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SELECT COMMITTEE ON FINANCE, PUBLIC EXPENDITURE AND REFORM (Select Sub-Committee on Public Expenditure and Reform) díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 2 May 2012

Vote 19 - Office of the Ombudsman Revised

The second item on the agenda this afternoon is consideration of the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform Revised Estimate for 2012 Vote group. The Dáil has ordered that the following Revised Estimates for public services be referred this committee for consideration: Vote 11 - Public Expenditure and Reform; Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances; Vote 14 - State Laboratory; Vote 15 - Secret Service; Vote 16 - Valuation Office; Vote 17 - Public Appointments Service; Vote 18 - Office of the Commission for Public Service Appointments; and Vote 19 - Office of the Ombudsman. I welcome the Minister, Deputy Howlin, and his officials to the committee. The purpose of the meeting is to consider the Revised Estimates and the supplementary performance information regarding outputs and impacts of programme expenditure.

A draft timetable for the meeting has been circulated. Is it agreed? Agreed. I call on the Minister to make his opening statement.

I know the committee is very busy and it has already been involved in scrutinising the budget of my colleague, the Minister of State, Deputy Brian Hayes. I welcome the opportunity to present the 2012 Estimates for my Department's group of Votes. I will begin by making some general comments on the major developments in my Department's field of responsibility in order that the committee can better understand the changes in the format of the Estimate and the reasons for cyclical or temporary changes in funding requirements. That may obviate the need for some questions later.

The budget for my Department has increased by some €11.5 million, or 39%, compared with the 2011 outturn, or €6.9 million compared with the 2011 Estimate. The increase is required to enable my Department to meet its commitment to formulate and promote policies which drive efficiency, effectiveness and reform across the public service and to manage public expenditure at more sustainable levels. The increased funding requirement is expected to be temporary in nature, tailing off over the period to 2015 as various specific reform projects are completed. However, in view of the fact that the increase is substantial in percentage terms, I would like to set out for the committee the reasons for the increase.

Under the new format, my Department's outputs are divided across two programmes. The first, entitled public expenditure and sectoral policy, has responsibility for the delivery of major public expenditure reviews both in the capital and current areas. The comprehensive review of expenditure set the scene for the full delivery of our expenditure consolidation objectives, coupled with a range of major structural reform initiatives. By any standard, 2011 must be seen as a successful and productive year in terms of upholding Ireland's reputation as a country that has the capacity to manage its public expenditure commitments while driving forward with bold new reform measures. As every member knows, we are operating under the very constrained requirements of the troika, and it is imperative that the expenditure management element of my Department would operate expeditiously and well.

Expenditure on this programme has increased by approximately €3.8 million; some €2.3 million of this arises on PEACE and INTERREG funding, which is cyclical in nature and represents a commitment we have given under a multi-annual plan. I am sure we will deal with that in detail when discussing the subheads. Each of these programmes is a European-funded major capital initiative between North and South - in the case of the PEACE initiative - and between countries in the case of the INTERREG initiative. The cost of supervising and running these initiatives falls to my Department.

A further €550,000 arises from a change in accounting treatment whereby my Department bears accommodation and facilities costs that would previously have been borne on the Department of Finance Vote. Although it is an increase in my Department's Vote, it is Exchequer-neutral. As my Department and the Department of Finance share these services and buildings, it is a clarification of the costs of each Department. The remainder of the increase is accounted for by once-off funding of the upcoming EU Presidency, procurement training which the Minister of State, Deputy Hayes, discussed and National Lottery tendering costs. We will deal with those in detail later.

The second programme is entitled Public Service Management and Reform. I have spoken to this committee about the new reform and delivery office, which has a key role to play in driving, co-ordinating and supporting the implementation of the ambitious reform plan. For this reason, the reform agenda fund, formerly the change management fund, has been allocated a total of €1.73 million for 2012. I am sure that the committee will appreciate that there is sometimes a need to invest in change in order to support increased efficiency and effectiveness, and to reduce costs in the medium to longer term, and that is the purpose of this funding.

Expenditure on this programme has increased by some €8 million. This is primarily driven by a carryover of €800,000 in the pay bill savings from 2011, which will be used to cover temporary staffing capacity required during the progression of certain reform projects. There is also an increase of €1 million on the non-pay administrative budget arising from the change in accounting treatment mentioned previously and a provision of €4.63 million in respect of the development of a human resources shared services centre. This is a short term "spend to save" project, which will see certain human resources functions centralised in my Department. I have already explained to the committee that a number of shared services will be developed. There is provision for the development of a common shared human resource management facility for the Civil Service and this is the first to be progressed. There will be an increased provision of €1.4 million for the reform and delivery office. Provision had been made for some of this work in the 2011 Estimate but work was deferred pending critical reassessment of the merits of each project and development and publication of the public service reform plan which was done last November.

The Revised Estimates were presented to this committee this year and I will deal briefly with performance budgeting. The Estimates this year are being delivered in a new format that brings together an unprecedented amount of information so that Members of the Oireachtas, members of the public and decision-makers generally, can see at a glance the financial and human resource input costs, the key outputs and the impact indicators for each programme. Financial information is set out in strategic programmes which mirror the key objectives set out in the statements of strategy. For each programme, there is a clear presentation of the financial resources allocated to that area, broken down by subhead. This presentation also makes clear the administrative spend going towards each area and the level of staff resources involved. The public service activities are shown, with key outputs in each case. The intention is to give the committees a clear detail of how public funds are being spent. At the bottom of each Estimates page is a section showing the context and impact indicators. These indicators are intended to give a sense of whether the public service outputs are having an impact, in terms of better outcomes, which are being seen and experienced by citizens.

My Department has two strategic programmes, public expenditure and sectoral policy and public service management and reform. The administration headings from the previous Estimates are included for illustrative purposes but all of the expenditure detailed in Part II of the Revised Estimate for my Vote under Roman numerals is included in the financial resources allocated to the strategic programmes. In summary, this year's Estimates represent an important structural reform intended to assist the committee members in their task of scrutiny and of holding the Government to account.

However, the new Estimates are just one part of a broader project of reform in the area of accountability, performance and Dáil oversight. I wrote to the chairpersons of all Oireachtas committees in January to advise them of the new arrangements and the opportunities for greater engagement by public representatives in the Estimates formation process. In last December's comprehensive expenditure report, I announced a move to a modern medium-term expenditure framework, which involves the setting of expenditure ceilings for each Department over a three-year period. Therefore, the overall allocations available to each Department for 2013 are already known and the process of debate and engagement with Departments on how to prioritise within these allocations, can get under way at an early stage. This means the committee will know the expenditure ceilings for next year and the CRE documentation published in full in December 2011 show the options for savings. It would be useful for all committees to engage with line Departments to ensure that all the options are teased out and maybe indicate preferences in advance of the Estimates process proper. Committees should not feel constrained to wait until Estimates are produced later at the end of the year, or until the Revised Estimates are formally submitted, before engaging in the policy debate.

For this year, the objective is to maintain this momentum of achievement and of reform. We will meet all of our public expenditure targets, as we did last year. We will drive forward with further reform measures. For example, a new value for money code has already been put in place and it is published on the Department's website. Teams of evaluators are conducting targeted analyses of various public expenditure areas while Departments conduct more general value for money and policy reviews. I envisage that all of these analyses will come before committees in due course, to aid the work of members in scrutinising Departmental allocations, and indeed to contribute to the role of members in engaging in the Estimates deliberations at an earlier stage. The types of indicators included in the new Estimate are ones which my Department considered might be of most interest to the committee members. As indicated in my letter to committee chairpersons in January, I am more than happy to receive any constructive feedback from committees about how the process can be improved, and whether the indicators – both for outputs and for impacts – can be refined to give a clearer sense of what is being achieved or what is intended to be achieved. In my view, a close engagement with the Oireachtas on this matter can only improve the quality of scrutiny and improve the levels of accountability, both for Ministers and for public service managers, regarding what is being achieved and delivered with diminished public funds.

I will now deal with public service reform. Ireland is committed under the EU-IMF programme to reducing the overall size of the public service. This is also a key element of the programme for Government. The total net cost of the public service pay bill will be reduced from the high tide mark of 2008 to our target of 2015, by some €3.5 billion, or €3.8 billion from the pay bill peak in 2009. Delivering this reduction will require continued implementation of the moratorium on recruitment, with exceptions being limited to essential posts and the utilisation of redeployment as the primary mechanism to fill posts which have been approved. Significant progress is being made in reducing the numbers employed in the public service. The outturn for the end of 2011 stood at 296,900. This was the level of employment in the public service. Numbers have fallen to approximately 292,000 at the end of the first quarter of 2012. The Government is on track to meet its ceiling for 2012 of 294,400, exceeding the target set by the previous Government by a full two years. This is no small achievement and I recognise the impact this has had on public service workers and their families. In case there may be any confusion, these numbers are whole-time equivalent posts, so the actual volume of people leaving might differ sometimes from the number of whole-time equivalent posts. I salute the many people in our public services who are striving daily to deliver a first-class service within reduced resources and increased demand. In this context, I refer to the widespread concern expressed about the ending of the grace period at the end of February. I am pleased that considerable work has been undertaken in all areas of the public service in advance of that date and this has ensured that the pessimistic scenarios depicted by some have not materialised. The work done by transition teams, local management and particularly, by front line staff, has ensured that service delivery has been protected as staff have co-operated with widespread workplace change and greater efficiency.

The chief public concern before the termination of the grace period was with regard to the fate of front line services. In order to protect those services, the Government is committed to keeping control of public service pay costs. The Financial Emergency Measures in the Public Interest (No. 2) Act of 2009 and the Croke Park agreement, set the overall framework for public service pay policy. These instruments remain crucial to reducing the overall public service pay bill in line with the commitments made in the memorandum of understanding with the EU-IMF. I am required before the end of June each year to carry out a review of the operation, effectiveness and impact of this Act, having regard to the overall economic conditions in the State and national competitiveness. The next review will be completed by the end of June and it will be laid before both Houses of the Oireachtas.

The Government's overriding objective is not merely to control public service pay costs but also to have a more customer-focused, leaner, more efficient and better integrated public service which delivers real value for money. In that regard, the Croke Park agreement continues to serve as a key strategic framework for underpinning stability and economic recovery. Reports published by that body in the past year have provided evidence of solid and measurable progress under the agreement. However, we know there is much more to be achieved in every part of the public service, given the ongoing difficult economic and fiscal environment. The Croke Park agreement implementation body is currently carrying out its second annual review and progress under the agreement will be published in the coming weeks.

It is not only on the numbers and pay fronts that the public service must change. Given the challenges we face as a country, we need to achieve the most ambitious reform of our public service ever undertaken in the history of the State. The difficult situation means that reduced costs, innovation, flexibility and the delivery of streamlined services must be at the heart of our reform agenda.

Late last year I launched the Government's public service reform plan. It represents a comprehensive and integrated approach to reform, with clear time lines set down for the implementation of the 200 or so actions. The plan is based around five key commitments to change, namely, placing customer service at the core of everything we do, maximising new and innovative service delivery channels, radically reducing our costs to drive better value for money, leading, organising and working in new ways, and maintaining a strong focus on implementation and delivery. I have established a dedicated reform and delivery office, led by a programme director within my Department, to oversee and drive this reform programme. We have also put in place effective governance and other support structures to ensure a strong focus on delivering reform across all sectors of the public service.

We are reforming how people are managed through, for example, the performance management system, with a far greater emphasis than before on detecting underperformance and taking steps to rectify it. The introduction of the senior public service initiative has as its objective the strengthening of senior management and leadership capacity across the public service and supporting a greater degree of mobility across Departments and agencies. We are reforming how we are organised by implementing shared services, evaluating options for external service delivery, restructuring and reorganisation, online delivery and greater use of information and communications technology, and rationalising State agencies. My Department will drive the reform agenda during 2012 by continuing to introduce shared services models in areas such as human resource management, payroll, banking and pensions. Shared services will provide significant benefits through a reduction in duplication, streamlining of business processes and reduced transaction times. To lead this initiative, a shared services transformation manager with significant international experience in the shared services area has been appointed. Significant progress is already being made on the human resources shared service for the Civil Service, and payroll and pensions shared services projects are also being initiated. Sector-specific shared services implementation plans will be in place for all sectors by the end of June.

The business consulting unit in the reform and delivery office will lead business process improvement in Departments and agencies, with a renewed focus on administrative and service level improvements across the Civil Service. The same unit is also designing a pilot for a Government-level performance measurement system, to be known as GovStat. It is intended that GovStat will give online access to the public and Members of the Oireachtas to the performance measures used by the Government to demonstrate the success or otherwise of the delivery of public policies. In addition, the new baselining unit in the office will provide leadership of baselining across the public service, manage overall co-ordination, aggregation and analysis of baseline data and feed those data into the development of business cases. The baselining of administrative and back-office functions across the public service to ascertain the current level of performance will be an important step in developing a comprehensive business case in support of shared services. We will also identify and evaluate innovative and alternative models for delivering non-core public services in order to reduce costs, increase flexibility and allow public service organisations to focus on their core valued-added activities. There are opportunities for the best of the public and private sectors to come together, learn from each other and present new models for delivering services efficiently and effectively.

My Department, through the political reform unit, is also working to facilitate more transparent and better government. This includes policy and legislative changes covering freedom of information, protected disclosures or whistleblowing, regulation of lobbyists, and ministerial and Civil Service accountability. We are at an advanced stage in the preparation of the general scheme of a freedom of information Bill and I will be pleased to answer any questions in that regard. I expect to be in a position to introduce a Bill later this year to give effect to the commitments on freedom of information set out in the programme for Government. The Government recently approved the draft general scheme of the protected disclosures in the public interest Bill 2012, the heads of which I presented to the Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform. This Bill provides for an overarching legislative framework for good-faith reporting and protected disclosure on a uniform basis for all sectors of the economy covering the public and private spheres, including An Garda Síochána and the Defence Forces. It represents the first step in fulfilling the commitment in the programme for Government regarding the introduction of whistleblower legislation. Work is also progressing on the introduction of a legislative framework for the regulation of lobbyists. The Department is currently studying the submissions received, as part of the consultation process we have put in train, and is developing a policy paper on this issue. In addition, the nature of the accountability relationship between Ministers and civil servants is under review. A position paper is being developed to identify the legislative and other necessary changes to deliver on the programme for Government commitments in this regard, which are extensive in fundamentally altering the Ministers and Secretaries Acts.

To sum up, since it was established in July of last year, my Department has been involved in a very wide-ranging series of public service and political reforms, within the parameters of the public expenditure constraints on the Government and the commitments in the programme for Government. I am happy to record my appreciation of the work of all departmental staff. A great deal remains to be done in the years ahead, but I have every confidence in their continued ability to respond effectively to all demands placed on them

I will now turn to the 2012 Estimate for Votes 11, 12 and 14 to 19, inclusive, which are summarised on page 3 of the brief. Members will note that the proposed Vote group allocation has increased by €87.625 million, or 22%, compared with the 2011 outturn. I have already spoken in detail about the increase in my own Vote. The remaining increase is driven largely by an additional provision of €73 million in the superannuation and retired allowances Vote for 2012, which is under my aegis and provides for pension and lump sum costs for civil servants. This year's estimate for Vote 12 proposes a net provision of €418 million, an increase of €73 million, or 21%, on the 2011 provisional outturn. This increased provision is to cover the additional pension and lump sum costs of public service retirements arising this year with the expiry of the pension "grace period" on 29 February, with 1,424 people retiring before this date on the basis of their pre-cut pay. Staff who retired before the end of the period are subject to the public service pension reduction, which is 4%, on average, while those who retire after this date have pensions based on reduced pay levels, with an average pension reduction of 7%.

The Government is committed to getting our public finances back in order and doing so in a fair manner. That is why I increased the public service pension reduction in the last Financial Emergency Measures in the Public Interest Act to 20% on elements of pensions over €100,000, which impacts on a very small cohort of retirees. I take this opportunity to dispel some myths about civil servant pensioners and, in particular, those who retired during the grace period. The 2012 Estimate assumes an average pension for civil servants retiring this year of €29,000, with a corresponding average lump sum of €87,000. These numbers show that pensions for the huge majority of Civil Service retirees are modest. There is a great deal of focus on the top end of pensions in the public service, but the actual figures clearly show that these large pensions are not representative. It must be stressed that 38% of civil servants - a rather startling figure - are on occupational pensions of €10,000 or less, with 25% having pensions of €5,000 or less. While some of these may have other pension income, these numbers show that commentators should be very cautious about claiming that pensions are excessive in general. Some, quite hysterical, media reporting claimed that the youngest and brightest would leave in their droves with large redundancy packages. The reality is that there were no redundancies. The grace period provided for people to retire on a pension based on their pre-cut salary, calculated on the actual duration of service. There were no special benefits. Where staff were retiring before normal pension age, they received an actuarially reduced pension. Only 13 of those retiring were under the age of 50, all of whom did so on health grounds and with their pensions actuarially reduced.

There are once-off costs for people retiring, particularly with the payment of lump sums. However, it must be remembered that significant savings in the Government's pay bill will result, particularly with the non-replacement of staff and the subsequent reduction in numbers. Once the pension lump sum is paid in the year of retirement, the continuing pension cost is 50% of the original pay cost or less. This is a saving which will have been achieved without redundancies.

During the period from 2009 to 2015 it is expected that the Exchequer pay bill will reduce from €17.5 billion to €13.7 billion. This amounts to a saving of €3.8 billion from the peak. Even when the inevitable increase in public service pension costs over this period are included - this increase represents a liability about which people were aware and which has been maturing in the past 40 years - there will still be a saving of €3.3 billion or a reduction of almost 19%. In the first quarter of 2012 some 7,897 individuals retired from the public service. This and the fact that we entered 2012 below our target mean we will comfortably meet the overall target figure of 294,400 for the end of the year.

As regards the other Votes in the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform group, the committee has been supplied with a background briefing document by my departmental officials on all the Estimates being presented. I thank the Chairman and members for their attention. I commend the Estimates to the committee and will be happy to answer questions which might arise.

I thank the Minister. I will now invite the Opposition spokespersons, Deputies Sean Fleming, Mary Lou McDonald and Stephen Donnelly, to make their opening statements. I will not curtail anyone, but I ask the Deputies to confine their comments to the general agenda. I remind everyone that we will have an opportunity later to discuss the individual subheads in detail. If specific questions arise in the course of the Opposition spokespersons' initial contributions, these should be banked. I will not consult the Minister on them before we proceed to the subheads.

I welcome the Minister. The briefing notes we have been given show that we are being asked to approve eight Estimates in the Department's group of Votes. As the Minister indicated, the overall Estimate of expenditure in 2012 is €492 million. This compares with an outturn last year of €404 million. Therefore, there will be an increase of €88 million, or 22%, in overall expenditure. Why is the Minister seeking an increase in expenditure of this order across the group of Votes? I acknowledge his comments to the effect that the single biggest increase is in the superannuation and retired allowances Vote which I accept is due to the large number of staff who have retired. I will not drill down into the minutiae involved, but the increase in expenditure in the Minister's Department, excluding that which relates to the superannuation and retired allowances Vote, is 39%. The increase in the case of the State Laboratory will be 12%; in the case of the Secret Service, 76%; and in the case of the Valuation Office, 18%, while there will be a decrease in expenditure of 4% in the case of the Public Appointments Service. Expenditure in the Office of the Commission for Public Service Appointments will increase by 53%, while in the Office of the Ombudsman it will increase by 4%. This will result in a total overall increase of 22%.

Last week the Taoiseach introduced the Estimates for his Department and indicated that the overall increase in expenditure would be 10%. The Minister who is responsible for controlling public expenditure is seeking an increase of 22%. This does not sit well with members of the public, particularly as they are being asked to do one thing, while the Government is doing the direct opposite. It is a case of do as I say but not as I do. In the light of all the recent retirements, it is understandable that the figure for superannuation and retired allowances is increasing. Leaving that aside, all the other Votes in the group are showing increases from 4% to 76%. As stated, the increase in expendiure in the Minister's Department will be 39%.

How much of the €41 million has already been spent this year? If the Minister does not have the figure, perhaps he might provide it at a later date.

On every occasion he speaks, the Minister refers to Dáil reform, openness and transparency, revising the Estimates process and the fact that he has sent letters to every Oireachtas committee. Owing to the fact that a general election took place last year, the Estimates were not dealt with until July. However, we are back again in the month of May for no good reason and being asked to approve expenditure already incurred. One third of the money has certainly been spent and most of the remainder has probably been contractually committed.

Immediately prior to the Minister's arrival, the sub-committee discussed the Estimates for the Office of Public Works. Not only has most of the money been allocated already, the Minister of State, Deputy Brian Hayes, has also indicated that 50% of the 2013 allocation is contractually committed to projects and that 40% of the 2014 allocation is also so committed. What is the purpose in the Minister asking us to approve an Estimate for his Department when the overwhelming portion of the money involved has either already been spent or is contractually committed? This does not reflect a proper Estimates process. We do not want to see the Minister coming before us again in November with next year's Estimates. No business discusses its budget for the year halfway through the year. I am sure the Minister agrees with me.

The Minister referred to the volume of information contained in the Estimates. There is an inconsistency in this regard, about which I am not happy. On 3 July last year the Minister provided output targets for 2011 under each of the headings in his Department's Estimate. However, the briefing material with which we have been provided does not contain a comparison between these targets and the actual outputs for 2011. We could be asked to approve any set of outputs in the absence of any reference to the output targets. There is no reference in the documentation to the targets not met. In addition, something which cropped up during the year and to which no reference was previously made has been listed as an output achieved.

I inform the Minister who has overarching responsibility for public expenditure that there are major gaps in the documentation presented by various Departments. The 2011 output targets are not included in the Revised Estimates presented to the sub-committee by the Minister. If they were, we would be in a position to see what happened last year versus the actual targets set. Therefore, I cannot have confidence in the 2012 targets contained in the document before us. This is because, based on the way the information has been presented, the documentation for next year will contain nothing to indicate whether the targets for 2012 were achieved. It is unsatisfactory that there is such a major gap in the documentation.

Reference is made in the briefing material to the rationalisation of State agencies. The Minister has indicated that 48 such agencies are expected to complete either amalgamations or rationalisations by the end of the year. In the specific case of the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform, the Office of the Ombudsman is to amalgamate with the Commission for Public Service Appointments. In a reply to a parliamentary question tabled on this matter earlier in the year the Minister indicated that legislation would have to be introduced in order for this process to be completed. In reply to a parliamentary question tabled for yesterday he referred to 46 other bodies which were to be critically reviewed by the end of June, which is only a few weeks away.

I would have thought that some reference would have been made to the critical review in terms of the agencies under the aegis of the Department, namely, the National Development Finance Agency, the Valuation Office, the State Laboratory and the Office of the Ombudsman. Perhaps the Minister would comment on that in his reply. The reply I received last night included the information that the Office of the Ombudsman is to amalgamate with the Data Protection Commissioner. Also outlined were related actions, including the merging of the functions of the Language Commissioner and the back-office functions of the Office of the Ombudsman for Children, into the Office of the Ombudsman. A lot is going into that new organisation which we had thought was merely an amalgamation of the Commission for Public Service Appointments and the Ombudsman. I invite a comment on that point also.

In his script the Minister referred on page 10 to opportunities for the best of the public and private sectors to come together to learn from each other, to present new models for delivering services efficiently. What are his views on secondments between the private sector and the public sector? One of the best ways of enhancing commercial knowledge in the public service is to have people from the private sector being seconded for a 12 month or two year period and vice versa – people from the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform and the procurement areas could be seconded to major private sector organisations rather than just coming together contractually. It would have to be done in an orderly manner with proper controls but secondments could be of major benefit.

On staffing levels, the Minister said the average lump sum payment was €87,000. On retiring, a person gets one and a half year's salary. That would mean the average salary was €60,000. That is skewed by some very high salaries. We also understand that the majority of people were on much lower salaries but the figures presented imply that the average salary was €60,000 and the average pension is €29,000 or €30,000.

I will provide a printout for the Deputy.

Perhaps the Minister could also flesh out the details. I have put most of my questions together at this early stage. The Chairman can bank them. That will help in the later part of the meeting as I will not have as many questions.

Deputy Fleming should track them to ensure that they are addressed.

The Minister made much of his own achievements in the past year in respect of public sector reform. As I said previously to him, he uses the crude mechanism of head-count reduction as some kind of manifestation of reform but it is nothing of the sort. The concerns that existed prior to the beginning of March on the delivery of front line services and the resourcing of same still exist. They were not hysterical or hyped up. They are very real. The Minister is probably aware of that.

The only additional item other than numbers reduction to which the Minister consistently returns is that of shared services. That is a good idea. It is a necessary step which I fully support but it does not represent the stuff of radical public sector reform. It represents efficiency measures and a bit of catch-up.

Has Deputy McDonald read the reform plan?

It is misleading to dress it up in that way.

There are 100 measures involved.

I wish to address the way in which the Minister has gone about introducing change and his attitude towards the highly paid. We have always made the point that it is a small minority within the public service and the Civil Service. That illustrates the Minister's timidity in terms of any kind of real, substantial, cultural change within the sector.

I believe nine appointments have been made at the level of Secretary General and assistant Secretary General. How many of those appointed came from outside of the public sector? The Minister made a commitment in the programme for Government that one third of all appointments at principal officer level and above would be reserved for candidates outside the Civil Service. I invite the Minister to report back to us in that regard.

I note under subhead B.10 on consultancy and other costs that there has been a hefty increase in terms of the Top Level Appointments Committee, TLAC. The spend is up substantially to €41,000. I am curious to hear more detail in that regard.

On high pay and pensions, I wish to ask why the Minister and the Minister for the Environment, Community and Local Government are still hedging their bets and doing nothing in respect of the withdrawal of added years and special severance gratuity payments for city and county managers. Both the Minister and his colleague, the Minister, Deputy Hogan, have said that they are considering it and that they will think about it. I fail to see why it has not been done. The Minister will be aware that there have been a couple of headline cases recently such as the retired Waterford county manager and the Limerick city manager who retired on a huge pension and whopping additional payments. I would welcome if the Minister could address the issue for me.

It is ironic that the "Minister for cutbacks" as the Minister is affectionately known, perhaps outside this building-----

Only by Deputy McDonald.

I know it is done with such affection.

It is with the deepest of regard and affection. It is more than I who refer to the Minister in those affectionate terms.

The Deputy is aware that it is totally reciprocated.

It is ironic that the Minister has come looking for an increase in his allocation.

I have explained the reason.

The Minister has explained it. He has given us some of the rationale around pensions and other issues but it is a difficult matter to explain, in particular when the Minister's political twin, the Minister for Finance, Deputy Noonan, was so aggressive yesterday and was threatening people in respect of a vote we will have on 31 May. He said that if they do not do as they are told that they will get what is coming to them. I am clearly paraphrasing. Those were not his exact words but that was the sentiment of what he said. The Minister might care to reflect on that as he seeks an increase in his own spending capacity. I have other detailed issues to raise in respect of the various subheads but I might leave it at that for the moment.

The Minister is very welcome to the sub-committee. I can confidently say that after just more than a year as a Member of Dáil Éireann that the concept of Dáil oversight is a joke. It is an oxymoron. At a meeting of the sub-committee a few months back the Minister talked about the fact that he was going to bring his reform plan to the Dáil. I suggested that he could bring it to the committee to get its input. The Minister's response was that he was elected to govern.

I did bring the reform plan to the committee.

No, not in draft form. The Minister told us what he had decided. There is no oversight to that. To date, the Government has used the guillotine on 68% of Bills. When the capital expenditure programme was announced in the Dáil, my response was that I could not say whether it was good because the Minister had not given any detailed cost-benefit analysis. I asked if he could supply the analysis but he said "No". That is on the record. He said I could go and chase them up in the Departments if I liked. It is clear that no Dáil oversight is possible. Every section of the Social Welfare and Pensions Bill that was discussed last week was guillotined. There was no poverty impact analysis, gender impact analysis or legislative impact analysis. We were given briefings. Everything was guillotined and the Bill was voted through.

The Joint Committee on Finance Public Expenditure and Reform tried to send an invitation to Governor Honohan and the whip was applied, which means that the Executive reached into the committee's private session and dictated to us the wording of an invitation to somebody. The Technical Group asked the Government for some secretarial support.

The Deputy did not show up for it.

What are you talking about? I was here. You may not have been here but I was here.

Deputies should speak through the Chair. Deputy Donnelly should conclude his remarks and speak through the Chair.

The Technical Group asked for secretariat support-----

We are going back to the Estimates every day now, are we?

The Minister is the person who talks about Dáil oversight, and I am giving him several examples to highlight there is not Dáil oversight. His mindset is that he has been elected to govern. I could continue to give examples of the fact there is not Dáil oversight, and it is very damaging to the country.

In terms of the public service reform numbers, I have a question for the Minister on the strict decision to reduce public pay and pensions through numbers and not through pay, as enshrined in the Croke Park agreement. I would like to hear the Minister's thoughts on that. I do not believe it is the right approach; there could be a mix in that regard. We are seeing an example of that in schools where principals are losing many important ancillary posts because there cannot be any movement on core pay and pensions. It is numbers instead of rates. I would like to hear the Minister's views on that.

In terms of the Estimates and the review, the Minister said in his statement that the data have got much better. I shudder to think what it must have looked like because it does not say in this document what the 2011 targets were and therefore we do not know how much has been overrun. We do not know the objectives that were set. They are not here. It just indicates the outturn for 2011 but-----

Presumably the Deputy has the 2011 document.

-----we do not know how the Minister has done in terms of the target. We just know how much he spent.

Last year's Estimate is available. He can have it.

Yes, but in terms of management information, which the Minister is saying he is trying to create and make good, it would be extremely useful.

There are five years of it on the website if the Deputy wanted it but I do not produce documentation every-----

We will come back to it.

In terms of the spend, there is an increase on seven of the eight items. Obviously, the Minister is looking for 22% more money.

In terms of the subheads, I did a quick count and for every reduction against 2011 there are 3.2 increases. A constituent wrote to me recently and said that the body politic, and he included me in that, is not acting like the management team of an organisation in receivership, and when we look at this I can understand where he is coming from. I counted 84 increases versus 26 decreases. I liked the Minister's opening statement. His words were very nice. I have read his reform plan and at the time my comment was that it contained some great stuff but is mechanistic. Real reform will only work if the people at the top lead through example and so far I have not seen the Cabinet leading by example in terms of Dáil oversight and getting the right information. I am very disappointed in that regard.

I will proceed to the Vote and the subheads, although I am conscious that some of the issues raised now relate more to the general tenor of what the Minister was saying than to any individual items. I will not say we will not come back to those issues. We should come back to them if the Deputy wants them addressed but I am required to go through each one of the subheads. We will find an opportunity to allow the Minister come back in on those issues if they do not arise under a subhead. In other words, the practical working out of this process is what the Deputy is talking about.

On Vote 11 - Public Expenditure and Reform, in terms of the briefing document Deputy Donnelly was referring to, between pages 4 and 35 of the briefing-----

Chairman, before you proceed, I request the opportunity to ask the Minister a question.

No, not separately from going through the Votes. I will not do it that way but we will not leave the room without everybody having an opportunity to ask a question if they wish to do so. However, I am required to deal with each separate heading.

I would like it answered as well.

Absolutely, yes. We have the briefing document from the Department and we will go through each one of the administrative subheads shortly but I want to speak about the process, which is important. The secretariat has prepared for our use a document which gives the members the opportunity to assess issues such as the outputs. That is work the secretariat has done at the request of the committee, and that material is before us. In other words, material has been extracted from the Revised Estimates Volume and put together in a way that helps us apply our analysis and scrutiny to the material the Department has published.

There is an issue as to the extent the Department should be guided by us on the specific information we want from it. The Minister said in his contribution that the Department has produced the type of information the Department judged would be useful to us. I may be paraphrasing him on that. I want to be clear on that as Chairman of this committee. If that is not the type, extent and nature of the information we require, the committee should be in contact with the Department and should ensure our views as to the nature and quality of the information we are getting should be acted on. On behalf of the committee I will insist that be done. I will do everything I can to ensure that would be done because, as a parliamentary committee, we have to engage in the analysis. It is not for the object of our analysis to tell us what information is appropriate to us. We should be able to set out the information we want and, if we are not getting it, to look for it. I very much take on board what Deputy Donnelly said about the specifics of how we go about the work, and Deputy Fleming raised it as well. If we are not getting the type of information we want, we should communicate that to the Department and look for such information. We can come back to that in the course of the discussion but I want to record that at the outset.

On Vote 11 - Public Expenditure and Reform, subhead i, salaries, wages and allowances, are there any comments or questions on that? I call Deputy Creed first and then Deputy McNamara.

In respect of the subhead, I ask the Minister to comment in respect of salaries, wages and allowances. We heard a good deal in recent weeks about a review being conducted by his Department generally on allowances across the public service. The Minister might wish to avail of this opportunity to update the committee on that and where he sees that review of allowances going. He might also give us some information on the allowances payable in respect of salaries and wages in his own Department.

I raise that issue in the broader context of the Croke Park agreement but also in light of what appears to be a willingness among the trade union movement to sacrifice their young, so to speak, in respect of their lower salaries and changes in pension entitlements, which are necessary reforms, but how far can we go down that road of inequality without asking for the views of those who we are led to believe are covered under the Croke Park agreement in terms of their entitlement to salaries, wages and allowances? To where does that protection extend? It appears unsustainable in the long term that that inequality in the workplace in respect of people carrying out functions that are similar can be remunerated in a different fashion. That is not sustainable in the long term. In the context of a review of allowances, can we expect some progress by the Minister in respect of those continuing entitlements, reform, restructuring, etc.?

I will take a question from Deputy McNamara and then call the Minister, if that is agreeable.

My question related to Vote 15 but I can ask it now if the Chairman wishes.

If the Deputy would not mind, I ask him to wait until we reach that Vote.

Regarding the subhead, administration, salaries, wages and so on, members will understand that my Department was only established legally in July. In fact, we underspent in terms of the salaries until I got the structure the Government wanted to run my Department. On the salaries and the actual numbers side, we are a Department in transition. We are a brand new Department and it was important to get the drivers of change in place.

Deputy Donnelly is a relatively new Deputy but people have very high expectations of success in terms of turning the juggernaut. We are a year in office. We have established a brand new Department to bring about significant reform on the expenditure, public service and political sides. I refer to very big agenda items that have been festering for decades in many cases. The first step is to put the structure in place. We have a good structure with the Department. It certainly represents a commitment by the Government to drive change. We have a political reform unit.

We will give the members enough legislation to keep them well occupied in this committee. It will be ground-breaking on the political reform side. It will bring back the strengths of the Freedom of Information Act and deal with the whistleblowers legislation with which I, the Minister for Communications, Energy and Natural Resources, Deputy Pat Rabbitte, and others have been trying to deal for a decade. It will deal with the registry of lobbyists, a theme of the tribunals over the years, and with much more. On the reform side, it is a matter of restructuring the public service fundamentally. This is our agenda. Even constructing the mechanism for reform has been daunting. It took months to get the legislation through, as the members know.

Let me address Deputy Creed's specific question. I am conscious that some of the journalists in the Gallery have made much of my answering a question on these matters and of our reviews of virtually everything. Every area of public expenditure is being examined for value in my Department. We discovered there are over 800 separate allowances. Obviously, each line Department knew what was available. We have asked for a business case on each of the allowances. Each line Department has, by and large, produced a business case for or against each allowance, and my Department is going through them systematically. We will be making decisions as soon as is practicable in regard thereto.

As the Minister for Education and Skills rightly said, some of the allowances will not be regarded as such. In our discussion last week with Deputy McDonald, the point was made that a Minister's allowance is actually a salary. The salary of the Chairman of this committee is called an allowance. There are many payments that are core payments and there are many allowances that are actually salaries for promotions, and they will be acknowledged as such.

There are allowances that will be regarded as having run their course. We are considering how all these matters can be addressed. When we have concluded the business case analysis, I will be making announcements thereon. I will be happy to revert to the committee to go through the results in some detail at that stage.

Deputy Fleming raised a number of questions of a general nature in respect of the overall increases. He queried the timing of the Estimates and how much of what we are examining has already been committed and spent.

I deliberately constructed a fairly long introduction to answer that question. It is a little disconcerting that the first question after my having listed the individual reasons for an increase sought the reasons for the increase. It is as if I had not outlined my reasons at all. It is all set out in the statement. One reason concerns pensions and another concerns the cyclical nature of funding associated with the INTERREG and PEACE projects. These are substantial capital projects amounting to hundreds of millions of euro that require oversight. Some are associated with the disaggregation of costs between my Department and the Department of Finance. Last year, these costs were borne entirely by the Department of Finance. I have set out all the reasons. When we go through each subhead, I will deal with them specifically.

On the other points made, some 25% of funding has been spent four months into our programme.

On the question of timing, Deputies can say it is late in the day and that we should have acted earlier. I agree entirely with Deputy Fleming on this. I hope I am not shocking my colleague, the Minister for Finance, in saying I would prefer the budget to be earlier in the year. I would like committees to be engaged now. Deputy Donnelly does not need me to set out what I want to do for him to engage in the Estimates process. The comprehensive review of expenditure has laid out virtually every option. If the Deputy has new options to bring to the table for any Department, he should start the Estimates process and bring in the Accounting Officers immediately. That is what I have said to him and what I have asked each Chairman in writing to do. The members must also play their part.

We need to change. Change will be achieved over time. Everything normally falls back to the default position but there is no reason one cannot start interrogating Ministers or Accounting Officers to ascertain the ceiling for the next year according to the three-year ceilings already provided. Has the committee discussed the options it is thinking about? Let us get into the minutiae now. There is no reason we cannot have a proactive Dáil constructing Estimates in addition to reacting to them. This means the committee must take the initiative.

Deputy Fleming referred to matching the outputs. We will provide the documentation that the committee asks us for, including, for example, last year's Estimates and outturns. The document can be as big as the committee wants. We presumed the committee had last year's documentation. Using my Department's website, one can analyse expenditure, numbers and costs covering years before the creation of the Department. The details are in the data pack on the website. If the Chairman achieves consensus on how the committee wants material presented, we can act on it.

Let me consider the rationalisation of State agencies. Reference was made specifically to the Ombudsman. I met the State Ombudsman and the Ombudsman for Children. The idea in the programme for Government is to match the back-office supports to avoid duplication. There are protection issues to be considered regarding the offices and we must proceed carefully. We will be introducing legislation on foot of a number of recommendations made by the Ombudsman to reform her office. She has appointed a new director very recently through the TLAC process. I hope the legislation will be provided this year.

On service delivery and secondment to the private sector, I would like to see a lot more movement from the public to the private sector. A number of private sector companies are working for us on projects, including on scoping the tendering procedure for the national lottery licence, for example. Some of these companies are working on a pro bono basis. We need to have much more interaction and this must be developed.

Deputy McDonald referred to the appointment of Secretaries General. Ideally, one would not enter the public service at Secretary General level. In some cases, it might be appropriate but, by and large, one could enter at assistant secretary or principal officer levels. This would be more impactive because it would be very difficult for an external person to understand the culture of the public service immediately. Perhaps the Deputy has a different view on this. If so, I would welcome hearing it.

I do not know whether the Chairman wants me to touch on the points made by other Deputies.

I am trying to ensure points are dealt with when they arise. It is a bit difficult because many of the points Deputies will raise will be general rather than specific. We are trying to do the best we can.

Deputy McDonald referred to pensions and added years.

I referred to TLAC.

We will go against our own strictures and allow the Minister to conclude his responses.

Deputy McDonald had a few points I did not deal with. We reconstructed TLAC when we came into government because we wanted a majority of external people making the top-level appointments. I invited Ms Maureen Lynott, a consultant, to chair TLAC. She is the first external chairman. We also invited a number of people to be members of the top level appointments committee, TLAC, including Dr. Dorothy Scally, a human resources consultant, Mr. Martin Murphy, managing director, Hewlett-Packard Ireland, Mr. Clive Brownlee, Praesta Ireland and Mr. Kevin Empey, head of human resources in Towers Watson, all of whom accepted. They now are the majority and there is a majority of external members on all interview panels, which are chaired by external members. The ex officio internal people are the Secretary General of my Department, Mr. Robert Watt, the Secretary General to the Government, Mr. Martin Fraser, as well as two other secretaries general. At present, they are the Secretary General of the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine, Mr. Tom Moran, and Ms Josephine Feehilly, chairman of the Revenue Commissioners. The annual fee paid to the chair is €11,970 and the annual fee paid to the four external members is €7,695. Obviously, no additional payments accrue to the civil servants involved.

As for the pensions and added years, I am engaged in discussions with the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government in respect of the county managers. It is not a State secret that I believe the same changes the Government applied to the secretaries general in terms of abolishing TLAC terms should be applied to all new officeholders of county and city manager positions. However, reforms also are coming generally in that area.

If I may deal with the two points raised by Deputy Donnelly, he makes a general point that oversight is a joke. I think this point is overstated and while I acknowledge the Deputy made it for effect, it actually damages-----

I certainly did not say it for effect.

I know the reason I said it.

Bluntly, I consider to be damaging. One can say that oversight is not effective or that other matters must be improved but with all due respect, some of that is down to the Deputy himself. Deputies must carve out an effective role, some succeed in so doing very well, in holding to account Ministers and in making things accountable. The Deputy instances the lack of accountability in the number of guillotines. Sometimes, guillotines are required although my own judgment is they should be avoided, if possible. Traditionally, the Government does not get a social welfare Bill through the Oireachtas without guillotines because one can talk forever on each section and it suits some Members to so do. It often is the same in respect of finance Bills. In addition, there are issues that are a matter of urgency for which one includes a guillotine, even when one is aware that adequate time has been provided - generally it has been - because one needs a timeframe to achieve a purpose that absolutely is required in the national interest. It certainly is an issue that must be addressed. The Government has addressed it by sitting one third more in this Dáil than was the case in the previous Dáil. If more sittings are needed, the Government will be amenable to listening to arguments for them. However, if anyone has suggestions on making things better I note there is a confusion - it is a point Deputy McDonald makes repeatedly - whereby one states the Government governs. There is a responsibility on the majority to actually carry the day because it has an agreed platform. While the Government hears the argument, debate and scrutiny does not mean one has the right to overrule the majority but sometimes, one gets the impression that is the intention of some.

As for the final two points made by Deputy Donnelly, he referred to the capital programme and the absence of cost-benefit analyses. I repeat that if there is any particular project in which he is interested and on which he seeks to have a proper evaluation of the costing, he should have the committee bring in the line Department and the proposals and then scrutinise until the cows come home. However, just because someone does not have the information to hand in the Dáil Chamber when the Deputy throws in the question at any given moment, that does not mean it does not work. The Deputy should find a way to make it work, as that is the way in which parliaments operate. The Deputy asks a further question on whether there is a crudeness associated with simply reducing numbers, as opposed to examining pay rates. For any business that seeks to reduce payroll costs, all the recommendations I have received from business are to reduce numbers. While one can squeeze pay costs, that normally yields a temporary reduction whereas taking out numbers is how any significant business downsizes. The Government has in fact done both and on average, a reduction in pay of approximately 14% has been achieved in the public service. I can provide members with very interesting specific figures going to the very top and they also might be of interest to Deputy McDonald.

People always talk in gross terms about top-level pay and I note that were one to cut the Taoiseach's pay by 100%, it would not be enough for some. However, extraordinarily extensive reductions have been made in top people's pay. I will provide some figures in this regard. In 2008, the Taoiseach's gross salary was €285,582 and it now stands at €200,000. Moreover, if one compares the net salary of 2008 with the present salary, it has been reduced by 44%, which is quite extensive. Briefly, I will provide further figures. In net terms, the salary of a Minister now is 40% less than the position in 2008, that of a Secretary General at level one is 42% less, that of a deputy secretary is 30% less, that of an assistant secretary is 28% less and that of the principal officer on the standard scale is 22% less. These constitute extremely significant-----

What about the net salary of a clerical officer?

In the case of a clerical officer, the reduction would be a lot less.

I am not being moved by this ode to the highly-paid ranks. Does the Minister want members to shed a tear for Ireland?

I am not asking the Deputy to shed any tears, as I know that would be a difficult task for her to accomplish. Tears or no tears, one cannot dismiss a significant reduction of 44% as irrelevant or state that one is pampering the rich and has done nothing at the top. That simply is not right and it undermines the case for doing more if one fails to acknowledge what has been done. The Government has put in place a ceiling because it believes in fairness in respect of all these matters.

We will proceed. While we have just about got off the ground, we may have dealt with many of the issues that are preoccupying members and perhaps we now will go through more of the detail.

Are there any questions on subhead ii in respect of travel and subsistence? What of subhead iii on incidental expenses?

I apologise but where does this appear in the briefing document?

I am referring to the administrative subheads.

For completeness, the reduction in respect of clerical officers is 11%.

The senior officials earn much more money.

We cannot have an argument in this way. Remarks must go through the Chair.

The issue of high variance in pay is precisely what members should be debating.

To be clear, I have no difficulty in having a debate on any issue any member wishes to raise. However, the purpose of this meeting is to deal with the Revised Estimates. If members wish to have a debate on public service salaries under the remit of this committee, I am quite happy to facilitate that. I have not been asked to so do but were I to be, it certainly would be considered favourably and would be facilitated.

At present, however, we are dealing with the Revised Estimates. Deputy Donnelly asked where to look in the briefing documents and unless I am mistaken, this information is to be found on page 7. We are dealing with administration, for which there is information on the bottom half of page 7. Subhead ii pertains to travel and subsistence. I note the break-out appears on page 10 and members can follow it there. Are there any comments or questions on subhead iii, incidental expenses? Are there any comments or questions on subhead iv, postal and telecommunications services? Are there any comments or questions on subhead v, office equipment and external information technology services? Are there any comments or questions on subhead vi, office premises expenses? Are there any comments or questions on subhead vii, consultancy services? Are there any comments or questions on subhead viii, EU Presidency?

I will now turn to the two main programmes. Programme A concerns public expenditure and sectoral policy. Subhead A3 pertains to the Economic and Social Research Institute, administration and general grant-in-aid. Are there any comments or questions? No. Subhead A4 concerns structural funds, technical assistance and other costs. Are there any comments or questions? Subhead A5 pertains to technical assistance costs of regional assemblies, grant-in-aid. Are there any comments or questions?

Are there any comments or questions with regard to subhead A6, PEACE INTERREG programmes; subhead A7, special EU programmes bod; and subhead A8, Ireland-Wales and transnational INTERREG?

I wish to comment on Subhead A6, if I may.

The PEACE INTERREG programmes.

Yes. I understand from the briefing that this is a cyclical issue. If we see this smoothed over a few years, will it essentially be the same rate year on year?

The same costing?

No. I understand that it is cyclical, but is the average moving up, down or staying the same?

This body is overseen by a special implementation body, which is one of the seven North-South implementation bodies under the Good Friday Agreement. It is funded jointly by my Department and the Department of Finance and Personnel in Northern Ireland. I am due to have a meeting in Armagh on these matters with my ministerial counterpart, Mr. Sammy Wilson. There are very significant funds involved - many hundreds of millions of euro - in the peace component of it as regards North-South bodies.

The Deputy asked if it will be exactly even. There are different requirements at different parts of the cycle in terms of reporting to Brussels that might be more onerous or more demanding, so it would not be exactly smooth. Overall, however, the percentage involved in administration is of the order of 2.4% or 2.5%.

Is all of the €2.3 million increase accounted for due to cyclical factors or are we seeing a cyclically adjusted increase year on year?

What one has is the actual cost per annum. I can give the Deputy the total cost over the five years. Under the INTERREG 4 programme it is projected to cost about €12.1 million. Under the PEACE 3 five-year programme it is €20.9 million. As I said, the costs are shared between my Department and Northern Ireland.

Very good. We have dealt with Subheads A7 and A8. Subhead A9, procurement management reform. Any comments or questions?

Subhead A10, consultancy and other costs. Any comments or questions?

Are the 2011 outputs agreed to? Agreed. Are the 2012 output targets agreed to? Agreed. Are the 2011 context and impact indicators agreed to? Agreed.

Turning to programme B: public service management and reform, are there any comments or questions with regard to subhead B3: Institute of Public Administration grant-in-aid; subhead B4: Gaelagras na Seirbhishí Poiblí; subhead B5: Civil Service arbitration and appeals procedures; subhead B6: review body of higher remuneration in the public service; subhead B7: public service benchmarking body; and subhead B8: committee for performance awards?

They are all tokens, as you can see.

Are there any comments or questions with regard to subhead B9: Civil Service child care initiative; subhead B10: consultancy and other costs; subhead B11: centre for management and organisation development, including CSTDC and SMD; subhead B12: reform agenda; subhead B13: HR shared service centre; subhead B14: employee assistance services; and subhead B15: Referendum Commission?

Are there any comments or questions with regard to appropriations-in-aid? With regard to key outputs, are the 2011 outputs agreed to? Agreed. Are the 2012 output targets agreed to? Agreed.

Can we go back to B13?

Subhead B13, HR shared service centre.

This issue arose last year. The shared service centre is a great idea. As regards the sum of €4.6 million, does the Minister know what savings he is getting from other Departments through the creation of this centre?

There are savings across all Departments once it is up and running. There is an advance payment on the pay to save principle, but the indicative savings - when we have it running - will be about €12.5 million per annum.

Some €12.5 million per year.

Is €4.6 million the run rate, or is that still a ramp-up cost?

Does the Minister know what it will go up to, what the year on year spend on it will be?

The idea is that we are going to set this up as a Civil Service single unit. We are taking the human resource management function from across a range of Departments. We will centralise them in one location. There will be a downsizing in the total numbers involved and there will be a rationalising in the way we do the work. The total cost of setting it up is about €5.7 million. We estimate that the annual savings, which will be reflected across Departments, will be approximately €12.5 million per annum.

Has there been, or is there any plan to have, any tendering process for parts of that, for any of the services that are offered from this specific centre?

It was looked at. The money we spent with Accenture was to look at the best model. The model we have arrived at after scrutiny is to have a Civil Service model. We looked at the possibility of having a totally external model and different types of structure for it. The Civil Service model, co-ordinated in a single location in Dublin was what was preferred. It will not therefore be tendered, as such; it is an internal model. Accenture was selected following a procurement for a preferred bidder to give us those advices.

Vote 12 covers superannuation and retired allowances - pages 37 to 41 in the Department's briefing. Are there any comments or questions with regard to subhead A1: superannuation allowances, compensation allowances, pensions and certain children's allowances; subhead A2: payments under the contributory scheme for spouses and children of civil servants, members of the Judiciary and court officers; subhead A3: ex-gratia pensions for widows and children of civil servants, members of the Judiciary and court officers; subhead A4: additional allowances and gratuities in respect of established officers, and payments in respect of transferred service; subhead A5: pensions, allowances and gratuities in respect of unestablished officers, their spouses and children, and other pensions and payments in respect of transferred service; and subhead A6: injury grants and medical fees?

Is this being driven by an increase in injuries and ill health? If not, what is driving this increase?

I presume it is an estimate of what will arise during the course of 2012. It provides for payments for medical examinations in cases of ill health retirement where necessary and, more rarely, for special payments for deaths and injuries in service, which can happen. The outturn figure for last year is €349,000. The provision this year is €550,000. It is a relatively small amount. It is difficult to have an accurate estimate and this is basically the best shot. It is an order of €550,000 which in the overall context is not all that much.

What is driving the 60% increase? Is it expected that the cost per person will go up or that there will be more incidents that will require payment?

I am advised that last year's outturn was unusually low. The previous year, for example, it was €419,000. Last year was the exception. We are making the normal provision for 2012 and if it is not fully expended then those savings will accrue.

This is a very small item but it demonstrates something I have noticed in all of the Votes. Unlike Deputy Donnelly, I brought last year's figures with me. It happens every year that the outturn is less than the Estimate. Nevertheless, the Estimate for the following year is more. It seems that now we are in the mode of trying to make savings one should institutionalise the saving and assume it is the figure. One cannot always estimate what costs will be. We are all amused by the Secret Service figure.

We have hidden that.

If I was given a budget I would spend up to the limit. If section heads see they have a bigger budget than they actually need they will spend it. The temptation is always there.

This is a small amount.

I am using it as an example of what seems to happen again and again.

The chief medical officer of the Civil Service is in my Department. Where there are ill-health retirements, there is a requirement to have examinations. In essence, on subheads like this the prudent thing to do is to provide an estimate of what it actually cost and what it is likely to cost over an average of years. That is the take that is done. I take the Deputy's point. It is better to have a robust and accurate quantum of money rather than seek an adjustment of the subhead for such a small amount later in the year.

I appreciate this is a small comment but it happens in every Vote in every Department. Now that we are in saving mode it seems to me that we should tighten budgets rather than allowing contingencies which may be over generous.

The tendency in the past was to have an indicative budget for the year. If the money was not spent by the end of the year, it was spent. That is why we are now moving to multi-annual budgets. What is not spent is rolled over and people have a three-year budget horizon. Real costs are met in real time and people are not looking for things to spend money on at the end of the year.

Are there any comments or questions on subhead A7, fees to the pensions board, subhead A8, payments in respect of liabilities under Chapter 2 of the Taxes Consolidation Act 1997, subhead A9, pension liabilities of former public service bodies payable under statute or appropriations-in-aid? No. Are the 2011 outputs agreed?

The Minister is looking for feedback on the data. This section comprises 85% of the entire budget. I refer in particular to subheads A1, which is €350 million, A4 and A2. It would be great to get a further breakdown on those sections which comprise the vast majority of the spend. There is no information. The payment is described but very little additional information is given.

I can give some now if it is helpful. The superannuation retired allowance Vote for this year amounts to a net provision of €418.275 million. At the end of March last year gross payments of €112 million had been made from Vote 12. At the end of March this year gross payments were €129 million from Vote 12. There were 18,636 pensioners in receipt of payments at the end of December 2011. At the end of March this year the figure rose to 19,945.

The increase in the first quarter is made up of 1,597 new cases, less 288 who left the scheme. Unfortunately, that is a euphemism for people who died. Of the 1,597 who retired this year, all except 36 retired during the grace period. It is interesting that a number of people retired immediately after the grace period, one of whom was a Secretary General who, for operational reasons, took the heat to ensure there was a smooth transition, something which should be acknowledged.

Very good. Are the 2012 output targets agreed? Agreed. Are the 2011 context and impact indicators agreed? Agreed.

We move to Vote 14 - State Laboratory. Members will find the information in the briefing document between pages 43 and 51. Are there any comments or questions on subhead A1, salaries, wages and allowances, or subhead A2, travel and subsistence?

I have a general point on travel and subsistence. The matter was raised in a committee last year. Travel and subsistence across a number of organisations increased and I note it is increasing again this year. That may be perfectly fine. Can the Minister explain why the figure is increasing year-on-year? I am not picking on the State Laboratory, rather my question is more general.

The Deputy will probably find travel will increase this year and next year for a number of key agencies who will be involved in the EU Presidency. The State Laboratory is involved in a number of EU committees regarding work being carried out at EU level. Its support role will migrate to a leadership role next year. There will be a lot more European bound travel by key people which is why the travel element has increased from the estimate provided of €59,000. The actual outturn increased from €27,000 to €35,000.

Are there any comments or questions on subhead A3, training and development and incidental expenses, subhead A4, postal and telecommunications services, subhead A5, office equipment and external IT services, subhead A6, office premises expenses, subhead A7, consultancy services or appropriations-in-aid in respect of the State Laboratory? No.

Are the 2011 key outputs agreed? Agreed. Are the 2012 output targets agreed? Agreed. Are the 2011 context and impact indicators agreed? Agreed.

Vote 15 refers to the Secret Service, which appears in the book.

It is secret, I presume.

The pages are not blank but are quite sparse. Are there any comments or questions?

The figure is about €1 million.

I remember this being intriguing during my time in opposition. We do not have an upfront Secret Service. This is probably the only Vote where I do not know what the money is spent on. I get a warrant from the Minister for Defence or Minister for Justice and Equality to call the money down and I sanction the warrant. In this instance the Minister for Defence is also the Minister for Justice and Equality and is familiar with the detail.

It is on the mysteries shelf.

Deputy Mathews mentioned the mysteries shelf. We know where the Secret Service in America is located and who is in charge of it. As an Irish citizen I can find out who is in charge of MI5 and MI6 and where they are located. On the one hand I am mindful of the statement made by a Deputy who said, "They haven't gone away you know", while on the other I am mindful of the excellent character portrayed by Brendan Gleeson in "The Guard". Can we at least know that the people involved are not a bunch of retired officials from the Department of Justice and Equality who watch James Bond movies in the attic? What is the purpose of parliamentary oversight if we cannot establish that much?

I will not disabuse the Deputy. This is not to fund the Secret Service. It is a misnomer of the Vote as such. The Secret Service, such as it is, is military intelligence which is a part of the justice Vote and there is obviously a surveillance capacity within the Garda Síochána which is part of the justice Vote. This is something entirely different. It is a fund used for their own purposes by the Department of Justice and Equality, in essence the Garda Síochána, and the Department of Defence, the Army, in particular, as I understand it. It is traditionally a matter for the line Minister to know the specifics on which the money is spent.

We are advised that the Estimate is kept high to allow for contingencies.

It is €1 million. I can give the breakdown of the expenditure. Since 2010 the provision has been €1 million. In 2010, the actual drawdown was €600,000; in 2011 the drawdown was €581,000.

Some €568,000.

I beg your pardon, the drawdown was €568,000 in 2011. It is better to have sufficient funds in the Vote, particularly if money is required in the roll-over of the year where Estimates have not yet been framed.

We move on to Vote 16.

Has the Vote anything to do with correspondence and working with the Secret Service that might come with American visitors?

That is the American Secret Service, it has nothing to do with us.

Our Secret Service liaises with them.

No, that is the Garda Síochána end.

Programme A - provision of a State Valuation Service. Administrative subheads A1 to A4. Subhead A1 - salaries, wages and allowances. Are there any comments or questions? Subhead A2 - administration, non-pay. Are there any comments or questions?

To what is the extra €800,000, shown on page 57, under subhead A2 referring?

I am on a different page.

I beg your pardon, ignore that question, please?

Subhead A2.2 - travel and subsistence. Are there any comments or questions? Subhead A2.3 - training and development and incidental expenses. Any there any comments or questions? Subhead A2.4 - postal and telecommunications services. Are there any comments or questions? Subhead A2.5 - office equipment and external IT services. Are there any comments or questions? Subhead A2.6 - office premises expenses. Are there any comments or questions? Subhead A2.7 - consultancy and value for money and policy reviews. Are there comments or questions? Subhead A3 - fees to counsel and other legal expenses. Are there any comments or questions? Subhead A4 - national revaluation projects. Are there any comments or questions?

I have a general question.

We will finish with the programme first. Programme A - are the 2011 outputs agreed? Agreed. Are the 2012 output targets agreed? Agreed. Are the 2011 context and impact indicators agreed? Agreed.

May I ask questions before we agree?

Go ahead and we will see.

In terms of the outputs and the context and impact indicators, as customer satisfaction rating has dropped year on year for 2009, 2010 and 2011, is there a target for the satisfaction rating? The rating has gone from 79% to 76% to 70%. Is that good or bad? What is the office's target? Are there consequences, good or bad? What consequences occur when the office, or any of the offices within the Minister's remit, hits or misses its targets?

The Valuation Office has undergone some change in the past 12 months. To answer the Deputy's general question, the satisfaction rating should be at least maintained, if not increased, and it is not satisfactory. We brought in a new valuation commissioner temporarily last year who has been working pro bono for the past year. He is a retired senior civil servant who has brought about some changes to the office. I am introducing specific legislation to bring about changes to the Valuation Office. That legislation is in train. He has piloted some ideas in respect of changing the way valuations are done. As one can imagine, in the past few years there has been a dramatic change in the value of property and many people are pushing for revaluation. We are seeking different options, including piloting self-evaluation for the first time anywhere in the world, to see how that can be done in a robust way. Significant change is coming and we will have an opportunity to debate that issue when the legislation comes before the House. In the meantime a new head of the Valuation Office, a new valuation commissioner, has been appointed. I had a meeting with him yesterday and expect the significant reforms already in train to impact on customer satisfaction and on efficiency in respect of the Valuation Office.

With regard to customer satisfaction rating, is there a target? For example, is 70% good or bad?

If political parties had a 70% satisfaction rating they would be very happy. That is a question the Deputy may wish to put to the Valuation Office as it is an internal process. From my perspective, I would expect the current level to be at least maintained and to be improved. That would be a rule of thumb.

The Deputy can offer his own valuation on that.

Programme B - administration services for the valuation tribunal. Administrative subheads B1 to B3. Subhead B1 - administration pay. Are there any comments or questions? Subhead B3 - valuation tribunal programme. Are there any comments or questions? Programme B - key outputs. Are the 2011 outputs agreed? Agreed. Are the 2012 targets agreed? Agreed. Programme B - context and impact indicators. Are the 2011 context and impact indicators agreed? Agreed. Appropriations-in-aid - are there any comments or questions? Revised public service numbers policy - are there any comments or questions?

I was hoping to make a comment on the overall numbers. The Chairman asked me to wait until he had gone through-----

Is it the overall numbers in the Valuation Office?

Go ahead.

Most of the numbers are going up - administrative non-pay, travel and subsistence, office premises, consultancy, postal and telecommunications, training and development, office equipment and external IT. The number for legal fees and expenses has dropped. What activity is driving all of these things? Is there significantly more output coming from the office that is driving all of these things?

A huge volume of work was done last year in completing valuations in Waterford, Dublin and Dublin city. Limerick is in train. Much productivity was required and driven last year. We are considering new mechanisms including either some external outsourcing of valuation or self-evaluation - both of which are being tested robustly and piloted to see how they will work. To answer the Deputy's question directly, there are more outputs and more demands and more demands will be made on them this year and into next year.

May I resubmit a proposal? I suggested it last year. It is very difficult for us when we speak about oversight to understand whether the costs are warranted.

Write to the Valuation Office.

What would be very useful is a productivity measure. If unit work is going up, it would be useful to know if the cost of unit work is going down.

We are changing the modality of doing it as well and we are piloting new ways of doing it. It would be useful to ask those questions directly of the new valuation commissioner.

We will now discuss Vote 17, Public Appointments Service. Are there any comments or questions on subhead A1, administration - pay? No. Are there any comments or questions on subhead A2, administration - non-pay in the Public Appointments Service? No. Are there any comments or questions on subhead A2.2, travel and subsistence in the Public Appointments Service? No. Are there any comments or questions on subhead A2.3, training and development and incidental expenses in the Public Appointments Service? No.

I am a bit sleepy at this hour of night. What does the Public Appointments Service do?

I could venture a response but as it is not my place to do so I will let the Minister respond.

The Public Appointments Service is the primary provider of shared services to the Civil Service and public service in the area of recruitment, assessment and related services. I can give the Deputy-----

Is it like a human resources division, in ordinary speak?

No. It actually provides support to Departments, but it is a general portal by which public service vacancies are advertised, including vacancies for appointments to State boards and so on.

Does it carry out evaluation or appraisal of candidates for jobs?

The Deputy might have known it by its former name, the Office of the Civil Service and Local Appointments Commissioners.

It was the Office of the Civil Service and Local Appointments Commissioners.

I am afraid I am not very good at understanding these things.

I have a very long briefing note on not only the current functioning, but also the history of it. I will pass it to the Deputy rather than read it out.

Perhaps the matter can be dealt with offline.

I think I am beginning to understand vaguely what it does.

It assists with the recruitment and selection of persons to the Civil Service, local authority sector, health sector, Garda Síochána, and the Prison Service. It also provides recruitment and related services to a wide range of public service organisations not encompassed by the Public Service Management Act, including a testing service for the Nursing Careers Centre, the Defence Forces and other agencies. I can give the Deputy the full breakdown.

Are there any comments or questions on subhead A2.5, office equipment and external IT services in the Public Appointments Service? No. Are there any comments or questions on subhead A2.6, office premises expenses? No. Are there any comments or questions on subhead A2.7, consultancy and value for money and policy reviews? No. Are there any comments or questions on subhead A2.8, accommodation, advertising, and purchasing and printing of test papers? No. Are there any comments or questions on subhead A2.9, interview and other competition costs in the Public Appointments Service? No. Are there any comments or questions on appropriations-in-aid? No. Are there any comments or questions on the pensions levy? No.

Are the 2011 outputs agreed?

I have a general question on the section relating to the Public Appointments Service. There is a reduction of five people and the staff complement is 86 people. Given that we have recruitment ban, what are they doing?

There is a moratorium and this has resulted in a significant reduction in the recruitment activities of the past. However, over the past year, the Public Appointments Service has played an increasing role in supporting the TLAC in carrying out its function in open recruitment of senior public servants. It is also continuing to support the HSE in the recruitment of medical consultants and other essential front-line posts in the health sector. Other interventions have related to the centralisation of the recruitment of non-consultant hospital doctors and staff nurses in the health service. It has also been involved in helping with the demand for recruitment for essential senior positions in a number of Departments, Government offices, local authorities and others. It has been broadening the range of supports it has been providing. It was one of the questions I asked to ensure we are getting value for money. There is no scope for reduction in numbers there, but it is something we will keep under review.

It seems a very small reduction given that it was always doing that kind of work and was also recruiting for the public service generally.

There have been a range of things, not only in the HSE which represents the biggest increase, but also in the third level education sector. More public service bodies or analogous public service bodies are using the professional competence of the PAS over time. It has also significantly reduced its own numbers.

It is providing services to agencies that did not use them in the past.

Are the 2011 outputs agreed? Agreed. Are the 2012 output targets agreed? Agreed. Are the 2012 context and impact indicators agreed? Agreed.

Vote 18 is for the Office of the Commission for Public Service Appointments. Are there any comments or questions on subhead A1, administration - pay? No. Are there any comments or questions on subhead A2, administration - non-pay? No. Are there any comments or questions on subhead A2.2, travel and subsistence - pay? No. Are there any comments or questions on subhead A2.3, training and development and incidental expenses? No. Are there any comments or questions on subhead A2.4, postal and telecommunications services? No. Are there any comments or questions on subhead A2.5, office equipment and external IT services? No. Are there any comments or questions on subhead A2.6, office premises expenses? No. Are there any comments or questions on subhead A2.7, consultancy-----

(Interruptions).

I am sorry about that. I was sure I had my phone switched off.

Are there any comments or questions on subhead A2.7, consultancy, and value for money and policy reviews? No. Are there any comments or questions on subhead A2.8, legal expenses? No. Are there any comments or questions on subhead A2.9, appropriations-in-aid? No.

I have a question on all of them. I understand the pay subhead. However, why are the areas of non-pay, travel and subsistence, training, post, office equipment, IT, office premises, consultancy and legal expenses all increasing? What is driving an increase in all these subheads? I do not mean this to sound glib. Why are all these areas increasing again this year?

They are all relatively small amounts, but the Deputy makes a valid point. The Commission for Public Service Appointments was established in 2004. We are in a process of amalgamation. The office has moved to the same premises as the Office of the Ombudsman. It is benefiting from shared services pending the passing of legislation to facilitate its formal merger with the Office of the Ombudsman, which will happen shortly. Discussions are under way as to how that can be done. Some of those sums are contingency funds which hopefully will not be utilised. They are relatively small but the Deputy makes a fair point over why we are making any provision at all for an increase. We will look carefully at how they are expended.

If the Minister were the chief executive of a company in receivership and if his management team came to him for the second year in a row and said: "Even though we are in receivership, we are going to shared services and we have all these great ideas for cost savings but yet again pretty much every single line item will increase", how would he feel? We have this in the Commission for Public Service Appointments and we have had it in a bunch of these. It does not seem acceptable. It comes back to the point I was trying to make earlier about culture. While I support many of the mechanical changes in the Minister's plan, which I have read in detail, nothing will change without a cultural change. By coming to this committee and saying he is increasing everything - travel, post-----

That is for this office.

I am talking about this one. The Minister is increasing the allocation for office premises which indicates that even though the Commission for Public Service Appointments is moving to a shared office to reduce costs, it will actually cost more. It is just not good enough. It is not acceptable when the country is in receivership to allow a culture that suggests that even though we may not spend it all, we will give ourselves pretty generous margins of error. As we all know, in most countries the mindset in the public sector is that at the end of the year one tries to spend one's budget. In countries with this system one sees roadworks being done as councils dig up roads as the end of their budgetary year approaches. I used to work in a very large travel agency and I saw it happen. Given the country's situation it is not acceptable to appear to be padding budgets.

It is like soft provisions in banking.

I do not disagree with what the Deputy has said. We are in the process of merging the two offices. This is a much lower budget than heretofore and to give encouragement to get on with the merger we have given comfort in the budget line for this year.

To answer the other question, the idea of moving to multi-annual budgets is to ensure we do not have a culture of money being spent because it is in the budget line. This will not happen. Deputy Donnelly has made very fair points and I will undertake specifically to examine the expenditure. Granted it involves a small amount of money but Deputy Donnelly's principle is correct.

If there is an element of performance related pay, soft targets are easy jumps when it comes to the outcome at the end of 2012. One can say one did very well hence one should get one's bonus.

The jump I am expecting is a jump into a merger and not to exist in and of itself.

Are the 2011 outputs agreed? Agreed. Are the 2012 output targets agreed? Agreed. Are the 2011 context and impact indicators agreed? Agreed.

Where are they? Am I missing them? Are they on the same page?

They are found in the Revised Estimates. As I explained earlier, the secretariat did some extraction work for the benefit of members of the committee but only on the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform and the OPW. The figures the Deputy is looking for are not found in the statistics we compiled because we managed to do them only for the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform and the OPW. We did not have the resources to do the breakdown for the other Votes. It is possible to identify the information in the Revised Estimates which were published some time ago.

They are on page 80 of the booklet members have been given.

They were published in February.

I thank the Chairman.

The booklet members have was prepared by the Department for our assistance today. While we are very grateful for the booklet which contains the main information, earlier we discussed the possibility that we may need more information. Perhaps we will want to revisit this.

We can provide information in any format the committee wants and which it finds helpful.

The raw facts are in the Revised Estimates published in February.

What members have been given is the working document we published in February.

It was circulated to every member.

Every member will have received it.

Subhead 9 is appropriations-in-aid. Are these transfers to other Departments?

It transfers in through this Vote. It is non-Voted money received.

It is a credit or an offset. Could a title other than appropriations-in-aid be used?

It has been used since Adam was a boy. Perhaps another name would be better.

Changing the name would require an Act of Parliament.

Are the 2011 outputs agreed? Agreed. Are the 2012 output targets agreed? Agreed. Are the 2011 context and impact indicators agreed? Agreed. We will now deal with Vote 19, the Office of the Ombudsman, administrative subheads A1 to A8. Are there any comments or questions on subhead A1 which is salaries, wages and allowances?

I have a short question. Full credit is due to the Ombudsman, who reduced her numbers considerably from 102 to 85, and at the same time increased output by 30%. The Office of the Ombudsman has responsibility for support administration for referendums. The referendum we are about to hold is not included in the Estimates as I presume we did not anticipate holding one. Is there likely to be an overrun or is there sufficient contingency?

There will be a particular Vote on the referendum. The way it works is that the line Department sponsoring the referendum carries-----

Yes. For example, the referendum we had on inquiries was carried by the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform and that on judges pay was carried by the Department of Justice and Equality. The upcoming referendum will be carried by the Department of the Taoiseach.

We dealt with that Vote several weeks ago.

In other words it does not need to be included in this one.

I thank the Minister.

Any further comments or questions? Are there any comments or questions on travel and subsistence? Are there any comments or questions on subhead A3, which is training and development and incidental expenditure?

I will make a similar point here. I congratulate the office on gaining substantial savings in 2011 but expenditure has increased again. Is there a reason for this? Great work was done in 2011 but ideally we would like savings to be found and then locked in where possible. Is there a reason expenditure has increased?

The Department listens to the arguments made by the line office, in this case the Ombudsman herself, on realistic costs. As one can see, significant savings were made last year because training was postponed. This training is expected to be undertaken this year and what is shown is the requested sum of money to which I acceded for what is otherwise a very efficient office.

Are there any comments or questions on subhead A4: postal and telecommunications services; subhead A5: office equipment and external IT services; subhead A6: office premises expenses; subhead A7: consultancy services and value for money and policy reviews; and subhead A8: legal fees?

I am not picking on the Ombudsman, but I will use this to make a broader point which does not relate to this figure and I beg the Chairman's indulgence to use it as an example. During the equivalent meeting last year we saw projected legal fees for a number of offices jump and they are jumping again. The figure for the Ombudsman is reducing significantly, which is excellent. I am sure the Minister is aware - I have certainly been made aware over the past year or so - of incidents of extraordinarily cavalier use of very expensive lawyers for issues for which they should never have been used. This has nothing to do with the Ombudsman but several High Court cases which should never have been taken were taken and cost hundreds and thousands of euro. Is the Department reviewing the use of lawyers by Departments?

The Office of the Ombudsman must have access to legal advices. The sum of €50,000 involved is small.

I do not think the Minister heard me. I am not asking about the figure before us, which has reduced and which is very welcome. I am not picking on the Ombudsman.

I am using it to ask a question on whether anyone is examining the use of very expensive lawyers by the Civil Service?

I looked at how other very efficient companies obtain legal services. One significant company accesses legal services for all of Europe from Ireland. It puts legal tendering online with an estimated cost and a timeline for the lowest bidder to become involved. This seems to be a useful approach for that company. We are trying to think outside the box and to get robust legal advices for the State generally, which has not received value for money in terms of its legal costs. God knows, there are significant questions about the tribunals in this regard. I have asked my officials to examine how agencies and line Departments determine who should act for them. This is one of the procurement issues that the Minister of State, Deputy Brian Hayes, is considering. I do not know whether the committee travelled this ground with him when he attended. If Deputy Donnelly is interested, I will provide him with a note on the procurement of legal services.

I thank the Minister.

Are the 2011 outputs agreed? Agreed. Are the 2012 output targets agreed? Agreed. Are the 2011 context and impact indicators agreed? Agreed.

Programme B in the Office of the Ombudsman's Vote 19 covers the Standards in Public Office Commission. Subhead B1 is on salaries, wages and allowances, subhead B2 is on travel and subsistence, subhead B3 is on training, development and incidental expenses, subhead B4 is on postal and telecommunications services, subhead B5 is on office equipment and external IT services, subhead B6 is on office premises expenses, subhead B7 is on consultancy services and value for money and policy reviews and subhead B8 is on legal fees. Are there comments or questions on these subheads? No. Are the 2011 outputs agreed? Agreed. Are the 2012 output targets agreed? Agreed. Are the 2011 context and impact indicators agreed? Agreed.

Programme C in the same Vote is on the Office of the Information Commissioner - Office of the Commissioner for Environmental Information. Subhead C1 is on salaries, wages and allowances, subhead C2 is on travel and subsistence, subhead C3 is on training, development and incidental expenses, subhead C4 is on postal and telecommunications services, subhead C5 is on office equipment and external IT services, subhead C6 is on office premises expenses, subhead C7 is on consultancy services and value for money and policy reviews and subhead C8 is on legal fees. Are there comments or questions on these subheads? No. Are there comments or questions on appropriations-in-aid? No. Are the 2011 outputs agreed? Agreed. Are the 2012 output targets agreed? Agreed. Are the 2011 context and impact indicators agreed? Agreed.

That completes our work. I thank the Minister and his officials for assisting the committee with our consideration of the Revised Estimates and programmes. As we have completed our consideration of the Revised Estimates for Votes 11, 12 and 14 to 19, inclusive, the clerk will send a message to that effect to the Clerk of the Dáil in accordance with Standing Order 87. Under Standing Order 86(2), that message is deemed to be the report of the committee. I thank everyone for attending.

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