I move amendment No. 79:
In page 36, subsection (6) (c), line 7, after "legal" to insert "or other".
This is a technical amendment to ensure that somebody can bring either a legal representative or another representative, for example, a representative of a Civil Service staff union.
This is a wide-ranging section dealing with the powers of the commission and the Select Committees. It provides for a variety of matters which I presume are necessary. There are penalties involved in this section. Perhaps the Minister would outline some of these matters as it is a long section that covers two and a half pages. I am not blaming the Minister but it baffles me that, in drafting legislation, sections must consist of pages and pages of text. It is like some civil servants who, when writing letters, believe that there must be only commas in paragraphs although it is easier to make separate sentences. Perhaps there could be a course for drafting legislation.
I agree with the Deputy.
This section is based on the Third Schedule of the Garda Complaints Act, 1986. They are standard procedures for these types of investigations. Provision is made for matters such as administering oaths, notification of persons subject to investigation, attendance of witnesses, production of papers, giving of evidence, right to attend or be represented, creation of offences or perjury and contempt in failing to comply with the commission's or the committee's lawful instructions or the giving of false evidence. The provisions ensure that the investigations can proceed and that the rules of natural justice are upheld.
It appears that one will be obliged to take the oath before these committees and commissions. Will people brought before a committee of inquiry regarding a Member or brought before a commission have the oath administered to them? It appears it will.
It would depend on the issue concerned. These are standard provisions. It will be up to the chairperson of the committee or commission to decide if that should happen.
Perhaps the Minister will look again before Report Stage. She said it is based on the Third Schedule of the Garda Complaints Act although I did not know where it originated. There are references in the section to the taking of an oath because there are references to perjury in this regard — he shall be guilty of the offence of perjury. That has never been the case with regard to Select Committees of inquiry. I am not taking on whether it is necessary to provide for that but I am pointing out that it is a new principle for Select Committees of the Dáil. Perhaps it is the common practice in commissions of inquiry for other people. However, taking an oath usually occurs in court. This section certainly refers to taking an oath and the penalties for not taking an oath. I am not saying the provisions are a good or bad idea but perhaps the Minister should look at the section again.
I agree with Deputy McCreevy's remarks regarding Select Committees. It is a condition of one's terms of employment as, for example, a senior civil servant that one complies with the provisions of this Bill. It could be analagous to a dismissal hearing under the Garda Complaints Act if somebody is before a hearing regarding a contravention in that context. These rules are included to support the rules of natural justice. I would not envisage that the taking of oaths would arise. However, we can look at it.
This is self-explanatory and underlines the fact that the commission and its members are independent in the performance of their function. This section gives that statutory backing.
The section underlines, for a reason I do not understand, the fact that the commission will be independent. It would be strange to have a commission that was not independent inquiring into allegations of wrongdoing against a person.
It reassures everybody.
However, it brings up an interesting point. As it refers to the independence of the commission which will deal with non-Oireachtas members, is it presuming, with regard to an earlier point I made, that the Select Committee is not independent? By including this section to highlight the independence of the commission the Minister reinforces the point we made earlier about the possibility, as a result of party considerations and so forth, of the Select Committee of the Oireachtas not being independent.
Is the Oireachtas committee independent?
There are only a few Independents in the House. This is not intended to cast aspersions on the select committee. It is to ensure against ill-informed comment from outside; some members of the commission are quasi-public servants and people may say they are not independent in investigating complaints against the Civil Service. This is to underline that they are statutorily independent in the performance of their function.
Apropos that point, if a civil servant sat on the commission and was also responsible to the chain of command within his or her Department, is this section to emphasise that the civil servant's superior cannot tell him or her to act in a certain way, as he would be entitled to do in respect of normal duties?
It is to ensure they are independent and seen to be so in the performance of their functions. Elsewhere in the Bill we provide that if something arises in the office of the Comptroller and Auditor General, the office holder will stand aside from the commission for the purpose of investigation. We have copper-fastened this to ensure this is seen to be independent.
