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SELECT COMMITTEE ON FINANCE AND THE PUBLIC SERVICE díospóireacht -
Thursday, 11 Jun 2009

Vote 18 — Office of the Ombudsman (Revised). 2009 Annual Output Statement — Department of Finance.

On 23 April 2009, the Dáil ordered that the following Revised Estimates for the public services be referred to this committee for consideration: Vote 1- President's Establishment; Vote 5 — Office of the Comptroller and Auditor General; Vote 6 — Office of the Minister for Finance; Vote 7 — Superannuation and Retired Allowances; Vote 8 — Office of the Appeal Commissioners; Vote 9 — Office of the Revenue Commissioners; Vote 11 — State Laboratory; Vote 12 — Secret Service; Vote 15 — Valuation Office; Vote 16 — Public Appointments Service; Vote 17 — Office of the Commission for Public Service Appointments; and Vote 18 — Office of the Ombudsman. Please note that an amended version of the Estimate published in the 2009 Revised Estimates in respect of Vote 6 has been circulated for the information of committee members.

I welcome the Minister for Finance, Deputy Brian Lenihan, and his officials. The purpose of today's meeting is to consider the Revised Estimates and the output statement for the finance group of Votes. A draft timetable for the meeting has been circulated. It allows for opening statements by the Opposition spokespersons, followed by discussion on each of the Votes and the output statement. Is the timetable agreed? Agreed.

Members will be aware that as part of the budgetary process reform initiated by the Minister for Finance in his Budget Statement 2006, each Department must now publish an output statement for consideration by Oireachtas committees. In line with the reformed budgetary process, an output statement has been provided and has been circulated, along with briefing, to members. This is an important initiative and is intended to facilitate better parliamentary involvement in the budget and Estimate processes.

In addition, the Minister for Finance, in letters in 2008 and 2009 respectively, requested that the Estimates debates should have a particular focus on the outputs to be achieved for the moneys being voted. In the 2009 letter from the Minister, the committee has again been asked to undertake a similar critical and co-ordinating role in respect of this round of the 2009 annual output statements. A letter has been sent to each of the select committees in this regard. If this committee has any constructive criticisms regarding the quality and nature of the documents and how they might be improved, I ask that they be articulated so that they can be brought to the Minister's attention. I now invite the Minister to make his opening statement.

I welcome this opportunity to appear before the select committee to consider the 2009 Estimates and the annual output statements for my Department's group of Votes. I am happy to appear before the committee to discuss Ireland's stability programme as updated for this year. My colleague, the Minister for State, Deputy Mansergh, will present the Estimate and output statement of the Office of Public Works to the committee separately on 18 June, so I will confine my comments to a number of significant areas within the Vote group of interest to Deputies.

This is the third occasion on which this committee will have an opportunity to consider an annual output statement with the Revised Estimates for the public service. The annual output statements were introduced in 2007 as a tool for Dáil scrutiny of the annual Estimates of expenditure, as part of the Government's ongoing budgetary reform measures.

I refer to the April 2008 OECD report on the Irish public service, Towards an Integrated Public Service, which was complimentary about the output statement approach, recognising it as a key element of Ireland's "sound trajectory of modernisation", and as central to the core recommendation for a more integrated, performance-centred approach to management of resources. The OECD called for a range of improvements to this approach. The useful feedback I received from this committee last December is broadly in keeping with the OECD's analysis and with the agenda set out in the task force report on transforming public services. The committee has also asked for changes along these lines.

This year, the format of the 2009 round of output statements has been refined so that it is more focused on the important headline outputs rather than on internal processes and activities. Administrative costs are also clearly shown alongside each programme with which they are linked. My Department has encouraged all Departments to give greater attention to the quality and relevance of the output indicators used in their statements, and work is progressing to improve and standardise the relevant indicators, having regard to best international practice in this area. I welcome further constructive views from this committee on improving the output statements.

In the course of this last year, the environment in which we operate has changed dramatically. We face the deepest and most widespread recession at home and abroad that any of us have ever seen. There is no point in hiding this message for short-term popularity purposes. Given this unfavourable context, it is even more essential that our public services are organised and delivered in as efficient and effective a manner as possible. I intend to continue to improve the budget and Estimates process and to ensure that a greater focus is placed on allocating resources on the basis of the outputs to be delivered.

Before I turn to the detailed Estimates, I would like to provide members with a brief update on the economic position of the public finances and then move on to discuss the Council opinion on our stability programme. The global economy is currently experiencing its deepest and most widespread recession for more than a half century. The vast majority of our export markets are predicted by the IMF to contract by close to 4% this year. Adverse exchange rate movements are presenting additional competitiveness difficulties for indigenous Irish exporters. Some optimism regarding global economic prospects has emerged in recent weeks, with tentative signs of stabilisation in some key regions.

My Department forecast in the supplementary budget in April that the economy will contract in GDP terms by a cumulative 13% during the period from 2008 to 2010. This implies a sharp fall in living standards, which reflects the extraordinary economic environment which is presenting severe challenges throughout the world. The Government's approach is to implement the appropriate policies to position the economy to benefit from the global economic upturn when it eventually emerges. Our economy remains flexible and resilient and this will facilitate an adjustment to a new economic environment. We remain committed to providing a pro-enterprise environment and to maintaining our relatively low tax burden on business. We also continue to invest in productive infrastructure.

In the past 11 months the Government has formulated a series of actions and submitted them to the House to deal with the considerable deterioration in the public finances. This began in July last year when a range of adjustments were introduced enabling savings of €1 billion to be delivered for 2009. The October budget took further action on expenditure, while revenue raising measures of almost €2 billion were introduced.

Following a continued deterioration in economic conditions, in February 2009, further expenditure savings of almost €1.8 billion for 2009 were announced, including the introduction of the public sector pension levy. The April supplementary budget will further improve the position of the public finances by €3.3 billion in 2009. The supplementary budget also set out a plan to bring the general Government deficit within 3% of GDP by the end of 2013 and this strategy has received the backing of the EU Commission.

As part of the multi-annual process, the Government is committed to achieving expenditure cuts of a further €2.5 billion in 2010 and €2.5 billion in 2011. These adjustments will entail further reductions in pay costs numbers and the full range of expenditure programmes. Sharper targeting of programme spending and more efficient use of resources across the board will also be required. I indicated in my budget speech that the indicative figure for saving on the expenditure side was a minimum. Further steps remain to be taken and the overall policy areas that will be examined in this context have been outlined. The Commission on Taxation and the special group on public service numbers and expenditure programmes are both due to report this summer. These will play an important role in identifying measures to further improve the budgetary position in the coming years. They are of even more fundamental importance in that they will introduce a realism into the public debate on these subjects that has been absent in many quarters to date. The scope for further income tax measures is limited if we are not to harm our capacity to recover. The majority of future budgetary adjustments will have to be borne on the spending side of the Government account. The Government has been clear that restoring order and sustainability to the public finances is a vital first step in renewal of the economy and our actions in this regard will continue.

I recently undertook a series of meetings in European financial capitals with potential investors. I highlighted the key strengths of the Irish economy including our proven track record of adjusting to changing circumstances and demonstrating our flexibility and responding with rapidity to the public financial crisis. Asset prices, wage levels and price levels are all adjusting rapidly to the new economic circumstances, particularly in the private sector, and this is improving Ireland's competitiveness. Exports are holding up reasonably well. There is a duty on all of us in the House to ensure that the public sector reform and the adjustment of expenditure there mirror the pattern in the private sector. Our debt levels will rise in the coming years but from an initial low level and are expected by the EU Commission forecasts to remain below the EU average in 2009 and 2010.

The end of May Exchequer returns revealed a deficit of €10.5 billion, including payment of €3 billion to the National Pensions Reserve Fund as part of the bank recapitalisation programme. Tax revenue was broadly on profile overall, however, some tax heads, notably VAT, showed weaknesses. Net voted expenditure was slightly below profile.

I will now deal with the Council's opinion on Ireland's stability programme. In view of the particularly difficult global economic situation, member states were invited to revise their stability programmes at the end of 2008 to reflect policy responses to the downturn and to provide updated budgetary and economic projections. In our January 2009 update the Government announced a five-year strategy to restore stability to the public finances by end 2013. The Council opinion, which has been circulated to members, urges us to contain the deficit in 2009 and to implement substantial annual consolidation efforts in subsequent years. It also calls for strengthening of the medium-term budgetary framework and implementation of further pension reforms in the interest of the long-term sustainability of the public finances. The Government's budgetary strategy as outlined in the supplementary budget has been welcomed by the European Commission. The related Council recommendation under the excessive deficit procedure invites us to pursue the budgetary targets we have set over the period to the end of 2013. While decisions on budgetary matters remain the responsibility of national authorities, Council recommendations support member states in pursuing necessary, if difficult, fiscal consolidation — an important consideration given that some 20 member states are expected to exceed the 3%of GDP deficit reference value this year.

I briefed my European colleagues and the EU Commission with developments and I am pleased to report that there is wide recognition and support for the steps already taken by the Irish Government and for our plan of action. Consequently, I believe the policies we are now pursuing, albeit difficult, are already restoring confidence in our economic prospects.

As a Government we have made a series of radical, coherent decisions to protect this nation's finances. This has not been popular, but it is unavoidable. We are determined to protect the most vulnerable and to promote equity by fair tax policies, by driving efficiency in the provision of public services and by reducing pay costs and numbers, by smarter working arrangements and by insisting on value for money and seeking procurement gains. We have introduced a sensible moratorium on numbers growth and a reasonable and realistic early retirement plan. We have switched resources to job creation, employment protection and less capital-intensive spending. More needs to be done and will be done. This task will not be easy. The forthcoming reports of the special group on expenditure and numbers and the Commission on Taxation will set out the plain, stark, severe choices we face to close the unsustainable gap between revenue and spending. That gap between revenue and spending exists because of the state of the public finances and it has nothing to do with the commercial cost of ensuring the recapitalisation and protection of the banking sector. These reports will provide the context for a sensible political debate on the policy choices we face. All participants in that debate owe it to the electorate to spell out their plans and to say what they propose to do. The reports will provide a basis for a good public discussion between the parties in this House and among the public generally, about the way forward. When they do, that is when the real test of confidence will begin and when the current warm glow of popularity will fade. There will be no hiding place in this debate and we will make sure of that.

I will deal with the particular Votes before the committee. Vote 6 — Office of the Minister for Finance deals with a further Revised Estimate for Vote 6 which provides for the administrative and non-administrative costs of the Department of Finance. This Estimate varies from the initially published Revised Estimate in that an additional €3.12 million for expenses associated with banking issues has been added to the gross provision. However, the net effect of the change is Vote and Exchequer-neutral as these additional costs can be recouped from the various institutions.

The gross Estimate for Vote 6 amounts to some €83.5 million which represents a decrease of some €14 million on the 2008 outturn. The net Estimate is €68.4 million, which is a decrease of some €21million on the 2008 outturn. The net reduction is accounted for by efficiencies achieved on the e-Government programmes, amounting to €7.5 million; reduced funding requirements on the Peace-INTERREG programmes by €8.1 million, as the current programmes reach a natural conclusion; and the addition of almost €7 million in appropriations-in-aid arising from the pension levy, projected recoupments from the banking institutions, combined with a reduction of €2 million in projected EU reimbursement of the Peace-INTERREG funding.

The 2009 Revised Estimate for administrative subheads is €48 million. This is a decrease of €0.7 million on the 2008 outturn. The decrease reflects full year savings anticipated as a result of the efficiencies sought under the Government savings directive issued in July 2008. Gross non-administrative programme expenditure of some €35.5 million accounts for 42% of the gross Estimate.

The largest single area of such expenditure in the current year is provided on the charitable lotteries programme under the Budget, Taxation and Economic heading of €8 million. This subhead was established in 1997 and payments are made from it to supplement the income of certain private charitable lotteries whose lottery products are in direct competition with comparable National Lottery products.

On Vote 9 — Office of the Revenue Commissioners — the net Estimates for the Office of the Revenue Commissioners at €403.255 million, is down 7.4% on the 2008 outturn and reflects Government decisions related to overall reductions in spending. While staff numbers will decrease in 2009, provision for salaries shows an increase. This arises because of the full year impact in 2009 of the 2008 pay increases, increments and the occurrence of a 53rd payday for weekly paid staff in 2009. In this context it is worth pointing out that staff levels in the Revenue Commissioners have remained significantly unchanged for several years despite large increases in the volume of business as considerable efficiencies became available, mainly through the use of information technology.

During 2009, Revenue will concentrate its efforts on maximising collection while simultaneously improving its delivery of customer service through on-line facilities and providing support to compliant taxpayers who may be experiencing temporary compliance difficulties.

In parallel with this effort, Revenue is committed to continue building its risk-based approach to compliance with interventions being focused on the highest risk sectors or taxpayers. Through 2009, Revenue's method of tackling evasion, frontier abuse and all forms of non-compliance will continue to be targeted and risk-based with increased efforts to identify, investigate and prosecute evasion and smuggling. In addition, Revenue will maximise the flexibility and capabilities of its organisation to respond effectively to the challenges set by the Government's plan to restore balance to the public finances by 2013 and any future Government decisions on adjustments to the tax system or revenue-raising measures which may arise in recommendations from the Commission on Taxation. Members may question the need for the Public Appointments Service in current circumstances. The budget of the service has been cut by 9% and so far 20% of its staff has been redeployed to help other Departments. The Public Appointments Service will have a more limited role in appointments but may be able to assist in redeployment of staff. Its role will change and I will make further reductions where warranted.

As regards the other Votes in the finance group, the members of the committee have been provided with background briefing by my Department on all of the Estimates which are presented today for the committee's approval. I thank the committee members for their attention and I commend the Estimates to the committee. I will of course be glad to supply any further information or clarification that members may request.

As agreed at the commencement of the meeting the Minister has had 15 minutes. We will now have ten minutes for an opening statement by Deputy Bruton followed by ten minutes for Deputy Burton.

There can be no question about the depth of the crisis we now face. Some 250,000 jobs have been lost in the past 12 to 18 months. A further 250,000 jobs will be lost between now and the end of next year according to ESRI predictions. This is a really grave situation brought upon us by a series of catastrophic policy failures in respect of the managing of the banking system, the property bubble, the public finances and public service reform. We are in a deep hole having been afflicted by poor decision making in the past. The Minister said there should be no hiding place in looking to the future. The truth is that for several years under Fianna Fáil-led Governments every problem has been bought out and not confronted. It has been a soft option approach that has brought us to the brink of financial and economic ruin and the ruin of the quality of life for many of our citizens.

I recognise that the Minister, Deputy Brian Lenihan, did not preside over many of those decisions. I welcome his commitment to address the major problems we now confront. I welcome his comment that there is no hiding place in this debate. The core problem with our budgetary system is that it is riddled with hiding places. Regarding system change, the Minister will know that his spending Estimates have no advance scrutiny. The Minister and all his colleagues hide their spending intentions from scrutiny. It is Ministers who seek hiding places. Ministers do not tell the Oireachtas what they intend to achieve with their money, even when they decide this without scrutiny, until seven months into the year after they have decided on that money. Today we are seeing the expenditure targets Ministers decided last year. While I welcome this change of heart, I hope it is not just idle rhetoric to try to ask the Opposition to identify what it would cut. I hope it is a genuine willingness to share information and to come into this House and debate the choices ahead of making decisions.

Yesterday the Taoiseach told us that the McCarthy report would not be provided in advance. Today the Minister has said that there would be no hiding place in the debate and is inferring that it will be provided to the Oireachtas. We need some clarity from the Minister for Finance and the Taoiseach as to the Government's intentions in this area. This interesting and tough talk needs to be reflected in some sort of willingness to change. Our budget system is absolutely inadequate. Tax expenditure is still not subjected to scrutiny. Built into our system is approximately €5 billion in expenditure each year that is not properly scrutinised. Neither the Minister nor any of his predecessors has ever agreed to provide ahead of a Finance Bill an annual statement of expenditure indicating its value, appropriateness and continued relevance. People know that the continuance of these tax expenditures have been at the core of many of our failures.

I ask the Minister to look at these output statements to ascertain to what extent they meet an honest attempt to inform us about the level of achievement and cost effectiveness relative to other approaches. They do not do that or set out to do that as the Minister will see from a cursory glance. They do not present the data in such a way to do that. They provide a so-called target for every activity. There is no attempt to prioritise activities. It is simply a box-ticking exercise. While it may be developing, we are light years away from the sort of system the Minister would need if this is to be a genuine scrutiny of whether what we are doing today is value for money, not just from the Department of Finance but also from all the other Departments. It continues to ignore capital costs as if the use of capital was a free good, which is ludicrous. No one would stand over that. It continues to ignore pension costs when people are recruited. We need to get real and face up to these issues. I hope the Minister is not just coming in to have a rhetorical discussion.

After the Minister's tour of European capitals setting out what he believed was a good story, we were all very disappointed that we have had a downgrade of our credit rating. Why does the Minister believe this happened? What is underlying it? Can we counteract the downgrade? Is it linked to the banking approach we are adopting or the lack of credibility in our public finance targets?

Will the Minister achieve his tax targets this year? What has he done about the system given that his Department misses its targets every year? In good times and bad it has missed them. The Minister himself has expressed exasperation and did not allow any tax targets to be produced until after the second budget. The Minister abandoned the initiative produced by the former Minister for Finance, Mr. McCreevy, a number of years ago because he had no confidence in the Department's tax forecasting ability. Has he changed that? Has he now restored confidence? Has he had an evaluation of the process so that we can now have confidence that the system is robust or is he continuing to blame unforeseeable events for continually getting it so wrong?

What is the Department of Finance's vision of its role in economic strategy? While the Department still holds the purse strings, does it have a wider view of economic strategy? The Minister will know that the Opposition has been critical that the budget was devoid of much of the wider economic challenges. It did not address those economic challenges on the jobs front, through either jobs protection or jobs initiative. There is a deeper concern. The Department of Finance has stepped back from what was a fairly important role in economic development in the broadest terms. The recent framework document for the economy was produced by the Department of the Taoiseach. When I asked the Taoiseach yesterday how that was to be implemented and whether there was a steering group to drive it, he refused to answer. He said it was up to each Minister to drive this. The Government has a cross-cutting strategy for facilitating the economic development required. How can the strategy be driven if it does not have a person with budgetary and directional authority at its heart? Such a person should have the power to tell managers what their roles are and to impose consequences when they fail. I assume the strategy is based on the smart economy. Who is driving it? Does the Minister think his role, or that of the Taoiseach, should involve driving the strategy? Does everyone have a role in this regard, as the Taoiseach suggested yesterday? It seems he hopes it will all turn out right on the night. It is instructive that he has agreed to examine the statement made to the committee last year by the former Taoiseach, Deputy Bertie Ahern. At the time the former Taoiseach said one of the lessons he had learned was that strategies failed when people with exclusive budgetary authority were not devoted to them, time was not exclusively devoted to their administration, targets were not set or targets were set but not driven.

I would like to set out my position before this debate degenerates. It is important to do so because we are in throes of a huge economic maelstrom. The Minister wants us to focus on the McCarthy group which is examining the tax code. It is crucial for us to reflect on who is driving the bigger picture. That will be central to our capacity to get out of this.

I would like to focus on a specific issue. The Minister will appreciate the difficulty we face in this regard. It is difficult to make any sense of the raft of papers that have fallen on our desks like a stone. The documents have not been presented in a way that makes sense. I would like to ask a simple question. What were the Minister's big successes and misses this year? If one tries to find out from these papers what his big success was this year, if there was one, or what the big failure was, one will search in vain. If these documents are to mean anything, they should be showing us something like this.

I would like to speak about the roles of the Public Appointments Service and the Commission for Public Service Appointments. When this issue was raised by the Minister, he said 20% of the staff in question were to be redeployed, which seems generous. The information we have suggests that of the Public Appointments Service's 149 staff — whole-time equivalents — three were released and 11 were temporarily redeployed. Serious questions must be asked about what is going on. If we have abandoned all recruitment, why are we spending €13 million this year? In the outputs published no reference has been made to the number of people who have been recruited or the cost of recruitment compared to simply contracting out. The only target set in the outputs relates to the percentage of posts filled. That is not a meaningful target to be achieved from the expenditure of €13 million. We know that 100% of posts will be filled next year because there will be none——

There will be some.

There may be some. If this body is to continue to operate, surely the crucial issue for it to deal with in the coming year is public service redeployment. However, just 20% of its budget has been assigned for redeployment. No target for what the Public Appointments Service will achieve with its budget has been presented to us. Far from reducing staff numbers, the service is increasing its numbers. It has not told us how many staff it has, but we know that the number is increasing. Its budget is increasing by 7%. Surely one of the consequences of the decisions made by the Minister should be that the recruitment service will be one of the top areas for redeployment. However, it is clinging on. According to the Minister, 20 or 30 of its staff have gone. The published figure is 14. The service continues to have 150 staff, with an unknown number in the Commission for Public Service Appointments. Its board of nine members is continuing to operate. If we are in crisis mode, surely this body should be convulsed to the extent that it is involved solely with redeployment. It is riding shotgun as we consider how to move staff from under-performing programmes in FÁS, for example, to high need programmes in health care. That should be the entire focus of the service. There is no sense of a new vision or drive in the output statements for 2009. I do not detect that there is even an indication that there is some convulsion, or new approach, in the organisation. The Minister has said that because we are in crisis mode, there is no hiding place and all hands are needed to man the pumps. These documents do not reflect the urgency of the crisis and the need for change.

Does the Minister want to respond now?

I will respond after Deputy Burton has spoken. I think that is the normal procedure.

I welcome the Minister and his team. I want to focus on a number of areas. It is obvious that people's greatest concern and fear relates to the rising tide of unemployment. It looks like the 400,000 people who are on the dole will be joined by 100,000 or more by the end of the year. What strategy, if any, does the Department of Finance have for dealing with this crisis? It has been obvious for some months that the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment and its subsidiary agencies, including FÁS, seem unprepared — to put it modestly — for the level of the unemployment crisis engulfing the country. I understand the Public Appointments Service is being asked to do some work in the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment as part of the programme of redeployment to which the previous speaker alluded. Does the Government have any strategic approach to the management of resources and expenditure in that Department? Perhaps the Minister will comment on this.

I accept that the Revenue Commissioners have done a good job in making many of their systems more user friendly. What is its approach to farmers who are hanging on by their fingernails? The chairperson of the Revenue Commissioners has said people can approach that body. When I was on the election trail, I met many owners of small and medium-sized businesses who were making regular payments to the Revenue Commissioners. They do not consider they will be in a position to do this for much longer, partly because the credit situation in their banks is almost impossible. What is the Minister's current expectation for the likely revenue returns? It is likely that this month and next will be among the better months of the year, as a result of the bringing forward of payments. It is obvious that people who have money are trying to pay their taxes now, rather than later, for fear of further tax increases. I suspect the revenue returns might not be very good towards the end of the year. Has any profiling been done on what the Minister expects in terms of tax revenues?

I ask the Minister to comment on the level of interest in the various early retirement and leave-taking arrangements. Has much interest been shown in the schemes? What consequences will they have in terms of reductions in staff numbers? The early retirement and pension deal, in particular, was the subject of much interest initially. Has that interest been actively sustained? I would be grateful if the Minister could give us some insight into the matter.

Perhaps the most difficult issue is the banks. Does the Minister have a figure for what will be the likely additional borrowing requirements in respect of the banks? Just a couple of days ago the chairperson and directors of Anglo Irish Bank sat in the seats occupied by the Minister and his officials and confessed that all the forecasts they had made, including on stress-testing which had been made on behalf of the bank by PricewaterhouseCoopers, had been disastrously wrong and that in many cases the level of losses was greater by a factor of four or five. The Minister considers it a systemic bank — Anglo Irish Bank is relatively speaking a specialist builders' and developers' bank rather than a mainstream bank for general banking. Its chairman, Mr. O'Connor, spoke of its losses and the requirement that the State put €4 billion into the bank. The figure could, he said, rise to €7.6 billion or €7.7 billion and that the total figure could be €11 billion.

In terms of transfers to the National Assets Management Agency, Mr. O'Connor suggested they could amount to an additional €17 billion in assets, primarily development land, as well as undefined associated loans amounting to a similar figure. The amounts involved are staggering. Does the Minister have a ballpark estimate of what will be the likely amount spent on each of the covered institutions? The figures I cited refer only to Anglo Irish Bank. Allied Irish Banks, the Irish Nationwide Building Society, Bank of Ireland, the EBS and Irish Life & Permanent are also covered. Is it possible to provide an estimate of what further capital injections, if any, will be required and the likely level of transfers to NAMA and write-downs?

While the questions refer to an interesting issue, it is one that does not come within the Estimates.

On the Estimates, will the Minister provide an estimate of the likely cost of interest to the State arising from the banking crisis and the increase in the cost of——

The matter does not arise in the Estimates.

It arises in the annual accounts. Surely the Minister has knowledge of these matters.

The Deputy is stretching matters slightly.

I understood the Department was responsible for the Central Fund. The figures I seek are critical in trying to obtain a picture of the current position and what is likely to occur during the remainder of the year.

The cost of decentralisation has been raised. What is the position on the decentralisation project? How many civil servants are in the advance parties and where are they? Are they still advancing towards 53 separate corners of the country or have they reached the end of their long or short march?

The Minister of State, Deputy Mansergh, will deal with the Vote for the Office of Public Works.

Will the Minister advise the Minister of State that the select committee is seeking information on progress being made by the advance parties in the decentralisation process?

In terms of the Department's overall Estimate, specifically the figures for performance awards, does the Minister propose to continue with the performance awards scheme? What is the status of the scheme?

During the emergency budget the Minister announced a review of Civil Service remuneration at the higher levels involving a comparison with European rates of remuneration. What is the position in this regard? Will the Minister provide the figures included in the various costs for consultancy and other services included in the fees which have been paid? I am slightly confused because while much of the work may have been done at the request of the Department of Finance, it may have been taken on by other agencies. Was Merrill Lynch, for instance, employed by the Department or exclusively by subsidiary agencies?

Arthur Cox was retained by the Department.

Will the Minister provide information on the fees paid to Arthur Cox? References are made to a number of increases in the Estimates in this area. What are they?

On the Minister's general comments about the economy, in its report the Economic and Social Research Institute clearly suggested that while it expected the overall deficit to be between €20 billion and €21 billion, it attributed about one third of this figure — approximately €6 billion — to international factors and two thirds to mismanagement of the public finances and the collapse in revenues. It described this figure as a structural deficit, in other words, a result of inappropriate fiscal policies and a reliance on taxes which had been exclusively associated with the property boom and subsequently collapsed leaving a hole of approximately €14 billion. This was outlined in the ESRI commentary on the public finances. The Minister and his officials are fond of highlighting cases in which the ESRI is laudatory of the Government. It appears in this case, however, that the Minister has not availed of an opportunity to comment on the figure of €14 billion the ESRI clearly states in its report is caused by fiscal mismanagement. I ask him to comment.

Deputy Bruton has referred in general terms to the current economic position. I do not propose to do battle with him on the issue this morning as we have done so previously and will do so again. It will assist the select committee if we focus on specific questions and I will try to assist members as much as I can.

I welcome Deputy Bruton's indication that he sees no hiding place in this debate for anyone. I concur that the sharing of information is of great importance in the current economic climate. Deputy Burton referred to this during a recent session of Question Time. It is important that the maximum amount of information be made available to enable members of the committee and the House to realise what choices can be exercised in the current economic circumstances. I will convey the views of the committee to the Government in its consideration of the McCarthy proposals when published. The special group is finalising its work. It is important that we have the maximum possible debate on its conclusions and the options it will place before us.

On tax expenditures, I see merit in Deputy Bruton's proposal that prior to the budget, a list of the relevant tax expenditures be prepared and published indicating their cost and utility. I will have that examined because it would be a useful adjunct to the budgetary process.

On Deputy Bruton's suggestion to have an annual statement on tax expenditures, on the one hand, he criticised the output statements for their lack of clarity, although he accepted there have been improvements. I agree there was always scope for improvement there. On the other hand, he illustrated very well in his consideration of the output statement of the Public Appointments Commission, how the output statements can be used, if analysed carefully, to raise highly pertinent questions.

None of the questions I raised are dealt with in the output statement.

The output statement of itself gave the Deputy a peg on which to——

It is very weak.

Perhaps, but it seemed to my mind to be a peg that allowed Deputy Bruton to ask some fairly probing questions.

It was more like a splinter that is deeply ingrained in one's skin, that one is trying to remove.

If the Deputy contrasts the peg that the output statement provided with the formal presentation of the public accounts in the traditional manner, it is clear that the output statement enabled a more informed question to be asked on that part of the Vote.

On the question of the economic strategy of the Government, who is driving that strategy, and the smart economy document, there is a Cabinet committee on economic strategy and renewal that is chaired by the Taoiseach, which all relevant Ministers attend. It meets on a regular basis. On the big successes——

The former Taoiseach, Deputy Bertie Ahern, said last year that one needs to take a public servant away from his or her duties, give him or her and his or her team, authority and a steering group, budgets and the ability to drive decisions if those things are to happen. He was pointing to the sort of thing that the private sector would have, namely, a steering group for change management or project management and that that would be driven. With the best will in the world, a Cabinet sub-committee consists of a number of men or women with many other issues on their mind. They turn up in various states of disarray to the Cabinet sub-committee. Such a committee is not the sort of thing that can be held accountable and, ultimately, does not allow one to say so and so failed to deliver X or Y. Is that not a fair assessment?

A Cabinet sub-committee allows Ministers and officials to work on specific areas. The Opposition will always reserve the right to say Ministers are in disarray but I have not encountered either Ministers or senior officials in disarray at that committee. Ministers and their officials come from a wide range of Departments and they share perspectives on the core issues facing us during this economic crisis.

Does the Minister agree that a Cabinet sub-committee is an inadequate vehicle to drive the smart economy document?

The sub-committee is chaired by the Taoiseach.

The Minister is not answering the question. If this is the Minister's world-breaking initiative, is it getting the steering group, the authorities and budgets to drive it as the Government's priority?

If the Taoiseach takes a personal interest in chairing the committee that is driving the agenda and he is assisted by officials at the most senior level in his Department——

It depends on what is happening beneath that.

I do not think there is any way under our system of government that one can give a higher priority to this issue.

Is there one single top official in any Department driving the smart economy?

The Taoiseach, assisted by his Department, is driving the smart economy agenda. That is the position. He is the top official.

He is driving health integration.

Is there a project manager from within the Departments who is co-ordinating the smart economy project? Is there one point of contact?

There is a point of contact within the Department of the Taoiseach at assistant secretary level who is chairing the administrative group.

Is the individual engaged in this work full time?

It is a matter in which the Taoiseach has taken a direct interest. A list of actions is formulated and each Minister is responsible for implementing certain actions.

It would be worth reading the former Taoiseach's reflections on the matter because they were instructive. In effect, he was saying that if something like this is to happen one cannot do it from within the existing system. He reflected on what he had and why some strategies did not succeed. He documented his insights on the matter and it would be instructive for the Minister to read those reflections.

I will examine what the former Taoiseach said but I have not read it yet.

By way of reference, the former Taoiseach was speaking specifically about the e-Government project.

We discussed that in the Estimates debate last year. Could I deal with the questions I have been asked? I will examine the former Taoiseach's comments in the context of whether it can strengthen the current Cabinet committee dealing with the implementation of economic strategy.

Deputy Bruton inquired about big successes. I was not sure whether he was referring to the Estimates themselves in terms of expenditure reductions or the wider performance of the Department.

The Minister's output successes.

They are distinct issues in a sense, especially in this Department. As Deputy Burton pointed out, the Department of Finance has a crucial central role in formulating economic strategy as well as simply managing its own internal finances at a time of major economic crisis.

On the area of wider management, the Department was faced with a difficult position from last June onwards, given the scale of the deterioration in the public finances and the evolution of the banking crisis, which became manifest from September on. Those were two huge challenges facing the Department in the past year. They required immediate, effective action. That action has been taken at all times. I accept that it has put my officers under tremendous strain. They have worked very long hours, often without reward, to ensure that the crisis is addressed. I have not found them wanting in the test with which they have been faced in the past year. I accept there has been a wider debate about the public service. We have a debate on another occasion about training, deployment and the development of capacity within the public service. I have been very well served by my officers in the past year. They have worked night and day to assist me in what has been a difficult period.

Deputy Burton asked a valid question when she inquired where I, as Minister, see the Department in a wider economic setting. When one is tackling an economic crisis, a financial crisis and a banking crisis, the question of a wider, strategic direction is very important. My Department has an economic division that examines general economic issues and debates with me on those issues so that we can have a longer, strategic perspective on all of the decisions of the Departments, above and beyond the simple perspective of the supervision of the Estimates, expenditure and the formulation of taxation and borrowing policy. That type of analysis takes place within my Department. The ESRI, which has an independent existence, has been of considerable assistance both to my Department and to me in that regard as well.

Deputy Burton referred to the structural and cyclical aspect of the current economic difficulty. The structural difficulty cannot be exclusively equated with previous failures of Government. I have openly acknowledged on several occasions that there were failures of Government policy, but there were failures on the part of the Opposition to hold the Government to account as well. The former Taoiseach, Dr. Garret FitzGerald, pointed that out in recent weeks. There were wider failures in the regulatory system.

Fianna Fáil never gives up, does it? The Minister has an answer for everything.

No. I am not providing an answer for everything.

The country is on its knees and the Minister is trying to defend the indefensible.

I am not providing——

A total of 400,000 people are unemployed.

Listen, Deputy——

The Minister is just filling in defence like a barrister.

The Deputy asked——

This is not a court, this is a Dáil committee.

Deputy Burton inquired about the structural and cyclical deficit. I am trying to answer her question. Is that all right?

The Minister is attacking the Opposition for the Government's actions.

No, I am saying that the mistakes that were made were collective mistakes.

No, they were not.

That is a very liberal use of language.

Can we make some progress this morning? I will not go further down this road and will assist the committee in answering the questions which have arisen.

Deputy Bruton asked what the big successes of the Department were in the past year. Its main success has been to stabilise the public finances and the banking sector in extraordinarily difficult circumstances.

The number of authorised staff for the Public Appointments Service, in accordance with the Estimate, is 149, of which 100 are working in the service and the balance in other Departments but who remain formally on the service's payroll. There is plenty of scope to review this as matters proceed.

The most vital question raised by Deputy Bruton is that of redeployment. There is no doubt there is a need for a far more flexible approach to redeployment throughout the public service. It is a key priority of the Government and we are in discussions with the relevant staff representatives on the matter. I am determined to make progress on this matter as it is absolutely essential.

Will the Estimates this year be based on the ability to redeploy staff from failing programmes to successful ones?

They will have to be. We must make progress on this issue. Flexibility in redeployment is essential. The Government has introduced a moratorium on recruitment; redeployment is the essential corollary of that operation.

The recent downgrading by one ratings agency was disappointing. It reflects the depth of the issues we are addressing in the economy, the public finances and the banking sector. The price of the downgrade, however, was incorporated many months ago into our cost of borrowing charges. In general, the assessments made by ratings agencies tend to follow rather than initiate patterns already established. Ratings agencies, like governments and regulators, are under considerable criticism for their failures in the past. They now tend to err on the side of caution when they erred on the side of optimism in the past. The National Treasury Management Agency maintains a constant dialogue with the ratings agencies and does good work in that regard. As a small country, economic news from Ireland tends to be significant in formulating and shaping the opinions of ratings agencies. The small relative size of our banking sector means that reputation damage done by one institution, like Anglo Irish Bank, has, abroad, been read across the entire banking system in an unfair manner. We must all bear this in mind when discussing the banking position in Ireland.

Investors and ratings agencies have been impressed in our discussions with them concerning the steps taken with the public finances and accept the Government has taken the correct ones. I do not want to initiate a fresh bout of confrontation but I have not welcomed plaudits from the ESRI. I simply said the ESRI has indicated the Government is taking the correct course of action; I did not say it is applauding the Government.

Regarding the recent investment roadshow in Europe, one reason investors were impressed was because the Government has taken the correct course of action in tackling the public finances. In several countries, investors detected unwillingness, whether for electoral or political reasons, on the part of their governments to take the correct course of action in their public finances. The general view is that Ireland took the correct course of action. The need to adjust our costs, including unit-labour costs, is at the heart of that. That is why it was essential to introduce the pension levy, not just as an element of public service reform in pension funding but to indicate that the public sector will follow the lead of the private sector in adjusting wage levels.

Will this be a continuing feature of public finance policy?

We need to refine the pension levy in the future. We must examine ways of ensuring it corresponds to the substantial future liability which the State has undertaken and that there is a reasonable proportion between what someone is required to pay and the ultimate pension they receive.

It has been a difficult year for the Department in the formulation of economic forecasts. If the Department, on occasion, got it wrong, so too did many other agencies as well as all the political parties in their forecasts in the 2007 general election.

The Minister is off again.

I have taken a close interest in the Department's capacity for forecasting. I have done everything in my power to ensure it is augmented, as it always has been, by consultation and dialogue with the ESRI, the Central Bank and the other agencies involved. The Department has done its best to formulate forecasts in very difficult circumstances.

Regarding tax targets, we were on target at the end of May. I accept the profile at the end of June will be very significant for the year as a whole. It is the profile which I will examine to see the overall trend for the year. Deputy Burton is correct; there are timing issues which affect the amounts in returns this year. However, those issues relate to the amounts that come in rather than to the forecasts. It is correct that November will be less significant this year.

The Minister cannot, as he naturally does, have the upside on everything. Corporation tax and other tax receipts were brought forward by technical changes. The Taoiseach chose on the eve of the recent elections, as did the Governor of the Central bank on the morning of the elections, to interpret those technical timing changes as being signs of green shoots of recovery. The Minister must think all Members on this side of the House are all purely green and cannot read. The Minister cannot have it every which way when changes to the systems bring the cash flows forward. I accept the technical changes to returns dates will mean the figures for May to July, inclusive, will be a bit better. What is, however, the expected deterioration later in the year?

The comfort I drew was that the forecast to the supplementary budget was met in the late May figures. I am waiting to see if the end-June returns are broadly on target. The profiles take into account the different timing issues to which Deputy Burton has correctly referred. In November, the corporation tax receipts will not be part of the returns but the self-employed tax returns will be still there. The profiles are now based on the revised schedules of payments. The crucial issue is correspondence with profile. I do not believe contrasting the figures with last year's is of any particular value.

I did not take the comments by the Governor of the Central Bank in the same sense as Deputy Burton did. I believe he was referring to wider European developments.

On the morning of an election, green shoots of recovery start sprouting all over the place even if they were to wither shortly after the polls closed. I believe that is a fair comment.

I have seen references to green shoots in different countries in recent weeks. I am not disputing the Deputy's right to make a fair comment.

Regarding Deputy Burton's question on the Government's strategy on job creation, the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment has primary responsibility in this area. My Department is in constant dialogue with it on attracting jobs to Ireland and preserving them here. If we want to have sustainable employment, we must be competitive. That is fundamental and what we have to attend to first. We simply cannot borrow money to create jobs which are unsustainable. We have to create sustainable jobs and that rests on boosting our exports. We have seen a very small decline in our exports this year compared to every other European country — I referred to this in the House yesterday. This is a very important matter because it is one of the aspects of our performance that, again, impressed international investors enormously, namely, the fact that our balance of payments is moving towards balance this year and a surplus in 2010 and 2011. We have a solid economic base and the challenge for us is to build on it. As Deputy Hayes said, the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment has a crucial part to play in that regard, while my Department brings its economic perspective to bear in our discussions with that Department.

What is of most concern to me is the number unemployed or who fear losing their jobs. While FÁS has taken some extra initiatives, the numbers involved are very small and way below what is required.

In fairness, the Deputy is aware that this is a matter for the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment.

This brings us back to Deputy Bruton's question. We are asking about FÁS-related matters. FÁS absorbs €1 billion of its Department's budget. I was asking the Minister the role of the Department of Finance in strategically affecting and influencing the work FÁS does because all around the country there are significant complaints about the availability of information or signing up to get on FÁS courses and so on. That is an enormous strategic issue. While it is within the ambit of the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment, clearly that Department is not able to cope. I was asking the Minister what his Department was doing strategically.

Perhaps the Labour Party spokesperson might raise that matter when the Estimates for the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment are being discussed.

The Department of Finance has a critical role to play in this regard. Does the Minister have a view on the matter?

If the Minister wants to comment, he can do so.

The Department of Finance has a major interest in labour market policy and how it can be used to create more jobs. We bring that perspective to bear in all our discussions with the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment which has primary responsibility for the management of its own Vote.

The Minister said there was a Cabinet sub-committee. Deputy Bruton was asking about the strategic management of the approach to creating new jobs, some with reference to e-Government, others to the smart economy and so on. We are asking how the Department of Finance sees its role in that regard. Just as the crisis in banking is dreadful, the employment crisis is also terrible.

There has been considerable reference to the smart economy document and how it is being implemented. My Department participates in that regard. There is the question of credit which is vital in the creation of jobs. My Department is involved in stabilising the banking system. There is also the question of the stability of the public finances, to which I will not return, as we have mentioned it already. We look at the Finance Bill and provide all the innovative measures we can to incentivise investment in the country. There is the allocation of significant resources to the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment by way of its Vote for various labour market measures. As a Department, we also take a strategic view on what the labour market requires and are in constant dialogue with the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment on those issues.

I have a specific question.

I will turn to the issue of the Revenue Commissioners and deal with supplementaries at the end.

This is a specific question for the Minister who has been given until 24 October by the European Council to achieve the general government balance guideline figure of 9.5%. Does he expect he will have to bring forward a supplementary budget? As there have been so many undershoots as regards forecasts, the European Council has set a deadline of 24 October for the Government to achieve the 2009 deficit target. Will a supplementary budget be required? Also, the European Union appears to have concerns about the Minister's——

Chairman, I am in the middle of dealing with Deputy Burton's questions and an entirely new substantive question has been raised which I really want to deal with because it is based on a complete misapprehension.

What is happening is that a report is being prepared on what we have done to date. There is no question of a further supplementary budget being introduced this year, full stop. That was made clear in the Budget Statement and is being——

I am reading verbatim from the EU's report.

I am sorry, but I am outlining the factual position for the Deputy.

Is the Minister saying the European Union is incorrect?

No, I am not. We are not disputing the fact that there is a report due at the end of October. That is normal and standard procedure, but it will be a report on the steps we have taken to date.

Is the Minister saying there will be no supplementary budget before then?

There is no question of a supplementary budget being introduced. I made it very clear in April that the measures announced brought to a conclusion the fiscal measures — four in number — initiated the previous July.

I want to ask about the forecasts made.

Again, I made it very clear at the time of the preparation of the budget that as far as the forecasts were concerned, were there to be further deterioration — this has not happened — it would have a cyclical origin and not require budgetary intervention by the Government.

What is the level of expertise within the Department of Finance in terms of the number of economists available——

We shall move on and come back to that question later.

I believe Deputy Burton is entitled to answers to her questions. I have no shortage of economic advice. In relation to the Revenue Commissioners——

There is no shortage of economic advice.

Deputy Burton has raised a very important issue in relation to the arrangements the Revenue Commissioners are making for businesses which have difficulties in discharging their liabilities. On the one hand, as the chairman of the Revenue Commissioners has pointed out, Revenue cannot function as a lender of last resort. On the other hand, it can, within that overall constraint, exercise as much indulgence as it can for businesses which are in difficulty. As I understand it, that is the stated position of the chairman of the Revenue Commissioners. Further queries on these matters should be directed to the chairman because I do not have operational responsibility. The care and management of Revenue are entrusted with the commissioners.

Deputy Burton turned to the question of the Revenue returns, an issue we discussed a few moments ago. Therefore, it is not necessary to return to it. I simply made the point that the end of May figure was a forecast, although, as I indicated in opening matters at the committee today, the figure for VAT was somewhat below what we had expected, which is a cause of concern. However, the end of June figures will give a much clearer picture for the remainder of the year.

There has been considerable interest expressed in the early retirement scheme. Much of my information is anecdotal, but there were 300 applications in the first month in the Civil Service. I do not yet have figures for the wider public service, but I anticipate a similar uptake figure. This would mean a total uptake figure of about 3,500 applications.

Is that between retirement and ——

No, for the retirement scheme alone. I understand the end date is 1 September and at that stage I shall be in a position to report on the extent of the take-up.

I should have told Deputy Burton that Revenue had established a unit in the Office of the Collector General to assist businesses with payment problems. Revenue is also reviewing its guidelines on inability to pay in audit settlements in conjunction with tax practitioners.

As regards the banks, I do not have a figure for Deputy Burton today for the likely cost of additional borrowing. It is important to emphasise that is not something that arises on the Estimates for my Department because, apart from the matter of a particular legal firm being retained, the Estimates do not contain any provision for payments to banks.

To whom is the Central Fund accountable?

I thought it was to the Department.

It is not before the committee today. I am not sure how it is taken——

Is it under the Minister's——

We are dealing with the Revised Estimates.

The moneys involved are likely to be enormous.

It is not before the committee today. I am in the hands of the committee. I am the Minister responsible, but it is not voted upon as I understand it. If Deputies want a separate discussion, I do not think I am in a position——

I suggest that the Minister send us a short report. It is important information about the cost of government.

It is not voted expenditure, which is why it is not before us today. The Secretary General accounts to the Committee of Public Accounts after the fact on the disbursements of the Central Fund. That has been the traditional practice of accountability.

In the context of the current crisis, the cost of borrowing is a very significant element.

We can provide Deputies with the information they require.

I simply do not have the information this morning because we are dealing with voted expenditure.

Deputy Burton referred to the banking system, and I said I would try to be as helpful as I can be. However, it is more helpful to have separate meetings on banks, and we have had at least two of them to date. With regard to the different banks and their capitalisation requirements, it is not a matter that it is in my mind that a particular bank is systemic. Lehman Brothers was also a systemic bank, although it had no retail branches. The committee met Mr. O'Connor and his fellow directors on Anglo Irish Bank earlier this week. We have had completed capitalisation arrangements for Bank of Ireland and Allied Irish Bank. There is no suggestion of a capitalisation arrangement regarding Irish Life and Permanent, EBS or Irish Nationwide. That is the position prior to the establishment of the National Asset Management Agency. The position will clearly have to be reviewed in the context of the formulation of plans for the National Asset Management Agency.

The Minister of State, Deputy Mansergh, will be before the committee to speak about decentralisation. The performance awards scheme has been suspended since the supplementary budget.

From when was it was suspended?

It was suspended in February, prior to the supplementary budget, around the time of the third adjustment and pension levy.

So far there are three.

There are carry over implications.

Deputy Burton also inquired about Civil Service remuneration and the review body on that. I have asked the existing review body on remuneration in the public sector to examine the remuneration of higher level posts in the public service, with the following terms of reference. It must examine and advise the Government on the levels of remuneration currently appropriate to certain posts covered by Report No. 42 of the review body, having regard to changes in economic circumstances and in pay levels in the private sector since that report, and taking account of the pay of comparable posts in other countries with similar economic and political systems, especially those in the eurozone. I expect that the examination will be complete by the end of September 2009.

I was asked about banking consultancy services at the Department. I indicated that Merrill Lynch was retained by the NTMA and, accordingly, the Central Fund. The cost of interest associated with the borrowing is borne by the Central Fund, as well as those who service the national debt. I should make it clear that a substantial management fee is being extracted from the recapitalised banks, which will cover the cost of consultancy services that were retained by the NTMA. Arthur Cox was retained by my Department for legal advice. The Estimate shows an increase of €1.4 million for 2008, of which €1.1 million was recouped under the guarantee. The guarantee contains a separate charging provision for such services, separate from the general payment provision we discussed before.

Does the Minister suggest that the fees for Merrill Lynch come out of the Central Fund?

Who then——

They are expenses of the NTMA and these come out of the Central Fund.

In the case of Merrill Lynch, who sets the level of fees? Was there any competitive tendering for any of these fees? It seems very high. I was not overwhelmed by the quality of its reported advice.

The NTMA was left to decide what should be done in the very unusual circumstances of last September. Several firms were contacted, but the bulk of them were conflicted for various reasons and the NTMA decided that Merrill Lynch should be retained and it negotiated an appropriate level of payment with the firm. The Department was also consulted.

What will be the final payment to Merrill Lynch? Will it be about €6 million?

Again, this is difficult because we are talking about voted expenditure. I do not have the exact figures, but it could be in the order of the figure mentioned by the Deputy. The various management fees imposed on the guaranteed institutions under the guarantee agreement will be sufficient to discharge that sum.

In regard to the ESRI, I already discussed the structural and cyclical deficit and I will not return to it at this stage.

Shall we call it a truce or a draw?

We will move on to deal with the Votes for those questions that have not been asked already.

On staffing numbers, it is notable that every agency under the Department of Finance, including the Department itself, has increased its staff level in 2009. This seems surprising. The only agency that has reduced staff numbers is the Revenue Commissioners. That is also somewhat surprising. We are not told about the staffing of the secret service, so it appears that it is going down. The Minister has spent well more than 12 months grappling with the public finances, so it is surprising that he is increasing staffing in his own Department and in all the agencies.

We have had many general questions.

That is a very specific question.

Does the Deputy want to go through each of the Votes as such?

No, not particularly.

So the Deputy wants to ask a question about staffing.

Yes, but I have one general question. In his statement, the Minister said that the majority of future budgetary adjustments would have to be borne on the spending side of the Government account. The existing information published by the Department indicates that in 2010 more than 50% of the adjustment will be on the taxation side. Does this represent a change of policy from the Minister?

To be clear, with regard to staffing levels in my Department, the Deputy is referring to the authorised figures rather than the actual figures.

These are the figures provided to us.

As I understand it, in January 2008 the actual figure was 627 and the actual figure by October of last year was 615.

I am referring to the figures published in the 2009 Revised Estimates book which the Minister provided. It states at page 6 that the numbers for last year in the Department of Finance were 580 and for this year were 614.

The authorised numbers are not the actual numbers. Some of the figures given in the statistics are authorised rather than actual numbers. There has been a reduction in the actual number.

These are the numbers provided to the Oireachtas for every Department in the same fashion. If these are bogus numbers——

The Deputy has raised a valid question and I will have it examined and will reply to him. In many Departments there are notional numbers as distinct from actual numbers. I recall many years ago in the Department of Defence the military had a notional strength and an actual strength. This appears to have affected some of these figures.

The Minister for Defence, Deputy O'Dea, would not like to hear the Minister saying this.

The figures are presented as underpinning the salaries and wages we are committing to pay. It seems they are more than notional. The figures also detail how much overtime these individuals were worth.

As I understand it, the numbers are down. I will have the matter reviewed and give a detailed reply to Deputy Bruton explaining the statistical presentation. I can assure the Deputy that the numbers in my Department have reduced over the past year.

With regard to the Secret Service, it of course does not have any staff complement. The requests are made on behalf of those organisations already in existence that provide our secret services.

In regard to the spending, which was a wider issue of principle on which Deputy Bruton asked, it was made clear by me in the budget that while there was an indicative figure for taxation and an indicative figure for expenditure next year, the indicative figure for taxation was a maximum whereas the indicative figure for expenditure was a minimum. That was stated in the budget. It has been Government policy since the supplementary budget.

What is the current policy? Given current policy, more than 50% will be raised in tax next year — that is what the Minister put into his budget.

No, there has to be——

Is there now a different indicative figure?

No, the indicative figures are as stated in the Stability and Growth Pact submission to the Commission. However——

Is there now a different figure?

No, not now. As I stated at the time of the supplementary budget, when the Deputy was in the House, the figure for taxation was a maximum whereas the figure for expenditure was a minimum. In other words, since the budget I have left myself that margin of manoeuvre. There is nothing new in what I said today in that regard.

I have two questions for the Minister under Vote 6, subhead B, in regard to the ESRI. While the Minister referred to the advice the ESRI has given, there is a €2.2 million drop in the grant-in-aid to the institute. The ESRI is a private company limited by guarantee. What effect will this cut of €2.2 million have on its work? With regard to subhead P, can we get a full breakdown on the €5.4 million for consultancy and other services?

First, the ESRI is a private company limited by guarantee which receives a grant-in-aid from the Exchequer. This supports it in carrying out the dissemination of independent policy research promoting understanding of issues related to economic and social development. The institute has been in receipt of a grant-in-aid since the early 1960s and this was the vast bulk of the institute's revenue until the mid-1970s. The proportion of ESRI revenue accounted for by the grant-in-aid has fallen appreciably since then and is forecast to represent just below 23% of its gross income in 2009. This represents a slight increase in the share of its income represented by the grant-in-aid in 2007 and 2008. To clarify the point raised by Deputy Flanagan, there was a once-off €2 million capital allocation in 2008.

The main source of the ESRI's self-generated income is commissioned projects. In 2009 its gross income from commissioned projects is expected to be approximately €11.2 million. The balance of the non-grant-in-aid income is derived from members' subscriptions, sale of publications and rental income from one floor of its new premises. The matter referred to by the Deputy was a once-off capital timing issue which created the substantial figure he noted.

May we have a full itemised breakdown on the figure for consultancy services?

I will provide a full breakdown for the Deputy at a later date.

My question follows on from Deputy Bruton's earlier question. In regard to the reductions in staff numbers and so on, the Minister gave an indication in his budget speech and subsequently that certain professional services, particularly on the health side, such as occupational therapists, speech and language therapists and so on, would be exempt from the moratorium. There is much confusion at present because there are people throughout the country on rolling temporary contracts, some of whom are in the system for permanent posts arising from vacancies. Does the Minister know what is happening in regard to such people? Does the confusion go all the way up to the Minister's Department?

We were given a general indication that the HSE was operating some kind of an exemption because these were so-called front line services which were regarded as a priority. However, there are people in the interview process who were even offered jobs and then, because the job was not filled before the set date, they are being told there may be another panel next year or the year after. In the meantime, however, their rolling contracts may also be ended. I believe this applies throughout the country — I see the Chairman is nodding agreement. Can the Minister help us to understand how the HSE is approaching this issue?

It is in the HSE context. The arrangements have been modulated in the education and health sectors, specifically in regard to the health sector.

A moratorium applies to the health sector but there is flexibility to allow for the continued development of integrated health care, especially primary and community care, care of the elderly and care of those with disabilities. Based on the 2008 employment outturn and the provision for development posts in the 2009 budget — 225 posts in cancer care and disability services — the opening employment control ceiling for the health sector is 111,800. There is a general moratorium on recruitment, promotion and acting appointments to all management and administrative grades and all other grades in the health sector except for hospital consultants, speech and language therapists, occupational therapists, physiotherapists, clinical psychologists, behavioural therapists, counsellors, social workers and emergency medical technicians. Posts in these key grades which become vacant may be filled and a limited number of new posts may be created within the overall numbers ceiling and moratorium policy. In regard to the temporary contract issue, while I do not have a specific answer for the Deputy, I will undertake to get it for her.

The point is that in the normal course of events, some people on temporary contracts are on interview panels and then a hospital, such as Blanchardstown hospital, calls for them.

Now, however, those who in effect were being offered a permanent position are effectively in no man's land because that offer fell over the period when the moratorium came into force. The understanding is that there was provision made for an exemption, as the Minister stated. Should persons who find themselves in this situation go back to the Health Service Executive or should we present their cases to the Minister? There is no clarity in this regard. Staff affected include occupational therapists in my local hospital.

As I said, I will have to clarify the position for the Deputy.

I will provide the Minister with the detail.

As I understand it, the Deputy is referring to persons who are employed on a temporary basis and had an expectation of a permanent appointment. Is that correct?

I am referring to persons who received an offer of permanent employment. They have done all the interviews and were appointed to a panel. It is difficult to understand what the Health Service Executive intends in general and specifically on this issue.

I will raise the issue with the executive and communicate the response to the Deputy.

Will the Minister send us a copy of the note he read out?

The situation he outlined corresponds with people's general understanding of what was put in place, but that does not seem to be what is happening. May we send representations to the Minister on the matter? Inquiries to the Health Service Executive may not be answered for six months.

I ask that the Deputy not set me up as an administrator of the Health Service Executive. As I understand it, if a person was offered a position, he or she can accept it. I am aware of several similar cases.

We must rely on that assurance.

I have a question on the State Laboratory in reference to the recent crisis in the pig sector. Is the 30-day turnaround target for testing adequate? Is the escalation process adequate where adverse results have been identified? It is perhaps a matter of concern that the identification of the problem with pork products at the end of last year seems to have come not from the State Laboratory but from other agencies picking up on deviations. Have new targets been set for the State Laboratory in terms of turnaround times and escalation processes as a result of the lessons learned in that crisis?

In respect of the State Laboratory's work for the coroner's service, the turnaround target is not 30 days but 75 days. This has been a source of considerable frustration for persons experiencing bereavement. I welcome recent indications that the State Laboratory is becoming more forensic, although that may not be the appropriate word. It seems to be grading different types of tests in order to produce quicker turnaround times. Is this effort a response to the needs of the bereaved?

I am familiar with the issue because it was of concern to me when I had responsibility for the coroner's service as Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform. There was a problem in that all samples were sent to Beaumont Hospital for screening. As a result, there were considerable delays in the provision of samples in the conclusion of inquests, which was causing considerable distress for families. To resolve this, the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform transferred a post to the State Laboratory to enable all samples for the State pathologist to be submitted directly to the laboratory rather than being sent to a hospital for screening. This will result in much shorter turnaround times overall for samples. The State Laboratory is developing new higher throughput, high resolution analytical methods that will enable samples to be analysed for a greater range of drugs at lower levels and within shorter turnaround times. This will result in a more timely service being provided for coroners.

While the State Laboratory operates under my aegis, it provides a high quality analytical advisory service for all Departments and offices. It is of particular importance in agriculture and food, revenue protection, protection of the environment and public health. However, it also crucially provides the toxicology service to assist coroners' investigations. That is where the consumer issue arises in a direct way in the operation of the laboratory. The bulk of the work is statutory in nature and the analytical results and advice are used to assist coroners in establishing the causes of sudden death, to assist in the formulation and implementation of legislation and to comply with EU and national legislative requirements. The State Laboratory also provides representation on many relevant international and local bodies. Its total complement is 99 staff whose work is divided into three main areas, namely, agriculture and food, revenue, and the coroner's service and other departments.

In regard to the crisis in the pig industry last year, the problem originated in Northern Ireland and, therefore, came to the attention of the scientific authorities there in the first instance.

A question we are constantly asked by public and civil servants relates to the early retirement scheme. What is the Minister's current thinking on the taxation of ex gratia payments?

I reiterate what I said in my Budget Statement, namely——

I know what the Minister said in his Budget Statement. I want to hear his up-to-date thinking on the issue.

——that the views of the Commission on Taxation will be taken into account. It is not the practice of the Minister for Finance to indicate what payments will or will not be subject to taxation in a future budget.

That leads me to suspect the Minister has changed his thinking on the issue.

I have no thinking on the matter.

It is an issue of major concern for public and civil servants.

I indicated that I would study any recommendation the commission might produce. It is a matter for the commission.

What is the expected revenue this year from the pension levy, following the modifications in the budget?

The remuneration of the groups to which the deduction applies is €18 billion. Under the pension-related deduction as commenced on 1 March, public servants were paying an average of 7.5% of total remuneration, pointing to a pre-tax yield of €1.35 billion, of which €1.25 billion relates to the public service pay bill element and €100 million to the local authority element. A figure of €1.4 billion net of tax was mentioned in the press, which is incorrect. The €1.4 billion quoted represents a gross full-year saving from the pension-related deduction added to €50 million from other administrative adjustments, mainly reductions in travel and subsistence rates decided on by the Government at the time. The impact of tax revenue forgone is not factored into the figure for the pension-related deduction.

What effect will the modification in the last budget have on the figure of €1.35 billion?

That was outlined in the Budget Statement.

I refer to the February adjustment.

The modification is €150 million, leaving the deduction, on average, at 6.8%.

That would give a total levy income of €1.2 billion.

Yes. It is approximately €1.25 billion.

As there are no further questions, I thank the Minister and his officials for assisting the committee in our consideration of the Revised Estimates and output statements.

The committee will adjourn until 1.30 p.m. on Tuesday, 16 June when it will consider the Estimates and annual output statements for the Office of Public Works.

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