SELECT COMMITTEE ON JOBS, SOCIAL PROTECTION AND EDUCATION (Select Sub-Committee on Social Protection) díospóireacht -
Tuesday, 22 May 2012

Vote 37 - Social Protection (Revised)

Chairman

I welcome the Minister for Social Protection, Deputy Burton, and her officials. We are meeting this afternoon to consider the further Revised Estimates for public services 2012, Vote 37 - Department of Social Protection. Members will note the new format of the Estimates, which now focuses on outputs as well as inputs. As before, we have no powers to influence or change the Estimates as presented today. However, the new format will allow committees to meet with Ministers mid-year, in July, to discuss the following year's allocations. These are improvements. Today we have an opportunity to air our views on planned spending by the Department in 2013, as well as on this Estimate.

A proposed timetable has been circulated for today's meeting. It will allow for an opening statement by the Minister, followed by a discussion of the 2012 Revised Estimate by way of questions on each individual subhead, of which there are seven in total. Is this timetable agreed? Agreed.

I will now ask the Minister for her opening statement on the overall Estimate.

Minister for Social Protection (Deputy Joan Burton)

I thank the Chairman and members of the committee for the invitation extended to me to appear before the committee to consider the Department's Estimates for 2012.

In 2012, the Department will spend nearly €20.55 billion on a wide range of schemes, services and administration. Its primary goal is to promote the active participation of citizens in Ireland through the provision of employment services and a wide range of income supports. These services and supports have some kind of impact on the life of almost every single person in the State. The scope and scale of this expenditure play a key role in the wider economy and help to partially offset the effect of the downturn. As a result, the role of this committee is very important, and I look forward to constructive engagement with members over the next few hours on the Government's largest area of expenditure. Members will already have received a substantial brief from my Department to assist them in this regard.

Before we get into the fine detail of these expenditure figures, I would like to outline briefly the transformation process that is currently under way in the Department. Since I appeared before the committee last year, the Department of Social Protection has begun a major project which will transform the services of the Department. This involves the development of an enhanced and tailored approach to support those who are unemployed in availing of opportunities and options for returning to work. In the past year, we have completed one of the most significant transfers of functions across the public service in modern times. This has involved the transfer of over 1,700 posts and these transfers have a direct impact on my Department's administrative budget allocation for 2012.

The committee will be aware that on 1 October 2011, community welfare services staff transferred to the Department from the HSE. These staff bring with them a deep understanding of welfare issues in their communities. From 1 January 2012, FÁS community services and employment services also transferred to the Department. Both of these transfers represent a very significant step in the reform of services provided by the Department. They will enable the implementation of the National Employment and Entitlements Service action plan and more recently the Pathways to Work plan which have identified the concept of the one-stop-shop as one of the critical components of the Department's new service approach, the provision of an integrated set of services. These one-stop-shops will mean that people who avail of our services will find them in one location, where feasible. The services will be provided by a mix of staff with a breadth of skills and experience in entitlements, community welfare and employment services.

I fully recognise that these transfers are challenging for both the individuals transferring into the Department as well as the long-standing staff of the Department. Change is always challenging, not only at organisational level but also on a personal level. I wish to thank all concerned for the co-operation and input into the ongoing transformation of the Department to become an organisation with a radically new focus. This will lead to a better and more effective customer experience for the Department's clients. I cannot stress enough that bringing 1,700 new staff into the Department is probably the biggest - or one of the biggest - transfers of staff in the history of Irish public administration.

The planning for the NEES one-stop-shops is in the live trial and development phase. The Department began the first phase of the NEES trial in the office at Kings Inns Street-Parnell Street, Dublin 1, on 1 February 2011. This will be followed by the end of this month by offices in Arklow, Sligo and Tallaght, with a further ten offices coming on stream by the end of the year.

The 2012 Estimates reflect the merger of the Department with the community welfare services in 2011 and the FÁS community employment services in 2012. Whereas in 2010 the Department operated some 50 schemes, there are now 66 schemes administered by the Department. As a consequence, the Estimates show big increases in expenditure as the Department has taken into its charge very large areas of activity.

With regard to the Department's overall expenditure levels, I wish to highlight the following overall expenditure figures.Total spending on social protection is estimated to decrease by €411 million in 2012, bringing overall expenditure to more than €20.547 billion.A total of €8.9 billion, 1 % less than in 2011, will be spent on social insurance schemes and their administration, while close to €11.6 billion, 2.5% less than in 2011, will be spent on social assistance schemes and services.Expenditure on jobseeker's benefit and jobseeker's allowance is estimated at almost €3.6 billion or €344 million less than in 2011. Some statistical information on the live register has been circulated for the information of the members, along with a copy of this statement.

Overall, some 2.9% of all expenditure is accounted for by administration. This level of expenditure reflects the Government's commitment to protect the most vulnerable in our society and recognises the role of welfare expenditure in the wider economy. However, we are in a difficult economic situation reflected by the fact that we are still spending more each year than we take in through revenue. This means that the nation has very challenging targets for deficit reduction.

The programme for Government contains a commitment to open up the budget and Estimates process to wider public and parliamentary scrutiny. A further innovation being introduced into the Estimates process is the concept of performance budgeting where, alongside the usual expenditure information provided by Departments, the Estimates also includes performance information. This will specify the outputs that will be delivered with the funding to be voted under the Estimates, with these outputs linked to the high level goals set out in each Department's strategy statement. The performance budgeting approach will increase the focus on what is being delivered with public funds. The Estimates for my Department are further complicated by the fact that overall expenditure comprises expenditure under both Vote 37 and the Social Insurance Fund.

The 2012 Estimates have been reorganised on a sub-programme basis to enable a more informed examination of expenditure. An unpublished table has also been made available to the committee to enable examination of expenditure by sub-programme across the Vote and the Social Insurance Fund.

The sub-programmes are as follows: 1, administration; 2, pensions; 3, working age income supports; 4, working age employment supports; 5, illness, disability and carers; 6, children; 7, supplementary payments,agencies and miscellaneous services.

I will now provide a brief overview of each of these areas of expenditure. Administration accounts for 2.9% or nearly €600 million of expenditure. The Estimates provide for 6,744 full time-equivalent positions. The data on administration expenditure takes account of the full integration of HSE and FÁS staff into the Department and to which I referred. This is the reason for the big increase in expenditure. Expenditure on pensions will amount to nearly €6.25 billion, an increase of some €140 million on 2011 or just under 30.4% of overall expenditure. This increase reflects the demographic challenges we are already facing and which are likely to accelerate, year on year. The country has more older people coming to pension age and those people are living longer, thankfully. However, the consequence is an additional requirement for spending in this area. Expenditure on working age income supports, including jobseeker's allowance and one parent family payment, accounts for 27.8% of overall expenditure, or €5.7 billion. Expenditure on working age employment supports, including community employment, JobBridge, TÚS and various employment supports, amount to over €983 million or nearly 5% of the Department's expenditure. This represents an increase of €122 million or 14.1% over 2011 and it is a clear indication of my priorities in this area. Expenditure provision for illness, disability and carers will amount to over €3.4 billion or 16.7% of expenditure in 2012. These supports include carer's allowance and benefit, domiciliary care allowance and disability allowance, among others. In total, payments to carers amount to over €780 million. Expenditure on children and families will account for just under 11.7% of expenditure or nearly €2.4 billion, of which €2.078 billion will be expended on child benefit and €199.5 million expended on family income supplement. Expenditure supplementary payments, agencies and miscellaneous services, accounts for €1.16 million or 5.7% of expenditure. This expenditure includes free travel which will cost an estimated €77 million in 2012 and the household benefits package which will account for over €335 million. Those schemes account for great deal of the expenditure in this area.

I will now deal with sources of funding. The Exchequer makes the most significant contribution to social welfare expenditure in terms of resources as it funds all assistance-based schemes and child benefit. However, employees, employers, and the self-employed, also make a significant and valued contribution to the social welfare system through the operation of the Social Insurance Fund. This year, the income of the Social Insurance Fund will be in excess of €7.087 billion but expenditure will be almost €8.9 billion. This deficit of just €1.8 billion will be financed by the Exchequer out of general taxation resources.

An actuarial review of the social insurance fund is currently nearing completion and will be laid before the Houses next month. This will better inform consideration of the expenditure pressure facing the fund in the years ahead and, by definition, the financing implications. It will look at our population statistics, demographics and the extra costs of people living longer, more social welfare claimants and so on.

The performance budgeting section of the Estimates outlines the key outputs achieved in 2011, as well as the output targets for 2012. The context and impact indicators illustrate the scale of our activities.

We operate 66 separate schemes and 12 services and the needs and requirements of individual claimants can vary dramatically, as Deputies from all sides of the House are aware. The following figures give some indication of the scale of business. In 2011, the Department processed more than 1 million weekly paid claims and made over 87.5 million payment transactions. Over 6.8 million telephone calls were received in headquarter sections. Over 982,000 control reviews were conducted by the Department in 2011. In 2012, an average of just over 1.4 million people will receive a social welfare payment each week. When qualified adults and qualified children are included, a total of more than 2 million people will benefit from weekly payments. In addition to this, child benefit payments will reach over 600,000 families, with nearly 1.12 million children, every month.

I hope my opening statement has given Members a good overview of the Department's planned expenditure and activities in 2012. The schemes and services operated by the Department benefit everyone in society, either directly or indirectly, and are the key platform for the delivery of social protection in our country. I look forward to discussing the Estimates with the select sub-committee.

Chairman

We will move on to the question and answer session. We will deal with the seven programmes one by one. We will first deal with administration. The questions on each section will be grouped. Is that agreed? Agreed.

I call Deputy Cowen.

Deputy Barry Cowen

I have just one brief question on the administration figure before us. Over the last year or two, we saw the amalgamation of offices with the Minister's Department. Will we see a vast reduction in the administration costs of the Department in the coming year, now that this process has been bedded down? The Minister said 2.7% of the Department's expenditure goes on administration. That was beefed up substantially this year by the cost of merging and the transfer of staff. Now that the amalgamation is nearing completion, can we expect funding to become available next year that is not available now because of those costs?

Deputy Jonathan O’Brien

The contingency fund for training, development and incidental expenses is increasing by 640%. Could the Minister give us an idea what this is spent on?

Deputy Joan Burton

Deputy Cowen asked about amalgamation costs. In 2011, the Department paid 80% of the salary costs of the community welfare service from the supplementary welfare allowance, and of the FÁS employment and community programmes. In 2012, the Department is now paying for 100% of all salaries and administration costs associated with the staff who transferred from the community welfare service and the FÁS employment and community services. This accounts for the increase in the total administration cost.

There is also a constantly increasing demand overall for the Department's services by numbers of people. That is particularly reflected in the unemployment figures. Therefore, the Department has much more onerous demands on its administration than previously. Obviously, we inherited, as it were, the proposals for the transfer of the FÁS staff and the community welfare staff into the Department from the previous Administration.

We are working towards a more streamlined and integrated service that will be available at a single point. That should provide a more targeted service for customers, or clients, of the Department. The critical saving will be made if the outcome of that is to get more people back to work and with options and opportunities to pursue a pathway back to work. Our biggest difficulty is that while we have stabilised the unemployment figures at a somewhat lower level, the number of people unemployed is still very high. That is, of course, costly, not just in human terms for the people who are unemployed but also in cost to the Exchequer and in the volume of administration the Department requires.

Deputy O'Brien asked about contingencies. The incidental expenses provide for the Department's needs in cleaning, carriage, legal fees, security, translation fees, waste disposal and other miscellaneous expenses, including the Department contingency fund. There has been an overall increase in the allocation, due to the transfer of 34 community welfare service locations and 54 FÁS premises to the Department, involving the transfer of staff from the HSE and the FÁS employment side. The cleaning provision in 2012 is €3.38 million. This covers the cost of contract cleaning of buildings as well as the cost of cleaning materials. Carriage cost €0.45 million. That is the cost of transporting goods between the Department's offices. Security provision in 2012 is €1.019 million. This is the cost of the provision of contracted security services in various offices countrywide, including static guards, patrols, key holding and emergency call-outs. It also includes new installations and upgrades of CCTV and door access control systems. Waste disposal in 2012 cost €505,000. That is the cost of the Department's waste management proposal. The provision for legal fees is almost €1 million.

The Department's contingency fund, which is just a contingency, is just over €5 million. It is held under this subhead. The purpose of the fund is to ensure that the Department would be capable of meeting any unforeseen pressures on administrative resources during the course of the year. In 2011, the contingency fund was €3.021 million. During the course of the year, €683,000, 20%, was used, in the main to pay for unexpected legal fees, leaving the balance of €2.338 million unused. Under the terms of the administrative budget agreement, the Department is allowed to carry forward €2.073 million, and this is included in the 2012 contingency fund.

Deputy Barry Cowen

I have a question about consultancy costs. In 2011 the Estimate is €800,000 and €1.331 million in 2012, an increase of 66% in total. I ask the Minister to explain the reason for this large increase. I will also ask a question which has been put to many Departments in recent weeks. Have former civil servants been rehired in the Department and is the cost of same contained in those figures?

Deputy Jonathan O’Brien

I have a question about the contingency fund which has a roll over from last year of just over €2 million and this has been added to this year. Last year only 20% of the total fund was expended and this was expenditure on legal fees. I ask the Minister to describe what are the unforeseen pressures. We know now that the cost of legal fees is certainly one of them because 20% was expended last year on this cost. What other unforeseen pressures are covered by this heading?

Deputy Joan Burton

I will deal first with Deputy Cowen's question. He asked if the consultancy services include any cost relating to the rehiring of staff. The answer is "No". One member of staff was retained - the chief medical officer - who announced his intention to retire at approximately the same time as the deadline for the retirement scheme which we inherited from the previous Administration. It is the prerogative of staff who retire to leave close to the deadline. The chief medical officer is a very important role in the Department. The Secretary General and I were of the view that we needed to retain the services of the chief medical officer while a mechanism was being put in place for the recruitment of a successor. This is the only person to be retained. I noted in a newspaper a reference to the Pensions Board taking on two staff who has previously worked in the Garda Síochána. However, the Pensions Board is not funded by the Department but by the pensions industry, broadly, and from pensions. In that case, the recruitment was for an important job and it was subject to public procurement policy and advertisement. The duties of the post include investigations into cases where it is known that contributions have not been paid properly into workers' pension funds and the post would require a person with a background in investigative work. I can provide the Deputy with a detailed note but this recruitment was not at any cost to the Department. The only appointment within the Department was the chief medical officer.

On the question of the consultancy services, this relates to changes in the business structure and IT developments in particular and where the Department needs to avail of the services of the most up-to-date analysts in order to change the crucial systems of the Department which ensure that people are paid their money. The Department pays out payments totalling €87 million a year. The key consultancy services are SDM, service delivery and modernisation, technical development advice and the provision is €171,000 for the SDM programme to meet the Department's requirements for the provision of technical development advice on implementing modern development methods and advice on the best technical design options to further develop the business object model implementation. Because of the takeover of both the HSE community welfare services and FÁS, the Department has had to realign the computer systems and programmes. In this period of transformation, we need to obtain very expert advice.

There is provision of €108,000 for business objects modelling advice and expertise. This is to meet the Department's requirement for the provision of business object modelling expertise and advice in support of its work for the ongoing development of the Department's service delivery modernisation programme. The business object modelling is the cornerstone of the Department's software development strategy and its application architecture. The architectural integrity of the BRMI is central to the future developments in the Department. This advice assisted the Department by helping to define specific modelling solutions and it supports coaching of departmental staff in the further development of in-house business object modelling capability. I refer to the NEES project, and the Pathways to Work project. The Department is establishing the new national employment and entitlements service and the cost in 2012 will be approximately €300,000. This provides for an integrated one-stop-shop. The Department has rolled out a number of changes, beginning last February in Kings Inns Street in the city centre and rolling it out next month in places such as Tallaght, Sligo and Arklow and to ten further locations this year. This will involve changes in signage and office accommodation in order to bring the structures and the services together in those locations.

I also referred to the actuarial review of the Social Insurance Fund which will cost €157,000 this year. As Minister I am required to undertake the actuarial review of the Social Insurance Fund at five-year intervals in order to establish the sustainability of the Social Insurance Fund in accordance with legislative requirements. The national pensions framework implementation was published in 2010 and a panel of researchers was established at that time and will be engaged as necessary to inform the development of technical aspects of the framework, under the headings of actuarial, legal and administrative. A study of pension fees and charges is under way and when I receive that study I hope to bring it to the committee for a full discussion. There has been much debate about high cost of our pension charges and the Department, the Pensions Board and the Central Bank have undertaken a comprehensive review of pension costs in Ireland and I hope to have that report by the end of June.

The payments strategy implementation project costs €200,000. It will modernise the payment of welfare benefits in line with wider Government policies such e-payment and the national payments strategy. We are not planning to undertake any value for money policy reviews.

The most important expenditure under the consultancy heading is that in a system so dependent on IT technology, the Department needs to have the best advice on hardware and software. Expenditure will occur, for example, if problems arise with buildings of if there is flooding of a building. Thankfully, this has not been a problem. Fire and storm damage are the kind of contingencies which might affect the Department. If the Department has a contingency fund, we can respond to the emergency, initially at least, out of the Department's resources. A major contingency would require a request to the Department of Finance. Legal costs are a constant expense for the Department as cases arise all the time. It is difficult to quantify the actual costs in advance because costs may not be known for a number of years until these are confirmed by the Taxing Master. Nevertheless, we try to ensure the estimated costs in this regard are as accurate as possible.

Deputy Barry Cowen

My final question under this heading relates to the costs associated with the training courses administered by SOLAS, formerly FÁS. Many of these courses are geared towards sectors that have collapsed in recent years. Has the Department carried out an audit or investigation into the courses it has identified as falling into that category and, if so, are there plans to take them offline, so to speak? Moreover, is there a targeted approach to training provision which takes account of the sectors in which there is a deficiency in the workforce? For example, the information technology industry is indicating there are vacancies it cannot fill because of a shortfall in necessary skills among candidates.

In regard to the hiring of external experts and so forth, is it possible for the Department, either alone or in co-operation with other Departments, to undertake an audit of the relevant expertise that may be contained within these Departments in order to make savings? It would be far preferable to be able to provide these facilities and services in-house rather than always having to engage external expertise.

Deputy Jonathan O’Brien

To pick up on that issue, the figure for consultancies shows there is a lack of expertise and skill within the Department and, I presume, across all Departments. What steps are the Minister and her ministerial colleagues taking to rectify this in terms of securing a greater degree of in-house expertise?

It is a small figure and I do not want to make a great deal out of it, but will the Minister indicate precisely what is encompassed within the allocation for official entertainment?

Deputy Joan Burton

To respond to Deputy Barry Cowen's question on training programmes, there is no SOLAS funding included in the Department's Vote. We took over what one might call the employment services side of FÁS, while SOLAS's training function remains for the time being, subject to new legislative provisions, within the remit of the Department of Education and Skills. The training provision referred to under this heading relates to administrative training for departmental staff, which is overseen by an internal training unit. The Department is responsible for the maintenance of an extensive computerised system of record-keeping in terms of workers' social insurance contributions, social welfare benefits and so on. Staff require constant updating and training to meet the requirements of a continuously updated and enhanced system.

Deputy Jonathan O'Brien asked whether more of this type of development work could be done in-house. There is a great deal of internal expertise within the Department, but we are always eager to access new developments in information technology internationally, as appropriate. The development unit of the Department's information systems division is responsible for providing information and communications technology skills training for the division's staff. It is undertaking a focused training programme to upskill staff in the software engineering competency required to support new developments. Other focused training programmes are being designed to provide additional competencies, as required, in the division. Additional training requirements identified through the performance management development scheme, PMDS, process are also being dealt with by the unit. In Sligo, for instance, a process is under way to scan all hard copy forms into the computer system. While such a process is slow to begin with, once the documents are online all subsequent updates and queries relating to customers' records can be processed electronically. Numerous social welfare offices are introducing automatic computer-based signing rather than requiring customers to complete forms manually. We are not quite at the point of having paperless offices, but the volume of hard copy documentation is significantly reducing as information is brought online on an ongoing basis.

The official entertainment subhead provides for expenses relating to official entertainment provided by me and senior departmental officials. It covers beverages, lunches, evening functions and associated travel costs. For example, the Department receives a number of overseas delegations for engagement and co-operation on social welfare matters. The expenditure limits for this provision are set by the Department of Finance and must be strictly adhered to. Where limits are exceeded, the approval of the Accounting Officer must be sought and all invoices and receipts are required to be certified to the effect that the entertainment was necessary. The allocation for 2012 under this subhead is €10,000 and the provisional outturn for 2011 was €1,856. It is useful to note that the corresponding figure was €31,000 in 2006, €42,000 in 2007 and €38,000 in 2008. It reduced substantially in 2009 to €15,000 and €7,000 in 2010. As I indicated, we managed to reduce it to below €2,000 last year. To date in 2012, we have spent €274. We hosted the head of the OECD recently, for instance, which included giving him lunch. Another example was a conference on illness issues and wellness at work which took place recently, during which we brought an international expert who attended a dinner. The provision is quite meagre and we intend to keep it that way.

Deputy Jonathan O’Brien

The word "entertainment" tends to give cause for concern, but the Minister has given a very satisfactory response in this regard.

Chairman

We will move to the next programme which deals with pensions.

Deputy Barry Cowen

The Minister referred to the increase in the provision for pensions year on year, based on greater longevity, improved health service facilities and so on. She described this as a challenge for the future. Is there a long-term provision within departmental Estimates to allow it to meet this challenge, or is the Minister concerned that the Department will have difficulty in meeting demand? If it is the latter, how does she propose to address that challenge and are there specific measures under consideration in this regard? Legislation was introduced last year to raise the age of entitlement to the State pension, which will offer some relief in the long term. However, I am somewhat unnerved by the Minister's indication that she is challenged by the figures. Will she elaborate on this?

Deputy Jonathan O’Brien

Deputy Barry Cowen has covered the point I wished to raise.

Deputy Joan Burton

The Department is undertaking a five year actuarial review of pensions. Those in receipt of a contributory pension have qualified for it by way of contributions or credits. The expenditure for 2011 was €3.6 billion. The expected expenditure for 2012 is €3.7 billion. There is an increase of €129 million, or 3.6%, in this regard. Most of this is paid to people living in Ireland, while a small amount is paid to Irish citizens who are living abroad and have an entitlement to pensions here. There has been an increase in the average number of recipients because larger numbers are reaching pension age. That is the main issue in this regard.

The critical aspect of this matter is that in the long term we must balance what we receive in contributions with what we spend. When the actuarial review is completed - I hope to discuss the review in detail with the committee when it is published - we will obtain a sense of the provision we need to make. If there are not sufficient contributions, this very much limits what we can do. When the actuarial review is brought forward, I should be able to supply the committee with further information. The subvention, that is, the shortage, in respect of contributions to the social insurance fund is just under €1.9 billion. General taxation is, therefore, making a contribution to the fund. During the boom years there would have been a surplus in the fund.

The actuarial review should provide very good data for demographics. We all know that individuals are living longer and that more people are reaching the relevant age and receiving pensions. It used to be the case that the rate of survival after reaching pension age was relatively low. People may now survive three or four decades past that age. We must ask, therefore, how, as a society, we can properly fund pensions. As stated, the actual expenditure is increasing. The deficit in the fund is €1.816 billion.

Deputy Barry Cowen

Is the Minister stating that in comparison to the Estimate at the beginning of the year, the Department will be 3.6% over budget? In other words, the Estimate was out by 3.6%.

Deputy Joan Burton

The amount we are going to spend is increasing because more people are reaching pension age and those over 66 years of age are living longer.

Deputy Barry Cowen

I would have thought that figure would have been easy to calculate at the beginning of the year.

Deputy Joan Burton

There is a 3.6% increase in provision or the cost involved.

Deputy Barry Cowen

That is into the future.

Deputy Joan Burton

Yes.

Deputy Barry Cowen

When are the results of the actuarial review expected to be published?

Deputy Joan Burton

That is what we have provided for-----

Deputy Barry Cowen

I presume provision is made in the figure for consultancy fees. When will the review be published?

Deputy Joan Burton

I hope it will be published by the end of June. That is the indication I have received.

Deputy Barry Cowen

Will it be possible for the committee to discuss the review as soon as possible after its publication?

Deputy Joan Burton

I will be presenting it to the committee. Publication of the five year actuarial review has always been an important event. I hope to publish it quite soon after I receive it. I hope I will receive it in June.

Deputy Barry Cowen

The Minister appears to be indicating that there will be a number of challenges. She seems to have a fair idea of what the review is going to reveal. We know that, thankfully, people are living longer.

Deputy Joan Burton

We have a great deal of data for the increase in the number of older people and those who have been contributing. For example, during the past 20 to 30 years it has been possible for self-employed persons to pay pension contributions. As the proportion of people who reach the age of 66 years, including those who are self-employed and paying PRSI pension contributions, increases, the number of claimants is likely to continue to rise. I do not want to speculate on the figures other than to say the demographics relating to payments to older people who have retired and payments in respect of children present a challenge. In both instances, thankfully this is because the numbers are increasing. However, that gives rise to a cost.

Deputy Barry Cowen

I will not press the matter further until such time as the figures become available. Perhaps the Minister might then be in a position to indicate how she proposes to meet the challenges involved.

Chairman

We will move to the next programme which relates to working age income supports.

Deputy Barry Cowen

There is one issue that arises in respect of this programme, namely, the range of one-parent family payments which amount to €5.7 billion in total. In the context of the changes introduced in the Social Welfare and Pensions Act 2012, the Minister obviously sees many savings to be made in this area, with which not all of us would agree. Is she in a position to quantify how the figures for next year will compare with those for this year? I was not present when she said this, but she previously indicated that she would be seeking funding from the Department of Finance at budget time in order to meet the deficit in this regard. Has she advanced her position further on this matter? Is she in a position to comment or will it be necessary, as was the case under the previous programme we discussed, for her to wait until later in the year to do so?

Deputy Jonathan O’Brien

My questions relate to jobseeker's benefit and how the changes in this regard are going to be implemented and how they will be calculated in the context of the number of days now considered reckonable. Will the Minister comment on the position on the exceptional and urgent needs payments? Again, a drop in expenditure is envisaged. It is also indicated that there will be a decrease in the average number of recipients. Will the Minister comment on these two matters?

Deputy Joan Burton

The provisional outturn for the average number of recipients of one-parent family payments for 2011 was 89,900. The expected number for 2012 is 89,299. This represents a decrease of 601, or 0.7%, in the number of those claiming these payments. The overall expenditure outturn for 2011 was €1.088 billion and the expected outturn for 2012 is €1.063 billion. This represents a decrease of approximately €25 million. We expect to make a number of savings in this area in the context of fraud control. Approximately €8 million of the total of €25 million to which I referred will be saved in this way. We are discontinuing concurrent multiple-qualified child increases. This will amount to a saving in the region of €6 million. There will also be a reduction in the upper age limit for qualified children. In 2012 no changes are envisaged for existing customers. The change will affect new entrants to the system. There will be a saving of €2 million in 2013 in this area. The reductions in earnings disregards will lead to a saving of approximately €14 million, while means testing will give rise to a saving of €2 million. A number of inter-scheme adjustments we are introducing will cost in the region of €3.1 million. All of this will lead to an overall saving of €25 million.

What we are doing is occurring in the context of our discussions with those who are providing funding support for Ireland. We have engaged in extensive discussions on moving to a system of supports that will be based on those which obtain in countries with good social welfare models and that will provide for a strong emphasis on encouraging people to return to employment or avail of other options.

Deputies will be aware that under the old CE schemes people received a full one-parent allowance and also a full community employment payment. For a person with, for example, with two children and an adult dependant, the total payment was up to approximately €500 per week for completing 19.5 hours. We simply did not have the budget to continue to make the double payments. It was very expensive. Therefore, we have discontinued doing that. We have also undertaken a number of exercises to cut down any abuse of the system or inappropriate claiming and we have targeted savings to the value of €8 million. Our special investigations unit undertook a number of targeted exercises last year which yielded quite significant savings where people were claiming one-parent allowance to which they were not entitled perhaps because they privately had a partner which they had not declared.

Deputy Barry Cowen

Having regard to the commitment not to reduce social welfare rates, if one looks at a range of payments under this heading, there are reductions across the board with expenditure in respect of exceptional and urgent needs payments down 18% and the number of recipients down 16%. I would have thought that the opposite would be the case given the times we are in. Why is that the position? Has there been any examination of it? For example, it would be nice to see a heading indicating the number of applicants versus the number of recipients, or the number of appeals versus the number of recipients.

I am cognisant of the debate on the domiciliary care allowance that we had in the Dáil last week when we heard that some 50% of appeals have been successful. I know the Minister said she would carry out a review in that instance to investigate why that might be the case. When I note the urgent needs payment expenditures and figures such as that, I wonder if we need the figures to ascertain if a review is necessary in that area also?

I note that jobseeker's benefit accounts for 16% and 14% of reductions. When the budget was announced initially, it was indicated that a certain element of savings were to be made across the Department. I know the Minister has since climbed down in regard community employment schemes and payments to young audits with disabilities and that amounted to approximately €50 million. The Minister had initially planned on saving €440 million across the Department under budget 2012 and that change brings the planned savings down €410 million. These figures half way through the year indicate there are further savings to be made. What is the projected saving to be made at the end of the year compared to what the Minister had provided for at the beginning of year? How does that compare with the level of savings she expects to make in the forthcoming years, as laid out by the Government in the programme for Government?

Deputy Kevin Humphreys

Under the subhead A11, there is a growth in expenditure, even though it is small, on the farm assist scheme. The commentary in the media indicates there is practically a boom in the agricultural sector. I am curious about those figures.

Deputy Jonathan O’Brien

Will the Minister comment on the figures in respect of jobseeker's benefit? I agree with Deputy Cowen that if one notes the figures across this section, the budget has been cut by 7.9%. Almost 8% less being spent in this area. It is clear that some of our vulnerable in society are bearing those cuts. We talked about consultancy services and I wonder how much was spent on an impact analysis with regard to the implementation of these cuts.

Deputy Joan Burton

I will take Deputy O'Brien's question first. He referred to the change from the six-day week to the five-day week in terms of social welfare. I apologise for not answering his question earlier. Where a jobseeker's benefit recipient works for part of a week, the payment entitlement will be based on a five-day week rather than a six-day week. The Deputy will appreciate that much social welfare provision was established from the 1930s onwards when it was common for people to work a half day on a Saturday. What we are doing here is moving to provide for what is the norm, which is that people work a five-day week and next year we will also make changes in the legislation, as I said at budget time, to take account of Sunday. Where people work on a Sunday, that will be taken into account in terms of their earnings next year. In the last four years the numbers in receipt of a jobseeker's payment who also worked on a part-time or casual basis have increased by almost 200% from 28,221 people at the end of 2008 to 84,017 at the end of 2011 when the budget was being prepared. At the end of March this year 84,000 people were in this position on the live register and some 41,000 of them were claiming jobseeker's benefit. In line with other budget measures, the effect of this measure will not impact on any person whose sole income is from social welfare, that is, the headline rate of €188 a week for a single person will be unaffected if the person does not have any additional income from employment in respect of days worked. It will only apply to those who have earned additional income from working some days during the week. It is estimated that savings in the order of €5.9 million will be achieved in 2012. People who are in receipt of jobseeker's benefit who work three days a week at present receive €94 of the €188 of jobseeker's payment in addition to the income they get from employment. The income from employment will vary according to the rates of pay and the amount of time worked each day but as jobseeker's benefit is not means tested, no regard is held to this when paying the €94. There have been some suggestions that this weekly mix of income from employment and some jobseeker's payment has resulted in some employers experiencing difficulties in getting staff to return to or avail of full-time work. The effect of the measure will be to reduce the contribution from jobseeker's benefit to the weekly amount of total income, welfare plus wages combined, and help towards a reduction in the reliance on the welfare system among those who currently avail of a mix of welfare and earned income.

One of the steps we could try to take to reduce the total cost of social welfare, and perhaps concentrate on people who have no work at all, would be to see if we could get people to work more days and therefore improve their income through employment as opposed to a mix of social welfare and employment income. It is a complex area because people may have various reasons for not doing this, including non-availability of extra hours. Many people would work a full week if they could get it. In other cases, people may have family arrangements where working a few days of week suits them better than working a full week but, without a doubt, if we could get some of those 80,000 plus people back into full-time employment, that would considerably lift the burden in terms of social welfare expenditure.

The spend on the special needs payment has been declining for a number of years. In 2008, we spent €82 million on exceptional needs payments, in 2009 the figure was €79 million, in 2010 it was €69 million, in 2011 it was €62 million and in 2012 we estimate we will spend €52 million. In 2012 we estimate that we will spend €52 million. I said previously that community welfare officers came over from the Health Service Executive, HSE, to the Department and when they did I asked the Department to do a detailed analysis on a county basis on special needs payments, and also to get a sense of the type of payments being made throughout the country. I restricted some payments, for instance in the greater Dublin area there was an average contribution to Holy Communion costs of €300 whereas in some counties – Donegal, Sligo and Leitrim – there were no payments at all for that category. Exceptional needs payments are literally for "exceptional needs". I can get the results of the analysis that was carried out for the committee. I provided it by way of response to a parliamentary question at the time but I can get it for the committee. In many cases, for instance, it is to provide for the cost of additional spend on clothes, to give money to people for confinement and to help with the expenses of a new baby. Again, those types of costs have declined significantly in terms of clothes and standard school uniforms. Members are aware that one can get excellent value for money in many shops and it behoves the community welfare service to try to administer the payments in a sympathetic way but also to genuinely seek value for money because the service is costly.

Another issue arises that is reflected in the guidelines. The Department recently clarified the circumstances under which payments were being made towards the furnishing of local authority accommodation arising from the recommendation of the review I asked the community welfare service to carry out when it came into the Department. The Department was being asked in a number of cases to furnish new accommodation rather than the developer, the owner of the property or the local authority. We have clarified the position in that regard which will result in savings to the Department. New accommodation cost us €8.7 million in 2011. Household appliances cost €5.3 million for those who got new accommodation and for the replacement of household appliances. Rent deposits cost €3.7 million. Furniture cost €2.4 million. Floor coverings cost €1.7 million. Bedding cost €1.3 million. Repairs and maintenance cost €1.34 million. Clothing expenses were very high; adult clothing was €6.8 million and children's clothing cost €4 million. That is a total of €10 million. We also made contributions of more than €5 million to funeral and burial costs. We spent €1.9 million, almost €2 million, on buggies, prams and cots. We also helped people with mortgage interest arrears and other household bill arrears amounting to more than €7 million. We spent just under €1 million helping people who were having babies and €374,000 on hospital requirements – people buying pyjamas and suchlike to go into hospital. Over €2 million was spent on travel costs, €1.3 million on heating and then smaller amounts on a series of miscellaneous payments. I will make those details available to Members.

Interestingly, since the community welfare service joined the Department we are also more capable of looking at how payments made in one region compare to those in another region. In some areas there is a tradition of paying for certain things which was not the case in other areas. I refer, for example, to Holy Communion expenses.

Chairman

What about the farm assist question?

Deputy Kevin Humphreys

It must have been a rural Deputy that asked the question.

Chairman

He must have a cousin down the country.

Deputy Joan Burton

I am happy to say that we now have both a Dublin Deputy and a Deputy from the west because the answer relates to both of them. There is an increase in the average number of recipients offset by a decrease in the average value of payments in the 2012 budget. The average number of recipients in 2011 was 11,000. In 2012 it is estimated to be approximately 11,785, an increase of approximately 785 people. Most of those involved, as the Deputy from the west would be aware, are small farmers in particular in the western counties. Again, people are aware that many smaller farmers were working in construction during the boom so they had off-farm income as well as farm income but since the collapse in the construction sector in particular, fewer additional sources of income are available off-farm. That is probably one of the reasons for the change in the numbers. For instance, we have 1,400 people getting farm assist in Donegal and 1,100 people in Galway. I can inform Deputy Cowen that there are only 177 people in receipt of farm assist in Laois but that might be the responsibility of his colleagues.

Deputy Colm Keaveney: What is the number of payments in Offaly?

Deputy Joan Burton

A total of 133 people are in receipt of the payment in Offaly. There are probably very good farms in Offaly. The biggest number of payments goes to Mayo where 1,800 are in receipt of farm assist.

Chairman

The next item for discussion is the working age employment supports

Deputy Jonathan O’Brien

I wish to return to jobseeker's benefit and how it is now being calculated. I take on board what the Minister said but the reality is that employers are struggling and are putting employees on reduced hours and jobseeker's benefit is a critical support for those employees in the short term. Someone who has had his or her working week reduced by two days is now getting a top-up of €37 compared to a previous payment of €62. That is a difference of approximately €25 per week. It might not mean much to the Department in the greater scheme of things but to the individual it can make a difference in terms of keeping the lights on every week or leaving the heating on for an extra hour.

The way the calculation is now being done is detrimental. We are talking about people who want to work. Much has been said by various Ministers previously about people who do not want to work and who have become dependent on social welfare but we are talking about people who are in part-time employment who strive to become full-time employees and we are cutting their benefits. That approach does not work. It is something the Minister must re-examine. I accept we will revisit the matter next year in terms of Sunday pay which will impact again on people. The Department must examine the matter.

Deputy Joan Burton

If we can get more people working more paid hours the consequential savings for social protection are significant. We have given employers who take on people who have been on the live register or on JobBridge an 18 month break from employer's PRSI. We are very much trying to help employers but the critical thing is to try to get more people working more hours. That will actually result in more economic activity. Many employers have said they find it difficult to get people to work more hours because of the way the social welfare structure operates at times.

If somebody works all day on Sunday and earns a significant sum of money, it is reasonable to take that into account in assessing his means. The system will be changed to reflect that. Certain employees who work on weekdays have told me that people who work on a Sunday may enjoy much more favourable circumstances. This has been raised with me very strongly, particularly from the shop floor in the retail sector. Such views are expressed to me all the time and I must give them due consideration.

It is critical for the economy to have more people working more hours. When this occurs, the cost of social welfare decreases. This means savings can be made and that better funding is available for certain recipients, such as pensioners, who comprise an absolute priority.

Chairman

We will proceed to the working age employment supports.

Deputy Barry Cowen

This topic covers a wide range of payments. I want to raise three issues in this area, the first of which concerns community employment schemes. At the time of the budget, there was a commitment to cut the training and materials grants to save €40 million, approximately, on community employment schemes. Following the backlash from many of us and those in areas we represent in regard to schemes, expected contact has not been made. The Government promised a review in this regard but it has not yet been published. However, the Minister committed that no community employment scheme would be lost and that no programme would be cancelled, and she stated the communities they serve would not be impinged upon by virtue of any savings made. The Minister gave a commitment to find funding from another source in her Department in the event of a relevant party proving he or she could no longer meet a commitment he had given continually in his or her community. By virtue of the figures being put in front of us, is it not the case that there is still a 10% cut on the table? Programmes cannot be committed to while the uncertainty continues to obtain. Is the cut not now very real and has it not been confirmed by the figures up to June, which is six months into the year? How does the Minister respond to that?

With regard to the back-to-education allowance, we are repeating ourselves a lot. There has been a reduction in recipients in the order of 3%. Based on the representations I have had in my constituency, I would imagine this percentage could be multiplied many times. I would imagine that there are many more applications. We would like to see the figures. If we cannot see them now, we would like to see them later in the year or next year. We need to know how many applicants have been refused and the reasons therefor. If we can garner all the relevant information on the exceptional needs payment, to which the Minister referred, surely we can garner much information on the back-to-education allowance. This relates to the point the Minister made on the consultancy fee increase of 66% and the new IT systems being put in place. With all the expenditure in this area, I hope all the information on all those in receipt of working-age payments will be available at the press of a button. We should know the deficiencies and how to close the gaps.

I welcome the further increases in regard to JobBridge and congratulate everybody concerned therewith. I realise there were teething problems initially. There are still some exceptions to the rule that we all come across, but I understand efforts have been made to address those issues. I welcome progress made in that regard.

One issue that strikes me in respect of the working age employment support systems in place leads me to believe there ought to be better integration between the Department of Social Protection and the Department of Education and Skills. There seems to be a lack of specific targeting of those between 18 and 25, for example. It is alleged that the unemployment rate among those available to work in that age category is between 20% and 25%. I suspect some 20% to 25% of this age group has emigrated, both out of necessity and, in fewer instances, choice. Therefore, up to 50% of those in the age group are not available or partaking in the economy. This represents a grave loss to the economy on many levels.

Our solution to the problem needs to be much more targeted. We must provide greater opportunities in the agrifood industry. With the abolition of milk quotas in 2015, there will need to be greater emphasis on production in this area. We need many improvements to the range of courses being provided by colleges in the sector. Many farming families and young graduates are moving into the sector and we must be seen to have an outlet for them when they come out of education. The Minister needs to expand the JobBridge programme even further to target specifically the age group in question.

When the crash in the construction sector occurred, many were half way through their apprenticeships and lost out by virtue of the collapse of their company or employer. Have we targeted these people? Have we sought to find means by which they can finish their apprenticeships or have we pointed them to alternative areas where their expertise could be used? Organisations such as Bord na Móna and the ESB provided excellent apprenticeships in the past. Many people to whom I have spoken in manufacturing believe the standard of those coming out of our training system, such as fitters, is sometimes not as high as that set in years past by companies such as Bord na Móna and the ESB. Now that these companies are not offering apprenticeships, we need to ascertain whether semi-State companies or other employers could sponsor people in the relevant age group to improve their skills and meet the demand that exists not only in IT but also in other areas, such as heavy duty manufacturing, in respect of which those in the know have told me there is a gap.

We could examine ways in which young people who are not in education, employment or training six months after qualifying for the jobseeker's allowance could participate in a strengthened community employment scheme as opposed to cutting their benefits further. The latter is understandable but may be the easy option as it places the onus on the individual. The Minister is putting systems in place to tag these people when they enter the system initially. However, based on the stark and quite obvious figures that exist, we really need a young, educated workforce committed to the country and economy if they are to be revitalised. With perhaps 50% of this age group not partaking in the economy at present, the onus must be on the Department of Social Protection, in conjunction with the Department of Education and Skills, to target those affected and make inroads in this area. The young adults must be shown that there is a concerted effort to include them and enhance their working age employment supports.

Deputy Sandra McLellan

Expenditure on JobBridge has increased by 704% and expenditure on Tús has increased by 490%. By contrast, expenditure on community employment has been cut by 9.5%. Jobs initiative funding has been cut by 9.3%, as has that for the rural social scheme. The back-to-education allowance has been cut by 8.9% and the back-to-work allowance remains closed to new applicants. The meaningful schemes that involved valuable work in the attainment of formal qualifications have all been cut while an internship scheme that displaces real jobs and serves as a platform for exploitation is enhanced by 700%. This pretty much says it all and if the Government does not recognise there is something inherently wrong with this, it does not bode well for those on the dole queue or for the economy as a whole. Will the Minister arrange for a Supplementary Estimate to restore the funding for community employment schemes' training and materials budgets at least to their 2011 level? Community employment, CE, schemes nationwide face closure due to these cuts. Moreover, community crèches cannot recruit CE participants due to the cuts to lone parent's allowance and participation has become unaffordable.

Deputy Joan Burton

I will take up some of the comments made by Deputies Cowen and McLellan. Deputy McLellan should note the Estimate is €983 million, which, to be clear, constitutes an increase of €121 million in spending. I hope for Sinn Féin economics that an increase of €121 million is acknowledged as an increase, as it is real. Deputy McLellan appears to have a problem with some of that increase going to new initiatives and new areas. I very much share some of the concerns expressed by Deputy Cowen and feel a strong sense of obligation in that our young people are our greatest asset and resource. Consequently, all members are challenged to find positive ways for people to return to education, training or to a full job. This is the reason the Government is spending an additional €121 million. It is important that Sinn Féin should acknowledge that increase, rather than seeking to condemn it because were there cuts, total expenditure would be less. Instead, total expenditure has risen by a significant amount in extremely difficult recessionary times. Moreover, the Government spends far more on such supports then does Deputy McLellan's party in government in the North. As this is the reality, the Deputy cannot have one standard for south of the Border and another for north of the Border.

From May 28, JobBridge will be extended to lone parents and people with a disability. While the Deputy may personally disapprove of JobBridge, I have taken a lot of questions, including Topical Issue matters raised in the Dáil and Adjournment matters in the Seanad, from members of her party who have asked me to take that step. I must tell them the Deputy does not approve of JobBridge and perceives it in negative rather than positive terms. JobBridge is a particular initiative to give an opportunity to people, including those who may be changing their field because they had been in construction, who now are trying a new area following training or education but who in the current climate simply cannot get a job because they have no experience. Thus far, the feedback has been extremely positive. As the scheme operates by means of the Internet, it is open for all to see what are the offers, which is good. Thankfully, many people follow it on social media and if they see an internship being offered which they consider to be inappropriate, they are good enough to get in contact with the Department. I find this to be quite helpful because this new scheme is a first for Ireland. The reason there has been such an increase in respect of JobBridge is that although the Department announced it on the last day of June, it did not really start then as very few places were taken up until September. Similarly, Tús is a programme that had been designed by my predecessor as Minister but it had not actually commenced by the time I came into the Department. I thought it was worthwhile to ascertain whether opportunities could be offered to people who had been unemployed for more than one year by giving them an opportunity, under the same terms and conditions as CE, to get a one-year placement. At present, I believe approximately 4,000 people have taken up this opportunity.

As for community employment, the Department is providing €315 million for community employment in respect of 23,300 participants. This comprises approximately 1,400 supervisors, who earn between €45,000 and €47,000 per year, as well as more than 22,000 participants. Employment as a community employment supervisor is much valued, for understandable reasons, as is employment as a Tús supervisor since that scheme got up and going. These schemes are designed to do two things and it is important to consider both of them. The first is the contribution they make to their local community in respect of service delivery assistance in certain areas. Second, one must consider the experience of the individual participant. It is critical to have as much information as possible in respect of the experience of the individual because over the years, a number of studies of CE have suggested the success rate in terms of people getting employment is rather less than might be expected. Like most Deputies present, I have huge familiarity with community employment and am aware that some people who participate in community employment schemes are very far from the labour market and there is a quite lengthy process of helping people to get involved in the labour market. However, the Tús scheme is very similar, being a one-year scheme. Consequently, the fact the Department has expanded by 9,000 the number of places available in respect of JobBridge and Tús gives 9,000 people an opportunity not previously available to do particular things. Moreover, the feedback from both JobBridge and Tús has been relatively positive. Only yesterday, I visited a company, which was able to tell me of someone who had been taken on under the JobBridge initiative and who now had a job with the company. As there have been a fair number of similar stories, thus far it certainly is showing positive indications.

As for Deputy Cowen's comment about the collapse in apprenticeships, this issue is of critical importance and is something about which everyone must think. Obviously, the training side of apprenticeship is the responsibility of SOLAS, which is under the remit of the Department of Education and Skills. However, I note that in other countries, the use of apprenticeships is wider than has been the case in Ireland, certainly over the past 30 or 40 years. In Ireland, apprenticeships are associated with being almost entirely male and almost all construction-related with the possible exception of hairdressing, where the gender ratio is closer to 50:50. However, a much wider variety of apprenticeships is available in other countries and this is something we should explore to ascertain whether more opportunities can be provided.

One point that has been of particular interest to me since the Department took responsibility for the employment services side of FÁS in January last is that with the JobBridge experience, more than 9,000 employers have offered to host internships. However, there is nothing like the same level of offers from employers to local social welfare offices where they need an employee, which pertains to the relationship between employers and the FÁS employment services. Cork is an exception, as there have been good relationships there and the relationship has been particularly strong with the pharmaceutical industry in Cork Harbour. However, what has happened in respect of the employment services is that entities like multinationals recruit through recruitment companies. One challenge for the Department and for me as Minister is to try to recreate a strong relationship between employers and vacancies for employment down at the level of the local social welfare national employment and entitlements service, NEES, office. That is very important for the morale of those who are unemployed because there is nothing as depressing for such as person than to hear there were vacancies but they had been given no opportunity to pitch for them. To some extent some employers might think unemployed people are not interested in a job under this scheme because the word has gone out that social welfare benefits are more attractive than a job. That is not true. Well over 75% of people on social welfare and jobseeker's are on only €188 a week. I do not know of any job that pays like that. We have complications of families with large numbers of children, say, where their social welfare receipts are higher. The majority on jobseeker's, however, are single individuals just getting €188. There is much work to be done in this area. I am looking at everything in employment supports very closely to see if we can produce for the €1 billion we are spending more tailored supports and other options that will help people get back into or closer to employment.

I am happy we have been allocated an overall increase of €121 million. Community employment schemes came over to the Department after the Christmas holidays. It is very much a work in progress. There is a large amount of data supplied by the different schemes. I am not aware of any scheme that has closed. If Deputy McLellan is aware of one, she should inform me. Every year, 20 to 30 schemes close for a variety of reasons and arrangements are made for people on them to transfer to other schemes. I am happy we have retained the numbers involved in community employment schemes and the supervisors. There was much scaremongering in this area with claims there would be a reduction in numbers. There has been no reduction but, in fact, an expansion of numbers. The community employment schemes have retained their number while at the same time Tús has 4,000 people plus supervisors and JobBridge has 5,000 people on it with significant participation. The Deputy's colleagues have come to me, along with Members from all parties in the House, asking about extending the internship scheme. I am happy that on 28 May, lone parents and people on disability payments, if interested, will be able to access a JobBridge place as well.

Deputy Barry Cowen

I wish to give the Minister an example that I was told about some weeks ago. It formed part of what I had to say earlier. The Minister stated there should be better integration with the Department of Education and Skills regarding the provision of training programmes, that we must recognise the gap that exists between the two, that there should be tailored supports, that we should target skills to meet demands and so forth. It is talking the talk. Is it walking the walk?

Some weeks ago, for example, the Taoiseach, after consultation between Government parties, came forward with the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform, Deputy Howlin, with details about the setting up of Irish Water as a subsidiary of Bord Gáis. Despite the fact we could not get any specifics as to the mechanics involved and the costs that will be incurred by the general public, there was great play made on the fact that up to 2,000 jobs would be made available through the installation of water meters across the country. It was stated those on the live register could take the opportunity to take up these jobs over several years. Yet, several constituents informed me they had called into the local employment offices to get some training in water meter installation to take advantage of these very opportunities spoken about by the Taoiseach only to be informed no training in this area is provided by the State. There is the biggest gap that the Taoiseach himself did not even think to fill before he made such an announcement.

While there is great cohesion between Government parties on putting a spin on something, can they at least get the foundation right in the first instance? If there are to be such opportunities in water meter installation, then we should put in place training courses to allow people come off the live register and acquire proper accreditation. City and Guilds has taken advantage of it and is charging €650 for a two-day course in water meter installation. If that is allowed to continue, we do not know where we stand. There has to be better co-operation and integration to ensure the message is consistent.

Deputy Joan Burton

I think that is a critical issue when there are opportunities for employment. My Department is not involved in the training but we do have representation on the SOLAS board. The SOLAS legislation will come before the Dáil later in the year. We are still on the training side with the old FÁS as well the synergy with the VECs and the development of new education and training boards. When that legislation comes before the Dáil we will have new structures.

I share the Deputy's view that the provision of appropriate training is critically important. I will not answer directly about Irish Water. However, retrofitting for warmer homes is another area where there are potentially significant employment opportunities. We have reconfigured social welfare regions to provide for a more detailed focus around the country. As we roll out the IT and the new offices, hopefully that will be one of the bonuses. I am very impressed by the number of employers who have connected with the JobBridge website and, in turn, have offered job vacancies. The Department's representative in SOLAS reports to the Cabinet sub-committee on employment. Perhaps I can come back to the Deputy at a later stage on that. My Department is not directly involved in the Irish Water issue.

Deputy Barry Cowen

I welcome all the information given about the carer's allowance subheading and I know it is proscribed. Unfortunately, it does not paint the full and exact picture on the number of successful applicants and appeals and otherwise.

Chairman

We will work on getting that in for the July Estimates process. It is a point well made already.

Deputy Barry Cowen

That will marry itself better to what is in front of us here today. Similar to what I stated about the working age payments, there are reductions in many areas which are as a direct result of the budget measures. Is that budgetary trend to continue in forthcoming budgets? Is it too early in the year to start the auction that goes on between various ministries on what funds will be available to them? What was the Minister's provision for savings in this Department at the beginning of the year, what is the projection at the end of the year and how does that compare with what she expects to do next year?

Deputy Jonathan O’Brien

On the cuts which were announced in the budget to those on disability allowance, I note the Minister paused and there is a review ongoing. Can we have an update on the review? I would presume from the figures which have been provided to us today that those cuts are still contained within the Estimates. Where is that review at currently?

Deputy Joan Burton

Deputy Cowen asked about the overall saving, which is €475 million. The overall spend is pretty much the same. There is only a €4 million drop in it. That is because, as I stated, the number of those unemployed has continued at a very high level and at a much higher level than was forecast by the previous Administration when it did the forecasts for the troika.

The numbers on domiciliary care allowance continue to increase. Since the domiciliary care allowance came in to the Department of Social Protection during 2009, there have been in excess of 6,000 additional domiciliary care awards. That is a net increase of 3,000 because, obviously, some children age out of the scheme and go on to disability entitlement when they reach the qualifying age. The spend on domiciliary care allowance has increased by 4%.

Deputy Barry Cowen

Surely, the review, which the Minister called for last week, will adjust her figures greatly from what appears here for this year.

Deputy Joan Burton

Perhaps it is a tribute to the Department of Social Protection, but over the past four or five years the Department has taken over a significant number of new areas, of which domiciliary care allowance is one. There are many changes which have been feeding through since 2009. One reason many organisations representing those with a disability have always expressed the preference their payments would be made through the Department of Social Protection is because all of the historical evidence shows where those schemes have moved to the Department, the numbers being awarded the payments have increased significantly. So it has proven in the case of the domiciliary care allowance. At present, 24,000 or 25,000 receive it, 6,000 of whom have been awarded since the Department took over the scheme. One can see the Department has awarded the domiciliary care allowance in many more cases than was the practice when it was spread throughout the HSE and right around the country where different standards may have been applied in different areas.

The point about the Department's schemes is that they are uniform and based in law. If one can show one meets the relevant criteria, one is entitled to that allowance or payment whereas in the old HSE, they were more based on administrative schemes and there could have been variations between how it was administered in one part of the country and another. Not only have the numbers on domiciliary care allowance gone up significantly, but so have the numbers on carer's allowance, which is an important allowance. In 2011, there were 50,475 carers in 2011 and the estimate of the number for 2012 is 52,400.

I am anxious about the narrative developed by some around social welfare that it is all about cuts. When one looks at the schemes, it is far from it. As Minister, I have been happy not only to maintain spending, but to expand the numbers significantly. This year there will be almost 2,000 extra carers to whom we will give a carer's allowance and that will be at a cost of almost €17 million extra. Particularly for those who have been critical of social welfare spending, our social welfare spending has been maintained. For instance, I draw the members' attention to the respite care grant where the spend will increase this year, from €130 million to €132 million. The only reason I am concerned about this kind of debate is that much of it, which stresses cuts and nothing else, does not recognise that those in work, through their taxes and PRSI contributions, plus our borrowings are funding social welfare payments of €20 billion. I would be concerned that people in some cases are causing unnecessary anxiety to those in receipt of various payments. Some may feel that in the middle of a referendum campaign one should up the ante by having a dialogue which suggests the Department of Social Protection is only cutting while, in fact, the evidence is to the contrary. I noted some stating how costed their pre-budget submissions have been. Keeping a spend of more than €20 billion on social welfare in these difficult times is a demanding task but I have been happy my Cabinet colleagues have supported me in achieving that.

Carers occupy an important role in Irish society and, as Minister, I have been happy not only to continue the level of support, which was expanded very significantly by previous Administrations, but also to continue to expand it.

Deputy Cowen asked about the review. I do not yet have the outcome of that review. I expressed the view, which is long held and based on my experience, that the payment for a child of 16 should go to the parent, not to the child. The parent should be in command of the income supports the child receives.

On domiciliary care allowance, it is important to state that approximately 40% of the parents who receive the domiciliary care allowance also receive some element of carer's support or other supports such as respite. The total package, about which we in Ireland should be honest, is approximately €17,000 in terms of payments into the family where there is a child for whom the parents qualify for domiciliary care allowance. This is a very significant level of payment when compared with payments made by the Administration in the North, of which Sinn Féin is part. People at work willingly pay their taxes in order that others such as carers can be supported and receive domiciliary care allowance for their children with particular needs. We should acknowledge the efforts made by taxpayers to make these contributions. It is a very different debate from the one I read about on cuts of €5 billion in the North. The North is much smaller than the Republic, yet the Administration there has signed up to cuts of £3 billion, or approximately €5 billion. We should not ignore the sacrifices taxpayers and PRSI contributors are making to those most in need.

The trend on domiciliary care allowance and respite care is that expenditure and the numbers are increasing.

Deputy Barry Cowen

Is the Minister waiting for the review to analyse the position in more detail?

Deputy Joan Burton

Yes.

Deputy Jonathan O’Brien

I am disappointed that the Minister is referring to the situation in the North.

Chairman

Does the Deputy have a question?

Deputy Jonathan O’Brien

If the Minister wants to compare like for like between the Twenty-six Counties and the Six Counties, perhaps we might consider her pay. Ministers in the Six Counties are paid considerably less. If she wants to introduce that argument, I am happy to have it, but we are talking about-----

Deputy Joan Burton

MLAs are paid considerably less than the Deputy.

Chairman

We need to keep to the subject matter.

Deputy Jonathan O’Brien

I agree with the Minister absolutely. It reinforces the fact that we are not comparing like with like when comparing the position in the North with that in the South.

While I might have misheard her, I believe the Minister said she was happy to have maintained her Department's budget. In reality, there has been a reduction in its budget of €811 million in a full year. There is a reduction of €475 million in the social protection budget for 2012, or €811 million in a full year. It is cut, cut, cut.

Deputy Joan Burton

Where?

Deputy Jonathan O’Brien

There are cuts to the back-to-school allowance, child benefit-----

Chairman

It has been decided that we are sticking to one programme at a time and I do not want to deviate from that agenda. There would be no problem if the Deputy wanted to wait until the end.

Deputy Jonathan O’Brien

I am only making a counter-argument to the Minister's. I accept her sincerity in what she said about carers. Perhaps she might give them some reassurance. Will she commit that the half-rate carer's allowance will not be touched? There is anxiety.

Chairman

We are dealing with-----

Deputy Joan Burton

It was not cut. We are talking about what happened last year and what is happening this year. The allowance has not been cut. People at work are making great sacrifices in paying tax and PRSI. I know the Deputy would probably like them to pay much more in tax and PRSI, which is fair enough, but they are already paying considerable amounts. There are no cuts to either the full-rate or half-rate carer's allowance. The numbers being awarded the payment are actually increasing, as the Estimate shows.

Deputy Barry Cowen asked me about next year's budget. I am not in a position to say what next year's budget is likely to be. However, I have the full support of my colleagues in government on carer's allowance - whether full or half rate - not only on it being protected but also in recognising that we are making provision for increases in the numbers. The same applies to domiciliary care allowance. That is a feature of the Department of Social Protection. Because the schemes are based in law, somebody making an appropriate application within the terms of the law will be awarded the relevant allowance.

Chairman

I will have to move to the next programme which relates to expenditure on children and families. We are considerably behind in our schedule and have three programmes left to consider. I believe Deputy Jonathan O'Brien's question was fully answered.

Deputy Barry Cowen

I wish to pick up on what the Minister said. Of course, the Department's budget would make provision for an increase in numbers, just as in the national budget there is provision for the pay of doctors, nurses, gardaí and so forth. Many people who paid their taxes and PRSI never expected to be in receipt of benefits. They are not doing so by choice but rather out of necessity. We need to find ways and means to support and help them to find a way back into the workplace, as we discussed under some of the previous headings.

When talking about cuts, we need to consider their impact. The Government is trying to cling to the headline promise made during the general election campaign to maintain social welfare rates. In this area the back-to-school allowance has been cut; child benefit for the third and subsequent children has also been cut, while the transport allocation in rural areas has been cut by 50%. In rural areas the farm assist payment has been cut; there is no new REP scheme; while there have been cuts in rural schools, to the one-parent family payment and family income supplement. The Minister cannot blame people for forming the impression that rural families are being hit the hardest. Does she agree with some of the professional commentary that this year's budget was regressive rather than progressive? The cuts made in the Department, for example, hit the weakest much more than the strongest in society. That is the point being made to Deputies, especially those in rural areas. The cuts are affecting families, particularly large families. We discussed the position of lone parents earlier. Regardless of whether the Minister agrees, that is the impression being formed and it is very pointed and obvious.

Deputy Jonathan O’Brien

I echo Deputy Barry Cowen's comments. I wish to talk about one group not in receipt of child benefit. I refer to parents of children aged 18 years or over in full-time secondary education. The Minister needs to review the position of 17,000 parents of 18 year olds who do not receive child benefit. The majority of these young people are in sixth year and doing their leaving certificate examinations. There is great financial pressure on their parents. I am dealing with a man whose daughter has just turned 18 years and will do her leaving certificate examinations next year. His child benefit payment has been cut. He is a carer - he cares for his wife - and does not have a large income. His daughter will incur significant costs in sixth year. It costs €120 just to book the place and there are costs for photocopying, uniforms, etc. While he will qualify for the back-to-school allowance, it will not cover the costs involved. The Department should review the position of the small number of 17,000 who find themselves in this category.

Deputy Barry Cowen

My point is contained in a parliamentary question on payments to children living outside of the State which the Minister answered recently. The amount involved peaked in 2008, and the number of children in receipt and the amounts associated with them have reduced slightly over the past two years. What progress, if any, has the Minister made with her colleagues in Europe on highlighting the specific case relating to Ireland? The picture can be painted quite easily in comparison to other countries whereby despite how we have been tied into various agreements an exception can be made in this instance. I know the Minister has highlighted this, but what progress has been made with a view to lessening the huge burden of approximately €50 million the State must incur because of the system which prevails throughout Europe and our obligations?

Chairman

The Minister has three questions to answer.

Deputy Joan Burton

I will take the final question first. The child benefit payment in 2011 in respect of children living in other EU countries was €13.1 million. It was at a high of €20 million in 2008 and it has been reducing progressively. From a control point of view - we have had this discussion several times - we write to people to check they are at the address they have provided. The special investigations unit is doing an amount of this work and we are also using general control measures. This has identified some incorrect claims. I have raised the matter on a number of occasions with the Commissioner for Employment, Social Affairs and Inclusion and my EU ministerial counterparts. It is an issue not only for Ireland but for countries such as Denmark and the UK, and not only with regard to children but a number of other cross-border social welfare issues. We continue to examine this area very closely with a view to minimising the expenditure. The reduction to €13 million is a considerable improvement on the €15.4 million spent in 2010 and even more so on the €20.9 million which was the high point.

For the purpose of EU regulations Irish child benefit is classified as a family benefit and specific rules cover the payment of these benefits. EU nationals who come to work in Ireland but whose families reside in another EU member state may have an entitlement to family benefits in Ireland under EU regulations. As a member state of the European Union, Ireland is obliged to apply these regulations in accordance with the objective of the European communities treaty regarding free movement of persons. In conjunction with other countries we have asked for an impact analysis on such payments being made across the EU borders. We are in continuing dialogue with the Commission on issues such as this.

Deputy Barry Cowen

When does the Minister expect the dialogue to cease and the answers to begin?

Chairman

We had a full discussion on this with the Minister's officials last week. It might be useful to forward the presentation to the Deputy because it dealt with many of these issues.

Deputy Joan Burton

The standard age for ceasing child benefit is 18 years and this was introduced in 2009. I do not have the funds to extend any schemes at present but I share concerns with regard to the type of case described by the Deputy. With regard to savings on the back to school clothing and footwear allowance, it was being paid to children aged between two and four years who were not in school. In the context of the very tight budget I must operate it was difficult to justify its continuation.

With regard to maintaining and targeting payments, in 2011 the Department's total expenditure on school meals was just under €35 million and next year it will spend the same amount. The issue is to try to target payments at children who particularly need them, either at home with their parents or in school, through direct payment initiatives such as the school meals payment. In my constituency, and cities such as Dublin and Limerick, the breakfast clubs are very important for children in terms of being a social space and because the day starts with a reasonably nourishing breakfast.

Chairman

We will move on to the next section.

Deputy Barry Cowen

The rent supplement reduction reflects the market and I acknowledge this. However, I am conscious of the differences that may exist between various regions. In a reply to a question in the Dáil, the Minister mentioned she is examining this and the ways and means in which further savings can be made. The 20% reduction in the number of mortgage interest supplement recipients is a reflection on the budget. Obviously we do not agree with it and we do not countenance it. Information should be forthcoming at the next meeting on the number of applicants and the gap that exists between successful and unsuccessful applicants.

The household benefits package deals with electricity and gas allowances, those aged over 70 and those in the greatest need of these services. What progress, if any, has been made subsequent to the many questions put to the Minister on discounts from suppliers in this regard? We continue to be their biggest customer and it is a real saving that could be very effective on the basis of continuous payment and an aging population, as the Minister acknowledged earlier. If it is a benefit for those aged over 70 the cost to the State will increase. However, this is not to state we should not continue it as we most definitely should but there should be a greater onus on the suppliers to put in place a greater discount scheme.

Deputy Sandra McLellan

Cutting the fuel allowance adds a cost of approximately €120 for a family. Will the Minister reconsider this and cover the cost in the Estimates?

Deputy Brendan Ryan

Supplementary welfare allowance is a wonderful safeguard and safety net for people awaiting decision on a social welfare payment or on an appeal. An issue is raised with regard to where the refusal of a social welfare payment based on the habitual residence condition also applies to supplementary welfare allowance. As I understand it, supplementary welfare allowance is not payable where refusal is based on the habitual residence condition. An applicant may have nowhere to go while awaiting the result of an appeal and this causes continuous hardship, particularly because of the length of the wait. If I am correct, will the Minister consider fast-tracking appeals where a decision is based on the habitual residence condition?

Deputy Joan Burton

Deputy Cowen referred to the rent supplement. I explained this issue previously. The Department pays rent supplement in respect of approximately 40% of the private rental market. We are all aware of the catastrophic fall in house values, yet this has not been reflected in a corresponding fall in rents. I am concerned the Department of Social Protection is driving rents upwards for the 60% of people who pay their own rent. Many renters are young and employed who are usually not earning large amounts, or they are students who pay for their accommodation if their parents do not.

When community welfare officers joined my Department, we conducted a survey of rent allowances. In some counties, the Department was paying 105% or 106% of the market rent. There is very little justification for the Department paying more than the market rent. It is important we try to achieve savings in this scheme. The details are being worked out by the community welfare service and individual tenants. Our rent supplement relationship is with the tenant, not the landlord.

A detailed group from my Department and the Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government is working on the question of how to transfer the rent supplement scheme to the latter Department. In 2011, we gave private landlords more than €500 million. That figure will reduce somewhat in 2012 to an estimated €436 million, but we need to make further savings.

Having examined a number of reports published by organisations that deal with people in mortgage distress, we have introduced a new arrangement in respect of mortgage interest supplement. In many cases, we have been paying some or all of the interest on people's mortgages, but this does not lead to a resolution for the mortgage holder. The issue is wider than that and relates to the personal insolvency legislation being introduced by my colleague, the Minister for Justice and Equality. Where we intervene to help someone with a mortgage, I am anxious to know that this is reflected in recognition on the part of the client's financial institution that the taxpayer is paying the mortgage interest. I hope the personal insolvency legislation will be before the Dáil in the near future. A Cabinet sub-committee meets on this issue frequently and goes into great detail. Where we spend money to assist people in mortgage difficulty, we must get the best possible assistance for the individual or family and keep people in their homes. In recognition of the taxpayers' contribution to these mortgages, financial institutions should consider better ways of reaching a resolution for the individual. The money advice and budgeting service, MABS, receives significant funding from my Department via the Citizens Information Board to help individuals.

Household budgeting and the fuel allowance have been mentioned. I have considered the approach in the North. Under successive Governments, its fuel allowance rate has been far less than the Republic's. This is a fact. The number of weeks in respect of which the allowance in the Republic was granted expanded significantly, especially during those years when the Celtic tiger was strong. We have tightened the framework. In the North, the fuel allowance is paid for a limited period to very poor households or the elderly and depends on decreases in temperature, etc. I have viewed Sinn Féin's Northern website. The party seems to have no difficulty with a significantly less generous system in the North than the one that applies in the South. We have tried to maintain the fuel payment for a significant part of the year, including the coldest months.

Deputy Sandra McLellan

It was only 2° Celsius last week, yet people were not given the fuel allowance.

Deputy Joan Burton

I do not know whether the Deputy discusses with people in Belfast the question of what her party does in the Administration in the North. Does she ever have a conversation with them? In fairness to previous Administrations in the Republic as well as the current one, the scheme Deputy McLellan's party administers is incredibly less generous.

Deputy Barry Cowen

The Minister for Arts, Heritage and the Gaeltacht, Deputy Deenihan, has increased the price of turf through his actions. Take those aeroplanes down.

Deputy Joan Burton

Sinn Féin seems to have one approach north of the Border, where it presides over cuts amounting to €5 billion, and another approach south of the Border. Deputy McLellan should explain the logical connection between these two positions.

Deputy Sandra McLellan

The Minister should compare like with like.

Deputy Joan Burton

The cuts in the Six Counties amount to €5 billion. Proportionately, this is far greater than the Republic's cuts of recent years. Look at the facts.

Regarding the supplementary welfare allowance, SWA, and the habitual residence condition, is it the case that Deputy Ryan believes people entering the country should have easier access to welfare payments? There are qualifying tests. Since entering into government, we have revised the arrangements. In particular, we have worked with organisations in the UK that deal with, for example, Irish people who are returning to Ireland.

I would defend the need for a test for new arrivals who are seeking social welfare benefits. It is important the Department would examine their entitlement to payments. Our budget is restricted and people are contributing a great deal of money in tax and PRSI. The budget is stretched and we must apply fairly strict tests. However, we have endeavoured to work with Irish organisations abroad where people are returning to, for example, their original domiciles in Ireland. In this regard, the system is working better than it was a year or more ago when I took up office. If the Deputy has particular cases in mind, perhaps he might bring them to my attention.

Deputy Brendan Ryan

The problem is not the test, as having one is appropriate. Where there is a refusal solely on the basis of the habitual residence condition and a person wishes to appeal, he or she must join the waiting list. If someone is refused for a different reason, he or she can receive the SWA while waiting. A particular hardship is imposed by a refusal based on the habitual residence parameter. I merely ask that, after today, the Minister might consider the possibility of fast-tracking appeals made solely on the basis of habitual residence.

Deputy Joan Burton

Since taking up office, I have looked at this area and talked to organisations representing Irish people abroad, most of them in the United Kingdom, who might at some stage come home to Ireland, perhaps to be carers for parents who are ill. In those cases, the system is working much better. Exceptional needs payments can be made where the person has no resources and is waiting for the result of an appeal. Is the Deputy talking about social welfare applicants who have come into the country and who may not have any connection to Ireland, or about Irish people returning?

Deputy Brendan Ryan

I am also talking about people coming home.

Deputy Joan Burton

Is the Deputy talking about people coming from abroad to claim social welfare here?

Deputy Brendan Ryan

The requirement applies to both categories.

Deputy Joan Burton

We are required to apply the test. If the Deputy gives me some specific examples I will investigate them. We have done some work in the past year, particularly with representative organisations, on the question of Irish people returning to their original domicile. That element is working out much better.

The habitual residence test is there to deal with people coming from other countries and who have no connection to Ireland. Our social welfare system would not be capable of paying huge numbers of people who come from abroad to claim social welfare in Ireland. The normal reason for people who have no connection with Ireland to travel within the European Union is for work rather than for social welfare.

Chairman

The social welfare fund was covered quite well earlier. Deputy Cowen, do you have a further question?

Deputy Barry Cowen

Does the subvention figure for the social welfare fund reflect what the Minister had expected?

Deputy Joan Burton

Is that a backhanded way of asking if I would have liked more? Both Houses should look at the actuarial study when it is published. The social welfare system is critical for stimulus, but it must be funded on a proper basis. That has been my view for a long time.

This year is the 70th anniversary of the Beveridge report, which led to the establishment of the welfare state in the United Kingdom. If we want the kind of social welfare system to which, I think, all parties aspire, we must fund it in a way that puts and keeps it on a sustainable footing. I will hold my fire until I see the actuarial report. More people are living longer, thankfully, and we have more children in the population. We must factor in the funding of pensions at a level we all feel is desirable. How do we do that in the future? I hope to have a detailed discussion with the Deputies when I see the report.

Deputy Barry Cowen

I thank the Minister and her officials for her replies and for the detail with which she answered our questions. I acknowledge what you said, Chairman, and what the Minister has said, which is that she will provide more detailed analysis of figures for applicants, the success or otherwise of applications and appeals of decisions made by departmental officials.

We must agree to differ on the Government's strategy for making savings within the Minister's Department. I believe most of the savings target vulnerable sectors rather than being made across the board, which might have been more progressive and fairer. In its first year of office, the Government has taken €3 billion out of the public sector spend. While the Government may take credit for having stabilised the economy, much of the heavy lifting was done before it came to office, when €20 billion was taken out of the economy. If nothing else, the referendum debate has highlighted the need to augment growth further by a programme of investment, once the stability treaty is ratified and a system to stabilise the eurozone is in place. That programme could be in the form of project bonds. There are many shovel-ready projects in all our constituencies which we could supply for adjudication and which would provide stimulus of that nature. That has to be the emphasis of the Government post stabilisation.

While we accept the treaty must be passed, we do not think it is the entire answer. It is a foundation on which progress can be made. It is incumbent on the Minister and her colleagues to bring forward the sort of investment the economy needs. The Minister's Department, in conjunction with the Department of Education and Skills, must target investment in the youth sector, which must take precedence. Possibly 50% of the available workforce between the ages of 18 and 25 has been lost to the economy, which is a huge loss. That sector played a huge role in economic development in the past. The benefit of the social protection system was provided by their tax and PRSI contributions in previous years.

I acknowledge that the departmental social welfare spend is up, but that is only because the Minister has a constitutional obligation to pay those who are entitled to social welfare benefits. Proper scrutiny and value for money analysis cannot be complete without a better descriptive analysis of applications and appeals. A review will, I hope, rectify the discrepancy in the domiciliary care allowance that was highlighted last week.

I acknowledge what the Minister said about the forthcoming actuarial analysis. That will paint a clearer picture for all us, and particularly for the Minister as she pursues her budgetary policy in the next number of years when she will continue to be under pressure to close the gap between expenditure and income. I acknowledge that pressure but I ask her to change tack by being fairer and more progressive. Independent studies, by the ESRI and others, indicate previous budgets, no matter how stern they were, brought stabilisation. Those budgets were very stern and, as I have said on many occasions, my party suffered electorally because of decisions which had to be taken. By continuing the thrust of that policy, the Minister acknowledges it has brought some form of stabilisation. However, that policy is not best served by targeting vulnerable sectors and it might be more productive to make across the board savings.

Deputy Sandra McLellan

I thank the Minister for her contribution. I accept she does not have an easy job. I have been deputising for Deputy Ó Snodaigh for the second half of the meeting because he is unable to be here. I have made some notes and I will bring points to him for discussion.

Deputy Joan Burton

I thank Deputies for their contribution. We will be having further detailed discussions when the report is published at the end of June or early in July.

I think I am responsible for introducing the term "shovel-ready" to the Dáil. It is a phrase President Obama used during his election campaign and I was taken with it.

I refer to the discussions that will be taking place at European level tomorrow night. For example, in the education area there is a series of projects. My colleague, the Minister for Education and Skills, has done very well to have much capital spending on new schools. In my constituency and, I am sure, in the Deputies' constituencies, there are much older school buildings, and if there was a greater flow of capital investment, we could replace those and get people back to work. The critical issue, as I mentioned earlier, is to ensure that we get people back to work, and this may come about if we succeed in getting greater investment flow, for example, through the European Investment Bank. The Government has sought this over the past six or seven months. We should also ensure that the jobs which develop as a consequence go to people on the local unemployment registers and who attend the local social welfare offices. We must do that job and it is important for the Department to concentrate on it.

Much of the spend in the Department is about social investment. It is quite important to acknowledge that it is an important stimulus, and I hope to continue to get the support of my colleagues in recognising that. I thank the sub-committee members for their courtesy, comments and questions.

Chairman

I thank the Minister and her officials for coming here today. It was a useful exercise to prepare us for next year's budget. We have had some good opinions and they should help in making decisions in July and afterwards. I thank Deputies Cowen and McLellan. I believe Deputy Ó Snodaigh is climbing Mount Kilimanjaro and there are communication facilities there, so he is probably watching us on the web.