Select Committee on Education, Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 8 Feb 2023

Vote 26 - Education (Revised)

Chairman

No apologies have been received. I ask members and officials to ensure that their mobile phones are switched off for the duration of the meeting because they interfere with the broadcasting equipment, even when in silent mode. This meeting has been convened to consider the Revised Estimates for Public Services 2023: Vote 26, Education, which was referred to this committee by Dáil Éireann.

I welcome the Minister for Education, Deputy Foley, and her officials. I thank them for the briefing document they provided prior to the meeting. I ask the Minister to make her opening statement, which will be of five minutes' duration. Afterwards, we will take questions from members.

Minister for Education (Deputy Norma Foley)

I thank the committee for giving me the opportunity to come before it to discuss the Revised Estimate for my Department. The Estimate sets out the approved allocations for the Department. This includes funding for all of the services it normally provides. Additional allocations to fund measures relating to Covid-19 and the education sector’s response to the Ukraine crisis are also included. A significant capital allocation is also included.

The Revised Estimate provides for a net allocation of €9.675 billion. This is a gross allocation of €10.025 billion, reduced by appropriations-in-aid of some €350 million. The gross allocation has increased by €743 million on the original 2022 gross expenditure allocation. The gross allocation includes €90 million of financial supports for measures relating to Covid and Ukraine. There is also a contingency reserve that is being held centrally by Government. This will be made available, as required, throughout the year. Our continued Covid response will be based on the latest public health advice available, and our response to the Ukrainian crisis will be based on the number of additional pupils entering and remaining in our education system.

Excluding the Covid- and Ukraine-related funding, the increased funding for 2023 is €790 million, or 8.6%, above that allocated in 2022. Of this increase, €435 million relates to increases in public sector pay and pension rates agreed as part of the Building Momentum negotiations. My Department spends more than €8 billion on pay and pensions. This represents 80% of the expenditure allocation. Almost 100,000 public servants and 46,000 public service pensioners are paid out of these funds. Other significant expenditure areas include capital infrastructure, school transport, capitation grants to schools, and grants to other organisations and agencies.

In budget 2023, I secured a significant allocation for primary, post-primary and special needs education for the 2023-24 school year. This allocation relates to important measures such as almost 2,200 new teachers and special needs assistants, the provision of free primary school books, funding for senior cycle reforms, and achieving the historically low 23:1 staffing schedule at primary level.

The introduction of a new scheme to provide free books signifies a new chapter in Irish primary education. This initiative will greatly reduce the burden on families and reflects the importance this Government places on education. It will benefit up to 540,000 students across every county.

The Government is further delivering on its commitment to reduce class sizes during 2023. For the third consecutive year, I have lowered the staffing schedule for primary schools, bringing it to a historic low of 23:1.

The Revised Estimates provide funding in 2023 to progress our plans for senior cycle reform which is rooted in student well-being and putting the student at the centre of the process.

The 2023 funding allocation makes the biggest ever commitment to students with special educational needs and their families. We are building on the progress already made on additional classes, teachers and supports. With an additional 686 teachers for special education, and almost 1,200 additional special needs assistants, SNAs, coming on stream during 2023; for the first time ever we will have over 19,000 teachers working in the area of special education and almost 20,400 special needs assistants, bringing us to a figure of 40,000 dedicated professionals in the area of special education. There is also additional investment being provided for the expansion of the National Council for Special Education to support schools and families.

I am proud to have secured these ground-breaking investments in our education system, furthering the work of recent years in reducing class sizes, reducing costs for families, tackling disadvantage and supporting the achievement of all our students.

I am also acutely conscious of the impact Covid has had on our most vulnerable students. To this end, the Revised Estimate contains an allocation of €45 million for the continuation of an enhanced summer programme along with a range of other measures. Significant funding has been provided to schools since 2020 also to help them address the challenges posed by Covid. The required supports will continue to be provided to schools during the year based on the latest public heath advice and additional allocations will be available for drawdown from funding set aside in a separate central reserve not currently allocated to Departments.

On Ukraine, there is additional ring-fenced funding of €45 million to meet the costs of the education sector’s response to the crisis in Ukraine. This provides for the cost of hiring additional teachers and other supports. There are now over 14,000 students from Ukraine enrolled in our schools and this number is continuing to increase. The funding in the Revised Estimate is intended to meet current expenditure costs for the remainder of this school year. Similar to Covid, there is a central reserve not currently allocated to Departments. Funding will be drawn down from this reserve as needed to continue supports beyond the 2022-23 school year, to deliver additional school accommodation places, and if the number of students enrolling in our schools continues to increase throughout 2023.

Under Project Ireland 2040, the education sector will receive a total of approximately €4.4 billion capital investment over the period 2021-25. This significant investment will deliver high-quality building projects, with a real focus on sustainability, for school communities across Ireland. Capital planning and budgeting is undertaken on a multi-annual basis. The allocation of €860 million for 2023 will facilitate the continued delivery of school building projects and other measures.

That is just a flavour of the issues that are reflected in the Revised Estimate. I hope I have been of assistance to the select committee. I are happy to address any queries members may have.

Chairman

I thank the Minister for her opening statement. The first member to contribute will be Deputy Ó Laoghaire. He will be followed by Deputy Nolan.

Deputy Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire

I thank the Minister for bringing forward the Revised Estimate. As in any year, there were elements of the budget that I was pleased with and others I was disappointed with. The issue of free school books is something that Sinn Féin has been speaking about for almost ten years now. The move in this regard is very welcome. It is vital that schools get information or a payment schedule for what is proposed as soon as possible. While the measures to reduce the pupil-teacher ratio did not quite go as far as we wished, the progress is welcome.

There are some specific points I want to raise. I do not need responses to them because there are a few other issues I also wish to raise. Schools have been in contact with me. They understand that the Covid cleaning grant is to be extended for term 2 and they are anxious to get a payment schedule for that. In addition, an issue that comes up annually is the physical posting of payslips to teachers and retired teachers. It is a significant cost that is scarcely justifiable in this day and age.

There is a fair bit in the revised Estimates about the National Council for Special Education and the provision of additional funding for that. Obviously, that is very welcome. It is an organisation that is quite thin on the ground in large parts of the country. There are vacancies for special education needs organisers, SENOs, that need to be dealt with. Time will tell the value of that additional resource.

One of the key areas in special education is the summer provision programme. The Department has sought to expand the programme in recent years. I put it to the Minister that the recent decisions that have been taken in the context of running teacher training courses over the summer could potentially disincentivise teachers from participating in the summer programme. This is a short-sighted approach that does not take into account the caring responsibilities that many teachers have, and the fact that they seek to balance those with training during the summer months. Not only will it affect goodwill, it also has the potential to have an impact with regard to the number of people who may participate in the summer programme. I have two more questions, but I ask the Minister to respond briefly before I ask them.

Deputy Norma Foley

Significant funding has been made available to schools in the respect of Covid. There will be no question but that such funding will be made available, subject to public health advice and as required.

As the Deputy is aware, we have put considerable resources into special education. In excess of €40 million has been made available to run the summer programme. The Deputy specifically referenced that. In the context of the teacher training online courses over the summer, there has been a meeting with the providers in relation to that matter. I have heard the concerns of providers. The decision has been taken to engage with them, and I will keep the Deputy briefed on that.

Deputy Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire

I am glad the Minister has an open mind on that matter. In the past week or two, she took a decision to remove funding from the National Parents Council Post Primary, NPCPP. I want to get a sense of the events leading up to that decision. When was the last time the Minister met with representatives from the NPCPP?

Deputy Norma Foley

The Deputy will be aware that I engage with all of the partners in education on a different occasions, including through the advisory committee. That would include the NPCPP as well. My last engagement with the organisation was probably in August time around the launch of the parent helpline for students. I did not engage with the organisation while there was an independent process taking place, which I think was right and proper. The governance review process should be independent of the Department and that was the case.

Deputy Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire

I have another question. I understand the Minister sought a review of the governance of the NPCPP. Is it the case that the decision the Minister took was on foot of the report that she received in respect of that review?

Deputy Norma Foley

No. The Deputy will be aware that there must be governance structures in place for any organisation that is in receipt of State funding. From time to time, there will be governance reviews. The NPCPP was informed of the requirement for a governance review. Unfortunately, it did not feel it was in a position to engage with the process. The review had to take place. The Deputy will be aware that in our schools we have whole-school evaluations and subject evaluations-----

Deputy Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire

I agree totally, in principle, that high governance standards have to be reached. The Minister requested that review. I am trying to establish whether she made her decision on foot of recommendations contained in that review.

Deputy Norma Foley

I am not clear on what review the Deputy is referring to.

Deputy Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire

I will ask the question again. The Minister requested a governance review.

Deputy Norma Foley

I did.

Deputy Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire

Is it because of the recommendations of that review that the Minister took the decision to remove funding?

Deputy Norma Foley

In the first instance, there must be oversight of governance within any organisation that is in receipt of State funding.

Deputy Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire

Yes, that is agreed.

Deputy Norma Foley

Having a review of that nature does not cast aspersions on any organisation. Since last May, there has been ongoing engagement with the NPCPP. The organisation did not feel it was in a position to engage with the review. After more than six months of its inability to engage - and it is important that it should engage - the decision was taken to withdraw the funding. I regret that this was the case, but obviously it is important that there is oversight of the running of any organisation. Governance must be a priority for any organisation. When there was a refusal-----

Deputy Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire

I agree with the Minister entirely.

Deputy Norma Foley

-----to engage with the governance review, there was no other option available.

Deputy Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire

It is important that the governance, whether it is of an organisation or the Department, is coherent and so on. What I am trying to establish is the chain of decisions that led to the Minister taking that decision. Was it recommended to the Minister by the governance review, which, whether the organisation engaged with it or not, did happen? Did the Minister-----

Deputy Norma Foley

That review-----

Deputy Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire

When did the Minister receive the report?

Deputy Norma Foley

The report of the review will be brought to me on the basis of the information that is in the public domain. There was an attitude of non-co-operation on the part of the NPCPP. Because of this non-co-operation with a fundamental requirement for a governance review, the decision was taken to withdraw the funding. That was the reason for it.

Deputy Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire

The Minister will receive the report.

Deputy Norma Foley

Yes.

Deputy Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire

So, she has not received the report.

Deputy Norma Foley

No.

Deputy Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire

Thank you, Chair.

Chairman

The Deputy has another two minutes.

Deputy Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire

I was just seeking to establish that. I would have thought that any decision that would have been taken, whether there was engagement or not, would have been informed by the review. I understand that some of the reasons for engagement or non-engagement are disputed. I absolutely agree that high standards have to be reached, but I would have imagined that if a review had been undertaken and indeed completed, it would inform decisions in relation to future funding.

Deputy Norma Foley

For clarity, the draft report was shared with the NPCPP. It is aware of the draft report and has had of it. However, at no point was the organisation prepared to engage with the governance review. There must be a willingness on the part of any organisation that is in receipt of State funding to engage with a governance review.

Deputy Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire

Did the Minister receive this draft report?

Deputy Norma Foley

No, I will receive the completed report in due course. It will be on the basis of information that is in the public domain as there was a refusal to engage with the process by the NPCPP.

Deputy Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire

I suppose it is clear that the Minister has not seen the report. So the decision was taken exclusively on the basis of-----

Deputy Norma Foley

Non-co-operation and engagement.

Deputy Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire

-----non-co-operation. Do I have time for a final question?

Chairman

Yes.

Deputy Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire

There have been ongoing discussions and reviews in respect of school transport for some time. The decision that was taken to make school transport free was welcome, albeit it could have been organised in a different way, perhaps by continuing to give preference to those who applied in time. In any event, the time for has passed.

The decision to make school transport free for this academic year was a relief to many families. In the long term, it is necessary that the Department have a vision for delivering free school transport on a permanent basis. That cannot be done overnight, but is the Department discussing the matter with the Department of Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform? It is a no-brainer in terms of emissions, traffic and the cost to all involved. It makes perfect sense that everyone who wants a place on a bus should be able to get one. Are the two Departments meeting at this early stage to discuss next year's budget and the potential of extending school transport on a free basis or reducing its cost level gradually over the course of a number of years?

Deputy Norma Foley

As the Deputy is aware, there is a review of the entire school transport system. Last year, there was a 25% increase in the number of students availing of the system, including a 26% increase in terms of special education. The root-and-branch review includes everything from eligibility to cost. The Department of Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform is part of that review group, as it were, and the review has involved consultation with the widest possible remit, including providers, families that avail of the service and, more importantly, those who do not avail of it. It will inform how we proceed. We are looking to complete the report in a short while.

Chairman

Next will be Deputies Nolan, Ó Ríordáin and Conway-Walsh.

Deputy Carol Nolan

I thank the Minister for her briefing on the various issues. I welcome that class sizes are to be reduced again. Speaking as a former teacher, you cannot teach effectively and meet children's needs and the various abilities found in a classroom when it is a crowded. As such, the reduction is welcome. I also welcome the free schoolbooks initiative. It is a great initiative and one that I called for previously. I wholeheartedly welcome the capital investment in school buildings of €4.4 billion.

Those were the positives. Now, I wish to ask about reinstating the educational disadvantage committee. It was a fantastic committee through whose great work DEIS was initiated. Has there been any discussion of reinstating it? It advised on policy, did fantastic work and was good value for money.

I understand that €860 million in capital investment is available for this year. That is welcome, but I am concerned about St. Brendan's Community School in my constituency. It has DEIS status. I have mentioned how glazing work was to be done at the school three years ago. The school received a commitment that it would be done under the summer works scheme last year. The school has a serious problem. Every time it rains, it causes a hazard because of, for example, wet floors. The school community is at the end of its tether with the issue. I would warmly welcome any assistance the Minister could give in trying to resolve the problem.

The school was also approved for an autism spectrum disorder, ASD, unit four years ago, yet no progress has been made. There is considerable demand for places in ASD units. We spoke about this issue to representatives from the Department who appeared before the committee last week. The school needs assistance with both matters. I have emailed the details. I would be grateful for the Minister's assistance.

Deputy Ó Laoghaire referenced school transport. I understand that a review is taking place. It is welcome. There have been problems with the scheme every year. It is something that I have raised with every Minister for Education since entering the Dáil. Every year, Deputies are guaranteed to receive representations about problems. The nearest school rule causes many problems for communities every year. When will the review be published and is it examining the nearest school rule? Will it make some provision in that regard or remove the rule altogether?

Deputy Norma Foley

The Deputy is a great supporter of DEIS and what it can mean for a school. She is correct, in that this past year has, at a cost of €32 million, seen the single largest expansion of DEIS in recent years. I am conscious that not all children at risk of educational disadvantage attend DEIS schools. The body of work we are engaged in is considering what steps we can take in respect of DEIS and whether we could pursue a progression of measures without reaching full DEIS status. The Haase and Pratschke, HP, deprivation index is our guide in how we evaluate schools. When the 2022 census data become available to us, the index will be updated. I understand they will be available in quarter 3. That updated information will determine the next stage of DEIS, for example, how we might progress the steps within DEIS or outside of DEIS.

It is my understanding that the educational disadvantage committee was suspended more than ten years ago. A significant body of work on DEIS projects and support for children and young people at risk of educational disadvantage is ongoing within the Department. As a consequence of the committee's suspension ten years ago, new structures were put in place in the Department. They have delivered well, and continue to do so, in terms of educational disadvantage. That said, I am open to considering everything as we examine the census data in quarter 3.

On the two issues affecting St. Brendan's Community School, the Deputy might give me the details. I will ensure they are followed up for her.

There are three phases to the school transport review. The first two have been completed and work on the third is under way. It is my expectation that we will complete it in the next short while. The review will inform how we address issues around school transport. As I told Deputy Ó Laoghaire, a cross-departmental approach is being taken. Everything from climate change and sustainability to extending access to a greater number of students, distance and cost will be covered and the review will inform the school transport system in future.

Deputy Carol Nolan

Is the nearest school rule being examined?

Deputy Norma Foley

Yes. Everything is being examined in terms of eligibility. Traditionally, school transport was to the nearest school. The Deputy will be aware that I introduced a temporary alleviation measure at post-primary level, which meant that schools were eligible for transport to their nearest or second nearest school. All of this is being examined as part of the review.

Deputy Carol Nolan

I thank the Minister.

Deputy Aodhán Ó Ríordáin

I thank the Minister for reaching out to our party after the loss of Niamh Bhreathnach, a former Minister for Education. We appreciated the Minister's condolences and kind comments to our party and to her family. Niamh was associated with the original Breaking the Cycle scheme, so I will initially speak about DEIS.

As the Minister outlined, there has been an investment and approximately 25% of all schools now fall under the DEIS programme. I appeal to her about possibly having an extra stratum of DEIS, such as a DEIS plus, for acutely disadvantaged schools that may need to be given extra priority. I will leave that remark there, though, particularly as the Minister referred to the ongoing review of DEIS.

The Minister's comments on class sizes are welcome. I commend her on reducing class sizes within DEIS schools as well.

There is a different staffing schedule for DEIS and non-DEIS schools but the Department has done both simultaneously, so that is welcome.

As was mentioned, the free school books scheme is due to be rolled out in September. It is limited to primary schools and I can appreciate that because a second level scheme would be much more complex. However, principals are beginning to ask when they will get information on it, how it will be operational, if it is an opt-in and opt-out scenario, and if there will be a mandate of every school. There have been school book rental schemes where not every school took them up. I want to get some more clarity on the proposal because we do not want a situation where some schools just do not opt in and parents who may really be in need of this scheme are not able to avail of it.

On school transport, will we have the same scheme as last year for next September? There are still issues and my colleague in Cork, Peter Horgan, says that, in Mount Oval in Cork, 50 children are still off the bus. I want to get clarity on that.

School places in second level education are becoming a real issue. Does the Minister anticipate a scenario where the Department may have to provide more school places in particular pinch points in the commuter belt around Dublin or in Dublin itself for schools that are massively oversubscribed? The Minister knows my position on the 25% of school places that can be set aside for children or grandchildren of past pupils, and we would seek her support for the fast-tracking of that Bill. That being said, is the Department looking at those pinch points?

On counselling services, more funding will be needed for the school completion programme counselling services. What is the Minister’s view on that? Has she identified schools that will be involved in the €5 million mental health counselling programme that is due to start in September 2023?

I have two last points and I appreciate that I am throwing a lot at the Minister. I refer to the results date for the 2023 leaving certificate. It was indicated last year that we would have similar problems around the resourcing of the marking of exams and the timing of those results in 2023. Does the Minister have a sense of when that might be or how late it would be?

My last point is on the reconfiguration of schools, and I have an issue in Raheny in my constituency. I would ask the Department to take more ownership of that process. If the roll-out of the review or consultation in Raheny is anything to go by, none of these processes will be successful. It led to quite a bit of chaos, a lot of division and not much light out of it at the end. I just wanted to make that point. I would appreciate it if the Minister would reflect on the points I have made.

Deputy Norma Foley

I would also like to take this opportunity to reference the formidable Niamh Bhreathnach and I extend my sincere sympathy to her family. She was a trailblazer in education, as the Deputy has referenced. She was a phenomenal woman with extraordinary vision for education, particularly, as the Deputy has referenced, in the area of educational disadvantage. That included everything from the leaving certificate applied programme to transition year. It was an enormously wide scope and her background in education was always manifest. Her legacy speaks for itself and we are conscious in this committee of that enormous contribution. We extend sympathy to the Labour Party most especially and to her family.

On the issues the Deputy has raised, there has been a significant achievement in the availability of the free school books programme. We have engaged at a national level with booksellers, publishers and organisations like St. Vincent de Paul and Barnardos on the roll-out of the programme. I am conscious that the information on it needs to reach the schools at the earliest possible point and we are moving towards them having that information in advance of the Easter holidays. We are looking at ensuring schools retain the autonomy they currently have for the purchase of books. In other words, many schools have excellent relationships with local book providers and bookshops and they will retain the autonomy to continue that relationship.

I am conscious as well that this particular €50 million investment will be for the benefit of all students, which the Deputy specifically asked about. That is 540,000 pupils in 3,240 schools, and it is to be available to all students and for the benefit of all schools. It is important to say as well that we have had considerable learning from the pilot that was run in more than 100 of our schools, and equally so with the book rental scheme, which over 96% of our primary schools engaged in. The schools already have considerable experience there and they are proactively disposed to supporting students. It is for the benefit of all students and the detail will be with the schools, following the consultation with everybody involved, by the Easter holidays.

On school transport, I want to acknowledge that, as part of the cost-of-living measures, there was a waiving of fees that resulted in a 25% increase in the number of young people taking up places on school buses, and as an aside there was a 26% increase in special education school transport last year. The review, as I have already referenced to Deputy Nolan, is nearing completion. It is looking at all aspects of eligibility and at the opportunity for the maximum number of young people to avail of the school transport scheme. It is my expectation this will be completed in the coming weeks.

On the results date, I am conscious of the additional demands that have been placed on the State Examinations Commission, SEC, with our correct decision to have a second sitting of the leaving certificate. Equally so, the commitment we gave on the grade profile of previous years was another considerable additional ask being placed on the SEC. For that reason, having engaged with the SEC, its best estimate was the date that was achieved last year. I continue to engage with it and it is reviewing last year's structures, especially the availability of correctors, who are essential to the process. It has done a considerable body of work in that regard. We are recruiting for the oral examinations and all of that and that is going quite well. The SEC will be doing all it can to ensure the results, while maintaining the integrity of the exam, will be issued as early as possible. At this point it is not possible for it to give the date. It is a matter for the SEC but I have engaged directly with it on that.

On the counselling in primary schools, as the Deputy is aware that is a €5 million investment. The-----

Deputy Aodhán Ó Ríordáin

The identification of the schools.

Deputy Norma Foley

We are completing the model that will be used. That work is ongoing, it will be completed in the coming weeks and then direct contact will be made with the schools. I would like to see the widest experience of schools in terms of the size of schools, the type of schools and all of that being part of the pilot. There will be great learnings from this and I would hope that, going forward, we will be in a position to expand it even more.

Deputy Aodhán Ó Ríordáin

On the point of second level school places, I do not need a comment on the reconfiguration of schools. I am just happy for the Minister to have heard what I have said.

Deputy Norma Foley

I will briefly say something about the reconfiguration. I know I am running out of time but I want to say that it is a pilot, it has worked well in some areas and it has been more demanding and challenging in other areas, some of which the Deputy has referenced. That is notwithstanding that we have seen successes come out of it as well, and it was my pleasure to be in Nenagh recently, for example, where we could see proof of the work. Notwithstanding that, great learnings will come out of this pilot and that will inform how we move forward. I appreciate it has been more challenging in some areas than in others.

Deputy Aodhán Ó Ríordáin

There is a process ongoing in Raheny, so we will let that go.

Deputy Norma Foley

I understand that and it is important that there will be a process because I fundamentally believe everybody should be entitled to be engaged in this, including parents, students, local communities, potential parents, schools and staff. Everybody needs to be part of the process. It should not be imposed as that can bring challenges. It is the right way to go and we will learn from the process.

On school places, I acknowledge that the planning and building unit has significant work to do. We have a geographic information system and we also have direct engagement with local authorities and patrons. We are engaging on an ongoing basis to pre-empt where there will be challenges going forward. We will continue to do that and the objective is to ensure that, where places are required, the appropriate accommodation will be put in place.

Deputy Rose Conway-Walsh

It is really concerning if the leaving certificate results are not going to be out until September again. As the Minister knows, this causes all kinds of problems, particularly for students trying to make choices and get accommodation. These are additional pressure students do not need to bear. I have spoken to many teachers who mark papers and asked them why they would not continue to do this job given the additional payments and everything else. They said the way papers are marked, sent back, marked again and sent back is a bureaucratic nightmare that must not only be looked into but also sorted out so there will be enough markers and it will be attractive enough for markers and teachers to do the job. They stated that what is happening is not good for anyone and represents just another pressure. I ask that every effort be made to bring the date forward to the middle of August. Even a couple of weeks at that time make a big difference to young people, who are already under severe pressure. That is all I will say about that.

On school transport, the Minister did not mention the F-word, the word I was looking for – "flexibility". I urge her, even at this stage, to do so. When will the report be published after completion? When will its recommendations be implemented? Can we say there will be no recommendations implemented this year and that they will be implemented the following year?

Under subhead A9, funding towards school transport has been reduced by €55.5 million, which is 20%. The Department has indicated its target is for an increase in the number of students using the transport, from 122,217 in 2022 to 125,220 in 2023. If the target is to increase the number of students, why has the funding been reduced? The main thing we need in school transport is flexibility to meet the needs of the children and families who desperately need it, especially in rural Ireland.

I raised with the Department the previous day the issue of capital funding for schools whose numbers are not increasing. I gave the example of a school in Swinford. It has 60 students but does not have a hallway or very basic facilities. What are we doing to meet the needs of such schools? There is a school in Bangor Erris that needs the tarmac done because it has a wheelchair user, and the school in Sáile, Achill, has no outside shelter. These are basic needs. While I completely understand that decisions are population driven, children attending schools such those mentioned deserve to be treated in the same way as other children, particularly in respect of meeting their basic needs, whether these are a shelter, a place outside to play or a hallway. What is the policy on this? The summer works scheme does not cover things like these. It is just not sufficient to do so.

Deputy Norma Foley

I thank the Deputy. It has been broadly agreed that it is right and proper, once the leaving certificate exams have concluded in June, to have a second sitting of them going into July. That is only fair. I say that as someone who has spent a lot of time in the classroom. Every young person should get the maximum opportunity. If by some misfortune a student has an illness – it might have been Covid in the past year or so – he or she should have another opportunity to do the leaving certificate examinations. That is fair. If we believe it is fair, we must acknowledge the impact on the State Examinations Commission in respect of its oversight of the correcting of the exams. That is a given. I have met representatives of the commission on this on several occasions. Specific issues arose in respect of attracting a sufficient number of correctors, as identified by the Deputy. Significant work is being done again this year to make it more attractive. The Deputy referred to work being corrected and sent back for correction again. This has almost stopped, although not entirely, because the vast majority of correction is now online. This has streamlined the system and made it much more attractive for teachers to correct work in the first instance. Every year, there has been an incremental improvement. Significantly, as referred to by the Deputy, there have been financial improvements benefiting staff. That will be the case again this year.

The State Examinations Commission has not adjudicated at this point on when the results will be available. We understand why. It will not adjudicate until the whole body of work has been completed. The commission and I are clear that we need to have the earliest possible date, notwithstanding the challenges.

On the school transport system, the Deputy referred to having flexibility at the centre. That is the impetus for the entire review. Like the Deputy, I come from a rural constituency. I know the value of school transport and realise it is of particular interest in constituencies like that of the Deputy. The school transport review will cover flexibility, examining everything from the distance criteria to eligibility and cost. All of these aspects are informing the review. I hope the review will be completed in the next short while. When it is, it will have to be signed off by the Government, after which it will be published. There is an element of time involved in this. It must be allowed to proceed. I acknowledge there has been considerable engagement by the wider public on the review. We are completing the work as quickly as possible but it will demand engagement with the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform. Reference was made to the fact – I have already clarified this point – that representatives of that Department are part of an interdepartmental committee on the school transport review.

I will address the specific cases the Deputy raised concerning various parts of her constituency. If there is an access issue for any child or young person with additional needs, whether it concerns tarmac or another matter, she might give me the details. With regard to any question of access for a child with additional needs, the cost will be met by my Department. The Deputy might just give me the details.

Where other issues that might arise within a school are concerned, there is the summer works scheme, as referred to by the Deputy, and the emergency works scheme. There are other grants made available to schools. If there is a specific need that cannot be met by a school, that school should engage directly with the Department on it. The Deputy stated the schools she mentioned are small, but the size does not matter. It is important that any access issue faced by a child with additional needs be identified and rectified. There is a place in the education system for small schools too. I can say that as somebody who comes from a rural constituency.

Deputy Pádraig O'Sullivan

I will pick up where the Minister left off on school transport. I realise the result of the review is imminent. On flexibility, as raised by Deputy Conway-Walsh, the Minister will be aware of the specific circumstances of Watergrasshill, a village in the hinterland of the town of Fermoy. The Minister's head is probably wrecked by my flagging these peculiar circumstances. Historically and traditionally, students from Watergrasshill went to Fermoy. Schools were subsequently built in Carrignavar and Glanmire, making the school in Fermoy the third nearest, but the vast majority of students still travel to Fermoy. These students find themselves outside the remit of the scheme. Regardless of whether the full review is carried out on time in respect of these circumstances, I believe a case can be made for the 50 students who do not qualify. I hope there will be flexibility or a proviso in the upcoming review to cover circumstances where there is a demonstrable requirement for a bus.

The second issue, which I mentioned last week when the buildings forward planning unit was before the committee, is oversight of projects that are already sanctioned. Autism spectrum disorder, ASD, classes and extensions of various kinds might be sanctioned and taking a number of years to work their way through planning, tendering and so on, but a few of them just sit there, as it were. I have a question about the oversight of those projects. Are they being constantly kept under review to ensure we are churning them out? To be fair, the Minister has announced one of the largest infrastructure programmes I can recall. I, like the Minister, taught in a school for long enough. The number of buildings and extensions going on is phenomenal. It is just a question of who is continuing to keep those under review.

The third issue is the special school site in Glanmire. I raised it with the building unit representatives last week. Their answer was that the issue was still with the legals, so to speak. Cork City Council is telling me it is finished with the issue and it has been disposed of. I wish to keep it on the agenda. I have talked to many stakeholders, as has the Minister, in Cork and the wider area, and many of them have concerns we will face the same situation we did almost two years ago with the refurbishment of the new school in Carrigaline. None of us wish to go back to the kind of situation where we have a large number of children who may have nowhere to go. I wish to see the site in Glanmire progress as quickly as possible.

The last issue I wish to flag is a fairly contentious issue that arose in my constituency a number of months ago with regard to school amalgamation. I tried to do a fair bit of research into it at the time. It seemed that many of the guidelines around the amalgamation process of schools was outdated. I was reading documents going back to 2006. I may be wrong and I may have missed some very obvious documentation that is much more current. The Minister might let me know. We need to keep the issue under review given the number of amalgamations that are likely to happen going forward. I thank the Minister for her time.

Deputy Norma Foley

It was remiss of me not to refer to Deputy Conway-Walsh's comment that there was a reduction in school transport funding. I wish to clarify that; I should have done so. There is actually a 5% increase in funding for school transport. The reduction is a reference to the fact that, during Covid, there was 50% occupancy. Thus there was greater expenditure. There is no reduction in the money. In fact, there is a slight increase in the money going into school transport. I should have said that.

I acknowledge Deputy O'Sullivan's absolute commitment to Watergrasshill. It is a reflection of the need for the school transport review. I know he has a particular view on a demand-led system, but for many reasons we are looking at the review of accessibility, eligibility and opportunities for the maximum number of students to attend the school of their choosing. The Deputy will be aware I introduced the temporary alleviation measure where students who chose to go to their second school would be covered. The Deputy is referencing a third-nearest school-----

Deputy Pádraig O'Sullivan

There will also be Watergrasshill-----

Deputy Norma Foley

There will always be another one beyond it as well. I understand that. Eligibility, cost and the whole lot are part of the school transport review. They are central to it. The work is moving apace and the work will be imminent.

I refer to ASD and oversight and I know the planning and building unit was part of the discussion at the committee in the past week. We have a very significant and proactive planning and building unit with a very strong pipeline of projects. We have a significant capital investment of more than €860 million, with 180 projects delivered last year and between 150 and 200 to be delivered this year. More than 1,000 different projects are at various stages of development within the Department. I know the Deputy has an interest in special education. In the past year, we have considerably enhanced the number of special classes being made available. More than 2,500 are in the system and, by 2023, there will be close to 3,000 available. It is a priority for the Department. If the Deputy wishes to raise any specific cases, the planning and building unit will take them in hand.

There is agreement in principle for Glanmire. It has enormous potential. The Department is determined to progress it. I am very conscious of that. The Deputy has raised the issue of Glanmire time and again with us. We are working through the potential and possibility for that site and the agreement in principle.

The Deputy is quite correct that the amalgamations in that the proposal obviously must come from the patrons. We have seen a number of them going forward. The first hurdle is for the patrons to be in agreement with any form of amalgamation and then it comes to the Department. If there are any specific issues with regard to anyone in particular, I am very happy for us to take a look at them.

Deputy Cathal Crowe

I was following the meeting from the office and I have read the Minister's opening statement. At the outset, it is very obvious on the ground that a considerable amount of building work is going on. Projects that were stuck in the doldrums are starting to see the light of day. One project I pass quite often in County Clare is the amalgamated schools project in Ennistymon, which was ten or 15 years in the pipeline. Many would have said it was a pipe dream, but it is happening and it is very much appreciated. There is an unprecedented movement of capital building works and it is very noticeable on the ground.

Is there any further detail of where the €5 million in-school counselling pilot scheme is at?

Deputy Norma Foley

As the Deputy is aware, it is a €5 million scheme on a pilot basis. A considerable body of work is being done within the Department and with experts on the model that will be used for it and which will best meet the needs of schools and be most appropriate to the student body with which we are dealing, especially the younger cohort of students. It is our expectation that work will be completed in the next few weeks. The fuller detail will then be made available with regard to the schools that might choose to be part of the pilot. I referenced earlier to Deputy Ó Ríordáin that it is my absolute determination and expectation that we will have the widest sample of schools with regard to types and sizes of schools to get a very broad cross-section of the types of schools. It is also my hope and expectation there will be even greater learning from this pilot. I look forward to a full roll-out going forward. This is a landmark move. We have not had opportunities like this at primary level to date. It will be a benchmark for us going forward. The Deputy has raised this issue in particular with me. He was very keen we would find the resources and funding for it. He has a particular interest in the area. We will promote this within our schools and the final information will be available in the coming weeks.

Deputy Cathal Crowe

Over the years, when schools were required to lead an initiative, relationships and sexuality education, RSE, being one, decisions would have been taken to get a cohort of teachers through a body of in-service and train them up. I am RSE trained and I did science, technology, engineering and mathematics, STEM, training at another time. When the Department rightly sees a considerable initiative that needs to be led, it often uses the in-house talent pool. There would be merit in looking at doing something such as that with teachers and offering them the opportunity to upskill in-house, especially those who graduate with educational psychology to teach at primary level. The psychology element of the degree is not used that often in the day-to-day school context. Maybe there is a way of building on what they have spent learning for four years in St. Patrick's College or Mary Immaculate College and augmenting and refining it in order that there can be an in-house capacity.

I will next ask about the physical education Ministry that the Minister of State, Deputy Byrne, has taken up. I know he is not here and it is all under the patronage of the Department. I would love to see a strategy on physical literacy because, when I was teaching, if a child was struggling with literacy or numeracy, we would undergo diagnostic tests and make interventions straight away.

Even where a child was not diagnosed with dyscalculia or dyslexia, there still would be interventions to support that child and try to get him or her on the right track. The same has not been true for decades when it comes to physical literacy. Children's developmental milestones are benchmarked when they are very young by way of developmental checkups at their local GP practice before they enter the school system. It is only when there is a definitive diagnosis of dyspraxia that a proper intervention plan will be provided for a child. There are many other things to consider. The fundamental movements of catching, kicking, throwing, rolling and squatting are all important in sport but also in everyday life and they stand to people as they grow older. I would love to see the Minister and the Minister of State, Deputy Byrne, lead an initiative on this to ensure there are safety nets for children with physical literacy needs. Those types of needs were not met in years gone by.

Deputy Norma Foley

On the point about staff upskilling and so on, it is a great richness of the Irish education system that we have so many staff who, once qualified, are prepared to continue to upskill and train in a variety of different fields. The Deputy mentioned the RSE programme as one example. To be clear, the counselling provision will be part of the wider well-being aspect in schools and the professional development service for teachers, PDST, will be rolling out continuing professional development, CPD, training to all schools in the area of well-being. It will not just be done in the schools that are specifically part of a pilot. The intention is that there will be an emphasis on wider well-being as well.

The Deputy is right that we are very fortunate to have the Minister of State, Deputy Byrne, join us in the Department. It is an excellent fit given his responsibility for sport in his other Department. On the education side, he will have a specific responsibility around physical activity in schools. He is very enthused about looking at how we can encourage a greater level of activity among pupils. Tremendous work is being done in schools on physical activity, including through the promotion of the active school flag initiative, the Slí na Sláinte programme and so on.

Regarding physical literacy, there is an opportunity as we move forward to support young people who might have greater challenges than others in this respect. With physical literacy, it is about the continuum rather than a particular stage. The emphasis in the Department has always been on a continuum of achievement in terms of physical literacy. We certainly will work carefully to ensure all issues around promoting physical activity and enhancing the ability of students in regard to physical literacy are improved and enhanced into the future. I appreciate the Deputy's specific interest in this issue.

Deputy Cathal Crowe

I am not sure whether I have used all my time.

Chairman

The Deputy has a minute and a half remaining.

Deputy Cathal Crowe

I have a final question for the Minister. We spoke recently to officials from the Department's building unit. There are many fabulous new-build projects under way. However, there are also many existing schools that have needs, particularly in terms of drop-off zones, car parking and school hallaí. They are typically the three elephants in the room that are rarely addressed. Schools get fabulous add-on rooms, special education rooms, storage rooms and so on but, far too often, the ancillary provision is forgotten. Could something be done on that front? Perhaps a circular could be sent to local authorities and there might be engagement with them on the issue. When a school has a proper drop-off zone at the front, it makes a massive difference. I do not know whether there is a strategy for drop-off zones, parking facilities and school halls.

Deputy Norma Foley

I want to be careful not to cross into the remit of local authorities. I am aware from my own experience that there can be very positive and proactive engagement between local authorities and local schools in terms of improving access, particularly if the school is located on a busy road or whatever the case might be. That would be a matter for the local authority.

In terms of provision for hallaí and so on, this is an area in which we are delighted to have the opportunity to work with the Minister of State, Deputy Byrne, who has responsibility for sport in the Department of Tourism, Culture, Arts, Gaeltacht, Sport and Media. There is an opportunity for facilities in schools to be supported by that Department through provision of sports capital funding, for example, which will ultimately also benefit communities. This is an area the Minister of State and I are very keen to progress. He will be advocating that sort of cross-community support between the local community and the school in advancing additional provision, whether it be a school hall, a sporting facility or otherwise. That will very much build on the work of his predecessor in the Department, the Minister of State, Deputy Chambers, in regard to sports capital funding. It is an area that will be addressed very differently by the new Minister of State, Deputy Byrne, in co-operation between his education and sport remits into the future.

Deputy Cathal Crowe

I thank the Minister.

Chairman

I have a few questions for the Minister. I have no doubt she is aware of the opinions expressed by the President, Michael D. Higgins, on the abolition of homework. What is her view on that?

Deputy Norma Foley

The first point to make is that I respect the view of the President. It is very important that he should have the opportunity to make his own observations. I will not comment on those observations specifically. In general, it is a matter for the boards of management of schools to devise their homework policy. From my own experience, in the vast majority of schools, homework begins in the school, with students possibly being invited to complete the work at home. There is a place for that because it is the one instance in which students have an opportunity for independent learning and to test whether they fully understand what they were taught in school on a given day. If they are not clear and they do not understand, they can ask for it to be explained in school the next day. I want to be clear that the opportunity to develop and devise a homework policy rests entirely with the schools themselves.

Chairman

This week is well-being week, with a huge number of initiatives being rolled out in primary schools across the country. Will the Minister liaise with the inspectorate and the National Council for Curriculum and Assessment, NCCA, on the homework issue, which puts huge pressure on parents? Most schools now give homework for the week on a Monday, with pupils not having to return it until Thursday. There probably is less stress if the work can be spread out over the week. However, there is significant strain and pressure on parents when teachers give a lot of homework to primary school children, with the expectation to have it returned the next day.

Regarding social media, I am sure the Minister and her officials have read the joint committee's report on school bullying and its impact on mental health. What progress has been made on implementing any of the recommendations in that report? Are there ongoing cross-consultations between officials in the Minister's Department and those in other Departments regarding the dangers of social media, in the context of the Online Safety and Media Regulation Bill 2022, which we all want to see enacted as soon as possible? Are there interdepartmental solutions being worked on urgently in that regard?

Deputy Norma Foley

I acknowledge the excellent work being done by the Chairman and the committee. He will be aware that the Department recently launched the Cineáltas plan - "cineáltas" meaning "kindness" - which is the anti-bullying framework for schools. It recognises that every child and young person has a right to feel safe and valued within his or her school environment. There must be zero tolerance of bullying in any part of society and most especially within our schools. Regarding online safety, the Chairman will be aware of the excellent work done by Webwise and that the Department has benefited hugely from the work of the anti-bullying centre in Dublin City University, DCU. As part of the Cineáltas initiative, the FUSE programme, which is already in many schools, will be rolled out to all schools, which will help to ensure students have the appropriate skills, knowledge and know-how to deal with bullying.

On the wider incidence of bullying, there will be a national database for the first time ever. It will obviously be anonymised but it will contain details of the types of incidents of bullying. The information provided by our schools will inform the Department of the issues most impacting our schools. At present our inspectorate, which has oversight of the measures being implemented in our schools, has an opportunity to share best practice. Best practice in one school is shared with other schools. A very proactive and positive approach is taken in this regard by the Department.

Chairman

Okay. I want to go back to the NPCPP. I know it was made aware by the Department on 1 December 2022 that funding was being withdrawn. Who made the recommendation to the Minister to withdraw its funding?

Deputy Norma Foley

I want to be clear in what I say. There is an obligation on any organisation that receives State funding to make itself available, without any aspersions being cast, for any type of review that might be necessary so that we are clear on governance structures. Officials from the Department engaged on an ongoing basis with the NPCPP. It was offered every opportunity to engage in this review process. At no point over more than six months was that forthcoming. It was not possible to continue to provide the financial supports if the organisation was not in a position to co-operate with a necessary review that happens in various organisations at various times. This review was not in any way impinging on the reputation of the organisation. The Department is obliged to have a governance eye over what is happening. As a consequence of the non-engagement with the officials and the Department, it was not possible for the funding to move forward.

Chairman

Did an official from the Department make a recommendation to the Minister to withdraw funding? I would like a yes-no answer.

Deputy Norma Foley

It was a consequence of discussion and engagement between me and officials in the Department.

Chairman

I know that the Minister has never met the NPCPP in an official capacity. She might have met them at functions, in a by-the-way fashion.

Deputy Norma Foley

That is not correct.

Chairman

Will the Minister let me finish? I am only relaying the information I have. Is she saying it is totally incorrect that she met the president and other officials from the NPCPP in an official capacity at a one-to-one meeting?

Deputy Norma Foley

I have met with all the partners in education at various points throughout the past couple of years, including the NPCPP, particularly as part of its work with the advisory committee.

Chairman

We will leave the advisory council. I am asking-----

Deputy Norma Foley

I do not have a list available of the times I met with anybody, either individually or collectively. I can revert to the committee in that respect. However, I have certainly engaged and met with the president on a number of occasions, most especially with the advisory committee because that is the correct engagement mechanism. In relation to this issue, specifically, it would not have been appropriate for me to engage with it as the review was being conducted independently of me.

Chairman

Okay. My understanding from the organisation is that the Minister has never met it in an official capacity. She might have met it at advisory group meetings or at different functions, but she has never met it officially. I am passing on what I have been told. It would be very unfortunate if the Minister did not meet the organisation. Maybe she can come back to clarify that point through the clerk to the committee. Keeping to the same issue, I understand that the Minister said to Deputy Ó Laoghaire today that a draft of the review has been published.

Deputy Norma Foley

No, I did not say it was published.

Chairman

It has been shared with the organisation, but the Minister has not seen that draft report.

Deputy Norma Foley

No.

Chairman

I find it bizarre that such an important organisation, which represents secondary schools across the island of Ireland, would have its funding withdrawn by the Minister without the final publication of the review. Who will take up the slack? What organisation will represent secondary schools?

Deputy Norma Foley

Again, I want to be very clear. I am surprised the Chair would not share the view that it is important for any organisation receiving any element of State funding to make itself available to co-operate with a review in terms of governance. In this case, it had been offered an opportunity to do that over six to seven months but it refused point blank to engage to do so. This meant there was cause for concern in terms of the governance of the organisation and the funding made available. Therefore, it is not appropriate for additional funding to be made available. On the issue of funding, an opportunity was made available to the NPCPP for any outstanding debts that might have been incurred. That was covered by the Department. Secondly, on the question of who will speak or advocate on behalf of the parents, the representative of primary school parents will take over that role. That is strictly on a short-term, interim basis.

Chairman

I find it absolutely bizarre that a group of parents from a primary school organisation will now advocate for secondary schools. The Minister knows the difference between primary and secondary education, and the different obstacles and challenges they face daily. I understand that the NPCPP had governance issues. However, I understand that those issues have been overcome and that officials in the Minister's Department are well aware of this. It seems absolutely short-sighted to withdraw all funding at this juncture and to ask another body to commence the same work. During Covid, the secondary schools organisation undertook some important work. It provided a helpline and worked very closely with officials in the Department. I think this is very short-sighted, from the Minister's point of view and from a departmental point of view. She did not meet the organisation in person to inform it of the reasons for this decision, which was communicated through an official. I find it absolutely bizarre that the responsibilities of this organisation are being transferred to a primary school organisation. If I were the parent of a secondary school child, I would not be impressed to be told that an organisation for the parents of primary school children is going to represent the parents of secondary school children.

Deputy Norma Foley

I want to acknowledge that the parent voice is hugely important. I have seen the benefit of it throughout the past number of years. There is no question whatsoever in relation to that. I also want to make the point that parents with children in primary school often also have children in post-primary school. However, that is neither here not there. The Chair suggested that all of the issues have been satisfactorily resolved. If all of the issues that had arisen were satisfactorily resolved, we would not be in the position we are in currently. The fact is that no opportunity was being provided by the NPCPP to co-operate with a necessary review of governance. An organisation has to make itself available to any type of governance review where State funding is on the table. It speaks volumes that this organisation was given latitude of six to seven months to make itself available to do what needed to be done and to co-operate with that review.

It is not a decision that was taken lightly. Considerable latitude was given to the NPCPP to do what every other organisation in receipt of State funding must do when asked to, that is, to make itself available to a review. Not doing so left us in the current unenviable position. I am at a loss to understand why there was a lack of co-operation in that respect and why it could not have been done. As I have said, numerous meetings were held and the council was given many opportunities to make itself available and to co-operate with the review. At no point over the six or seven months was it prepared to do that. As a consequence, the review has taken place and the draft review has been presented to the council for its comment. It is my understanding that, even at this point, no comment has been made on the draft review. I am at a loss to understand how the Chair cannot understand the obligation on bodies to make themselves available for an appropriate review of governance, which takes place in many situations in light of our obligation to ensure all State funding is appropriately managed. I am also at a loss to understand why that could not have taken place.

Chairman

Is the Minister saying that there are ongoing governance issues at the moment?

Deputy Norma Foley

I am telling the Chair that the council was requested to co-operate with a governance review.

Chairman

No, I am asking whether the Minister is saying that there are ongoing governance issues right at this moment in time.

Deputy Norma Foley

I am replying to the point the Chair made in saying that all issues were addressed. I am not aware that all issues have been addressed. The key issue was the necessity to co-operate with an important governance review. That was not done even though latitude of six to seven months was allowed. It is not possible to provide funding to organisations that do not co-operate with appropriate governance structures and do not answer appropriate questions.

Chairman

The Minister said that she was at a loss to understand why the council did not communicate with her Department. As Minister, did she reach out to the group?

Deputy Norma Foley

The review was independent.

Chairman

But did the Minister try to reach out?

Deputy Norma Foley

No, the review was independent and it was important that it remain independent of me, as Minister.

Chairman

I still think that it is a mistake to withdraw funding without proper negotiation with-----

Deputy Norma Foley

There was six to seven months of repeated engagement with the organisation and requests to engage and co-operate with governance obligations. Refusing to do so over six to seven months speaks for itself.

Chairman

I differ with the Minister on that.

Deputy Norma Foley

That is fair enough. We will agree to disagree.

Chairman

I feel that the Minister's decision is wrong and that the withdrawal of funding sends out the wrong message to secondary school parents and their associations up and down the country. I understand from the council that its governance issues have been overcome and that there was-----

Deputy Norma Foley

If the governance issues had been overcome, the council would have co-operated with the review.

Chairman

Perhaps the Minister should look to some of the officials in her own Department to see if there were also issues on that side. I ask the Minister to meet with the NPCPP to discuss whatever issues it has with the Department and her officials if there are issues there. Speaking on behalf of many parents who have real concerns about this issue, I urge the Minister to do that.

Deputy Norma Foley

I want to be very clear. I am not clear as to the inference the Chair is making about the officials within my Department. He might clarify what exactly he is saying.

Chairman

I will speak very clearly. Perhaps the Minister could see if there are issues between officials in the Minister's Department and the NPCPP that she is not aware of. I am not aware of any but I suggest the Minister should meet with the president and officials from the NPCPP to see what its issues are. It is my understanding that the Minister has not officially met with the group and I believe it is very important that she does so before she makes a final decision on this.

Deputy Norma Foley

To be clear, I have absolute confidence in the officials of my Department. They have-----

Chairman

I am not saying the Minister does not. I never said that.

Deputy Norma Foley

I just want to be clear. I have every confidence in the integrity of the officials of my Department and in how they have conducted their business not just with the NPCPP but with all with whom they engage. The draft review is now with the NPCPP. It is an independent process and for that reason it is not appropriate for me to meet with the council. It has an opportunity to comment on the draft review should it wish to do so. This arrangement with the National Parents Council at primary level is strictly an interim measure until the issues are resolved.

Chairman

Has the Minister sat down with the primary school association to discuss this?

Deputy Norma Foley

The interim proposal was made in discussions between officials of my Department and the primary school parents' group.

Chairman

Will the Minister commit to sending the committee details of all departmental education reviews being undertaken at the moment and the proposed deadlines for completion of each? It would be very much appreciated.

In the context of oversight, the Minister may recall the committee report on school bullying and the impact it has on mental health. Her Department has since launched a progressive action plan. The committee did fantastic work on the issue of school bullying but none of the committee members was invited to that launch. Perhaps that was an oversight on the part of her Department but it is very important to recognise the work of committee members. The members and the officials who put the report together spent a considerable amount of time on it. I would very much appreciate-----

Deputy Norma Foley

The Deputy will recall that I referenced that at the outset when I spoke about Cineáltas. I acknowledged the committee's work.

Chairman

What I am saying is that it would have been appreciated if committee members had been invited to the launch because they put a lot of work into this issue and much of their work was included in the plan the Department published. I have one final question.

Deputy Cathal Crowe

I just want it on the record that I had no problem with that.

Chairman

That is okay.

We had the building unit before the committee last week. The Department's purchase of a site in County Wexford has been going on for two years and now no school will ever be built on the site. This is unfortunate because both the vocational school and the Educate Together primary school in Wexford town have now been delayed by more than two years. It is very unfortunate that there was not more consultation between Wexford County Council and the building unit of the Minister's Department about the site in question.

Deputy Norma Foley

For the record, the Department did not purchase the site. It was purchased subject to planning and the project is now going through the planning process. There is an issue around that. However, it is my understanding that it was only purchased subject to planning. There is further-----

Chairman

Will the Department be applying for planning permission for a school on that site?

Deputy Norma Foley

My understanding is that the site has been purchased subject to planning. It appears that there may be some constraints, difficulties or challenges associated with the site but the Department is engaging with the patron and the relevant body, the local authority or whatever it might be, in that regard. The process is ongoing but the site has been purchased subject to planning.

Chairman

I understand that but will the Department be submitting a planning application in respect of a school on that site?

Deputy Norma Foley

It is important to acknowledge that there appears to be some challenges and that these will have to be worked through first. That is my understanding. I will look into the matter to see if there is any additional information that I do not have at present and revert to the Chair but it is my understanding that the site has only been purchased subject to planning.

Deputy Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire

I will raise a few other issues, some of which partly follow on from what others have mentioned. I will also briefly take the opportunity to express my party's condolences on the loss of Niamh Bhreathnach, who was a pioneering Minister for Education.

I extend my condolences to her family and to the Labour Party. She will be remembered for her decision to end fees and to break the cycle. I am familiar with a number of schools that were part of that at the outset and it made a significant difference.

I do not want to reopen this discussion but I have one question relating to the National Parents Council Post Primary. It has come to my attention it did not engage with the review because it felt it was not adequately independent, which was put to the Department. Will the Minister respond to that? Did the Department examine that and was it satisfied the review was independent?

Deputy Norma Foley

I am satisfied it was an appropriate review. It was a consequence of a procurement process. It was and remains an independent review.

Deputy Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire

There was no conflict of interest, as far as the Minister is concerned.

Deputy Norma Foley

No.

Deputy Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire

Two issues arose during other members' questions, one of which related to physical activity and school buildings. We had a debate on this and I also had a debate with the school buildings unit. I take every opportunity to discuss this. The Department needs to have a rethink of how it approaches this. As far as I can see, although it is not nailed down in black and white, the position of the Department is that for older school buildings that do not have a hall, unless they are building a completely new school building, they will have to wait until the summer for a large-scale fabric upgrade of the entire building. This seems to relate to the 10% of schools that either do not have a school hall or have only limited access to one. Coláiste Daibhéad, which I have mentioned in the past, is a DEIS school of between 220 and 240 students in Cork city centre. The students have to get a bus to travel to PE. Similarly, Coláiste Éamann Rís, or Deerpark CBS as it used to be known, also a DEIS school, is quickly expanding and comprises 700 students. The building was built in the late 1960s and early 1970s and does not have a sports hall. These secondary schools want to be in a position to offer PE as an exam subject and to be able to offer PE to students even if it is raining. I urge the Minister to reconsider this area, although I am not expecting a response on it now. I accept we have to be mindful of climate change and so on, but perhaps those schools that need school halls could be considered a priority for fabric upgrade and retrofitting.

My second point follows on what Deputy Ó Ríordáin asked about school transport. I have emailed the Minister, Bus Éireann and the school transport section within the Department about this. This issue involving Douglas Rochestown Educate Together National School and the school transport system is unique. I had never come across it before. The rule states that in order to be eligible for the scheme, pupils must live more than 3.2 km from the school via a traversable route. The Department and Bus Éireann reverted with a diagram showing a traversable route that is not accessible by foot, bike or car in any legal or safe manner. It requires cars to go out the wrong way onto a slip road leading to what will soon be a motorway but is currently a national primary road. It just cannot be done. The students cannot get there in under 5 km. That just cannot be done by any mode of transport, not just by car. I understand that in some emails to parents, the Department has suggested "traversable" does not need to be traversable in practice. It stated it had calculated that it was not required to take into account a one-way road system or whether the route is traversable by bus, and that the measurement was merely one of the shortest route available. If this is the policy, that is a bit daft, although I appreciate the Minister would not have formulated it. There is a minimum distance but it does not matter whether it can be travelled.

Deputy Norma Foley

Absolutely. I do not know the detail of it but I fully hear the case the Deputy is making. If he leaves it with me, I will get one of my officials to revert to him. Out of interest, what is the distance when the route is traversable?

Deputy Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire

There are probably two different ways to calculate it, but it is between 5 km and 6 km.

Deputy Norma Foley

Okay. I do not know the detail on it but I assure the Deputy I will get one of my officials to revert to him on it.

Deputy Cathal Crowe

I was on the airwaves the other day praising the efforts of the Department throughout the Ukrainian crisis. In March of last year, the Department was the first Department to use a geographical information system, GIS, and capacity mapping, in this case to determine where schools could meet the need arising from the influx of Ukrainian children. That went very well and was led by the Department. Subsequently, the regional education and language team, REALT, system was set up and it has also worked very well in the mid-west. In County Clare, about 3.5% of our county's population is Ukrainian, and that is not counting asylum seekers who have come here under the direct provision model. It is quite large and onerous.

I do not want to lay any fault on the Minister's Department, given the situation has been well managed. Nevertheless, largely down to the protests in East Wall and the other awful protests elsewhere in the country, the recent approach of the International Protection Accommodation Services, IPAS, has been not to tell communities, schools or the Department of Education until the eleventh hour. I am going to raise this tomorrow with the Minister for Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth. Again, it is not a criticism of the REALTs, the Minister or her Department but of the current approach of IPAS. A centre is planned for Shannon, County Clare, where we have found out, through parliamentary questions and a drip-drip of information, that 300 people will come. Nobody has notified the Department or the REALTs and nobody has spoken to any of the six school principals, yet there is already an enrolment crisis there.

I do not know whether there is anything to be said in response during this meeting but the Minister and her officials might have oversight. This is a matter on which they have led very well for many months but IPAS is now withholding information, and that is down to the fact information has been misused in recent weeks. When there is not enough information, that can get polluted with wrong information and exploited by people on the far right. Will the Minister speak to the REALT co-ordinators and, rather than have them wait for this information to come, in this instance reach out and set out the facts, whether we need to plan for September 2023 and possibly sooner than that to accommodate these children.

Deputy Norma Foley

I acknowledge the excellent work of the REALTs on the ground. They have been invaluable to us. They are based in our education and training boards, ETBs, and have done tremendous work. They are a mirror of the excellent work that is taking place every day in our schools, which have been so flexible and resilient. As the Deputy noted, there are now more than 14,000 Ukrainian students in our schools, and I acknowledge that a huge proportion of them have been taken care of in County Clare and many other counties.

We have capacity in certain areas of the country. Some areas are at maximum capacity, while others still have capacity. We seek to engage with the Department of Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth but it has specific challenges relating to accommodation. Its focus is on the accommodation side and that is a significant challenge for that Department.

As for our REALT co-ordinators, we will continue to feed in with them, as we do all the time, and there are regular engagements with the REALTs. I will highlight the issues the Deputy raised.

Deputy Cathal Crowe

I thank the Minister. Earlier today, the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Transport and Communications met and had a lengthy debate. One of the focuses was on transport and we got into the realm of school transport for a while. I might explain the discussion because I think there is merit to it. School transport is very important and I have often spoken to the Minister about this, both publicly and privately.

Five buses equal one train. A bus can be transformative in a rural community. The local school where I taught had an enrolment of 347 pupils. It was on a third class road. A car might not be seen on it for ten minutes, but in the morning at 9 a.m. and at 2.40 p.m. there would be 347 drop-offs and pick-ups at that school gate. It was bedlam. A school bus is transformative as it takes many cars off the road and allows parents to have a better morning getting to work or to whatever their plans are for the day. School transport was fantastic this year. It was the best decision taken by the Department. I had some teething problems - we have been through all of that - but the concept alone was fantastic and it is one that should be held onto.

The discussion in committee room 2 across the corridor pointed out that at the moment Bus Éireann and private fleet vehicles are contracted to do the school run in the morning. They drop off 50 children at a school and leave empty because their contract is with the Department of Education and for only school transport. A good, deep discussion took place. It was said there must be some way in the halls of Government for Ministers and their officials to flip this on its head to ensure the school bus becomes a public bus after the moment of drop-off. There is a bus going into every small village every morning. That bus could take people back to the town. It would work equally well in Parteen in County Clare as in the Minister's constituency in County Kerry. It would be transformative. The Minister, Deputy Ryan, had a free flowing thought process, as Deputy Ryan sometimes does, and the committee valued it. This idea was teased out by committee members. We think it has merit and perhaps the Ministers can join the dots to allow something like this to happen in the new academic year.

Deputy Norma Foley

I acknowledge, and the Deputy will appreciate, that great strides have been made on BusConnects and its linkages. They are invaluable, especially, as the Deputy said, in rural constituencies. I have seen the benefit of that. The more we can increase the opportunity for people to take public transport, the better the benefit. The impetus for the school transport review is to look at a variety of aspects, including a climate point of view, sustainability and maximising opportunities, as the Deputy referenced. That is all feeding into the review. A cross-departmental approach is being taken to the review. Various Departments are represented on the review group. It will be an interesting piece of work on completion. I see the benefit of what the Deputy is suggesting, that it would be almost a multi-tasked service going forward.

Chairman

Is there anything the Minister's Department can do about what is going on in Wilson's Hospital School in Westmeath? I have no doubt this is affecting the welfare and education of the students in the school. There is probably very little the Minister can do, but what is happening is outrageous.

Deputy Norma Foley

As the Chair is aware, the matter is subject to a number of legal cases and it would not be appropriate for me to comment on it at this point.

Chairman

Okay.

Media Literacy Ireland noted in a statement last week its concerns regarding the tackling of disinformation and stated that more should be happening in secondary schools to educate students on the increase in the number of conspiracy theories. It used Covid-19 as an example. Media Literacy Ireland stated that there should be specific training in schools to equip students for the future. The Minister's Department was questioned about this issue last week by the media. Are there plans to roll out workshops by Media Literacy Ireland or any organisation to equip and educate secondary school students on how to spot disinformation?

Deputy Norma Foley

Critical thinking is a part of all of the various syllabuses provided by the Department and rolled out in our schools. From experience, I know children and young people are well-versed on simple initiatives such as advertising and a critical reading of whatever is available online or in a paper. Spotting what constitutes truth and what constitutes what the Chair refers to as disinformation is part of the expertise provided in our schools. Equally the Online Safety and Media Regulation Act 2022 is important in this area. Earlier I referenced the initiatives that take place in our schools in educating students on the challenges and otherwise of the social media world.

Chairman

I thank the Minister and her officials for the constructive engagement this evening. On behalf of the committee, I send our condolences to the family of Niamh Bhreathnach and to the Labour Party. She was a former Minister for Education and left her mark in that Department.

That concludes the select committee's consideration of the Revised Estimates on Vote 26.