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Select Committee on Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation díospóireacht -
Tuesday, 11 Jun 2013

SECTION 6

I move amendment No. 12:

In page 6, line 8, after “subsection (1)” to insert the following:

“by inserting, “and debated by either or both Houses of the Oireachtas” after “House of the Oireachtas” and ”.

As has been discussed so far, the Bill provides for significant changes in the role and remit of SFI and includes the creation of the role of a chief scientific adviser. The legislation has elicited significant comment from the scientific community, including the likes of Professor Peter Higgs.

My amendment seeks to provide a review mechanism. I want the Minister to allow for peer review of the legislation, its impact and how it works. We have heard a lot about the Government's objective to strengthen and increase the scrutiny and review roles of the Oireachtas. In 2011 and 2012 the committee deliberated on impending legislation and identified the important issues. They have become more important and have probably led, in some cases, to certain initiatives not being as successful as the Government wanted. My amendment opens the door towards that.

I shall respond in general terms. I have always contended that science research and innovation is an apolitical space.

With regard to the amendment, I ask that we debate the matter on Report Stage. I am openly disposed to accepting it as it would give the Houses of the Oireachtas a better opportunity to interrogate relevant issues, and I do not mean that in a loaded fashion. It would derogate how the role of SFI translates in terms of its operational structures and programmes and its impact from a societal and economic point of view. Even SFI, as an entity, would welcome that opportunity.

Consequently, I am favourably disposed and ask the Deputy to allow me to return to the matter on Report Stage. I will try to deal with it then.

I appreciate that and in a previous discussion, the Minister of State displayed his desire to engage on these issues in a more open way. It would provide a window to the entire process and I will defer it until Report Stage.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Section 6 agreed to.
Sections 7 to 10, inclusive, agreed to.
NEW SECTION

I move amendment No. 13:

In page 7, between lines 17 and 18, to insert the following:

“Cost benefit analysis of changes to Science Foundation Ireland

11. The Minister shall within 12 months from the passing of this Act prepare and lay before Dáil Éireann a report on a cost benefit analysis of the measures provided for by this Act, setting out the costs incurred, and the benefits in terms of job creation or otherwise.”.

Given that there are so many changes to the way SFI is working - this goes back to a point I made at the previous meeting about silos and how there is now a need to see from where jobs are coming in respect of all initiatives - this amendment would require SFI to lay a report before Dáil Éireann on the number of jobs being created. It also would make people more aware of the value of SFI and of research in general. While such research does not result in jobs straight away, perhaps projects that were established many years ago are now creating jobs and SFI should be given the opportunity to show the value of research, that is, that it is providing or securing jobs at present that otherwise would not be there. Were it not for research programmes within those facilities, many foreign direct investment jobs that exist today would not exist. There is a need to have a forum for better public understanding of the value of research and this amendment would allow it.

For the same reasons I outlined in respect of amendments Nos. 10 and 11, there is a danger inherent within the amendment that too short a view might be taken. At the time of SFI's establishment, it was generally recognised that the research it began to fund in 2000 would not generate the desired outcomes or impact for a horizon spanning perhaps ten to 15 years and we have not yet even reached that stage. It is important to have perspective and I acknowledge the Deputy's point regarding the opportunity it presents to highlight the value of research and so on. However, if one is to account for every single cent or euro that is spent and if one seeks to put in place an appraisal mechanism around that, is one then in danger of creating huge bureaucracies or administrative functions that are unserviceable precisely for the reasons I outlined previously? For instance, under the new opportunities that will arise under Horizon 2020, the foreign direct investment landscape mentioned by the Deputy will, while working with the research landscape in Ireland, retain jobs.

However, we can now use the investment made of €300 million as leverage to create further opportunities during the lifetime of the next framework programme, because we believe we can ramp up that activity and surpass the €600 million target under the current framework. If one were obliged to create an administrative function to drill down into that to the last cent, I do not know whether one would be able to achieve that goal. I do not know of any research landscape in the world, even the most highly evolved, that would be able to achieve it. For instance, if one takes the Fraunhofer model, that is, the funding cost model that exists at present under FP7, there is a certain resistance by some larger research institutions against the simplification model the member states are trying to establish. This is because it suits them as they can fund administrative models that allow them to get greater leverage from European Union funding calls. Consequently, while I understand the sentiment behind the amendment, I believe it is far too prescriptive. Its timelines are too short and were members able to develop a mechanism here whereby this matter was being debated by the Houses of the Oireachtas or was at least discussed in a formalised and structured way, they could drill down into such debates and arguments. In that sense, I am not in a position to accept the amendment.

Title agreed to.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Section 11 agreed to.
Bill reported with amendments.

I thank the Minister of State and his officials for their attendance today. I am glad we got through the Bill and appreciate their time and effort over a long afternoon.

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