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Select Committee on Enterprise, Trade and Employment díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 14 Feb 2024

Employment (Collective Redundancies and Miscellaneous Provisions) and Companies (Amendment) Bill 2023: Committee Stage

Today, the select committee will consider the Employment (Collective Redundancies and Miscellaneous Provisions) and Companies (Amendment) Bill 2023. At the outset, I thank the members and witnesses for participating in today's committee meeting. Members are required to participate in the meeting either from within the meeting room or, if joining remotely, from within the Leinster House complex only. One member is joining the meeting remotely. Should a division occur, any members who are participating remotely will be required to make their way to the committee meeting room within the normal division time in order to vote, before returning to their original location. Apologies have been received from Deputy Matt Shanahan.

The meeting is being convened for the purposes of considering the Employment (Collective Redundancies and Miscellaneous Provisions) and Companies (Amendment) Bill 2023 which was referred to the select committee by order of the Dáil on 18 November 2023. The purpose of the Bill is to further enhance the protection of employees in a collective redundancy in a way that does not unduly impede enterprises in the conduct of business. It amends the Protection of Employment Act 1977, as amended, which governs collective redundancy rules; provides for the establishment of a statutory employment law review group which will allow for an ongoing assessment of employment and redundancy law to ensure it is fit for purpose; and amends the Companies Act 2014, as amended, to further improve the quality and circulation of information to workers as creditors and ensure remedies for transactional avoidance are more accessible to creditors.

I welcome the Minister of State at the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment, Deputy Neale Richmond, who is accompanied by his officials. No groupings have been applied and all amendments will be discussed individually. I propose we try to complete our Committee Stage consideration of the Bill today. Is that agreed? Agreed. We will now proceed with consideration of the Bill and I invite the Minister of State, Deputy Neale Richmond, to make opening remarks.

May I be associated with the Cathaoirleach's kind words and offer of condolences to Deputy Bruton on the passing of the former Taoiseach, John Bruton? I am grateful to Deputy Bruton and the select committee for making time available to further progress the Employment (Collective Redundancies and Miscellaneous Provisions) and Companies (Amendment) Bill 2023. We had a very good debate on Second Stage in the Dáil just before Christmas and my strong impression at the time was that, in general, Deputies are very supportive of the Bill and I want to see it enacted as soon as possible.

I also thank the Oireachtas committee members who recently met Department officials to discuss the proposed statutory advisory body on employment and redundancy matters, the employment law review group. The discussion was engaging and informative with a particular focus on the balance of the membership and the distinctive roles between the review group and the enterprise and employment sub-group of the Labour Employer Economic Forum. This Bill is an important piece of legislation that will further enhance the protection of employees in a collective redundancy in a way that does not unduly impede enterprises in the conduct of their business. It arises from the commitment in the programme for Government to review whether the legal provision surrounding collective redundancies and the liquidation of companies effectively protect the rights of workers.

The plan of action on collective redundancies following insolvency published in June 2021 and welcomed by the social partners principally addresses matters relating to employment rights and company law and seeks to further supplement the already robust legislative protections and safeguards afforded to employees involved in corporate insolvency. In the development of the plan of action as well as the Bill itself, extensive and productive stakeholder engagement was carried out. This Bill represents the outcome of this engagement and the Department's consideration of reports published pertaining to these matters.

In the development of the Bill, the Department further took into consideration recommendations made by ICTU and which members can see reflected in this Bill. I am aware a number of amendments have been put forward and I thank the Deputies their contributions. Significant progress has already been achieved in delivering on the various actions set out in the plan of action. This Bill marks an important step forward in implementing the key outstanding employment law and company law legislative commitments made and I look forward to our discussion today. Go raibh maith agaibh.

Do members want to speak before we come to the Bill sections? Does anyone have anything they would like to contribute or will we just go through the sections?

No. I have three amendments. I am happy to speak to them as we go along, if that is okay.

That is fine.

Sections 1 to 4, inclusive, agreed to.
SECTION 5

I move amendment No. 1:

In page 6, line 24, after “representatives” to insert “and employees’ recognised trade union”.

I would also like to be associated with the kind remarks made earlier with regard to the recent bereavement suffered by our colleague, Richard, and his family. I apologise in advance if I have to go early as there is a Private Members' motion in the Dáil and I will be speaking on it. However, I think we might get through this business beforehand.

It is my intention to withdraw this amendment but I will bring a similar one forward on Report Stage to be inserted into section 20. The Report Stage amendment will insert: "That when a petition for the winding up of a company is bring made to the High Court that workers will be notified." It will be recommended that this should be extended, and for the avoidance of any doubt, to include a trade union of which these workers are members. The legislation before us puts an obligation on the directors of a company to inform employees or their representatives of the intention to seek the winding up of a company. The new proposed subsection to be inserted into section 571 of the Companies Act 2014 simply refers to an obligation to inform employees, so it is more of a belt, braces and bailer twine type of amendment. For the purposes of this discussion my intention is to withdraw amendment No. 1 but to put the Minister on notice that I will bring forward an amendment on Report Stage.

It should also be expressly provided that a trade union would be entitled to be heard in the High Court during the application for the winding up of a company, and I am flagging that I will bring that forward. Part of the reason for that is that when one talks to workers who have been involved in the cases this legislation seeks to deal with, very often the workers and their representatives will say they did not feel heard or like there is a place for them. That is how we ended up with protests. Even when we were in the midst of Covid, workers were still coming out to protest. That is a measure of the level of frustration that was there and the fact there is not a place for the workers, or their representatives, to go. In talking to union officials, they will tell you pretty much the same thing. I wanted to flag that I am happy to withdraw amendment No. 1 but I will bring forward an amendment on Report Stage to include the representatives explicitly.

I thank the Deputy. Does the Minister of State wish to comment?

I thank the Deputy for indicating she will withdraw the amendment. I want to underline that I do appreciate her intentions with this amendment. There are a couple of things here with regard to a legal retirement and the stated voluntary nature of our industrial relations system in this State and any changes to collective bargaining can be aligned with our response to the report of the high level working group on collective bargaining.

That is something that is under way. I have already met a number of times with the social partners and we are going to make really good progress on that. Perhaps that will be an area we focus on a bit more, going forward.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

I move amendment No. 2:

In page 6, between lines 24 and 25, to insert the following:

“(b) by the insertion of the following subsection after subsection (1):

“(1A) Where a European Works Council stands established pursuant to the Transnational Information and Consultation of Employees Act 1996 in relation to the employment in which it is proposed to create collective redundancies, the employer or responsible person shall, in addition to the requirements of subsection (1), with a view to reaching agreement, initiate consultation with the European Works Council.”,”.

This relates to what representatives of both Irish and European trade unions as well as business stakeholders, along with the European Commission, have identified as an issue, namely, that Irish legislation transposing the European works council directive, specifically the Transnational Information and Consultation of Employees Act 1996, as amended, fails to make it clear that disputes involving European works councils can be referred to the WRC in the first instance and then to the Labour Court for a legally-binding decision. It appears the Department rejects this argument and points to recent references of EWC disputes to the WRC and now to the Labour Court. However, these disputes concern individual members of European works councils who believe their rights have been denied to them. The Department's position does not address the point that European works councils, as collective bodies, do not appear to have the right of access to the WRC or the court. This leaves us very much out of line with other EU jurisdictions. We have discussed this at this committee with representatives from trade unions and other European organisations. Substantial disputes can arise between European works councils and management when job losses are involved, which is what we are here to discuss with respect to collective redundancies.

This amendment makes it clear that where Irish-based European works councils need to be informed and consulted over job losses, then they will have access to the State's dispute resolution procedures if the need arises. This would be a first step in correcting the gaps in the legislation. The Minister of State might take the position that the Commission will soon be publishing proposals to revise the EWC directive and changes to this legislation should await the outcome of the process, but there are going to be European Parliament elections in 2024, a new Commission is going to be appointed and it will be four or five years at the earliest before the EWC law is changed. This is too long.

I am interested in the Minister of State's view. Is it his position there is enough there already because individuals can go to the WRC and then on to the Labour Court? Alternatively, is it his position that it is not ideal and that there is not enough there, but that if we wait the Commission may act?

To address the first point about what is happening at European level, the last European Council meeting I attended was just last month and I will be going again in two weeks' time for the EPSCO meeting. It is my understanding the Belgian Presidency has already convened a working party on this matter and a second working party meeting is scheduled at the end of this month to lead into the Council meeting in March. The ambition is to reach a general agreement by the end of this Presidency, which obviously leads us just past the European elections in June. It is best to ensure legal provisions that refer to transnational employer obligations maintain a level playing field and therefore it is only appropriate that developments at an EU level are ultimately reflected in the Transnational Information and Consultation of Employees Act 1996. To the Deputy's point, there may be scope for improvements, but it is important to do this on a European basis, especially when it involves European works councils, and to let that process conclude. As I said, the process is more than advanced at this stage.

The Minister of State talked about a level playing field, but there is not one at the moment because Irish representative groups through the EWCs do not have access to the State's machinery and they do in other jurisdictions. If the Minister of State is talking about levelling up the playing field then happy days, but he is talking about putting that on the long finger and it is not necessary for us to wait. I appreciate the work that has been done and am not trying to undercut it in any way. When the new Commission comes into place post the European elections the likelihood is this is going to be pushed out even further. What we heard here from the representatives from SIPTU was they felt there was a need for this to move a little quicker. I do not sense a hostility to doing this from the Minister of State and it seems it is more to do with the mechanism. My concern is around timing, because we could do this now or we could wait for the Commission. Timing is the issue I am primarily concerned with.

I do not know that is what this amendment necessarily does, but to be quite clear, I am more than comfortable with the timing. We are talking about a matter of weeks. The second working group will be meeting before the end of this month. We are already at 14 February - as we all probably woke up realising today - we have a European Council meeting in three weeks' time and the Belgian Presidency will be concluding on 1 July. I am more than happy to engage directly with the social partners and will bring this up at the meeting I have with them in the coming days. The timeframe is more than adequate, based on my 15-odd years' experience of working through European legislation and the European ordinary legislative process. There is absolutely scope here. I am not worried about a new Commission coming into play, effectively, in November. This can be done, as I said, by the conclusion of the Belgian Presidency in July.

It is the intention that it be concluded before the end of the-----

That is what the Belgians have very much stated. My Belgian counterpart has stated that. He said it to me on 10 January, which was the last time we spoke about it.

On the basis of that clarification and pending the Minister of State's consulting the social partners, who I meet fairly regularly as well, I will withdraw the amendment. In the intervening time I will engage and I reserve the right to resubmit this on Report Stage.

Section 5 agreed to.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Sections 6 to 26 agreed to.
NEW SECTION

I move amendment No. 3:

In page 13, after line 32, to insert the following:

“Amendment of Act of 2014

28. The Act of 2014 is amended by the insertion of the following sections after section 621:

“Power of the Court to return assets which have been improperly transferred

621A. (1) The court has the following power where, on the application of the Minister or the liquidator and/or employee representative and employees’ recognised trade union in respect of a situation in which collective redundancies have arisen in circumstances in which the employer is insolvent, it can be shown that—

(a) the employer is unable to fully discharge the debts owing to the employees,

(b) any property of the company of any kind whatsoever was disposed of either by way of conveyance, transfer mortgage, security, loan or in any way whatsoever whether by act or omission, direct or indirect, and

(c) the effect of such a disposal is to perpetrate a fraud on the company’s employees by leaving inadequate resources to discharge the entitlements of the employees who are subsequently made redundant as a result of the employer’s insolvency.

(2) The power of the court is to order, if it deems it just and equitable to do so, any person who appears to have—

(a) the use, control or possession of the property concerned, or

(b) the proceeds of the sale or development of that property, to deliver it or them, or pay any sum in respect thereof, to the liquidator on such terms or conditions as the court thinks fit.

(3) If the Minister makes a payment to employees pursuant to section 10 of the Protection of Employees (Employers’ Insolvency) Act 1984, then the Minster shall have the right to make an application under subsection (1) in order to recover the sum expended.

Preferential Creditor status for employees

621B. (1) Assets or value accrued pursuant to section 621A, form part of the assets of the employer for the purposes of the liquidation and shall be distributed in accordance with section 621.

(2) Notwithstanding the generality of the foregoing, payments due to discharge the entitlements of the employees who have been made redundant as a result of the employer’s insolvency shall have priority to all other debts.”.”.

This amendment seeks to provide protection for workers in collective redundancy cases where their employer is insolvent and to give power to the High Court to return assets that have been improperly transferred and give that preferential status to employees. The intention of this amendment is to build on the Duffy Cahill report recommendations to ensure limited liability and corporate restructuring are not used to avoid a company's obligations to its workers. For many years workers, trade unions and parties in opposition have been seeking legislative protections for workers on collective agreements. If we look back at the history of this there have been several attempts to do this, all of which have proved this area is very fraught and complex. We completely understand it is not easy and nobody in my party has sought to try to trivialise this or oversimplify it in any way. We do not for a moment believe it is not complicated; it is incredibly complicated.

The Minister of State's Government outlined intentions to deliver legislative improvements in this area and while all improvements in this area are massively welcome. This Bill does not address the situation whereby workers are treated as unsecured creditors for the purpose of their collectively-bargained redundancy agreements. We should remember that for every collectively-bargained redundancy agreement there is give and take and very often people have given over that which they get back for the redundancy agreement within the collectively agreement for the redundancy part of it. There is always give and take, and we saw that with Debenhams, where the workers had conceded a number of issues and in return for that got a collective redundancy agreement they thought gave them some status. When they found themselves in the courts as part of their campaign it turned out that did not have the status it perhaps should have. That is not right and needs to be addressed. During collective redundancy cases in the event of liquidation the phrase "a company's obligations to its employees" is very frequently used. It was used in the Duffy Cahill report and this point is the focus of the amendment. We cannot have companies doing what are known as tactical insolvencies and we have seen numerous examples of that, such as when a company is broken up into different components with the bits that are profitable being sold off and people walking away with the money. The operational parts are left intact and the State and the workers have to shoulder the liability in that case. When the profitable parts are gone the parts that are not profitable are left and it is the workers who are left holding the baby on that, so we have seen tactical liquidations.

What I want to ensure is that companies can no longer engage in the practice of tactical insolvencies, and that is the purpose of this amendment. I do not think anyone disputes that goes on. We may have disagreements about the extent to which it goes on. That is fine, but it goes on. This legislation is an ideal place to ensure that practice is stopped and that is the purpose of my amendment.

I appreciate the sentiments but Deputy O'Reilly's amendment goes a bit further than that intent. I refer to the Deputy's comments in relation to collective redundancies. It must be noted that all eligible employees are entitled to a statutory redundancy payment and where an employer is unable to pay, the State steps in to ensure that this is honoured as is.

In an insolvency situation, employees are already considered preferred creditors in terms of wage arrears, outstanding holiday pay, pension scheme contributions and statutory redundancy. Their statutory entitlements are also guaranteed by the State via the insolvency payment schemes. Enhanced redundancies, over and above this statutory entitlement, are a voluntary matter between employers and employees. Ireland's system of industrial relations is based on a voluntary approach and collective agreements are not, therefore, binding in law.

Providing for enhanced entitlements would have serious consequences. It would risk creating two classes of employees with a special class of workers made redundant due to insolvency granted enhanced legal rights that go beyond those afforded to workers who are made redundant for other reasons. This would be constitutionally unsound. It would also have a massive knock-on effect on other creditors, such as SMEs and suppliers, which themselves are employers and which, due to liquidity issues, may find themselves making their workers redundant.

This is not the place for that, although I accept the best intentions of the Deputy. I am more than happy to engage on, and I accept the Deputy's point about, tactical redundancies. These amendments would have a much bigger impact with the insertion of these sections and, therefore, I am not in a position to accept this amendment.

The Minister of State referenced the creation of two classes of employees. That exists already. There are already workers whose collective bargaining agreements, which might not have statutory underpinning, certainly have an impact at the level of the workplace. As I said, there is give and take. That already exists. If one is in a unionised employment, the chances are one has a collective agreement that covers 101 different matters, redundancy being one of them. If one is not, one is not. That upstairs-downstairs two classes of employees already exists.

I am happy to engage with the Minister of State between now and Report Stage. What I am seeking to do is to insert an amendment that will provide protection here. We have to acknowledge that there are two classes. There are workers who are unionised, and there are also non-unionised workers, who enjoy collective agreements, protection and enhanced redundancies and there are some who do not. Those who find themselves in the situation, as they did in Debenhams, for example, where there was collective bargaining, give and take, they gave over whatever it was as part of the agreement and they got back an enhanced redundancy, but when push came to shove they found that enhanced redundancy was not available to them and they found themselves effectively at the back of the queue. As the Minister of State outlined, there are certain payments for which workers are considered already preferential, but not for redundancy, and it was to seek to redress that.

I welcome the Minister of State's offer of engagement. That would be good. I think the Minister of State shares my aspiration to ensure companies cannot engage in the practice of tactical insolvencies because, effectively, what happens here is that the workers are the ones left at the very end of the queue for their redundancy payments. That is what we are here to discuss - the minimum entitlements to sick pay, annual leave, etc. That is fair enough, but the redundancy would constitute the bulk of the award as whatever one would get for minimum terms and retrospective holiday pay, etc., would be very small and not reflective of what the service one would have given to the company.

I am happy to engage with the Minister of State and I am interested in doing so. It is something that should be done. If it is the Minister of State's position that the amendment does not do that, I can tell him that my intention was to do that. I am happy to engage with him and his officials to see if we can come to some mechanism by which this cannot happen anymore. I do not think anybody would try to justify it - the Minister of State certainly is not doing so - but my clear position is that we know it goes on and it needs to be stopped.

On the basis of the offer from the Minister of State that we can have an engagement, I am happy to do that. I am content to withdraw the amendment with a view to resubmitting it on Report Stage.

I am more than happy to facilitate that engagement, perhaps in the context of company law. I think that is what I was at, and where it is more appropriate, whereas this is when it comes into the area of statutory versus voluntary. The Deputy and I are both unionised workers. We do so on a voluntary basis. That is an option open to us. Inserting this amendment, while well-intentioned, would have much greater consequences than its meaning. Therefore, we will arrange direct engagement, perhaps in the area of company law.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Section 27 agreed to.
Title agreed to.
Bill reported without amendment.
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