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Select Committee on Enterprise, Trade and Employment díospóireacht -
Thursday, 9 Feb 2023

Vote 32 - Enterprise, Trade and Employment (Revised)

I have a reminder on public health arrangements. All those in the committee room are asked to exercise personal responsibility to protect themselves and others from the risk of contracting Covid-19. Members are required to be in the Leinster House complex to attend the meeting remotely. We have had no apologies today. We will consider the Revised Estimates for 2023 for Vote 32 - Enterprise, Trade and Employment. I welcome the Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment and his officials to the meeting. We appreciate the comprehensive briefing material that was provided by the Department for today's discussion. It has been circulated to members. The proposed format of the meeting is that we deal with Vote 32 on a programme-by-programme basis. There are three programmes and appropriations-in-aid. The Minister will make an opening statement. We will then consider each of the programmes separately with questions from members of the committee. I ask members to indicate which subhead they are referring to.

I remind people of parliamentary privilege before we start. I wish to explain some limitations to parliamentary privilege and the practice of the Houses with regard to reference people may make to another person in their evidence. The evidence of witnesses physically present or who give evidence from within the parliamentary precincts is protected, pursuant to the Constitution and statute, by absolute privilege. Witnesses are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable, or otherwise engage in speech that might be regarded as defamatory to the good name of the person or entity. Therefore, if their statements are potentially defamatory with regard to an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed by me to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative that they comply with any such direction.

I invite the Minister to make his brief opening remarks on the Revised Estimates.

I thank the Chair. It is good to get the opportunity to sit before the committee for the first time in this brief. I look forward to working with everybody. I am pleased to have the opportunity to discuss my Department’s 2023 Estimate with the committee this evening. I am grateful to the committee for facilitating the change in the time for today's meeting. My officials have provided a briefing on our Estimate to the secretariat of the committee, which hopefully will be of assistance to members.

The environment in which our Estimate is being presented has undoubtedly changed. While previous Estimates were framed in the light of challenges such as Brexit and Covid, new challenges have emerged, not least in terms of increasing inflation, cost of living and significant increases in energy prices, impacted in no small measure by the war in Ukraine. The economic model that we have followed has served us well as is evident from the resilience of our economy to the elemental challenges posed by Brexit, Covid and now Ukraine. The fact that we have been able to grow the economy and maintain and increase employment is a testament to that resilience but also to the prudent management of our public finances and the value of the targeted supports and initiatives provided through recent budgets.

The value of our targeted policies can be seen particularly in the area of employment where, unemployment has fallen to 4.4% from the levels experienced in the height of the pandemic. While recent announcements of job losses in strategic sectors such as the tech sector are matters of concern, not least for the workers affected, the reality is that more than 2.55 million of our people are now at work. In this regard, the clients of the enterprise agencies of my Department employ more than 550,000 people, which is in excess of 21% of the total workforce. This is a remarkable figure and is a testament to the work of Enterprise Ireland, IDA Ireland and local enterprise offices, LEOs, and the value that they deliver for the funding they receive from the Exchequer.

The Estimate I have the pleasure to present to the committee provides my Department with a gross allocation of €1.621 billion for use this year, broken down as €1.035 billion in current funding and €585.6 million in capital funding. This represents an increase of 4% on our voted allocation of €1.558 billion as per the Supplementary Estimate approved by the Dáil last December. Both the 2022 Supplementary Estimate and the 2023 Revised Estimate included discrete allocations of €650 million to fund the cost of claims under the temporary business energy support scheme, TBESS. Stripping out the TBESS moneys, the Department’s core allocation for 2023 is €972.3 million, which represents an increase of 7.6% on our core allocation for 2022 of €903.8 million, as published in the original 2022 Revised Estimates. The increased funding being provided in the Estimate will allow the Department and our agencies to roll out a number of new initiatives under each of the three programmes in our Vote.

The Revised Estimate has increased the core funding to our jobs and enterprise development programme, excluding the once-off TBESS moneys, by 6%. Specifically, the Estimate has increased IDA Ireland's 2023 capital and current funding by almost €17.5 million, or 8%, to in excess of €208 million. IDA Ireland has also secured additional funding of €30.5 million in capital carryover. This will enable the authority to accelerate the roll-out of its regional property programme. The authority expects to spend €60 million on delivering property solutions in different areas across the country this year. Under its current property programme, IDA Ireland has delivered three advance facilities in Monaghan, Dundalk and Sligo. In addition, the authority has also completed the construction of its advance manufacturing centre in Limerick, which is a critical national facility for trialling, adopting and scaling digital technologies. In 2023, the authority expects to deliver a further four facilities in Carlow, Limerick, Waterford and Athlone by the first quarter of the year.

The increase in IDA Ireland’s funding will also allow it to further invest in the National Institute for Bioprocessing Research and Training, NIBRT. NIBRT is a globally-recognised centre of excellence for training and research in bioprocessing, has transformed Ireland’s capacity to train and educate a skilled workforce in support of major biopharmaceutical investment since it opened in 2011. IDA Ireland, through its capital grant programme, will also invest in a number of important projects of common European interest, IPCEI. The IPCEI initiative is an EU policy that encourages investments in large-scale, multi-country projects for global state-of-the-art innovation to address market or systemic failures in particular sectors. IDA Ireland's IPCEI investments will be in the area of microelectronics and communication and will focus on unlocking the potential of these technologies for the downstream industry and Europe's society.

The Revised Estimate increases the core allocation to Enterprise Ireland by €23.35 million, or 12%. Enterprise Ireland, EI, will also benefit from the use of an additional €24 million in capital carryover moneys.

This will allow Enterprise Ireland, EI, to increase funding to its capital support programmes, including its Evolve strategic planning grant and its capital investment scheme, which is a key support for the food industry as it adjusts to the reality of the post-Brexit trading environment.

The acceleration of the decarbonisation of the enterprise sector and the digital transformation of enterprises by way of targeted supports and incentives are specific priorities under the national recovery and resilience plan. Key initiatives in promoting these transitions are EI’s green and digital transition funds. Total funding of €140 million will be invested through these funds over the lifetime of the plan. The €35 million in funding support being provided in the Revised Estimate will enable EI to further progress the various strands of both funds this year.

The impact of the war in Ukraine will also continue to be a focus for EI in the coming year, especially given the challenges it poses for indigenous businesses. EI’s Ukraine enterprise crisis fund, which was rolled out late last year, provides liquidity supports to viable manufacturing and internationally-traded services companies experiencing trading difficulties, as well as targeted supports for eligible energy-intensive companies experiencing severe increases in energy costs. Funding for the scheme is being provided from the capital carryover moneys secured for EI in the Revised Estimate. I will also be engaging with my colleague, the Minister for Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform, to secure additional funding for the scheme from the discrete Ukraine contingency identified in budget 2023.

The 7,780 new jobs created by clients of the local enterprise offices, LEOs, in 2022 demonstrate their key role in promoting job creation and enterprise development across our towns, villages and local communities. As the committee may be aware, the expansion of the mandate of the LEOs to support businesses with more than ten employees was a specific commitment under the programme for Government and not before time. An additional €2 million is being provided in the Revised Estimate to allow the LEOs to extend targeted supports, on a pilot basis, to particular enterprises employing more than ten, but less than 50, full-time employees. The outcomes of this pilot will help determine the way forward for providing additional grant supports over the coming years. The LEOs’ allocation also includes a further €2 million to support the introduction of a new green capital grant, the small firms investment in energy efficiency grant, which will provide a grant to companies to encourage investment in energy efficiency technologies or processes that reduce carbon emissions and overall energy costs.

With regard to access to finance, the Department will continue to support businesses that experience difficulty in accessing mainstream credit through discrete schemes such as Microfinance Ireland, the Ukraine credit guarantee scheme and the various Strategic Banking Corporation of Ireland, SBCI, loan schemes. One such scheme is the growth and sustainability loan scheme, the funding for which was secured in the Supplementary Estimate approved by the Dáil last December. The scheme, which will be launched in 2023, will make up to €500 million in loans available to small and medium-sized enterprises, SMEs, and mid-caps to expand, create new jobs, access new markets, develop their products and services and invest in energy efficiency and sustainability.

The other main programme being funded through our jobs and enterprise development programme is the temporary business energy support scheme, TBESS. As the committee will be aware, this scheme was introduced late last December to assist businesses with increases in their electricity or natural gas energy costs. The funding for the scheme is provided through my Department’s Vote, albeit the scheme is being administered by the Revenue Commissioners. Since its launch, a total of 22,840 businesses have registered with Revenue for the scheme and payments to the value of €26.11 million have been made to applicants as of 9 February.

Undoubtedly, take-up under the scheme has been somewhat lower than expected. My colleague, the Minister for Finance, recently published a report on the operation of the scheme which acknowledged the slow take-up, but also noted that the numbers of applicants has begun to increase and is expected to increase further in the weeks ahead. The €650 million provided in the Estimate will ensure that payments arising from these applications can be paid this year. My colleagues, the Ministers, Deputies Michael McGrath, Donohoe and Eamon Ryan, and I, will keep the scheme under review and consider any changes that may be necessary to improve uptake.

The Revised Estimate increases the funding to our enterprise, innovation and commercialisation programme by 9% to €258.7 million for 2023. The increased funding will be targeted at our science and technology development programme and strengthening our membership of the European Space Agency programme.

Our science and technology development programme is mainly delivered by EI, through focused research and development and commercialisation activities and supports. The 17% increase in funding being provided in the Estimate will allow EI to increase the number of innovative high-potential start-ups, as well as in-company research and development approvals over €100,000, and to deliver a great number of collaborative innovation projects between companies and the higher education sector. Other targets will be increasing the number of spin-out companies from the Irish research system and the number of companies involved in EI technology centres, as well as establishing a new technology gateways programme.

The science and technology programme also includes funding to allow EI to roll out a number of projects approved under the current round of European regional development funding. Funding of more than €15.5 million is being provided to support the launch of three specific innovation initiatives, namely, the technological universities collaboration, needs-led innovation and knowledge transfer boost schemes. These schemes, which involve multi-annual investment, will greatly assist in delivering on our strategy of maximising the potential commercialisation of research and development and driving innovation in our economy in the coming years.

Additional funding of €3 million is also being provided to the European digital innovation hubs programme. The European digital innovation hubs are part of a pan-European programme and are intended to provide access to technical expertise and experimentation in order that organisations can test before they invest, as well as providing innovation services, financing advice, and the training and skills development necessary for successful digital transformation.

In addition, funding of €500,000 will be provided to support the new construction centre, which was launched last year. This funding will allow the centre to prioritise research activity and innovation in residential construction, especially in areas such as standardisation and routes to certification, next generation rapid-build systems and autonomous construction. For obvious reasons, we need to put money into this space.

Our membership of the European Space Agency and our engagement in the space technologies programme are key elements of the national space strategy. The additional funding of €1.5 million allocated to the European Space Agency in the Estimate builds on increases in the past number of years. This reflects our continued commitment to investing in Irish space active companies, thereby assisting them to secure significant numbers of additional contracts related to the European Space Agency, growing their business and, in turn, increasing the number of people they employ.

The other significant initiative being funded through our enterprise innovation and commercialisation programme is the disruptive technologies innovation fund, DTIF. The DTIF, which is one of the four headline national development programme funds, supports collaborative projects in the development and deployment of disruptive innovative technologies on a commercial basis, targeted at tackling national and global challenges.

There have been five calls so far under the fund, with the latest call being in April last year. Under the first four calls, a total of 86 collaborative projects involving 321 project partners have been approved for funding of €288 million. The €61 million allocated in the Estimate will ensure that successful projects under the existing calls can continue to be funded and allow for a sixth call to proceed in the first quarter of this year, which will probably be next month.

The €116.49 million being provided to support the Department’s regulation programme in 2023 represents a 10% increase on last year's allocation. This additional funding reflects the fact the mandates of a number of our regulatory agencies have expanded and seeks to ensure that they have the requisite resources to carry out those mandates. Specifically, the funding being provided to the Department’s workplace relations programme, which mainly covers the operations of the Workplace Relations Commission, WRC, is being increased by 7% to €21.4 million. This additional funding will allow the commission to continue to increase its staffing resources, especially regarding its number of inspectors. In this regard, the commission expects to increase its current complement of 63 inspectors by a further seven as a result of a recent recruitment campaign and intends to increase this number in further targeted campaigns planned for later on this year.

The budget of the Health and Safety Authority, HSA, is also being increased by almost €900,000. The authority is also engaged in an active recruiting campaign and the additional funding secured for it for 2023 will ensure it can continue to increase its compliment of inspectors, in particular specialist inspectors, given its important role in areas such as farm safety, chemicals, etc.

The Corporate Enforcement Authority was established as an independent statutory agency in July last year. The budget of the authority has been increased significantly in recent years to ensure it has the necessary resources to act as a robust enforcer of company law, as committed to by the Government. The 25% increase in its funding to €9.7 million this year will help the authority to embed its governance structures, build operational capability, engage in effective advocacy and influence and develop proportionate, robust and dissuasive enforcement processes across the sector.

The Revised Estimate has increased the allocation to the Competition and Consumer Protection Commission, CCPC, by €2 million, or 11%. The commission’s mandate has significantly expanded as a result of recently enacted legislation, including the Competition (Amendment) Act, the Consumer Rights Act, the price indications directive, the Digital Markets Act and the Digital Services Act. The increased allocation of €20.3 million will help to ensure the commission has the resources to carry out its new responsibilities.

The Digital Services Act is intended to combat the proliferation of illegal content online. The Act applies to intermediary service providers, ISPs, such as social media sites, online marketplaces, video sharing platforms and search engines. The Act obliges member states to designate a competent authority, to be known as the digital services co-ordinator, DSC, to supervise, implement and enforce the Act. The Government decided in March 2022 to designate An Coimisiún na Meán to be the DSC in Ireland. The DSC will carry out a range of functions with respect to overseeing the due diligence online intermediary service providers are required to exercise regarding requirements for transparency and procedures for handling take-down orders, dealing with complaints and so on. The €2.7 million in funding being provided to the DSC in the Revised Estimate is to allow for its establishment in 2023 and the recruitment of an initial staffing cohort, including a commissioner for digital services, so it can be up and running by the beginning of the third quarter of the year, as required by the Digital Services Act.

Funding is again being provided under our regulation programme to support the Balance for Better Business initiative. The Balance for Better Business group has been to the forefront in progressing gender balance in senior leadership in Ireland. The group’s latest report demonstrates the progress that has been achieved. The report found 32% of board members of listed companies are female. This is up from 14% in 2018 and breaks the key threshold of 30% for the first time. For ISEQ 20 companies, this was 36%, which exceeds the 30% output target. For other listed companies, the figure was 26%, which exceeds the 22% target that had been set. My Department fully supports the work of the group and its ambition to significantly increase the number of female chairs of ISEQ 20 companies, as well the number of female CEOs of such companies, and its efforts to ensure all ISEQ 20 companies meet the 30% gender balance target for their boards.

On gender and pay, the committee will be aware of the Gender Pay Gap Information Act and the obligation to publish information relating to remuneration by gender. The Department's report on the gender pay gap was published last December. The report records the gender pay gap in the Department is 10.56%. This mainly reflects the greater proportion of women in junior grades and the high proportion of women availing of part-time work options. The Department has a gender parity in middle management and senior grades and this ensures a strong pipeline of top female talent. My Department is strongly committed to ensuring both men and women are represented highly at all levels and have equal inclusion in senior level roles. We are committed to reducing the pay gap further through focused policies such as our maternity leave and blended working policies.

The Department is also committed to the broader equality, diversity and inclusion agenda and expects to publish its equality, diversity and inclusion strategy during 2023.

In the area of administration, the Revised Estimate also provides increased funding to meet the administration costs of the Department. The need for this funding arises from the significant increase in demand for important services such as our employment rights service. The deployment of additional staffing resources has delivered significant improvements in the operation of this service and it is important this progress is maintained.

In addition, the increased administration funding provided in the Estimate will help to progress ongoing policy and legislative work in areas such as climate action, digitalisation, employment rights, trade, company law, competition, consumer protection, etc.

I hope this rather long introduction gives the committee an outline of the particulars of my Department’s Estimate and what we intend to deliver for the moneys being provided to the various programmes. I am just back from the west coast of the United States where we met 14 or 15 tech companies that have a combined footprint here of close to 24,000 jobs. We were trying to get a sense from the sector of where things are going this year. I am happy to take any questions on the Estimates or on anything else members may have questions about.

I thank the Minister. We will commence with programme A.

I welcome the Minister, who is before the committee for the first time, as well as his team. I thank him for the overview he has given. I apologise but I have to leave fairly sharpish because I have a meeting in my constituency that I cannot change.

I wish to touch on the WRC and the HSA. The Minister may or may not be aware that in 2006, under a national wage agreement entitled Toward 2016, which was intended to be a ten-year agreement, the number of WRC inspectors was to increase to 90. The figures the Minister has given show there are currently 63, with seven to be recruited. That gives 70, which is 20 short of the agreement. Have retirements been factored into that? As I said, with 70 inspectors, we are already short. There is a problem with the WRC, which I am sure the Minister is aware of, namely, it takes a long time to get a case in and heard. That is causing a particular difficulty.

Likewise, is there a target for the HSA? An increase in the budget is welcome but what is needed is additional personnel to do these investigations. We know that when the HSA does investigations its work is absolutely fantastic.

However, there are a lot of announced inspections that should be unannounced. There are a lot of inspections that do not happen for a long period of time simply because the personnel are not there. Is the figure of 90 inspectors gone? Does the Department have any intention of going back to that figure, which was agreed with the Government in 2006? In the intervening time we have seen the workforce grow. With regard to the Health and Safety Authority is there a target for the number of inspectors? With regard to the WRC has the Minister factored in potential retirements?

On the WRC, as of 31 January it had 63 inspectors working in the field. It is actively recruiting to fill seven inspector vacancies. That will get us up to 70.

It does if nobody retires this year.

Regional recruitment campaigns for inspectors have concluded. Three more inspectors are due to be assigned to the WRC in the near future. A further recruitment campaign is intended for the third quarter. We will have an ongoing rolling recruitment campaign. If a commitment was made to get to 90 inspectors that should continue to be the target but it will happen incrementally. We will have recruitment campaigns. We need to be recruiting more than are retiring.

As far as I am aware, the target of 90 inspectors is still where we want to get to. We will get to 70 very shortly and we will have another recruitment campaign that will increase the figure further. We can follow it out through the year. We are pretty transparent on this.

It is just to know that in order to get to having 90 inspectors, recruitment will have to be in excess of the number of retirements and then some.

Absolutely. We need net increases and not just more people coming in.

It is the same in the Health and Safety Authority. There is a target for the WRC but there is nothing for the Health and Safety Authority. Is there a target for it or is it part of an ongoing recruitment campaign?

With regard to the Health and Safety Authority the current headcount is 232 full-time equivalent staff. I will see if I can get a figure on it.

I am happy if the Minister wants to send it to me afterwards. I just want to know whether there is a target.

We have had noticeable increases in the HSA and the Workplace Relations Commission in order to have more staff in both and more inspections so they can perform their remit. I will give the Deputy all of the data we have on them.

That is fantastic. The number of inspectors should be stepped up to keep pace with the number of people in work. This would seem pretty logical to me but it does not happen unfortunately. It is something that should happen. If we think back to 2006 when the figure was 90, there are lot more people in work now. I fully appreciate all that happened between 2006 and now.

It is helpful to put on the record the extent of the work of the HSA. Last year it carried out more than 11,000 workplace inspections in all sectors of the economy. More than 8,800 proactive inspections were completed under general occupational safety and health legislation. There were well over 1,100 proactive inspections under the Chemicals Act and the transport of dangerous goods by roads regulation. Almost 600 reactive inspections were completed. There is a lot going on out there but it is true that as we have more businesses and more people are in employment, we need to make sure the regulatory resources keep pace in terms of increasing constantly the number of inspections and the response time to complaints when they come in.

Nobody, and certainly not me, is disputing the good work done by the HSA. I just have an interest in it doing more. I have a number of questions but I do not want to take all of the time. I will ask a few and I can come back in if I have time.

I want to ask about the business support schemes to which the Minister alluded in his remarks. For the five schemes that are delivering grants and loans more than €3 billion was announced. Since the announcement some of the schemes have been delayed, some have not been commenced and some have very low levels of application. My figures are for last Friday and they show that only €24.3 million in support has been issued thus far under the Ukraine credit guarantee scheme and the other schemes. Will the Minister indicate whether there are issues, particularly with regard to the temporary business energy support scheme, TBESS, and the Ukraine enterprise crisis scheme? What is being done to make them more accessible and impactful?

This afternoon and in recent days I have had meetings with people on the other end of these schemes. The feedback to me is that there is an issue with regard to the paperwork. I was told by one person that in order to be able to access the scheme some people feel they need to hire an accountant. That is an additional expense they cannot afford. They are concerned about the schemes. The money is there and the announcement was made for a big figure, which I know always plays very well in announcements. I wonder whether the Minister has identified what the problems are. In his remarks the Minister alluded to the fact there is a problem. We can all see that. Has he identified what the problem is? Has he identified how it will be addressed? One would have thought, in particular arising out of the past three years that people trying to do business have had, that there would be a high level of take-up of the schemes but there has not been. What work is being done to identify the issues?

The big outlier is the TBESS scheme. I would be interested to hear what other members of the committee have to say on this. There was an announcement in the budget last year that up to €1.3 billion could be assigned to the scheme. More than €650 million of this was assigned for last year and €650 million for this year. The scheme was only launched in late November. Clearly, for whatever reason, and I am happy to go into the reasons, there was nothing like the take-up that we expected at the end of last year. It was only a fraction of the allocated estimate. This year so far the scheme has paid out €26 million of more than €600 million allocation. There are approximately €31 million worth of approvals in total, including the €26 million paid out.

Just under 23,000 companies have registered for this. We thought the figure would be ten times that. We have engaged a lot with the sector. I have done so, as has the Department of Finance. We have also worked with the Minister, Deputy Catherine Martin, on her sector because we expected an awful lot of the hospitality sector would be affected, including hotels, restaurants, pubs and guesthouses. There is consultation happening between the Departments that is being led by the Department of Finance. We have already agreed to extend beyond the end of January the timeline for applying for support for last September. When this was launched initially businesses could apply up to four months after the month concerned. The qualification criteria, as Deputy O'Reilly knows, was that the cost of the energy bill needed to be 50% higher than last year and people could claim back 40% of the difference in terms of the extra cost. If we were to change the thresholds we would have to change primary legislation, which would take some time.

There are things we may be able to do without primary legislation in the short term to extend deadlines and potentially apply some other flexibility. This is in discussion at present. The first thing we have to do is understand from businesses and representative bodies why the uptake has been as low as it has been. It is likely the following could have contributed to the current low take-up. According to a recent IBEC survey, many businesses are still in contracts with energy suppliers and will not be impacted until the first quarter of this year. As such, they may not have qualified yet for the thresholds. Approximately one quarter of the registered businesses have been approved. Upon being approved the business needs to regularise its tax matters.

This may cause a lag in payments. In other words-----

There is a need for a tax clearance certificate.

Exactly. For some companies, this seems to have been a problem. The first Revenue deadline was the end of January for September 2022 claims. Some businesses may have waited until the new year and closer to the deadline to register. In other words, people were waiting until the last minute and they were focusing on other things.

There was a big increase in the last week of January in the number of applications. We have extended the deadline to allow other submissions to come in. The guidelines on Revenue's website for see TBESS were 121 pages long. This seems to have been a bit intimidating for some small businesses that would potentially have had to pay an accountant to come in and put the applications together for them, which seems to have been a concern. We are going to see if it is possible to simplify this process. Feedback from businesses suggests that we will see a surge in those applying. Businesses would have been working through the busy Christmas period and delayed this type of bureaucratic form-filling process. Potentially, there may be confusion around the climate toolkit. Feedback in this regard suggests that some businesses thought they had-----

To have the whole lot done-----

-----before applying. As a result, we are going through all these issues systematically. We have a team working on this issue. I suspect the same is happening in the Department of Finance and other Departments.

We do have time. We have extended the deadline. It should also not be forgotten that people can apply right up into June and July for the month of February.

No, I understand how it works-----

Having said that, there is a huge gap between €31 million and €650 million.

This is something we need to address proactively, but a great deal of work is going on to do that. The first decision that needs to be made is whether we extend this scheme beyond February. The second concerns what flexibilities can be introduced to make it easier to apply without having to change primary legislation. Third, is the question of whether we have to change primary legislation in terms of the qualifying criteria for this scheme or if we must design something different. All these questions are being teased through.

I am sure people will appreciate quick answers. By way of example, I was recently speaking to someone who had their bills estimated. At the end, therefore, because no one obviously went out during Covid-19, when it was possible to submit a reading, the resulting charge came as one bill rather than a whole series. This made it very difficult for this person to engage with the forms. The 121 pages do not help in this regard. Many companies are looking at this and thinking that if they have to go and get an accountant that they will be spending money they do not have to potentially get money they need but potentially may not be in a position to get. I appreciate that this work is being done on this scheme but I emphasise that the quicker this information gets out and the decisions made the better. Regarding what can be done, immediate feedback regarding the practicalities, I am sure, concerns whether tweaks can be made. I respect the fact that primary legislation is a different kettle of fish, but whatever can be done in the intervening time should be.

I will ask one more question, if that is okay.

To say one more thing on TBESS, concerning people outside Dublin, especially, there would have been a lot of feedback from hotels and restaurants relying on oil for heating systems or on liquefied natural gas, LNG, that is not on the grid. In other words, these premises do not receive a bill like they would from an electricity provider-----

It is not metered.

Yes. This is a much more difficult for Revenue to administer. It is a gap in the scheme and this is something we are looking at. I do not want to overpromise that we can deliver this, but we are talking to the Revenue to see whether this is possible because it is a major part of the energy costs, particularly for many hotels around the country that are not on the gas grid but that have a large gas tank at the back or have kerosene, for example, providing their heating. These premises are effectively getting no support for these energy costs and this is an aspect we would like to address. To be honest, though, from an implementation point of view, this is easier said than done.

I appreciate that. This is an issue I raised with the Minister's predecessor, so we would welcome progress on this and I understand that the Minister is not overpromising.

Turning to page 56 of the overview, this refers to the retail sector and highlights its importance to the economy, which is welcome. Unfortunately, though, we know this sector has suffered several body blows during the last 24 months. I refer to the tactical liquidation of Debenhams, the closure of Top Shop, what happened with the Arcadia Group and, most recently, Argos. During this time, the Minister's predecessor, and that of the current Minister of State, Deputy Richmond, articulated the view that retail was simply changing. I do not appreciate this view at all. I think we should fight for these jobs and for the presence of retail on our main streets as bringing a bit of life and vibrancy there.

Notwithstanding that the landscape in this regard is changing, I would like to hear the Minister's views regarding establishing a task force on the future of retail, to include representatives of trade unions, employer bodies, local authorities and others to come up with a detailed plan on how we might salvage bricks-and-mortar traditional retail jobs. This is something the Mandate trade union had sought and other representative groups would be very much up for having this conversation as well.

We already have something very close to this, in that we have a retail forum-----

-----working group. Under its auspices, three working groups were convened last year to drive actions in the retail forum work programme, the Future of Retail, which is effectively what the Deputy is talking about. These include one examining the town centre first policy and the night-time economy. The focus is on considering whether the supports are relevant, the policy implementation of the town centre policy and the report from the night-time economy task force. The second working group is around digitalisation and skills, focusing on driving the digitisation of the sector and working to support skills development in terms of moving to selling online, as well as complimenting what the retail sector is doing on the main streets. The third working group is on the green transition. There is, therefore, a structure in place. I would be interested in hearing feedback as to whether the retail sector thinks this structure is sufficient. I am not saying I am ruling anything out, but I would like to try to work the structure that exists to get reports and recommendations back that we can then act on, rather than setting up a new structure that duplicates what is happening already in this regard. Again, this is a subject I would happily come back to the committee to talk about if people think this is not sufficient.

I ask Deputy O'Reilly to be very quick.

Regarding the underspend for the IDA and Enterprise Ireland, was there a specific reason for this underspending of about 18% and 23%, respectively, in these agencies' capital allocations last year, which was up from 2020? Obviously, the Minister and the agencies must be careful about investments, but what is driving the fact that they are underspending?

Most of this is schemes.

As we came out of some of the schemes previously linked to Covid-19 supports, companies very much came out of the mindset of looking to draw down funds.

There were other schemes then that eventually did not get the take-up we thought they might have. I think this explains most of the underspending. We have carried over much of the capital underspending into this year and this money must be spent first. This is how the carryover works. The IDA has a clear plan in terms of land acquisitions and development. For good strategic reasons, particularly outside of Dublin-----

This is in the first-----

-----quarter of this year. I think we will be able to follow this closely, because from my perspective I want to ensure we are spending everything we have budgeted for. This is why TBESS is such an outlier that has skewed all the numbers, last year and this year. We will, though, try to address this during the year. In the other areas, however, when we add up the number of schemes that were modestly underspent, those figures add up. I am not sure whether on the IDA side there were some land acquisitions that carried over to this year from last year-----

That will be spent.

I can get a note for the Deputy on this matter if that would be helpful.

Yes, that would be helpful. I thank the Minister.

I thank Deputy O'Reilly. I call Deputy Stanton.

There is so much going on and so much positive stuff happening that it is hard to keep up. Are we sticking with programme A and then coming back to programmes B and C?

Can we not just throw them all in together? That is what Deputy O'Reilly did.

We will do that.

We have just done all three with Deputy O'Reilly.

We will do all three.

One of the things I am interested in is regional enterprise development. IDA Ireland expects to spend €60 million on development property solutions in different areas across the country this year and has three advanced facilities. Are they buildings that IDA Ireland has designed and built in Monaghan, Dundalk and Sligo? It is expected that four further facilities will be delivered this year in Carlow, Limerick, Waterford and Athlone. Could the Minister provide some more information about them? How did IDA Ireland decide where to locate these facilities? Did it carry out research across the country? Did it pick spots with no facilities?

This committee has done a lot of work on remote, blended and hybrid working. This has all kinds of advantages for people in that they do not have to travel long distances to work yet it appears that a lot of IDA Ireland-supported companies are not in this space. In other words, they still insist on bringing people long distances into a centre. What discussions have taken place between these companies and IDA Ireland in the context of developing remote working hubs on a larger scale than the smaller ones we have seen, with three or four hot desks, in provincial towns? In this scenario, people would not have to travel and their quality of life would improve dramatically. Are the Department and IDA Ireland, and, possibly, Enterprise Ireland to a lesser extent, looking at this? It would cut down on pollution, travel time and stress, improve people's quality of life and benefit the regions. People would not have to travel to cities, which causes the congestion and parking issues that the Minister for Transport is giving out about. Could the Minister reflect on this and come back to us? I am thinking of Youghal in my constituency where people leave every day to go to Cork city and come back in the evening. I have been saying for quite some time that it is an area where there could be a pilot and possibly IDA Ireland might build some large remote working hub and people could work there rather than having to travel long distances. When the Minister talks about innovation and new initiatives, it might be something that might be worth considering.

I am interested in the new construction technology centre in Galway. Funding of €500,000 will be provided. The total amount will be €5 million over a number of years. Perhaps the Minister might give an overview of the kind of work being undertaken there. Obviously, it is very innovative.

What was that one?

It is the new construction centre. Perhaps the right name is the construction technology centre. I think it is a collaboration between NUI Galway, TCD, UCD, UCC and the Irish Green Building Council. Could the Minister provide more detail on that because it is something in which I am quite interested, as, I am sure, are many other members?

I am quite happy to see the programme established when I was in the Department of Justice, namely, the Balance for Better Business initiative, do so well. Has the Minister any targets for where he sees that going? It is particularly important given the gender equality concerns in the workplace and targets nationally. The target in 2022 was 30% and the outturn was 36%. If 36% was the 2022 outturn, does this show progress? Are we going in the right direction?

Enterprise Ireland and the LEOs are doing fantastic work, but one of the things I would like the LEOs to do is to be more progressive. They are doing so well but some people still do not know what they do and there are some gaps where they are not physically present. They are doing amazing work. I have had feedback from small businesses that have benefited hugely from LEOs. Perhaps there are areas where they could open or hold clinics. I said this to Enterprise Ireland when I met its representatives, and they were quite interested.

Regarding property, and I am being parochial here, more than once I have raised the fact that east Cork has one of the largest IDA Ireland sites in the country. I refer to the old Amgen site that has been sitting there fully serviced for the past 15 years. It has cost the taxpayer a fortune to provide water, electrical and wastewater infrastructure. The site was levelled and developed, and then Amgen decided it could not go ahead with it and it has been sitting there ever since. IDA Ireland has tried to entice various companies to set up there but without success. The reason is because road access is virtually non-existent. The N25 needs upgrading. Has the Department looked at this? I know there is a dearth of sites like this in the south. It is probably one of the best sites in the country if not in Europe with a rail link at one end, a motorway at the other, an airport a few kilometres up the road and a sea port and two universities not far away yet it is sitting there idle. Can the Minister explain why this is the case? What did it cost to develop in the first place? It is owned by IDA Ireland. There are plans to have a back entrance but that will not work because it will bring traffic through Carrigtwohill. Are there other sites like this around the country that need initiatives that we need to look at? It is a disgrace that this site has been sitting there for so long. I know the county council planned to upgrade the road but this was halted at the end of 2021 even though about €1.5 million had been spent on it. The region is crying out for sites like this and yet that site is sitting there idle with weeds growing. Could the Minister comment on that? I could go on - there is so much in this - but I will let colleagues in.

Regarding regional enterprise development and what IDA Ireland, the regional property programme will see 19 advanced building solutions delivered in regional locations across Ireland during the lifetime of IDA Ireland's current strategy. Three buildings have been constructed. They include an advanced technology building for Monaghan, an advanced technology solution for Dundalk, an advanced office building for Sligo and Digital Manufacturing Ireland in Limerick, which was formerly known as the advanced manufacturing centre. It is a national strategic initiative to support the Irish manufacturing base to accelerate and adopt digital technologies across its value chains. Not only is it buying land banks, it is putting strategic buildings in place in parts of the country where we believe this is justified and necessary with regard to balanced regional development but also in strategic areas that will attract private sector interest. I am glad to say that it is working. IDA Ireland is on site in four buildings due for completion at the end of the first quarter of 2023 in Carlow, Limerick, Waterford and Athlone. The next phase of properties in the programme is under way, with planning secured for properties in Athlone, Sligo, Galway, Mullingar and Cavan. Two properties in Letterkenny and Drogheda are being prepared for the planning system. The remaining four properties in Kerry, Longford, Oranmore and Castlebar are dependent on successful site selection, along with the appropriate design, planning and procurement. There is a rolling programme at different stages of development.

That is what the funding is for. Members will note that there are no sites in Dublin and Cork. That is because of the strength of those parts of Ireland in attracting foreign direct investment from a historical point of view.

IDA Ireland's approach to remote working is guided by the national strategy for remote working and the ongoing initiatives in this area by my Department, among others, in the delivery of Future Jobs Ireland and the Department of Rural and Community Development's new rural development policy. The agency is engaging with clients to identify opportunities to promote the uptake of remote working with a view to supporting regional job creation and so on. In the meetings I have had in the past few days, every company talked about remote working. For technology companies or pharmaceutical companies that are in a competitive environment, to attract skills it is simply a reality now that part of the consideration and mix is facilitating flexible working or remote working. The number of office buildings we visited where people were working there two or three days a week but working from home on Mondays and Fridays or Mondays, Fridays and Wednesdays was interesting. It is totally different from where we were a few years ago when the emphasis was on building large clusters of skills and people in high-end offices and so on. In fact, some of the companies we met have whole divisions that are based on remote input. There are managers for different sectors of the business in the head office and then a manager who is managing the remote section of the business. It is being factored into business planning now in a major way. That is no different in the public sector. In my Department and in the Department I have just come from it is the norm that people would be asked to be in the office two or three days a week and then work from home for the rest of the working week. A number of the companies I have been speaking would also sometimes allow people to work remotely for three weeks of the month and then come in for the fourth week. That is to get people sparking off each other, particularly where there is a need for new design, creativity or whatever. An awful lot of software engineers are simply working from home and then they come and meet whenever the teams need to. This is the new reality.

Everyone I have spoken to, whether Departments or large companies, is experimenting with this at the moment and trying to get the balance right between attracting talent and offering flexible working arrangements to support quality of life and family-friendly work policies while, at the same time, trying to maintain productivity and competitiveness. It is the new economy and we need to get used to it. It is brilliant for Ireland because it allows people to work in Dublin city centre while living on the Dingle Peninsula. If someone is good enough at what they do and is contributing to the company, remote working provides that flexibility. However, there are dangers to this because someone could also be working for a company in Dublin city centre while in the south of France. The internationalisation of remote working is a risk and that has all sorts of knock-on consequences in ensuring workers rights, workplace standards, taxation and a whole range of other issues. A lot of companies, particularly multinationals, are trying to get their heads around how all of this comes together. Make no mistake: remote working and flexible working are here to stay. It is a question of how we manage it in a way that keeps Ireland competitive and ensures workplaces, whether at home or on a factory floor, can work for the companies concerned.

Regarding the new construction centre, the updated housing action plan includes as a priority action 13.1 to "Define and commence the Construction Technology Centre’s work programme", which is now complete. A medium- to long-term research programme has been defined by the centre, which will engage with industry challenges arising in the delivery of Housing for All targets and more broadly with the national strategic outcomes defined in the national development plan. In simple terms, this is our top universities working together to try to make sure we are at the sharp end of innovation when it comes to building houses that are the right quality and can be built faster and in a more efficient and sustainable way. We need to build between 40,000 and 50,000 houses per year indefinitely. We need to be using the best materials and, where possible, we need to construct properties off-site and then crane them in and assemble them on-site. That does not require as many people. We can build energy-efficient modern homes that are warm, of decent quality and consistent with all the regulations that are required and we can do it faster. We need our universities to help us get there. That is essentially what this is about. We need to help fund that as well.

We are making good progress on the gender side. I mentioned some of the targets earlier such as Balance for Better Business, which Deputy Stanton was very involved in. I think he chaired the committee that agreed to get that project under way. It is working and it is a credit to him that it is because it is delivering quite impressive results in increasing the percentage of women in positions of influence in business leadership in Ireland.

We need to talk a bit more about the role of the LEOs because their role is now expanding beyond companies of ten people or fewer. They can now engage with companies of up to 50 people. That is a big change for them. It is going to open up enterprise supports for an awful lot more companies that do not qualify for EI mentorship and grants and so on. There have been calls from this committee and others to set up an agency to fill that gap between LEOs and EI. What we are doing now is expanding the remit of LEOs and I think they are able to do it. They have shown the capacity to do that. The Deputy asked how the additional €4 million in funding will be allocated between the framework and the small firms investment in energy efficiency schemes. That is part of the work of the LEOs are doing now. We will probably put more and more money into local enterprise offices. They are going to get bigger and bigger as operations and will probably grow faster than Enterprise Ireland or IDA Ireland, which also need to grow. There is a gap in supports for those companies that have fallen between the stools of EI and the LEOs in the past. I would be interested if the committee has views on this. If it wanted to produce a report or anything we would certainly look at that in a very constructive way.

I know the Amgen site well. I drive past it all the time. It is frustrating. All I can say is that I have spoken to IDA Ireland about it because it is such a strategic national site. It is not just a Cork thing. We are as ambitious as ever to try to get a big project there. A portion of that site is being used as an electricity converter station, linked to the interconnection with France, but here are still approximately 140 acres or so on that site right next to the main road. It is a gem of a site and we will do our damnedest to get a super industry in there.

I was going to say we have lots of sites around the country but we do not have a lot of sites of that scale in locations as strategic as what has become known as the Amgen site. Amgen has a big presence in Ireland, just not there. We will continue to try to get the right fit for that site.

If we can get a company that wants to move into that site, I think the road infrastructure will probably move quickly. It is a little like what happened with Kerry Group's headquarters in Kildare, where the State put road infrastructure in place to facilitate the scale of that site. One of the ways of getting the road infrastructure moving quickly would be to have a company that wants to spend hundreds of millions of euro or maybe more on developing that site, and the State would have to do its bit in terms of road access to make that happen. I can contribute to that debate through working with IDA Ireland. If we could get that interest, I think the road infrastructure would follow.

I might make a few observations. Given other members are waiting, I do not expect any response now. I acknowledge that the employment performance is outstanding. That 50,000 jobs have been created by IDA Ireland, Enterprise Ireland and the LEOs is an extraordinary performance, although I recognise it will be impossible to sustain it.

I think the explanatory material we get with the Estimates could be improved. I would like to see more detail of regional impact. The Minister's Department and its agencies have put a lot of effort into developing regional enterprise plans and they are having a positive impact. We should see some measure of their performance because a genuine concern relates to ensuring the attempt at regional balance is delivering. In my view, it has done well and IDA Ireland, in particular, has shifted its ground.

The second area on which we ought to see performance data relates to the various loan schemes that have been put in place. They are out there and we should try to see some meaningful data being reported to us on how they are performing in terms of impact. Another area where I would like to see better data relates to the performance of startups. We have put a lot of eggs into the basket of high-potential startups, HPSUs, and the competitive start fund. I believe that is the correct approach, but these are undertaken on the basis they will deliver jobs within a certain period. I think we should track that systematically and see not just the number that have been approved, given that tends to involve just picking the 80 best and investing in them, but also the impact of the policy over time.

We need to be alert in this area to companies running into difficulty at the moment for all sorts of reasons, such as Covid, energy costs and so on. We should get fairly regular reports to this committee on the impact on small business from the small business rescue scheme. There is a concern in this committee about whether companies getting into difficulties are getting reasonable accommodations regarding rents that may have been fixed at the wrong time, bills from various providers or Revenue withdrawing some of its warehousing. It would be good to see that sort of qualitative and quantitative reporting made available to the committee and perhaps then being reflected in the Revised Estimates Volume. That would be a more meaningful indicator of the impact of the Department.

Having worked at the Department, I know that the progress made since 2011 by Irish enterprise and Irish workers, supported by the agencies and the Department, is truly extraordinary and deserves to be acknowledged. When I was there, things were not quite as rosy, and the superhuman effort put in by people to make an impact, whether at home or abroad, from within the public service and its agencies was extraordinary. We should not go without recognising that considerable effort was put in, and the rewards speak for themselves.

The economy created 300,000 jobs last year. That is an extraordinary performance given some of the headwinds, uncertainty and pressures businesses have been under. The combined number of those jobs that relate to agency clients, whether IDA Ireland, Enterprise Ireland or the LEOs, equated to about 50,000 additional jobs. I have a note that breaks this down county by county. For all three of those agency clients, more than half of those jobs are outside of Dublin.

The Deputy is correct. Perhaps if we could give more precise data, the committee could be more targeted in its questioning and we could look at areas that might not be working as well as the ones that are. We constantly have to try to get better at this.

As for startups, a big part of the new enterprise strategy, which was published in December, sought to support entrepreneurship and startups more effectively and report on that, to help small to medium-sized businesses make the transition to become medium to large businesses, and to find a way of encouraging them not to sell out at that point but to grow and become international multinationals. This was a big theme in recent days during my visit to the US. The Irish talent in that part of the United States in the senior management of multiple companies is quite extraordinary. We would love to have those people here building businesses rather than them having to go abroad to do it. Nevertheless, I take all the points the Deputy made.

On the HPSUs, Enterprise Ireland's ambition is to increase the number of high-potential startups over the lifetime of that strategy, which is out to 2024, by 20%. It is funded and is aggressively going after supporting high-potential startups. Even so, I take the point that this is not about picking the top 50, funding them and making them work. A further 200 underneath that will probably need mentoring and support, and at times funding or links to venture capital, VC, or whatever the case may be, and I think we can get better at that. Other countries do this better than Ireland and we need to learn from them.

I welcome the Minister. Does he yet have any data on whether any data centres applied for the TBESS?

No, I just have the overall numbers. If a data centre were applying, there are ceilings whereby a company cannot get more than €10,000 per month under the TBESS at the moment. The answer to the question is that I do not know. I do not have a list of the 22,000 or so companies that have applied.

To clarify, a data centre could get €30,000 if it had three meter point reference numbers, MPRNs, could it not?

Yes, absolutely.

When the Minister's predecessor was appearing before the committee and we were talking about this, he mentioned work on a future scheme for high energy users, which would be separate from the TBESS. Has there been progress on that? Is it still in the pipeline?

That is the scheme for companies that have been impacted by the war in Ukraine in terms of the cost of their energy.

A total of 14 companies have applied for that scheme: one in each of counties Cavan, Cork, Donegal, Louth, Mayo, Meath, Offaly, Westmeath and Wicklow, and two in counties Sligo and Dublin. So far, there is a grant aid total of just under €3.9 million. It is not a huge amount of money but the individual supports to those companies can be up to half a million euro. TBESS is a much broader scheme with much lower ceilings. This scheme is for high energy users whose income has reduced by 50% in a year and, from memory, there is a qualification criterion that 3% of the company's turnover must be linked to energy costs. I will happily stand corrected in that regard. Apologies; my official tells me it is a 15% reduction in the company's profit and 3% of its turnover must be linked to energy costs.

Have any data centres applied to the scheme?

I have given the Deputy the information I have-----

The Minister referred to 14 companies. Are any of those companies data centres?

Not that we are aware of. I do not have the names of the companies - even if I did, I would not be providing that information - I just have the data in respect of their locations. The companies in question had to meet the criteria.

I do not doubt that they had to meet the criteria; my problem is that data centres are not excluded from meeting the criteria.

I do not see why they should be excluded, to be honest.

I do not think Government policy should be to give public money to huge energy users. We should not be encouraging the extra use of energy which makes it more difficult for us to meet our climate targets. If energy usage keeps expanding - these users are the drivers of the increase in energy usage - we will never be able to transition to 100% renewable energy. That is why, as a matter of policy, the Government should not be giving public money to huge corporations.

We have had this debate on the role of data centres in the economy. They are an important part of the future of the economy, including how we manage data in a way that can reduce our carbon footprint to ensure the economy is as efficient as possible. The challenge for us is to power data centres with clean energy in the future. That is why we are investing so heavily in offshore wind and we will see, in effect, a clean energy revolution that can allow the economy to grow, including data centres where necessary. We should not hide away from that. Economies are now driven by data - how it is stored, managed and used. Ireland should not be excluding itself in that regard.

Ireland is not excluding itself; rather, it is the dumping ground for the data of the world's multinationals. There is definitely no danger that it is excluding itself. We are wildly out of proportion in that regard.

In case there is any misunderstanding, that is the Deputy's terminology; it is not the terminology of the Government.

Okay. I refer to European works councils and the Commission infringement proceedings. I hope the Minister will be appearing before the joint committee on that matter. We had a meeting yesterday at which all the experts agreed that Ireland is in breach. I do not expect the Minister to say he believes we are in breach or whatever, but can he provide information on what is happening in that regard?

I cannot do that as I do not have a note on it but I will happily revert to the Deputy if he has specific questions. I was not here yesterday and was not aware the joint committee was to hold a meeting on the matter. I do not want to move onto an area on which I do not have a note.

That is no problem.

I do not think it is directly linked to the Estimates anyway.

The provision of metrics in the overview is a very good idea. There do not seem to be metrics relating to the Workplace Relations Commission, WRC, or the Health and Safety Authority, HSA, however. The metrics provided are all about creating investment, jobs and so on, and that is great, but why are there no metrics relating to the WRC or the HSA?

There are metrics in respect of staffing numbers. We discussed them earlier. We have committed to increasing the number of inspectors linked to the WRC so that they can do their job effectively, and likewise with the HSA. We are increasing the budget of both agencies to increase their capacity to meet their obligations. I referred to the number of inspections, which I suspect are probably the highest we have seen. In terms of the targets for the HSA, the main 2023 targets are as follows: 10,000 proactive inspections for occupational safety and health; 920 proactive inspections relating to the Chemicals Act and transportation of dangerous goods by road; 600 reactive inspections, which is occupational safety and health, as well as the Chemicals Act and transport of dangerous goods; 2,000 market surveillance assessments; to increase new users of BeSMART to bring the cumulative number to 96,000; 15 new accreditation decisions; and 380 accreditation decision renewals. There is no shortage of target setting there in terms of setting metrics for the HSA.

There is a big list of metrics at the end of each section. Why are the metrics for the HSA and the WRC not included there? Why are they just in the body of the text?

They are here. I have just read them out to the Deputy in terms of the targets for the HSA.

Sure. Maybe I am not being clear. On page 64 of the overview, for example, there is a list of published metrics relating to jobs and enterprise development. There is a series of metrics and I was wondering why-----

It is probably a matter of not having enough space to include that information. I have just read out targets relating to the HSA. I am sure there is a similar series of metrics and targets for the WRC. If it is helpful to the committee, we can provide that information.

There is nothing hidden here.

On page 64 there is reference to IDA Ireland winning 249 new investment projects in 2021. It then refers to winning five environmental sustainable investments. Are the 15 part of the 249? Does that mean the remainder of the 249 projects are not environmentally sustainable? What is the import of that?

I am being told they are additional. I presume they are large-scale energy efficiency projects. They are companies that are specifically investing in projects that are primarily about energy efficiency. We will see a lot more of that in the years ahead, by the way. It reflects the fact that Ireland is now starting to be seen as a country where climate and environmental technologies are being developed - which is a good thing - as well as the industries that have performed so well in recent years, such as pharma, tech or whatever else. That is my understanding.

On unionisation, there was an interesting article in the Business Post on Sunday about tech workers seeking to unionise and join the Financial Services Union in the context of the job losses and so on. It would be a good idea for tech workers to get into unions to try to protect their interests. The rate of workers covered by collective bargaining is very low, at approximately one in four. There is an EU directive on adequate minimum wages but potentially the most important part of the directive is where it outlines that in countries with low collective bargaining rates, that is, where fewer than 80% of workers are covered, the government of the state needs to work with unions, employers and so on to try to bring that up to 80%. Are there plans to do so here? How will it be achieved?

First, the job losses that we are seeing across the technology sector are in companies that in most cases, certainly those I have spoken to, will be supporting those who are losing their jobs way beyond their statutory obligations in terms of financial support. That is a good thing. By and large, these are companies that can afford to do that. They should be looking after their workers in that way and, I think, they are. Likewise, with Argos, my understanding is that the company is going beyond what it is required by law in terms of statutory responsibilities around pay.

In terms of the current status of the other issues that the Deputy raised from an EU perspective, there is a high-level working group. It was established by the former Tánaiste and Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment, Deputy Varadkar, in March 2021 to review the collective bargaining landscape in Ireland. They are due to make recommendations for improvements. Their final report was published last October. The group's recommendations rest on its recognition of the continued necessity to respect the autonomy of social partners in collective bargaining contexts. They also reflect the shared consensus that some existing industrial relations mechanisms already recognised as proportionate and necessary need improvement by means of statutory reform. The Department will now review that report, formulate proposals for its implementation in consultation with social partners and bring a memorandum to Government on implementation before the end of this year. The enterprise sub-group of the labour employer economic forum, LEEF, which is the group that has been doing that work, will oversee implementation of these recommendations. There is a process under way where we are looking at what we are required to do but there is a lot of consultation, as one would expect, given the presence of multinationals in Ireland.

I thank the Chair. I welcome the Minister and congratulate him on his new portfolio.

I digress for a minute - Deputy Stanton has left the room - regarding the possible development of the old Amgen site in Carrigtwohill. I would say that is still the cardiac pathway for emergency heart attack patients out of University Hospital Waterford. When that site was previously being discussed, and when IKEA was mentioned there, the issue of traffic disruption was brought up. All I would say is if it is Government policy to actively pursue that site, we had better actively pursue a 24-7 cardiac care service for the south east.

On TBESS, the Minister outlined €650 million allocated, 23,000 businesses applying and €26 million paid to date, and he is asking about the feedback. I can tell the Minister I have had plenty of representations from people trying to access TBESS. The first issue was the difficulty of the application. The people who had got money, I would say, in the main went to professionals and had it done for them. That is what I found. I met a girl last week who is employing 13 people in a bakery and she was nearly crying because she was going home that night to try and do an application. It was coming close to the close-out date and she was at her wit's end. She said that she was on it there for two days trying to access it. We have to take the bureaucracy out of these things. It seems - the Minister will not agree - to have been deliberately made difficult to slow down the applications to it. Plenty of SME companies at this stage have nearly written off being on it.

The Minister mentioned, under the European Regional Development Fund, ERDF, funding of €15.5 million. There are to be three technology streams - a needs-led innovation, a knowledge transfer boost and a fund for the technological universities - and yet the total quantum of funding is €15.5 million. For three programmes, including the new technological universities, TUs, in the country, that is not adequate to do anything. The former Waterford Institute of Technology, WIT, last year, on its own would have taken in €22 million in research funding. I am not sure what that fund can achieve with that quantum of money. It seems incredibly small.

Under the disruptive technologies innovation fund, the Minister highlighted there is a significant tranche of money at €288 million. The Minister outlined that there are 86 collaborative projects involving 321 project partners. How many public sector organisations were involved in applying for that money? I think the Minister included a note that a number of our regulatory agencies were accessing money. It is not a criticism. I am only wondering how much of that is made up of public sector applications as opposed to private SME partnership. Those are my main queries.

I will ask two other questions, if I may. The Digital Services Act, the Minister highlighted, is obviously EU law to combat the proliferation of illegal content online. We are essentially now appointing a co-ordinator later this year, as part of that, to be up and running. Will moderation be a part of that? In other words, will there be some kind of censoring? Is there any sense that the amount of targeting of people, not only in the public domain but in general, and the abusive stuff on the Internet, will come under the remit of this organisation? Will they have any moderation?

I would have brought the following issue up with the Taoiseach, previously, when he was Tánaiste and Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment. I have asked on a number of occasions that Irish Small and Medium Enterprise, ISME, Association be included in the labour employer economic form, LEEF, simply because of the number of firms that it represents and every time the go-to answer is that IBEC is there and IBEC includes the Small Firms Association. We need a separate SME representative community on LEEF, not a subordinate to IBEC, with all due respects. I would ask the Minister to try and see if we can get that done, particularly in light of where the economy is going and the difficulties now for small business SMEs. It is great the foreign direct investment sector and large pharmaceutical sectors are doing so well and that corporation tax receipts are so buoyant but those in the smaller SME sector need to be represent. Deputy Paul Murphy spoke earlier about expanding collective bargaining and I would have a significant concern how that might affect people employing one or two people, such as newsagents, shops, small retailers and small manufacturers. The voices of those people have to be heard and ISME is the best platform to do that. I would ask the Minister to try and see if we can get ISME included within the LEEF.

Is there ever a contribution Deputy Shanahan makes that does not involve 24-7 cardiac care in Waterford?

When we have it achieved, I will not make it anymore.

Fair play to the Deputy. I take it that is the road from Waterford to Cork on the way to the hospital where the Amgen site is. It is not that it is State policy to fill the Amgen site. It is an IDA Ireland-owned site. Like all the IDA Ireland-owned strategic sites, we are trying to get commerce on them and to get multinationals to move in. That is a particularly strategic site because of its location, size and connection to services. If one were to start from scratch, one would spend an awful lot of money to prepare a site for development in the way that particular site has been prepared. That is why it is so strategic. It is why Deputy Stanton raises it with me all the time.

On TBESS, first of all, can I firmly say that this has not been designed to be difficult to save money. We made it clear in the budget last year that up to €1.3 billion could be spent under this scheme split between last year's Estimates and this year's Estimates. It is true that only a fraction of that has been drawn down. We are actively working to understand why. Any scheme that involves spending tens of millions of euro of taxpayers' money has also got to be robust and transparent. Revenue is trying to get the balance right between simplifying the application as much as possible and at the same time getting the information that it needs to make sure that the money is appropriately spent. It is clearly not working in the way that we thought it would and that is why we are reviewing it now in a serious way.

The European Regional Development Fund, ERDF, to be clear, is an €850 million fund by 2027, and it is only getting started. The money that is allocated for this year is on the basis of where these projects are likely to get to in 2023, but it is a very substantial fund over the next four years.

In terms of the disruptive technologies innovation fund, my understanding is all of those projects have to have an SME as part of them.

They often involve a research institute, like a university or some other form of research agency or institute in the State. They are about driving private sector innovation, working with public sector institutions, which is important to point out. On the Digital Services Act and Digital Markets Act, it is only starting to be understood by some just how important this is in respect of Ireland’s role as an EU regulator, as well as a regulator of our own economy, of digital services across the EU. Because of what is called the country of origin principle, under the Digital Services Act, companies which are effectively headquartered in Ireland for their EU operations will be regulated in Ireland for all of their operations across the EU. We need to put the resources and people in place now under the media commission, that is, a digital services co-ordinator and a digital commissioner, to ensure that these bodies are able to do that efficiently. There are timelines, obviously, around that in the months ahead and, ultimately, it has to be fully up and running for all companies by, I believe, February of next year. That is a big project which is under way at the moment from an Irish perspective. It has an Irish impact but also has an international reputational impact on our role across the digital and data space from an EU perspective.

On the LEEF, Deputy Shanahan is correct in that ISME, is not on the LEEF at the moment. The Irish Business Employers Confederation, IBEC, and Chambers Ireland are. ISME is on the National Competitiveness Council. I do not want to respond with a direct answer here to that question on the hoof. I will have a look at it if there is a need for more balance on the LEEF.

There is very much a need for representation from the smaller SME sector.

I also want to keep the LEEF manageable in respect of the number of bodies there interacting with one another. I will take the Deputy’s comments on board and will take a look at it.

I thank the Chair.

I have a few questions myself for the Minister, if that is okay. In respect of funding for regulation and the Corporate Enforcement Authority, it was recently reported that the authority expressed concerns to the Government that in the absence of a bigger budget to finance investigations into white-collar crime, its bark would be seen as bigger than its bite. The budget for this authority was increased by 25% to bring its funding up to €9.7 million. This is, however, over €500,000 short of the €10.265 million the authority has been seeking.

Excuse me, Chairman, but what is he saying the authority is short of, please?

The budget given to the authority was €9.7 million and it was seeking €10.265 million. The authority was essentially saying that it needed that additional funding. Obviously, as a new authority in its first year, does the Minister consider that this funding is sufficient for the authority to carry out its work?

I have other questions, one of which is in respect of InterTradeIreland, the cross-Border body set up under the Good Friday Agreement to promote trade, North and South, where there is no increase in its budget. Did it not look for an increase or was it just not given one?

My other question is that the Minister briefly mentioned Design & Crafts Council of Ireland, which has done great work in supporting craftspeople across Ireland, especially during the pandemic. The council is funded by the Minister’s Department. Over the past week,“Nationwide” carried much coverage of the council, where it was reviewed. I believe the Minister’s Department announced that the council’s funding grew in 2022-23. By what amount did that funding grow, how much is it is intended to grow in the coming years, and how much funding was allocated in 2022? If the Minister does not have these figures to hand, perhaps he might come back to me with these at a later point. The council serves over 3,500 clients, and as I have already said, “Nationwide” made a great report on its work. The council has two new shops at the airports promoting Irish products. Has the council been in touch with the Department in respect of engaging in more of that activity? This seems to be a great initiative for small craft businesses. Could we not spend more on that kind of activity as it supports local jobs?

My final question is highly parochial. I meet many foreign direct investment companies in Limerick, as well as many ordinary companies. They are all on the same page in saying that we need to deliver the Limerick northern distributor road. I do not expect the Minister to know every road in the country but the enterprise parks we have in Limerick at Castletroy and Dooradoyle are now full. The northern distributor road is crucial to opening up the land across the north side of Limerick city and of south-east Clare. I know we are talking here about the national development plan but has the Minister had any discussions with Chambers Ireland on this issue as everybody is in favour of this?

I thank the Chair for his questions. I do not want to get into the northern distributor road debate. I take the point, as there is a similar debate in Galway in respect of ensuring that there are traffic flows that are manageable in and out of the city, and that does impact on the appetite for investment in cities. We need public transport networks which are efficient and work but we also need basic road infrastructure that does not result in bottlenecks in parts of cities. I do not want to give a detailed response on the Limerick northern distributor road because I would need to have a look at that in more detail.

Limerick has had a fairly good year in respect of foreign direct investment.

It has had many visits from the IDA in the past 12 months and the economic story in Limerick is strong at the moment.

It is also missing out on opportunities when we do not have that road infrastructure, and all that involves.

I hear that.

On the Corporate Enforcement Authority, its budget is increasing by a quarter. This is not a small increase. A 25% increase is fairly significant. It may have asked for a little bit more but there is not any organisation which receives 100% of what it asks for. I do not believe there is any danger of the Government being seen as skimping on money for the Corporate Enforcement Authority. It has had a big jump in its budget. It is a new authority but it is essentially taking over the work of a previous strong body. This follows on from increases in previous years, which is also important to mention. That funding will continue to increase. Corporate enforcement is a big deal in Ireland as the economy continues to grow at the pace it is growing at.

On InterTradeIreland, I have been told that the budget increased in the past year and this increased level of funding is being maintained into 2023. As the Deputy knows, I have a great deal of interest in North-South bodies and I hope that as some of the political issues settle down in the months ahead in the context of the relationship North and South, that we can continue to work more with InterTradeIreland. It has been a very difficult time for all-island bodies over the past number of years, with no North-South bodies meeting and, obviously, no functioning institutions in Northern Ireland. This has been a difficult environment but InterTradeIreland has done a particularly good job through that period, particularly in the financial supports it has provided through the Brexit period through the Brexit supports for businesses, predominantly, in the Border counties.

There is an agreed funding ratio of 2:1 with Northern Ireland.

There is a slight way around that also. I met a former Minister of State here before during the term of the previous Dáil. We can fund projects which are done down here, in order that it does not have to be done on a 2:1 basis. The then Minister of State, Mary Mitchell O’Connor, went to InterTradeIreland, found that out and gave it additional money at that time, which was a very worthwhile thing to do then. I know that the ratio is 2:1 and that there is no Assembly or institutions up and running, which we are all aware is a significant problem. We want to see these restored as quickly as possible.

We will continue to stay close to them and support them financially as best we can.

On the Design & Crafts Council, there was a funding increase in the budget in the past year of €1 million and, in 2023, there was a €500,000 increase from the capital carryover. The budget for the council has almost doubled in the past four years. I attended the trade and craft fair held in the RDS a number of weeks ago and it was remarkable in respect of the number of exhibitors and the interest of international buyers. Sometimes, we see craft and design as cottage industries or some such thing. They are a very significant part of Ireland’s economy and of its reputation and brand internationally.

We should take them seriously in terms of their economic contribution. I hope we can do more with them in the next couple of years.

I thank the Minister and his officials for assisting the committee in its consideration of the Revised Estimates.

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