Select Committee on Justice díospóireacht -
Tuesday, 28 Nov 2023

Vote 24 - Justice (Supplementary)

An Cathaoirleach Gníomhach (Deputy Niamh Smyth)

The business of the committee is the Supplementary Estimates for Votes 20 to 22, inclusive, and Vote 24. I thank the Minister of State, Deputy James Browne, and the officials from the Department for their attendance and the provision of information related to the Estimates. I propose that the Minister of State give a brief opening statement and I will then invite members to contribute. We will consider each Vote in order and each subhead, which make up the Supplementary Estimates, individually. Is that agreed? Agreed.

In accordance with Standing Orders, the discussion must be confined to items constituting the Supplementary Estimates. I remind members of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside of the Houses or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. I invite the Minister of Stage to make his opening statement.

Minister of State at the Department of Justice (Deputy James Browne)

I thank members for making time available to consider the Supplementary Estimates for the Garda and prisons Votes and technical Supplementary Estimates for the courts and justice Votes. I am joined by the following officials from my Department, Ms Yvonne Furey, assistant secretary, and Mr. Aonghus O'Connor, principal officer.

I start by saying how disturbed and shocked I was by the horrendous attack that took place on Thursday outside Gaelscoil Coláiste Mhuire. My thoughts are with all of the victims and their families, in particular the young child and her carer who intervened so bravely. They remain, unfortunately, in a critical condition. I know members wish all of them a full recovery, with the support of the dedicated health workers who are looking after them. It was truly a shocking and very distressing event. I commend emergency workers for their swift response and continued care and treatment of the victims of this horrific attack.

There is no excuse, however, for the horrific scenes of violence that subsequently took place in Dublin city centre on Thursday evening. There is no justification for the sickening behaviour of a minority who set out to cause chaos, violence and destruction of property. I commend Garda members and members of the emergency services who stood up so bravely last Thursday and since. I share with the Minister and the Garda Commissioner an absolute determination that those who contributed to and instigated Thursday night's events will continue to be arrested and brought to justice.

Regarding Vote 20 – Garda, budget 2023 reflects the commitment of the Government to ensure our communities are safe and that An Garda Síochána has the resources, tools and technology required to operate effectively. The budget provided by the Government to the Garda Commissioner continues to increase to unprecedented levels, with an allocation of over €2 billion for 2023. A net Supplementary Estimate requirement of a €48.5 million allocation arises in respect of the Garda Vote this year, equating to a 2.3% increase on the 2023 Estimate. This Supplementary Estimate comprises a gross expenditure requirement of €74.7 million, which is offset by a projected surplus in appropriations-in-aid receipts of €26.2 million, giving an additional requirement of almost €48.5 million for the Garda Vote.

Regarding the Irish Prison Service, a net Supplementary Estimate of €18.7 million was required in 2023 in respect of the prisons Vote. This comprises a gross expenditure requirement of €20.3 million, which is offset by a projected surplus in appropriations-in-aid of €1.5 million, giving a net additional requirement of just under €80.7 million for the present Vote. The additional requirement mainly arises due to the impact of additional prisoner numbers and the cost of prison services. In total, it is expected that there will be an overrun on the payroll subhead of approximately €10.9 million. This is mainly due to additional hours related to cover staffing pressures linked to the increase in prisoner numbers, escort requirements to courts and hospitals, etc. Finally, the Government earlier this year approved the drafting of a Bill to establish the Irish Prison Service as a fully fledged State body with a non-executive board and other best practice governance and support structures.

A technical Supplementary Estimate of €1,000 is required in respect of the courts Vote. There is no additional funding requirement for the Vote. The technical Supplementary Estimate is due to the additional costs of the pay subhead of approximately €1.2 million and pressures on other subheads due to inflationary costs and increased court sittings. These costs are offset by an underspend in other subheads and a relatively small surplus in court fee income of approximately €2 million. It will also be necessary to carry forward unspent capital of €1 million, mainly the courthouse capital works, to facilitate the completion of certain capital projects in 2024.

In respect of Vote 24 - justice, a technical Supplementary Estimate of €1,000 is required.

No additional funding is required for the Vote. The technical Supplementary Estimate is required to utilise surplus receipts to offset additional costs in the gross part of the Vote. This relates to the cost of overspends in demand-led areas, such as criminal legal aid schemes, which cost in the region of €22 million. There are offsetting underspends in a number of other subheads with the largest element of the offset relating to the surplus immigration and visa fees to the value of approximately €23.1 million. The surplus has arisen due to the large increase in registration applications.

I commend these Supplementary Estimates to the committee. I am happy to address any questions committee members may have.

An Cathaoirleach Gníomhach (Deputy Niamh Smyth)

I thank the Minister of State and appreciate the comments he made at the beginning of his opening statement, with which we would all concur. We are thinking of the families who have been affected by the terrible events of Thursday.

I will move now to my colleagues, who may have some questions. We will go section by section, if that is okay. Vote 20 relates to the Garda. Are there any questions, observations or comments on the Supplementary Estimate for the 2023 Garda Vote?

Deputy Patrick Costello

In respect of the Garda Vote, the Minister of State has made reference to the supplementary funding being principally driven, among other things, by the €10 million funding for Garda overtime to increase high-visibility policing in the Dublin metropolitan region. While we will all support high-visibility policing, which is exactly what people are looking for, I have two questions. Is this sustainable? Is the €10 million required for overtime a product of having too few gardaí or that the rotas being operated are not able to ensure a sufficient number of gardaí on the street? Perhaps it is more likely to be an unfortunate combination of both those factors. We want high-visibility policing that is not funded by Garda overtime but is part of the general day-to-day business of the Garda. What are we doing to ensure the Garda is able to provide that?

My second point relates to preventative policing. Much of the rioting and disorder we saw on the streets could have been prevented by proper policing of violent elements who are intent on causing harm. While there have been positive developments and supports provided through the youth justice programme, the community policing sector is crying out for extra resources. Many of the resources in that sector have been pulled into this high-visibility policing when we really need both. Is this funding sustainable? What are we doing to address the underlying issues to ensure we do not have to come back this time next year for yet another Supplementary Estimate for overtime?

Deputy James Browne

I thank the Deputy. It is certainly acknowledged that we need more members of the Garda. That is why a significant recruitment campaign is ongoing. There has been a significant increase in the number of prospective gardaí going through training in the Garda College in Templemore. There will be further funding for more gardaí next year so we can increase their visibility and have more gardaí is each of the communities across the country, including Dublin city, so there will be less of a need for overtime. Those gardaí will be part of the rank and file and will be available.

There has also been an increase in the civilianisation of the Garda. Close to 900 members of the Garda have been released from administrative duties and assigned to front-line duties as we have hired more staff to carry out those administrative duties and, as I say, free up gardaí.

There is a clear and willing acknowledgement that we need more gardaí. They are being recruited and trained. They are being released to Garda stations across the country. However, it will take more time to get gardaí out there. The intention is that once we have those gardaí in stations, there will be less reliance on overtime.

The Deputy rightly points out there has been increased funding for the youth justice programme. In September, we launched our plan for restorative justice. That is an important piece for prevention. Rather than taking a simplistic approach to people in the community who have been committing crimes, the restorative piece works to centre the victims and to help the offenders see the consequences of their offending and allow them to address it. The restorative piece also involves working with the communities. There are three points to that triangle and they are important. We are trying to address the victims, the communities and the offenders.

This week, we are starting our first workshops for 18- to 24-year-olds to see what elements of youth diversion projects can be extended to people in that age bracket and how it would work in practice. We know there is an exceptionally high rate of reoffending among that age category. An element of that relates to the fact that people age out from the youth diversion projects and youth supports. We want to see what elements are available for people who want to address their offending. We want to provide alternative supports for them.

To provide high-visibility policing, more gardaí are required and we recognise that. We are in the recruitment and training phase and there should be less of a reliance on overtime once those gardaí are in situ.

Deputy Pa Daly

The Department is going to launch a recruitment campaign for the Garda Reserve. When is that going to start? I have spoken to business owners and those in the higher echelons of the Garda. Those senior members have told me they want to recruit and that there is a need for a Garda presence in the north inner city of Dublin, in particular. They have not been able to provide that presence. The recruitment campaign has been promised for months. I know the regulations have left the Department and are with stakeholders. When is the recruitment campaign going to commence? When does the Minister of State expect those reservists to be taking their places where they are so badly needed?

Deputy James Browne

The new recruitment campaign for the Garda Reserve will commence at Easter 2024. Unfortunately, we had to pause recruitment for the Garda during the period of the Covid-19 pandemic. The priority last year was to get the recruitment campaign for new members of the Garda up and running and to create momentum behind that campaign. While we will continue with recruitment for the Garda next year, recruitment for the Garda Reserve will commence as well.

Deputy Pa Daly

When was the Garda Reserve most recently able to recruit? When was its most recent intake?

Deputy James Browne

The most recent intake was in 2017.

Deputy Pa Daly

It is understandable that people in the communities of the north inner city are frustrated at the level of the Garda Reserve and that the level of its presence on street corners is so low. The Minister of State will understand that frustration.

Deputy James Browne

Garda reservists have a hugely important role to play. I look forward to the beginning of that recruitment campaign. We will see a significant increase in the numbers of the Garda Reserve. A timely review was needed and has been carried out in respect of how the whole reserve system was working. The Garda Commissioner carried out that review and we are now in a position to commence recruitment.

Deputy Pa Daly

Would the Minister of State accept that at the very least, the pace of the review, the production of the regulations and recruitment have meant the process not been as speedy as it might have been?

Deputy James Browne

It was a full review of the entire reserve system, which was important to establish the entire strategy for the foreseeable future. That review was published in October 2021. As I said, the priority for 2022 and 2023 was, first and foremost, to recruit for the Garda before moving to address the Garda Reserve situation. Next year will see a significant increase in the numbers of gardaí who are going through training and attesting. The reserve force will also increase in number.

Deputy Pa Daly

The Minister of State mentioned there was a pause in recruitment during the pandemic. This committee visited the Garda College in Templemore last week. I must say, I was very impressed by the level of professionalism in the college. Ethical and human rights priorities are interwoven into every aspect of the training. Some of the people there were keen to impress on us that the Garda College never closed. That is what they told us. There may have been a hybrid training model but the college kept going. Will the Minister of State comment? That seems to contradict the message that has come from the Government.

An Cathaoirleach Gníomhach (Deputy Niamh Smyth)

I am new to the job and I ask members to bear with me, but I am told that we strictly have to keep to the Supplementary Estimate. I know the Deputy may want to get into more detail around various issues. We are going to meet with the Commissioner tomorrow. I am not saying the Minister of State cannot answer, but I am asking the Deputy to keep his questions related to the Estimates.

Deputy James Browne

The college was closed to new recruits during the Covid period. That would have been in line with health advice as a lot of very difficult decisions were made during that Covid period.

Deputy Pa Daly

But the college itself did not close. That is correct, is it not?

Deputy James Browne

It closed to new recruits.

Deputy Pa Daly

The Minister of State said there were lower levels of recruitment than expected in 2023. At what stage of the year was it realised that the target of 1,000 additional members was not going to be met? We had a stream of senior Ministers come into the Dáil to say that there was going to be 1,000, even up to July. The numbers did not seem to stack up, to me. There was a saving in funding. At what stage did the Government realise that there would not be 1,000 additional members going through Templemore?

Deputy James Browne

I cannot attest to the knowledge of another individual. What I can say, in relation to recruitment, is that 135 trainees entered the training college in February, 154 entered in May, 174 entered in July and another 177 entered the college in October, the largest intake since Covid. Another class is due to enter Templemore on 27 December, which will put us on track to have between 700 and 800 recruits into the college this year. As the Deputy can understand, any recruitment process is a dynamic process. I cannot attest to the knowledge of others.

Deputy Pa Daly

I have one final question. I want to be associated with the Minister of State's comments on the bravery of Garda members, the emergency services and, indeed, all those who were injured and also who assisted those who were injured last week. Does the Minister of State accept that there was a loss of control of Dublin in-----

An Cathaoirleach Gníomhach (Deputy Niamh Smyth)

Deputy, you really are straying away from the Estimates now. The Commissioner will be in tomorrow. I appeal to the Deputy to allow us to deal with the Estimates, as it is on the agenda for today if that is okay.

We will move on to Vote 21 - Prisons - of the Supplementary Estimates for 2023. Do colleagues have any questions or observations?

Deputy Patrick Costello

The Minister of State talked, in his opening statement, about additional prison numbers. There has been some criticism of the growing number of short sentences, and how these do not really impact in terms of recidivism and can cause more problems in their own right. Surely, instead of trying to drive more budget into the prisons, what we should be doing is trying to find ways of reducing sentences, reducing people going into prison and reducing the short sentences, which are particularly problematic. How much is being spent on other options there?

Second, there are issues in relation to prisoners not being able to get access to educational opportunities in prison because prison officers are not available to bring them to and from these educational opportunities. Is the budget that the Government is putting into this Supplementary Estimate sufficient to enable all prisoners to engage in educational opportunities? Surely, if there are challenges with getting prisoners out of their cells, we should be copying other countries, which provide in-cell technology so prisoners who are in their cells can access educational opportunities that way. It is a very standard thing in many other countries.

In terms of prison staff, does the budget cover addiction counsellors? I have raised with the Minister issues in relation to the dwindling numbers of addiction counsellors within prison services. Given the criminogenic influence of addiction, surely one of the most rehabilitative and preventative things we can do is to provide addiction treatment.

Finally, for my own clarity, does this budget cover probation officers? We have a dwindling number of probation officers. Probation officer numbers are either falling or static, at a time when our population and prison population are growing. The caseload ratio of probation officers is much bigger, and it is causing problems in terms of their ability to engage with prisoners and their ability to do that preventative and pre-release work, all of which is about reducing recidivism. When we add that back to the first point where I started with the short sentences, we are then looking at a situation where prison is not the rehabilitative thing that we want it to be. It is not reducing recidivism; it is simply becoming criminogenic in its own right. Can we address the issue of short sentences? Are we providing budget for alternatives to prison? Can we find other ways to support educational opportunities, are we funding addiction counsellors and what are we doing about probation officers in these Estimates?

Deputy James Browne

I certainly see a greater role for probation services, and the restorative justice elements will be a huge part of that over the coming years. I have looked at and commented on the Cornmarket Project in Wexford. There is also a project in Athy. There seem to be a number of pilot projects around restorative justice that were started back in the 1990s that perhaps were not expanded. Maybe there was not that focus on it afterwards, but it is certainly something we will see into the future.

In relation to short sentences, obviously sentences are a matter for our courts. I certainly acknowledge that to benefit from the rehabilitative services that are available in prisons, you probably have to spend at least 12 months there. It is certainly not a reason for people to spend longer in prison, but there is a challenge around short sentence in terms of people being there long enough to benefit from the services that can be made available.

The Minister, Deputy Harris, and I have established a higher education task force to look at our prisons and how we can make education available to everybody in there. That incudes looking at access to computers and that type of technology. It is something that the head of the Prison Service is very strong on. We are trying to figure out how that will look to ensure that people can have access to that information, but also that it will not be misused if they have access to the Internet or whatever, in terms of being able to contact victims. With the higher education task force, we have moved to a position whereby it is a problem that can be solved, as opposed to a reason not do to it in that respect. The task force will also look at how we ensure that people who start training or education courses in prison can seamlessly continue them when they leave. That seems to have been a major problem in our prisons for people who want to and do participate in programmes in prison but who are released before their course is finished. They do not have their certificate and have not finished the course. It is something we are very much looking at and we are coming up with solutions. Once the work of that task force is published, it will certainly provide a pathway to a lot of solutions to many of those issues, including identifying those within our prisons who have learning difficulties. As the Deputy is aware, undiagnosed learning difficulties are very common among our prisoner population. There is also the mental health task force that was set up by the Minister, Deputy McEntee. That continues to be rolled out.

Probation officers are covered under the Justice Vote. We are satisfied that there was a successful recruitment of probation officer assistants in 2023, which will help matters. However, there is no question that as in all areas, recruitment has proven to be quite challenging. It is challenging in every aspect of the public service at the moment, and it continues to be a challenge. That is not a reason not to continue to develop and roll out an expansionary role for our probation services in relation to that. Some €2 million has been made available in 2024, including an engagement with IPS services and Merchant Quay as well. As I have said, with the new restorative justice plan that we have made, I see an increased role for our probation services in the coming years.

An Cathaoirleach Gníomhach (Deputy Niamh Smyth)

That concludes that piece. We are now moving on to Vote 22 - Courts Services - of the Supplementary Estimates for 2023. Does Deputy Costello have any questions, observations or comments?

Deputy Patrick Costello

In relation the Courts Service, I note there is a carryover for capital expenditure. We have spent a lot of time in this committee talking about courthouses and the need to invest in them.

I have been asking that since I got in here in 2020. It is a giant hole in the ground that should be a family court. I have spent a lot of time talking about family courts and their importance. To put it simply, when is the courthouse at Hammond Lane going to be built? When will building even start?

There is reference to increased court sittings in the Minister of State's opening statement. I would hope that is driven by the increased number of judges the Government has appointed. I welcome the increase in the number of judges. We absolutely need more. As we are appointing more judges, are we appointing a sufficient number of registrars? Obviously, a judge cannot sit without a registrar and orders cannot be perfected. The work of the court simply cannot be done without a registrar. Much of this work could be streamlined and registrars' lives made much easier if there was a roll-out of certain IT services, such as digital filing, through the central office. As with the in-cell technology, the computers for education, if we look at other jurisdictions, we see that we do not need to reinvent the wheel. Other countries, including other common law countries, are doing this very well. All filings can be done remotely by digital means, streamlining the system. There are several advantages to this. It makes life easier for the barristers, the solicitors and the registrars but it also makes life easier for the rest of us because court papers, which should be public because justice should be seen to be administered in public, can be accessed much more easily and quickly by everybody. That is a really important element to this.

What are we doing to modernise? Senator McDowell has been on his feet in the Seanad venting his frustrations in respect of the central office with regard to its opening hours and the fact that the restrictive measures it brought in during the Covid pandemic are still in place, which hampers the work of many barristers in the courts. Again, a technology roll-out could be a significant help. Given that we are talking about the Estimates, is there sufficient funding in the Estimates or in the budget for this year or next year to ensure a proper roll-out of technology for the central office?

Deputy James Browne

With regard to Hammond Lane, I have practised family law and know that family courts are absolutely essential. The most recent update is that the current timescale envisages project delivery during the latter part of the national development plan. That is as specific as I can be.

An Cathaoirleach Gníomhach (Deputy Niamh Smyth)

We move to the 2023 Supplementary Estimate for Vote 24 - Justice. Does Deputy Costello have any questions, thoughts or observations?

Deputy Patrick Costello

Yes. There were cost overspends in demand-led areas such as the criminal legal aid scheme. I will put on record that the criminal legal aid scheme is an essential part of a functioning legal system. I could not disagree more strongly with Deputies who have spoken in the Chamber about how we should be cutting off criminal legal aid for people we might term "repeat customers". That would do a great disservice to our justice system and to our democracy. I note that this relates to the criminal legal aid scheme. Will the Minister of State provide us with an update on the civil legal aid scheme, which is absolutely due for overhaul and expansion? If the Minister of State would like to take it up, I have a Private Member's Bill that does exactly that. I ask about expansion of the civil legal aid scheme, which is long overdue.

Deputy James Browne

I can get the Deputy a note on the civil legal aid scheme. It is being reformed but I do not have a note to hand because it is not directly affected by this. However, I do agree with the Deputy that we have constitutional duties in respect of criminal legal aid and providing people with justice and the best defence possible. The very nature of a common law system is that people have equality of arms going into a court.

Deputy Patrick Costello

I have another thing to say on that issue. I know there have already been some reforms with regard to the fees for barristers. We need to highlight that issue again because, if we are talking about equality of arms, we need to ensure there is a sufficient number of barristers practising in the legal aid system. The Council of the Bar in Ireland has been very clear on barristers' requests and the Department of Justice has been very supportive of those reasonable requests. It is other Departments that we should be questioning but it is important to underline that, if we are looking for an effective legal system, we need to ensure there are sufficient numbers of barristers practising and that they are being paid sufficiently. While there have been some initial reforms and agreements, I hope they can continue into the future.

An Cathaoirleach Gníomhach (Deputy Niamh Smyth)

I will move onto programme B, the civil justice pillar. Does Deputy Costello have any comments, observations or thoughts?

Deputy Patrick Costello

My questions and thoughts on the civil justice pillar have been made clear in my contribution on the reform of civil legal aid. I do not need to say any more in that regard.