I move amendment No. 30:
In page 19, subsection (2), to delete lines 19 and 20 and substitute the following:
"the authorised person or member in the exercise of his or her functions under this section may be brought into such premises and the authorised person, member or any such person may take with".
I thank the Minister for circulating the figures. There are 600 horses in the South Dublin County Council area. Representations have been made by the management of that council on the Bill. The council is unhappy that it cannot seize a horse which has been impounded two or even three times. It has a problem, not unlike the revolving door policy in the justice system. There is a revolving door syndrome with the same horses repeatedly coming in and out of the pound. To address that the council is anxious that, as in the original heads of the Bill, at least in the case of a stray horse under section 36 (1) (a) the council would be entitled to dispose of the horse following a second or subsequent seizure. I presume the Minister of State has constitutional problems and this is an extension of the earlier discussion.
Nobody suggests that people who drop litter on the street have constitutional rights and that somehow they have to be notified before it is cleared off. There is an analogy to be drawn there. If a person is shown to have abandoned his property, as would be the case with a stray horse, it is difficult to see what constitutional justification there is to say in the case of a second or third offence why in the interest of the common good one cannot forfeit such a horse to the local authority. I appreciate this would not go through court but there is a practical problem with the pound and it might be addressed through the by-laws which the local authority will have power to draw up under section 38. Various onerous requirements could be written in which would make it difficult for horse owners to get their horses out of the pound, such as imposing a severe financial penalty. It is the same principle as when a Garda seizes a car in the city. It is a question of how difficult it will be made for the person trying to recover the horse from the pound. The experience of that authority is of a revolving door syndrome in the pound. I appeal to the Minister of State to look at that in the context of his constitutional review.
I responded to the same question when we dealt with Deputy Kenneally's amendment and the original scheme of the Bill included confiscation after the third impoundment. That was the way I thought at the time but we changed the Bill based on legal advice from the Attorney General's office about individual's rights and property rights. If somebody abandons a horse I presume he is no longer interested in it. There would not be a question of retrieving that horse. It is only when people want to retrieve an impounded horse that they pay a fee. I mentioned, as did the Deputy, in terms of the provisions in section 38 that I would suggest an increasing scale of fees for repeated offences. It will not be profitable for people to allow their horse to wander and to retrieve them. That is the thrust of how I am trying to deal with that problem. It would be effective if we could confiscate horses after three offences.
This section authorises a person or a member of the Garda Síochána to seize and detain any horse that the person or garda has reason to suspect of wandering, straying or causing a nuisance. How will this section be put into effect? How will a member of the Garda Síochána or an authorised person seize or detain a horse?
It may seem simple to round up horses and take them away in a truck. However, the experience of Galway Corporation in the past has been that the authorised persons, the employees of the local authority, are very reluctant to become involved in rounding up stray horses without Garda protection. When the Garda became involved, I was informed by a superintendent that his men believed their lives were at risk. He would no longer ask them to undertake the duty because there was no adequate compensation or insurance available in the event of injuries.
The effectiveness of the legislation will largely depend on the ability to implement this section. What consideration has the Minister of State given to seizing and detaining wandering horses? How will this be undertaken. What special arrangements, if any, will be implemented and what techniques or equipment will be used? Who will carry out such seizures and what will be the role of the Garda? Will the authorised persons be expected to carry out round-ups without Garda protection? In the event of such protection being required, will the Garda respond? Are members of the Force obliged to respond? Senior officers have been reluctant to involve their men in rounding up stray horses in Galway local authority area because of the danger to life and limb.
I understand Deputy Molloy's point. It will not be easy to implement the legislation and there will be much resistance to it, there has already been resistance to it. I hope the Garda, because their powers are strengthened by the Bill, will play a more effective role in impounding horses. I also hope to encourage close co-operation between the Garda and local authorities. There must be a cooperative approach between the Garda and local authorities to ensure the effectiveness of the legislation. There is no doubt that the powers of the Garda relating to this matter were weak. Gardaí were afraid to become involved in impounding horses for insurance reasons. However, under this Bill their powers will be strengthened considerably and I hope they will play a more effective role as a result.
It is the responsibility of councils to designate a sub-contractor to carry out their work. This is taking place in Cork at present. I spoke to the sub-contractor authorised by Cork County Council to carry out this work and it is being done effectively. The sub-contractor is used to facing difficult challenges and circumstances when impounding horses.
This Bill will strengthen the powers of the Garda and the local authorities. However, it will still be difficult to come to terms with opposition to the legislation. There must be co-ordination and co-operation between the Garda and local authorities to ensure its effectiveness. A consultative group comprising officials from the Departments of the Environment and Justice and the local authorities is meeting at present and will, I hope, encouage the type of co-operation to which I referred. This will ensure the success of the Bill. I never suggested it would be easy to implement the legislation because there will be major difficulties in doing so.
Is there an obligation on Garda officers to respond to complaints from the public or must there be a request from a local authority before they become involved? In the event of their involvement, are uniformed Garda expected to run after horses and round them up?
The Bill states that the Garda can act independently of the local authorities regarding impounding horses.
Rounding up horses is a specialised job because lives can be put in danger. It is not good enough to ask gardaí to round up horses if they do not have the relevant expertise. This places a cost on local authorities. Is there a time limit after which local authorities can dispose of impounded horses? This matter also involves costs. Will it be clearly stated that a horse will be disposed of if it is not claimed after a specified period?
Section 36 is important and I am glad the Minister of State indicated that the Garda have powers to act independently of local authorities. I have been informed that a large number of horses are brought to the De Selby estate, an enclosed estate with an entrance, in Tallaght at 10 o'clock at night for the purpose of grazing. The owners return in the morning to round up their animals which have grazed on private lawns and the grass verges and open spaces on the estate. Local authorities do not operate at night and the people of the estate in question sought assurance that the Garda would have the power to take immediate action. Members can imagine the damage 25 horses could do while grazing on a small estate of 100 houses. I have seen horses that were unable to turn around kick down dividing walls between gardens. They can cause mayhem overnight in a small estate.
This is an important section and it is essential that the Garda be given power to implement it. They must be given the means, capability and expertise to operate in this regard, and insurance cover must also be provided. Most damage is caused and offences are committed during the period when local authorities do not function at night. Another loophole will develop if the grazers of horses or those who keep horses in controlled areas exercise or graze their horses at night, when it is least possible to deal with the problem. These matters must be tackled. The people we are dealing with are so devious, they will avail of every opportunity to circumvent the legislation.
We must ensure that the Garda are given adequate resources. The Minister of State accepts that there will be difficulties in implementing the legislation and the public are concerned as to whether it will deal with the problem. The Minister of State has done an excellent job and produced a detailed Bill. However, regardless of how it is drafted, the legislation will be judged on the results it achieves. I request the Minister of State to ensure that the Garda have as many resources and expertise at their disposal as the local authorities.
I agree with the last two speakers. Theoretically, the Bill is adequate in this regard, but, in practice, it will present major difficulties. The Garda seem to have more than enough on their hands at present. To present them with this additional work without giving them the necessary resources is a recipe for non-implementation of the Bill.
Where does the stray horse not under adequate control and suffering an injury go? What happens at present, as I understand it, is the Garda notify the Dublin Society for the Protection of Animals which is under-resourced, has no proper funding or resources available from the State and is expected, despite this, to come out. It does so because it has a commitment to injured animals. Does the Minister have any plans to resource the DSPCA properly and adequately, to fund it and ensure it receives whatever additional transport and funding it requires? It is a serious problem in Dublin. Many horses suffer injury and a voluntary organisation the State has not resourced is expected to deal with the problem.
There are some interesting questions and comments there.
As regards Deputy Boylan's point on the detention of horses, it may be necessary to detain a horse for a longer period of time if court action is pending. That is a major consideration.
As regards Deputy Walsh's point, if he looks at section 39 (2), superintendents will be required to keep a register of the horses they confiscate, impound or seize. The Garda will be seen to have a major role to play in the implementation of this Bill. While I accept they are stretched as it is, it is important that the Garda be involved. The night is an effective time to impound horses, where you may meet with less resistance. I foresee the Garda playing an important role in implementing and enforcing this legislation. I would be first to acknowledge that the DSPCA plays an important role in animal welfare. Last year it received an allocation of £50,000 which is probably totally inadequate to meet their demands. Within the Bill, in section 38 (c), there is the provision for a by-law to provide veterinary services for such horses. Hopefully, that section could meet that requirement and I hope it would.
I am not sure how the provision of veterinary services is all-embracing to the extent that it can provide for what I am concerned about, which is that the DSPCA will undoubtedly continue to be the only agency providing for injured horses. It needs transport, equipment and adequate funding and I ask the Minister — I do not expect a commitment now — to get some of his officials to talk to the DSPCA and establish its needs. It is not going to cost millions, but an additional help over and above the small grant it gets could make its operation more effective and would curtail and alleviate a great deal of suffering caused to horses in Dublin.
That question was raised before the Deputy came in and the Minister gave a commitment to it.
I have no difficulty in addressing this matter any time with the DSPCA.
