for it? There are a couple of aspects to how assessments are made by the panel. Are there panellists with appropriate, recent veterinary experience who can make the right decisions? I am genuinely concerned that when setting up another veterinary school, the qualifications that will come from it will serve the whole of the island, not just vets who are here. The Minister of State will know what I am talking about-----
Yes.
-----even geographically in terms of where he is situated himself. Could he explain the current position? I wrote to the Minister, Deputy Harris, about this seeking to discuss it specifically.
The HEA sought expressions of interest for dentistry, pharmacy, medicine, nursing and veterinary. The closing date for the expressions of interest was 18 November 2002. There was further engagement with the respondents, whereby queries were raised about their expressions of interest. They had to be responded to by 16 January. The HEA is running the process, which we will call a tender because there is a competition among the higher education institutions to win.
The Deputy asked specifically about veterinary. We have all been lobbied on it.
There is plenty of interest in it and, as I understand it, the format the HEA is using is that it has set up a panel to assess the expressions of interest or the bids that have been made, which include the chief veterinary officer from the Department of Agriculture, a nominee from the Veterinary Council, and, I think, two persons from the authority. Basically they will run the rule over each of the expressions of interest and will come forward with a recommendation to the authority, which will then make a recommendation to the Minister on that. That is a broad outline of the process. Some people raised queries as to why there is not an international input into the panel. I queried that and I was informed by HEA officials they had done that previously and that it would take longer to do that and go out and find people. They are happy that the people they have are competent enough, including themselves, to impartially vet or examine each of the expressions of interest and to give a recommendation.
We need to be careful here and I know the Minister of State has had much the same conversations as I have. We need to get this right and we need to get the right expertise and the people who have that along with current expertise in the field of veterinary. If we do not get this right we could end up in a situation that none of us want to be in. Even if it was a case where we have to take a bit longer, we need to ensure the capacity is there to deliver exactly what we want; not what we want just now but what we want to future-proof it for 20 years' time. It is crucial we do that. I want to speak to the Minister, Deputy Harris, separately about this as well. If we do not do this, there will be repercussions. I was delighted to see the expressions of interest because so many people, even from my own community, are forced to go abroad to train to be vets. We need the whole western seaboard service so that people can go to college to train to be a vet as near as possible to home but particularly, which we discussed previously, to work with large animals and all that. If we do not get this framework right in how we set it up and the capacity to set it up and make the right investment at the beginning, it will cost us an awful lot more, not only in monetary terms but otherwise, as we go along with this. I ask the Minister of State that we, as Opposition members, would have transparency and accountability around this and that we would work together to get it right to make sure it is done. We will only have one change at this. I cannot push home the point enough that we do not have any veterinary school in the north of the island and we need to be able to cater for the communities there as well. It is a great opportunity for North-South collaboration too.
I concur with the Deputy on that.
There is an appreciation of the urgency on our side. When the intention is to try, between dentistry, pharmacy, medicine, nursing and veterinary, to have these up and running in the 2024, 2025 or 2026 at the latest, there is a degree of urgency. Some 39 expressions of interest were received by the HEA across all five disciplines, of which 20 were proposals to deliver new courses and 19 to expand on existing courses.
That is good. It is great to see so many higher education institutions coming forward with it but getting the right fits for each discipline is hugely important.
I know. I agree. It is accepted by everyone that the veterinary community-----
I have to cut the Minister off now. I am going to call Deputy Jim O'Callaghan because there is a vote in the House. He said he would be very fast. Then we can get this over before we go for the vote.
I thank the Minister of State for coming before the committee and, like the rest of the committee members, I support the Revised Estimates. I welcome the €80 million being provided for evaluation, quality and inspection supports to students. I was going to ask the Minister of State about student accommodation issues and I know a lot is being done about that in University College Dublin. I will not ask him for an answer now considering the vote is imminent. I welcome the fact that so many small third level institutions are continuing to get funding from his Department. I refer to a couple of them in my constituency in particular. The Royal Irish Academy of Music is something we all want to support but I ask that maybe the Minister of State and the Minister, Deputy Harris, if either of them was available, would visit the Dublin Institute of Advanced Studies at some stage. It is a fantastic institute in my constituency. It has a school of Celtic studies, a school of cosmic physics and a school of theoretical physics. I think they would enjoy their visit there. The fact that it was founded by the founder of Fianna Fáil, Éamon de Valera, is another reason they would enjoy coming out there. It is an extraordinary location.
I thought the Deputy was going to say Michael Collins.
It was a place where many mathematicians, particularly those who being persecuted by the Nazis, came to Ireland in the late 1930s and early 1940s. They received sanctuary and brought their expertise here. I ask the Minister of State to come out for a visit and will finish now for the vote.
Is it okay if we ask the Minister to reply to the clerk to the committee?
Yes, we can finish now.
Okay. I thank the Minister of State, Deputy Collins, and his officials for the constructive engagement this evening.