Select Committee on Enterprise and Economic Strategy díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 6 Mar 1996

SECTION 1.

Ms Keogh

I move amendment No. 1:

In page 3, subsection (1), line 31, after "contract" to insert "for services or".

The purpose of this amendment, which is designed to allay one of the concerns of the ICTU, is to prevent attempts to avoid the effects of the Bill by entering into contracts for the services of a child or a young person. This is where the child or young person is treated as self-employed. Promotional work, involving the distribution of samples of food or drink and leaflets, is an example of such a contract. Courier firms are also involved in this area.

Minister of State at the Department of Enterprise and Employment (Ms E. Fitzgerald)

The Bill as drafted applies to people working with a contract of employment; in other words, people with a contract of service. This contract is distinguished from a self-employed contract, which is a contract for services and which does not come under employment law. I am happy to review the provision but it is not appropriate to include self-employment when it is not covered under labour law. I will examine the type of situations Deputy Keogh mentioned when reviewing employment law. In this Bill I am widening the definition of who is covered under the Protection of Young Persons (Employment) Act, 1977, to include people employed as agency workers. An employment agency is the employer in that case. This follows from what has been done in employment law in the past couple of years. We have broadened employment law and I will examine how to include self-employment. We do not intend, for example, to include baby sitting in the Bill.

I ask the Deputy to withdraw the amendment on the understanding that I will consider including self-employed contracts under employment law.

Mr. T. Kitt

I sympathise with Deputy Keogh on the issue of employment contracts. We must address the issue of atypical work. The Minister said she will review employment legislation. I am concerned about the number of young people involved in courier services, door to door sales of books and magazines and the distribution of leaflets. The Minister has reassured us that she will look at the definition of an employment contract. I am also aware of the trade unions' concerns.

Ms Keogh

I am happy that the Minister recognises the difficulties and I accept her statement that she will consider the matter further.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Ms Keogh

I move amendment No. 2:

In page 5, subsection (1), between lines 24 and 25, to insert the following:

"‘work' shall not include the supervision of children in a domestic context;".

It is ironic that the Minister alluded to the area of baby sitting. The purpose of this amendment is to clarify that baby sitting activities are excluded from the Bill. It was said this would be necessary given that section 4 provides that a person under 16 is not allowed to work after 8 p.m. and must get an unpaid break of at least 30 minutes after four hours' work, whereas an EU directive specifically permits exemption from its terms to be made for domestic service.

The Minister said baby sitting is not covered by the Bill but the concern is that while a once-off arrangement may not be covered, there are often contractual-type arrangements—my daughter, who is over 16, has a regular babysitting job. I would like further interpretation from the Minister on this amendment.

Ms E. Fitzgerald

Even if a person has a regular babysitting job with next door neighbours, it would normally be a contract for services. As amendment No. 1 has been withdrawn it is not covered under the Bill but we are anxious to cover a person employed full-time in caring for children at the age of 16 or 17, so that he or she would have the full protection of the Bill. We think it preferable to exempt contract for services— that is, occasional babysitting which would not involve a contract of employment — but include people employed on a normal contract of employment whose day job is the care of children. We would not be happy to exempt the latter but the circumstances about which Deputy Keogh is concerned are outside the Bill.

Ms Keogh

Is the Minister saying a regular babysitting job, where there might not be a contract, is exempt?

Ms E. Fitzgerald

If, for instance, my daughter babysits every Friday night for the woman next door, that is a contract for services so it is exempt under the Bill. However, it is our intention that a person who is working from 9 to 5 as a childminder in another person's home would have the protection of the Bill. If Deputy Keogh's amendment was accepted he or she would not have that protection. We want regular workers to be covered by the Bill but occasional babysitting, even regular weekly babysitting, is exempt because it is a contract for services.

Mr. E. O'Keeffe

Babysitting is a fact of life in urban and rural areas. Parents go to work and their children must be minded, so they are transferred from one home to another, usually between 9.30 a.m. and 5 p.m. Will that be covered by the Bill or is it exempted? In many such cases payment is nominal or small, it is more out of friendship that one mother will mind children for another. Anything which would interfere with that relationship would not be fair or reasonable in an Irish context. Could the Minister clarify that?

Ms E. Fitzgerald

Where someone is working under a contract of employment — in other words, a person's day job is to go to another person's job to mind their children, and he or she is properly employed, with a regular contract of employment and is paying stamps, insurance, etc. — that is covered under the Bill and we intend that it would be because a 16 or 17 year old in those circumstances deserve the protection of the legislation on a health and safety basis. Where there is no contract of employment — if someone's mother or a friend is minding a child, say — it is not our intention that the terms of the Bill would apply. I think that covers Deputy Keogh's concerns and her amendment No. 2 would follow if we had accepted amendment No. 1.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Section 1 agreed to.

Sections 2 and 3 agreed to.