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SELECT COMMITTEE ON JUSTICE, EQUALITY, DEFENCE AND WOMEN’S RIGHTS díospóireacht -
Tuesday, 2 Dec 2003

Vol. 1 No. 25

Estimates for Public Services 2003.

Vote 19 - Office of the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform (Supplementary).

Vote 20 - Garda Síochána (Supplementary).

Vote 22 - Courts Service (Supplementary).

I welcome the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform, Deputy McDowell, and his officials. We are considering the Supplementary Estimates for 2003 of the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform - Votes 19, 20 and 22. A brief note providing details of the Supplementary Estimates has been circulated to members.

Approval is sought for a technical Supplementary Estimate of €1,000 on the Vote of the Office of the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform to transfer additional funds generated by the office through appropriations-in-aid for use in the operation of the office. Approval is sought for a similar Supplementary Estimate of €1,000 on the Garda Síochána Vote to transfer additional funds generated by the Garda Síochána through appropriations-in-aid for use in the operation of the force. Approval is also sought for a technical Supplementary Estimate of €1,000 to transfer additional funds generated by the Courts Service through appropriations-in-aid for use in the operation of the service. Other than seeking approval for a token amount of €1,000 in respect of the three Votes in question, which is a technical accounting matter, no additional funding is being sought. In effect, approval is being sought to transfer surplus appropriations-in-aid to subheads.

We want to deal with this matter as expeditiously as possible. I would remind members that they are only considering the Supplementary Estimate. They may discuss issues relevant to the individual subheads. They may not recommend increases or decreases in the Supplementary Estimates. I call on the Minister to address the committee.

Members of the committee will be aware, from the briefing material to which you referred, Chairman, that the purpose of this meeting is to move a technical Supplementary Estimate to cover additional expenditure incurred this year by the Garda Síochána, the Courts Service and certain services administered and paid for through the Vote of the Office of the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform.

I will return in a few moments to the specific details in each of the three Votes in question, but first I want to emphasise that the business we are about today is in respect of a technical Supplementary Estimate. Unlike in other years and, I believe, in each of the past seven years, I am not seeking additional funding by way of a Supplementary Estimate other than a token €1,000 as a technical device for any of the Votes in the justice sector. I am, however, seeking the approval of the Dáil to use additional appropriations-in-aid to what was budgeted for and to use underspends on some other subheads to off-set additional expenditure items on the justice, Garda and Courts Service Votes.

The net effect of my proposal is that the additional expenditure is being met from within the Vote group financial envelope decided upon this time last year without recourse to an injection of external funding, which could only be achieved by the diversion of funding from some other area of the public service or by utilising revenue generated elsewhere in the public service. My proposal before the committee today to use surplus appropriations-in-aid as well as subhead underspends to fund expenditure shortfalls to cover certain items is entirely in keeping with what I believe is prudent financial management and the maintenance of a tight rein on public expenditure in all areas of the public service.

The response of the justice sector to that new financial reality has been in keeping with that throughout the rest of the public service. Quite clearly, the 20% year-on-year increase in public spending was unsustainable in any timeframe and the fact that the Government has succeeded in pegging increases in public spending at a more viable level has enabled us to put in place the building blocks for sustainable long-term economic growth and activity.

The measures put in place at the beginning of the year in my Department to closely monitor expenditure and expenditure patterns on a monthly basis have proven to be very effective, and I am grateful to all the officials who have participated in that. A significant element of this process is the involvement of heads of services such as the Garda Commissioner, the director general of the Prison Service and the chief executive officer of the Courts Service as well as top management of my own Department. While obviously each head of service was responsible for his own area, a broader approach which involved the management of expenditure on a monthly basis within the Vote group financial envelope was put in place by me back in January 2003. A key factor in this approach was maximum utilisation of the Department of Finance agreement that surplus appropriations-in-aid could, within limits, be used to fund shortfalls in spending subheads.

I turn now to the Votes and I will begin with that of the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform. At the outset, I am seeking approval for a token Supplementary Estimate of €1,000 to raise the overall Estimate of the Vote from €325.515 million to €325.516 million. Under subhead B of the Vote, I am seeking an additional €3.25 million. This subhead covers the costs of commissions and special inquiries and, in this case, the additional and unanticipated costs associated with the Donegal and Abbeylara tribunals, or the Morris and Barrtribunals as they are more colloquiallyknown.

On subhead C, criminal legal aid, I am seeking an additional €5 million to meet the full year anticipated cost of €35 million of providing this service. This is a demand driven item and the award of legal aid in criminal cases is entirely at the discretion of the courts. On subhead H, the Criminal Assets Bureau, I am seeking an additional €2.9 million to cover legal costs incurred by the bureau which may arise before the end of the year. On subhead I, the Independent Monitoring Commission, I am seeking a token €1,000 to enable me to open a new subhead to meet the costs of this new body in the forthcoming year. That is a purely technical measure to put this on the spreadsheet.

The commission arises out of the Good Friday Agreement and will monitor and report on the carrying out of the commitments relating to the ending of paramilitary activity and the programme for security normalisation in Northern Ireland as set out in the Joint Declaration between the two Governments. The Independent Monitoring Commission Bill 2003 is due to be considered in the Seanad later this week.

Finally, on the justice Vote I am seeking an additional €850,000 to make up a shortfall on subhead K, the grant-in-aid for the Legal Aid Board. This additional funding is required to make good a funding shortfall for the board which arose as a result of an accounting error. In addition to the funding provided in the Vote, the board also receives funding from contributions for the legal services it provides and can carry cash on hands forward from year to year. An error by the board in the carry forward to 2003 - an overstatement of the cash on hands - was not realised until commitments had been made. The provision of an additional €850,000 will rectify the position.

Taking the Vote as a whole, I am seeking an additional €12.001 million to be applied to the subheads as explained above. I am proposing that this additional sum be funded by the transfer of €4.4 million from subhead Z, appropriations-in-aid, that amount being the surplus appropriations. The remaining balance of €7.6 million will be met by lower than anticipated expenditure on other subheads in the Vote.

Turning to the Garda Vote, again I am seeking a Supplementary Estimate of €1,000 as a technical measure. On subhead A1, salaries etc., I am seeking approval to add €2 million to the amount provided for Garda overtime. This will bring the provision for the year to €53.516 million. In proposing this increase, I am making good my commitment after the collapse of the Keane trial in Limerick to make additional funding available to enable the Garda to mount targeted operations in the Limerick and Finglas areas in particular.

This money will enable the Garda to undertake an additional 55,000 hours overtime in November and December. On subhead A2, travel and subsistence, I am proposing that the original Estimate of €20.98 million be increased by €2.62 million. Expenditure in this heading is incurred by the Garda in the prevention, detection and investigation of crime and the additional expenditure arises as a result of increased operational activity by the force. On subheads A3, A4, A8 and D, which concern incidental expenses, posts and telecommunications, station services and transport, I am proposing an increase of €7,630 to cover additional expenditure on these areas.

On subhead G, superannuation, I am seeking to increase the provision by €7.81 million to bring the full year figure to €171.824 million. This additional provision is to meet the cost of a higher than anticipated rate of retirements in the force. Members of the Garda Síochána, as the committee knows, can retire with full pension benefits at 50 years of age once they have completed 30 years of approved service. Members at sergeant and garda rank must retire at 57, other ranks at 60. In 2003, there were 235 voluntary and 102 compulsory retirements. Notwithstanding the number of retirements, I am pleased to be able to state that the current strength of the force, at 12,000, stands at an all-time high.

Due to the cyclical nature of Garda numbers in terms of matching recruitment with retirements, it is likely that this number will fall back in the early stages of 2004. It is a bit like a saw edge. The figure goes up every time a new attestation is added and then slides down until the next attestation, but the underlying trend is upwards and we will be at 12,200 by the end of 2003. Monthly retirement figures have declined considerably in the latter half of 2003. Certain members may have deferred their retirement until 2004, when it will be more financially beneficial following the payment of benchmarking and pay awards due in January 2004. However, the underlying trend in force strength continues upwards. Attestations in April, July, September and November 2003 will see the maximum authorised strength of the force, at 12,200, being achieved in 2004.

On subheads H and I, witness expenses and compensation, I am proposing an additional €1.320 million to meet the full year costs of these demand-led items. Finally, on the Garda Vote, I am proposing an additional €200,000 on subhead J, the witness security programme, to meet an expected overrun of that amount on the operation of that programme. Taking the Vote as a whole, the total additional requirement is €21.58 million. I propose that this be met by transferring €9.92 million from subhead K, appropriations-in-aid, to the subheads in question. The balance of €11.659 million is being met by offsetting savings on other subheads in the Vote.

On the courts Vote, in addition to a token additional requirement of €1,000 for the Vote, I also seek an additional €1.320 million for subhead A1, salaries, to cover a shortfall in the provision for court staff salaries. I am also seeking an additional €460,000 to cover a shortfall of that amount in the provision for travel and subsistence for Courts Service staff and members of the Judiciary. Finally, on the courts Vote, I propose an additional €2.54 million for subhead A6, office premises expenses. The expenditure here relates to operating and utility costs such as courthouse maintenance, fuel, heat and light, furniture, fittings and leases.

The total additional expenditure on this Vote amounts to €4.32 million. I propose that this be funded by transferring a surplus of €1.35 million in subhead C, appropriations-in-aid, to the subheads in question. The remaining balance of €2.969 million is being met by savings in other areas of the Vote. In summary, the total amount of additional expenditure for the three Votes is €38 million, or 2% of the total financial envelope for the Vote group for the full year. This €38 million is being financed by transferring €15.67 million in surplus appropriations-in-aid to spending subheads. The balance of €22.23 million is being met by savings of that amount on subheads in the three Votes in question.

Since January 2003 the Department has operated on the basis of monthly supervised profiles in expenditure, and we have achieved significantly improved and enhanced control over expenditure in the Department. We are fairly clear about how we are doing in each month, as against an annual profile. As a result of this new method, we have achieved the capacity to make some provision for contingencies, but over a year to live within our budget. There are three €1,000 nominal increased expenditure items being sought by me today but the reality is that the other movements of moneys are between expenditure subheads, taking in appropriations-in-aid. I am asking the committee to validate the very effective budgeting process that has taken place over the year in the Department.

What are appropriations-in-aid? From where is the money coming? What extra revenue have you received?

Appropriations-in-aid means many things. Garda pensions would be one of them. It covers receipts from contributions to the Garda spouses and children's pension scheme, contributions to the Garda Síochána pension scheme, miscellaneous receipts which are non-public duty fees for reports and the like, receipts from banks in respect of cash escort services and child care money coming in from the European Union and the like. Those are all brought in as cash items "around the corner" in public financial terms. They are not voted expenditure in the ordinary sense of current and capital expenditure.

Did you receive more than expected?

You received more money for pensions. Would that not go into a fund for pensions liability?

No. Our pensions are not funded in that way. It sounds Victorian, but the money just comes in and goes out. Effectively, it is a current item. We received more contributions than we had anticipated, but apply it, if there is a shortfall, in increased expenditure in any given year. To an accountant like yourself, Chairman, these things are a bit of a mystery.

It is handy money.

It is the way it happens. Of the other items, for instance, the banks are paying us a significant sum - €3 million per annum - towards the cost of providing them with cash escort services by the Garda Síochána. Those items are additional receipts. The understanding with the Department of Finance now is that, within certain limits, each Minister lives within a cash envelope and is free to move moneys around within the envelope, subject to the obligation to come to this committee and explain in certain circumstances what they are doing.

There seem to be savings in subheads and you did not go into them in the same detail. Will you let us know broadly what are the savings?

The savings are spread right across the board. On the Garda Vote, the principal items in question were as follows. There was a saving of €4 million on office machinery.

What was that for? That is a lot of money for office machinery.

It was computers and other things. At the beginning of the year there are various projects put in place, some of which materialise and some of which do not. In some cases it is decided not to go ahead with these projects and in other cases the timing of the projects changes.

That resulted in a saving of €4 million.

Yes. There was €23.2 million in the original Estimate and the Revised Estimate is €18.692 million, resulting in a saving of €4.5 million.

The sums for implementation of Garda SMI, which is not as big an item, are fees spent on consultants on the SMI steering group and the bottom-up review process. At the beginning of the year we anticipated we would have to spend €611,000 but in fact we only spent €271,000, resulting in the saving of a third of a million euro.

On the EU Presidency, there was €1 million provided for training and purchase of equipment. Some €850,000 was spent and therefore there is a saving of €150,000.

Where were there savings of over €500,000?

The original Estimate for clothing and accessories was €3.226 million and the outturn was €2.996 million, resulting in a saving of €230,000. There was a significant saving on communications and other equipment because €17.6 million was provided for and €12.25 million was actually expended, leaving a saving of €5.4 million.

Did that have anything to do with digital technology?

On the capital side, there was procurement of less radio and telephone equipment than was anticipated. That saving has been partially off-set by additional expenditure on subhead E2. In addition, savings were also made because the projects to implement six Garda CCTV schemes did not go ahead as quickly as anticipated and we do not have to pay the bills for those in this calendar year. Some €1.686 million was provided for the purchase of Garda aircraft equipment but we have saved exactly €1 million on that. On the appropriations-in-aid, there is a €9.9 million improvement.

I have increased the amount being received by the banks for cash escorts from over €1 million to €3 million, and I intend to increase it further in the years to come.

Can they afford it?

Their profits are looking fairly hefty these days but I must be careful because Deputy Costello would probably accuse me of being unfair to the banks.

I welcome the Minister and his officials and compliment him on the prudent monitoring of spending per month in the Department. On the additional €850,000 the Minister is proposing to make good the funding for the Legal Aid Board, I am not being critical of the error because anyone can make an error. On the shortfall of funding which occurred, were services and staffing reduced because of the error? Were they working on a reduced budget which is now being rectified?

No. There was a technical problem. Since they are entitled to keep cash on hands and bring it forward to the next year, there is a roll-over of cash. They overestimated the amount of money they had by €850,000 due to a simple accounting error. It was discovered that this error had taken place on moneys brought forward from 2002. Effectively it amounted to an overstatement of the amount of cash they had on hands and we had to make an adjustment.

Before the error was identified, budget commitments had already been made based on incorrect budget provisions and those commitments related to a Circuit Court pilot scheme for the use of private practitioners and the refurbishment of a law centre. I was committed to those expenditure items and I am now putting the money in place for them.

Money is tight for the Legal Aid Board. The Deputy is aware of this. In Nenagh, in particular, there are serious problems. I hope to alleviate the tightness in money next year by every means open to me to make sure there is adequate money for the Legal Aid Board to function and make progress with its waiting lists.

I would welcome that. From the Nenagh experience of the Legal Aid Board, secretarial services survive on three-month contracts and there is a significant demand in view of the fact that Nenagh services the area stretching as far as Clonmel. It is an issue which is pertinent to my area.

Following on the tragic death of Eamon Leahy, Anne Colley was made chairman of the Legal Aid Board. She and I have had a number of discussions on this matter and I have given her as good a commitment as I can under the present budgetary circumstances that I will strive in every way to facilitate the Legal Aid Board to do its job properly.

I thank the Minister for that elaboration. Arising from your remarks about this being an accounting exercise, Chairman, why does the Minister bother coming into the committee at all with Supplementary Estimates if they are for €1,000 on each of the headings? Does the Minister have discretion to spend the moneys and move them from one subhead to another as long as they are kept within the overall budget? Is the Minister doing it just for our information or does he have any legal requirement to do it?

There is a constitutional requirement that the Dáil should vote supply for the Estimates every year, so I am not free to invent new expenditure items without getting authority from the House. Within my Vote I have a power of virement which allows me to shunt money above and below the line within spending subheads on a Vote. If I want to move money from below the line, such as from appropriations-in-aid and the like, and shift it into expenditure items I must come back to the Dáil and get permission. That is a legal requirement under 19th century public finance regulatory legislation.

It is the €20 million or whatever the appropriations-in-aid we are really discussing, not the €1,000——

I could shift things within spending subheads but if it was purely virement I would not be here. It is because I am moving appropriations-in-aid up——

That is the excuse for coming in.

That is the pretext.

Yes, I wanted to clarify that. We are looking at some of the subheads that the Minister is off-setting and it would be good to get the full breakdown of the information of where savings are made. Page 2 of the briefing provided, for example, talks about savings of €7.6 million in other subheads. Savings have been made in some very sensitive areas, such as €1.6 million on the asylum seekers task force, €1 million on asylum recruitment to local authorities, €2 million on child care and €1 million on gender mainstreaming and positive action for women. There is a 76% cut in the racism education and awareness budget.

Could we not have thought about boosting these areas with some of the money that is being juggled around as well as the other areas earmarked? Nobody would disagree with more expenditure on Garda overtime. We are halfway through that additional spend, which was for November and December 2003, and the Minister might give us some idea of how effective that has been in lessening the problems in Finglas and Limerick.

I was curious about the amount of retirements from the Garda - there had been a greater than expected level of retirements but this had declined towards the end of 2003. With the expectation of the extra benefit from benchmarking, there is likely to temporarily be a lower rate of retirement that will manifest itself in additional retirements in 2004. Thus, the Minister could have great difficulty in reaching his targeted level of recruitment. Is there any sign of a trend towards excessive Garda retirements in comparison with previous years? An argument has been made, and some anecdotal evidence would suggest, that a greater percentage of middle management gardaí are dropping out of the force over the last number of months and this is a new manifestation which reflects some concern about the direction in which things have been going for some time.

It is not an exact science and I cannot at any given stage estimate precisely what is going to happen in the Garda Síochána because individual choices will be made. It is equivalent to a demand-led scheme and I cannot control individual decisions by members of the Garda Síochána. I cannot apply the breaks and stop gardaí retiring when they are legally entitled to do so. However, to put it in context, the number of people retiring from the Garda Síochána has varied between 2.5% and 3.3% over the last six years. Some 2.5% of gardaí retired in 1998, 2.5% in 1997, 2.7% in 2000, 2.4% in 2001 and 3% in 2002. Our estimate for 2003 is 3.3%.

The view of the Garda management is that the figure is unlikely to exceed 4% in any given year over the next five. I cannot say whether the figure will be 2.7% or 3.6% at any given stage. It is not a case of a trend which has gone out of control.

The variation is from 2.4% to 3.3%, which is almost a full percentage point. Have we any idea of the point at which recruitment from Templemore is unable to match retirements? What percentage of resignations or retirements each year is Templemore able to offset with new recruits?

That is a hard question to answer. I will give the Deputy some figure which might be of interest to him. There are compulsory and non-compulsory retirements, but over a longer period of time the two are obviously related because eventually the non-compulsory retirements become compulsory. Over a ten-year period, for example, if the compulsory and non-compulsory retirements are added together the situation is likely to be more or less static depending on the amount of people in the force.

I wish to give the Deputy some projections. For 31 December 2004 it is projected that there will be total retirements of 394, but theoretically 1,500 could leave. The present estimates are for 432 retirements in 2005, which is up by 30 or 40. Up to 1,758 people could retire. In 2006, however, the number of people who could retire will fall again to 1,663 and the total retirement is likely to be of the order of 414. The one thing I can be sure about is compulsory retirements. I cannot be sure of the others.

What is the yearly capacity of Templemore?

It is 690 this year.

So there are 400 retirements and 600 coming into the force, so the Minister can bring in 200 or so additional people per year.

Yes, 200 per annum——

Is that on top of retirements?

That is on top of retirements——

Then there are resignations.

Are resignations different from retirements?

No. When Templemore is working at full blast it can produce a surplus over average retirements of 250. However, this is not an exact science because at any given stage the figures can vary.

Does the Garda run a pre-retirement course and, if so, is it open to people who retire under the retirement requirements as well as those who might want to retire early?

There was some publicity recently that a record number of people were on the pre-retirement courses but my understanding, and I hope I will not end up with egg all over my face, is that this does not directly indicate the number of people which common sense might suggest are actually going to leave.

I would have thought that the number of people attending pre-retirement courses would be an indication.

Nothing in this is exact.

Deputy Costello, have you attended a pre-retirement course?

No. We will do one together, Chairman.

I must stress that in order to keep the number of gardaí hovering around the 12,200 figure, which is my policy, I must make estimates in order to keep the Minister for Finance sweet on the matter of the likely rate of retirement. Effectively I must do guesstimates of what is going to happen. I cannot be certain that an extra hundred people would not suddenly fall out of the system.

Deputy Costello, do you have other questions?

Yes, there are a couple. I note there has been a transfer of funds into the areas of witness expenses and the witness security programme as well as courthouses. As the Minister will be aware, at present the committee is discussing presentations on witness protection and related matters. There seems to be less emphasis put on guaranteeing the security of witnesses and giving them a fair deal than on other parts of the criminal justice system, and the courthouses have a lot to answer for in terms of conditions, segregation, etc. In the Supplementary Estimate, the Minister is presumably providing for some maintenance work for courthouses. Has he planned for a more comprehensive look at this area?

There was €750,000 saved on courthouses.

I noted that too but the Minister is transferring further funds.

I am advised that this relates to the late arrival of bills and that the draw down was less than anticipated. The Courts Service is engaging in a major programme of refurbishment and improvement of courthouses, and also of rationalisation. Its plan is to have good quality courthouses at more centralised locations rather than to maintain a diffuse network of District Court facilities, in particular, in circumstances where they are used one or two days a month. These buildings are very expensive to keep. Their roofs must be maintained and the buildings kept dry. One cannot have the judge, the witnesses and gardaí coming into a building which is allowed to deteriorate.

There was a time when there was massive reluctance, particularly on the part of local solicitors, to the closure of courthouses because in any town with a small District Court building there would be one or two solicitors who would make money out of representing other solicitors at the sittings, for example, by undertaking a licensing application or defending a speeding motorist. The chief executive officer of the Courts Service has told me that the demand for one-off appearances in local District Court sittings has declined because of the advent of the points system and on-the-spot fines. In fairness to the legal profession, the balance of opinion among its members has swung to the point where they are more content to have decent courthouses, where they can meet their clients and carry out their business in reasonably dignified circumstances, rather than in a network of poorly maintained courthouses which was the pattern in the past.

Deputy Costello, will you put all of your remaining questions together?

I will ask one further question and leave it at that. It is the one I asked originally on the off-setting of savings on page 2 of the briefing note. How come areas that seem to be burgeoning and in need of an injection of funds such as child care, asylum and positive action for women, are subject to such substantially lower expenditure than expected?

I will give an example. The provision made at the beginning of the year did not anticipate the more rapid decline in asylum numbers which has taken place.

Did that trend continue this month?

Yes. The numbers are down to 30% or 40% of what they were for the months at the beginning of the year. The graph is going down. That simply was not provided for and obviously that money is a welcome saving from my point of view. If there are fewer asylum seekers, I can claw back money in that area.

In areas such as child care where obviously there is ongoing demand, in any process there are always casualties such as those who are slower than anticipated in being in a position to provide an architect's certificate to take up the funding available for a project, for instance, or delays of that kind. When a Department does what my Department is now doing, one looks carefully at the books to see where those savings lie instead of doing what happened in previous years. Without meaning to be critical of anybody else, in the past throughout the public service everything was allowed run until December and people were frenetically trying to spend money which otherwise would have to be handed back. If one does it according to a monthly profile, one can manage all of these matters much more consistently. I look forward to the day when Departments will be given the right to carry forward some fraction of their annual capital budget, in particular, because with the best will in the world there is a temptation in November and December to spend needlessly on the capital side because Departments do not like handing back the money to the Department of Finance.

Today's newspapers stated that you would be agreeing to do so this morning for five years.

I am being very reticent about these matters. I look forward to the day when that is the law.

If that were the case, the Department could hold on to the money it gets.

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