SELECT COMMITTEE ON JUSTICE, EQUALITY, DEFENCE AND WOMEN'S RIGHTS díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 28 Mar 2007

2007 Output Statement for Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform.

Chairman

I welcome the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform, Deputy McDowell, and his officials to the meeting. The purpose of the meeting is to consider the Revised Estimates for the justice group for 2007: Vote 19 — Justice, Equality and Law Reform, Vote 20 — Garda Síochána, Vote 21 — Prisons, Vote 22 — Courts Service, and Vote 23 — Land Registry and Registry of Deeds. Members have also been circulated with the 2007 Output Statement for the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform. This is part of a new process put in place to facilitate committees in their detailed consideration of the Estimates process.

I invite the Minister to make his opening statement.

Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform, (Mr. McDowell)

I welcome the opportunity to appear before the select committee as it considers the Estimates for my Department's group of Votes.

Today's discussion will, no doubt, be influenced by the new approach which the Government has adopted in submitting departmental spending plans for Oireachtas scrutiny. This new format will be an aid to understanding and analysing the return from public expenditure but its novelty should not mask the underlying continuity of the investment made in the justice and equality sector over recent years.

The format may be different but what stands out very clearly from the figures is the extent to which the 2007 Estimates build on the investment of previous years. It is worth pausing to recall the scale of that investment. The total gross financial provision across the justice Votes has increased by €830 million since 2002, an increase of more than 50%. More than €500 million of that additional gross expenditure has been on the Garda Vote alone. This investment has made possible a whole spectrum of significant achievements, notably the expansion in Garda numbers, the provision of additional prison spaces, improvement of court facilities, extensive funding in the equality sector and the development of immigration and asylum services.

Landmark institutional developments have also been made possible using this funding. New organisations have been put in place since 2002 and given the resources to tackle difficult issues. These include the Irish Youth Justice Service, the Garda Inspectorate, the Garda Ombudsman Commission and the Private Security Authority. Others are either in development or, in the case of the National Property Services Regulatory Authority, established on an interim footing. The 2007 Estimates provision is the latest instalment in this story and, with a total gross allocation for the sector of €2.4 billion, is up 10% on the 2006 figure.

Rather than solely submitting details of the five individual Votes, as in previous years, the new approach to this process adds to this information by accounting for the Department's activity across nine core programmes or pillars. This has been documented in a departmental Output Statement which has been submitted to the committee. The Output Statement takes one through each of the programme areas, identifying the planned expenditure broken down into programme and administrative outlay and also setting out the number of staff employed under each heading. A number of key high level outputs for 2007 are shown under each programme, as is the expected impact of these outputs over the next few years. Of course these are not the only outputs or impacts which will be delivered but they do represent priority areas on our list of objectives.

Our intention is that this new approach will lead to an enhanced focus on the outcomes of departmental spending with consequential improvements in transparency, accountability and value for money. The process is expected to become more sophisticated as it embeds in all Departments and once it has been in operation for a number of years it should be possible to better judge whether planned expenditure has delivered the promised outcomes and had the desired impacts. Incidentally, had the technique been in place over the past few years, I do not doubt that the findings would reflect well on what has been achieved over that time.

The Output Statement speaks for itself in many respects but I would like to highlight a number of items which I know will be of particular interest to the committee.

Beginning with the policing and anti-crime measures, the €1.4 billion provided illustrates the commitment to resourcing security and law enforcement in our community. At the heart of this is the Government's programme to increase the strength of the Garda Síochána, which has been stepped up to include a further increase of 1,000, to 15,000 over the next three years. The facts on the ground will speak for themselves and silence the sniping around this programme. More than 275 fully trained gardaí will graduate every quarter during 2007, giving the Commissioner the resources to focus on highly visible policing throughout the country. The Garda traffic corps, in particular, will reach 1,000 in number by the end of the year, doubling its strength since 2005. The Government has also approved an additional 300 civilian administrative support positions within the Garda Síochána which will further accelerate the release of gardaí for frontline operational duties.

The support facilities are also being constantly developed. The budget for maintenance works on Garda stations is up by €2.1 million to €8.36 million in 2007 and will head off the problems which can give rise to unsuitable working conditions in local Garda stations. Expenditure on the Garda IT infrastructure has also been increased, as is the funding for communications and community protection equipment, which is up 32%.

The year 2007 also sees the beginning of the roll-out of the new national digital radio service and I was pleased to be able to announce the preferred bidder for this project earlier this week. The new facility will provide a secure radio communications service that is effective, resilient and reliable. It will also open up opportunities for innovative and improved means of managing Garda communications, as well as for enhanced operational communications with other emergency services. Furthermore, it is interoperable with the PSNI's system. These figures bear out the message I have been constantly emphasising that we continue to provide record resources to tackle crime and enhance community safety. These resources will be deployed by the Garda Commissioner to give effect to the annual policing plan and their success will be measurable against the targets set out in that plan.

The headline item in the prisons area is the prison building programme. Funding is included to cover the initial site works for the Thornton Hall project, and I expect to be in a position to announce the successful PPP tender in the next few weeks. Thornton Hall will provide accommodation for more than 1,400 offenders and greatly improve the rehabilitation and other facilities. By making it possible to close Mountjoy Prison and move to a new generation of offender management facilities, this project will stand as one of the landmark achievements of the Government in the field of criminal justice. More immediately, the 2007 funding will also allow for the completion of expansion projects at Portlaoise, Castlerea, Loughan House and Shelton Abbey, which together will provide an additional 313 spaces for the system. Those works are well in hand and some are nearing completion.

Capital investment also stands out in the funding for the Courts Service. Almost €30 million will be available for major refurbishment works, as well as more than €10 million for less significant repairs. The highlight, however, will be the commencement of construction of the new criminal courts complex, which is a PPP project. This is perhaps the most significant physical development within the court system since the Four Courts were brought into operation after the foundation of the State.

A specific programme heading has also been included to reflect the Department's objective of promoting a more tolerant and equal society. This captures activity dealing with issues in the equality sector, including the specific areas of gender, disability and interculturalism. Programme funding of €36 million is being made available to support these objectives in 2007. This area will also benefit considerably on a rolling basis under the National Development Plan 2007-13. For example, €58.64 million is to be spent under the plan on implementing the national women's strategy, which is due to be published shortly. Some €21 million is also allocated under the NDP for measures to tackle domestic violence. This is another area where a new approach is envisaged. My Department is working to implement innovative proposals to this end, which I plan to announce in the near future.

In regard to immigration and asylum, the total gross provision for the year is €146 million. However, this is only a fraction of annual State spending in this area. Included in that provision is a sum of €12.5 million for three major IT projects designed to upgrade and enhance our visa, immigration, asylum and identification systems. These projects will significantly enhance the capacity of the immigration services to tackle clandestine entry. In addition, they will improve customer service delivery and enable speedier decisions to be made in respect of immigration applications. The investment in new technology will be complemented by a new immigration, residence and protection Bill that will consolidate the legislation in this field and provide for further developments to take account of this increasingly complex field of public policy. I hope to publish this Bill in the next few days.

We all appreciate that an important element of how we face up to the challenges presented by immigration is far-sighted management of the integration of long-term legal migrants. A comprehensive programme of dialogue with stakeholders is under way on this front, and last month featured a major conference on the subject. While other Departments will in the main be responsible for delivering integration services, the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform will provide overall policy development and co-ordination. A dedicated integration unit will ensure key strategic issues such as language training, funding of community groups and the provision of information to migrants are addressed on a cross-cutting basis.

I already mentioned the establishment of the youth justice service as one of the key achievements of the past five years. Its significance merits a distinct programme within the Department's output statement. The service's primary role is to develop effective responses to juvenile crime. During 2007, a national youth justice strategy will be developed to chart how the Department will carry out its new responsibilities in this field.

As of 1 March, the new service has already assumed responsibility for the State's detention schools, and €16.4 million has been allocated for their operation. This is in addition to the €21.6 million allocated for the new youth justice service itself, which includes substantial capital funding. These combined resources will enable a badly needed programme of rejuvenation of youth detention and training facilities to be commenced in 2007.

The new service is also committed to the continued development and expansion of Garda youth diversion projects, and the budget for these has been increased to €9.8 million — an increase of 48% — in 2007. The target is to increase the number of programmes from 84 to 100 by the end of the year. This is another area where substantial further funding has been planned under the NDP, reflecting my strong belief that detention should be a measure of last resort for young offenders and that early and effective investment will be money well spent.

The final programme area I will mention is that relating to the Property Registration Authority. This body, which took over responsibility for the Land Registry and Registry of Deeds last year on foot of the Registration of Deeds and Title Act 2006, also represents one of the important institutional developments of the past five years. The new body will carry forward the impressive achievements of the Land Registry in respect of the digital mapping project and in responding to the demands of the buoyant property market. It has also been charged with modernising and extending the registration of ownership of land.

The reforms to the land registration system contained in the new Act represent the most significant reform of the Land Registry and Registry of Deeds since the foundation of the State and are intended to simplify the procedures involved in buying and selling land and to reduce the delays and extra costs that frequently arise in land transactions. They will also pave the way for a system of e-conveyancing of property that will revolutionise the conveyancing process for the benefit of private individuals and business alike.

The chairman of the new authority is of the view that we should consider copying what has been done in Northern Ireland, where solicitors must henceforth oversee the paperwork and effect a first-time registration in respect of land that was not previously registered.

Mr. Howlin

Would that speed up the process here?

Mr. McDowell

Yes, because solicitors already undertake the paperwork for their clients. The new system in the North has proved dramatically successful. If such a system is introduced here, it will mean the work done by solicitors, who effectively have to do all the paperwork to create a folio, will be accepted by the Land Registry at face value. As a result, instead of several public servants having to second guess transactions and deal with a massive backlog, there will be a system of universal registration of title on all transactions, which is driven by solicitors.

Mr. Howlin

Would the Land Registry then be simply a database?

Mr. McDowell

No. The current system means solicitors are trundling along on their railway track while public servants are on another track dealing with the accumulation of arrears and from time to time declaring that compulsory registration is required in certain counties. A change such as that introduced in the North would ensure every registerable transaction is registered and that it is solicitors who do the paperwork.

Mr. J. O’Keeffe

That makes sense. It is time the system was moved into the 21st century.

We will spend no more than an hour considering these Estimates given that members wish to attend the Order of Business and that we probably will not return after that. We are discussing the allocation of moneys of the order of €2.5 billion. It is something of a charade that we deal with Estimates in this fashion. One of the changes the next Government should make is to introduce an effective examination of the Estimates, not for the purposes of either putting Ministers and officials on the rack or showing our appreciation of their work, whichever the case may be, but to facilitate effective oversight of the expenditure of sums of money so enormous that they are beyond the comprehension of most people. The cursory review currently done is entirely inadequate.

Mr. McDowell

I agree with the Deputy.

Mr. J. O’Keeffe

Let us make a resolution to take action in this regard when the Minister is on this side of the table after the election. We will have a proper Estimates debate and examine the detail. Going through the Minister's speech very quickly, I encountered the usual peroration on numbers in the Garda Síochána and the importance of highly visible policing. At this stage, with the Minister counting student gardaí as full-time members and the Taoiseach's rather manic comments made at the Fianna Fáil Ard-Fheis, I am not quite sure where we stand on numbers.

Perhaps we should lay down the rules for the future: only full-time members of the Garda should be counted as such. I am not sure how many are currently in the force, but the last parliamentary question that I tabled elicited the response that on 31 December 2007 there were 12,986. I imagine that there has been a slight increase since. If we are talking about numbers in the Garda Síochána, let us discuss the reality rather than using them for a PR exercise.

I am told that major training of new recruits to the Garda is taking place, no doubt with everything focused on another PR exercise by the Minister before the election. He will have them all parade in front of him and have us believe them full-time members. It is time the issue was removed from the political agenda.

Mr. McDowell

I will not do that. However, the passing-out parades are very big.

Mr. Howlin

It is the Minister's own passing-out parade that we await.

Mr. J. O’Keeffe

That will be sooner rather than later, but I speak of those who are not passing out but are presented in a show as if that were the case. Regarding numbers, let us be clear that they will have to be increased. There was a lengthy delay in raising them, and I am glad to see that even the Taoiseach is now getting in on the act and agreeing that we must increase numbers and have highly visible policing in communities over the coming years.

I am delighted to see the national digital radio service getting under way at long last, but I have not been given any explanation of why it took so long. It is unacceptable that an approach promoted and adopted in principle ten years ago — not by this Minister but by his predecessor, Deputy "zero tolerance" O'Donoghue — should be rolled out only now. Does that not indicate a malaise in our approach to getting things done? There was a long delay between the initial PR announcement ten years ago and the establishment of a much-needed service. It was quite ridiculous expecting members of the Garda Síochána to operate with 20 year old walkie-talkies.

On the prisons Vote, what does the announcement of a successful public private partnership, PPP, tender for Thornton Hall involve? Is it a contract arrangement or a PR announcement?

Mr. McDowell

It is a contract arrangement.

Mr. J. O’Keeffe

Perhaps the Minister might outline what such a contract arrangement might involve. Does it mean entering into a formal, binding legal arrangement to have Thornton Hall built?

Regarding the immigration Vote, an issue that caused me great concern was how the Refugee Appeals Tribunal was operating. Have any changes been made? Is it still a pork barrel for Fianna Fáil and Progressive Democrats barristers, who drew enormous sums for what seemed like very little work? Have changes been made to the tribunal's structure, and if not, why not?

Juvenile diversion projects enjoy cross-party support, but why, given the extra work done by juvenile liaison officers, JLOs, has that section of the Garda Síochána not been given the support it deserves? I am thinking in particular of the numbers of JLOs involved. I discovered that, on 31 December 2002, there were 93 of them, and on the same date in 2006 there were still 93. Why has no progress been made in allocating the staff numbers that it has sought for so long, if that service is as relevant and important as everyone agrees, and if it enjoys absolute cross-party support?

The property registration authority is doing a very good job. I have always supported changes to the Land Registry and giving it the resources to enable it to do the job. It is ridiculous that the accounts should be framed as if it were a drag on the Exchequer, since it has always turned a profit. It should have been dealt with accordingly. I am not sure if this still applies, but I saw that at one stage there was a public service embargo on numbers there. It was ridiculous that it was performing a function at a profit to the Exchequer only to be denied the staffing and resources necessary to do it more efficiently and effectively. I hope that as the property registration authority it will not be denied the resources, in numbers, modern equipment or technology, to enable it to do the job for which it was established. In passing, perhaps I might mention how courteous and helpful its staff are, something much appreciated.

On the general Vote for the Department, there are one or two things I should mention. Is the Minister satisfied that he has organised the Department in a manner allowing it to operate effectively and efficiently? That is what people now expect from any Minister. I know the Minister gets a great many Dáil questions, but recently there has been a great tendency on his part, rather like his Progressive Democrats colleague, the Minister for Health and Children, Deputy Harney, to pass on responsibility for answering them to someone else. It might be the CSO or the Courts Service, for example. That often results in an entirely unsatisfactory outcome, and I will give an example.

In Question No. 130 of 14 December 2006, I asked the Minister the number of bench warrants currently outstanding. He solemnly replied to me that they were no longer his function, and that he would arrange to have the matter referred to the Courts Service, which informed him that it would reply directly to me. Having failed to receive any such reply or details, I wrote to the chief executive of the Courts Service on 28 February, receiving a response on 10 March referring to my letter and stating that the question had unfortunately not been forwarded to the Courts Service by the Minister's office. The chief executive promised to forward me the statistics directly as soon as they became available. The Minister is off-loading his responsibility on to others without even informing them of the questions they are supposed to answer. I suggest that it is a most unsatisfactory way of doing business.

Other areas of great concern regarding the Department generally include such simple matters as people ringing up and not being able to get through to anyone on the telephone. Is the Minister satisfied that he has efficient arrangements in place? The public, after all, pays his salary, those of his officials, and those of Members. Are they getting a satisfactory service from his Department? I have received endless numbers of complaints from people trying to contact the person dealing with their issue who are unable to locate the official concerned. That is not good enough in this day and age.

There are rules and regulations governing naturalisation. A person who lives in Ireland for five years may apply to become an Irish citizen. In addition, if a foreigner marries an Irish citizen, he or she may apply for naturalisation in due course.

Mr. Howlin

At present there is a two-year waiting list after the person qualifies for naturalisation.

Mr. J. O’Keeffe

As pointed out by my colleague, if there is a two-year waiting list before the application is dealt with, is that in breach of the spirit of the statute, if nothing else? The statute provides that one can apply for naturalisation having lived in the county for five of the past nine years and that one can apply at the end of the fourth year, or in the case of marriage to an Irish citizen at the end of three years. Is it a breach of statute if the process is administered in such a manner that the application is not even looked at for a further two years? Is the Minister in breach of the law if an application, made in accordance with the law, is ignored for a period of two years? That is not an efficient way of doing business. I urge the Minister to make arrangements so that a person is not denied his or her entitlement to naturalisation.

I am dealing with the case of a person from South Africa who has been living in Ireland since 1999. He lodged an application for citizenship three years ago and received word to apply again. This man wants to marry an Irish person, but cannot leave the country while the process of naturalisation is ongoing. That is not acceptable. My basic point is that the system must be effective.

The hallmark of this Government is inefficiency, waste and incompetence. I would have expected more from the Department of Justice. Equality and Law Reform, but unfortunately the record to date, even with expenditure of €2.5 billion is not so great.

Mr. Howlin

I welcome the opportunity to debate the issue with the Minister, stultified and all as it is. We need to restructure the debate from the current system where we listen to a speech on the aggregate spending in the Department without knowing the specifics. It would be a useful exercise to examine the accounts in public session and go through the figure to see how we spend and if we are getting value for our money. I am in no doubt about the ability of the Minister and this Government to spend money. The mantra of the Minister's party used to be "value for money is the key", but by any stretch of the imagination the old idea of having regard to the value of money extracted from the taxpayers seems to have abated during their ten years in power. That is a subject we will debate in different platforms in the coming weeks.

There is a fixation — and this applies to the Labour Party in Britain — on measuring the outputs of everything which is seen as the only way that one can be assured of value for money. Some things cannot be measured. One cannot put a yardstick on education outcomes, in a simple way without upsetting other things. We have fallen into that trap in measuring the outcomes in health and justice. Measuring the outcomes skews good policing, for example. Surely the only data of relevance to the work of the traffic corps is the reduction in the number of accidents, injuries and fatalities and not a checklist of the number of prosecutions, or the numbers who are bagged. I have heard directly from members of the Garda Síochána that comparisons are made within areas that a garda is a failure if he or she does not bag the equivalent number as his or her colleague. I enter that caveat in making outputs the key to all expenditure. We must be careful of what we define as outputs.

The Minister does not fall into any such trap in the document he circulated because the impact of spending is recorded in such a general nature. He states, for example, that the expenditure on the Garda Síochána is to have an impact on the reduction in crime, improved crime detection and prosecution. One could argue that the outputs are not so great. The proposed impact of the prison service is to give greater encouragement and support for prisoners in their endeavours to live law-abiding purposeful lives. The Minister will note from some of the interactions we have had that the rate of recidivism for people who have been through the prison system is alarmingly high and has been so for a very long time. The governor of Mountjoy Prison, Mr. Lonergan, is able to say that the bulk of his client base comes from designated postal districts in Dublin. There are broader issues that we must come to grips with in dealing with these matters.

In the time allocated to me I cannot deal fairly with a Vote of the magnitude of the policing Vote. We will park the issue of the number of Garda, and the promise of an increase of 2,000 in the force that was put on hold after the last general election. I will not argue whether we will reach the figure of 14,000 attested Garda, whether they will have all gone through the exact same training and will all be on the beat. There is a realisation that we will get there or thereabouts by the end of this year. The Minister and his partner in Government announced the new objective of 15,000 Garda.

Mr. McDowell

It is 16,000.

Mr. J. O’Keeffe

He confused us all.

Mr. Howlin

I do not know whether the 2,000 members the Minister continues to announce are the last 2,000 or the next 2,000. It almost seems like compound interest. It was for that reason I advocated that we maintain the throughput of the Garda College at current capacity until we have the legislation for the new Garda authority in place and for the authority to determine what is appropriate and for Government to accept that determination within the confines of resource. That is a better way of doing it rather than waiting for the next Ard-Fheis to determine an effective number for the force. That is the joint approach of Fine Gael and the Labour Party.

The Minister referred to a traffic corps with 1,000 staff. What are the terms of employment for those 1,000 members? Are they deployed exclusively on traffic corps work or can they be redeployed when there is an emergency or crisis? Do they do anything other than traffic corps work? What is the target in that regard? Also, what is the timeframe for delivering on the optimum number of deployed gardaí in the traffic corps?

The Minister stated that new garda radios are on order to replace the old ones. The Chairman may recall that contract was signed by the Minister for Finance during the crisis at the end of last year when the number of gangland murders sent shock waves throughout the system. This was done, as I pointed out during discussions on parliamentary questions, to ensure gardaí do not have to rely on their own mobile phones as the most effective way of making contact.

On the prison service, I listened with interest to the Minister's statement this morning in respect of the Thornton Hall public private partnership, PPP, process. The Minister indicated during the passage of the Prisons Bill that it would fall to the incoming Government to make final decisions in respect of planning matters in that regard because the report of the rapporteur will not be available between now and the election. What exactly is the Minister telling us this morning? Will an irrevocable contract be signed in respect of the building of Thornton Hall in advance of the election regardless of the outcome of the planning process which cannot be completed as the terms of the new Act apply? This is a matter upon which the Oireachtas must ultimately vote. I take it this will not happen in the timeframe available? It will be interesting to hear whether the new Act applies; what the timeframe involved is and what are the implications of the Minister signing a PPP contract in the interim. Also, what is the current position in respect of the public private partnership contract for the criminal court complex?

The Vote includes €146 million for immigration services as dealt with by the immigration and naturalisation unit of the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform. While this appears a small sum obviously, it is not a comprehensive sum. Perhaps the Minister will give the select committee the comprehensive sum in that regard. I have two related questions. First, what is the allocation in respect of an integration process for the 10% of non-Irish people now resident in the State to ensure there is not development of two parallel communities? Does this come within the remit of the Minister's Department or of another Department? Also, what type of support is available for this unique and important part of the development of new societies?

On the Minister's announcement that the new immigration Bill will be published in the next few days, will it be next week's emergency legislation? Before coming to this meeting, I received my 11th list of amendments for the Criminal Justice Bill. I am alarmed at the manner in which we are doing our business. What is the Minister's intention in respect of this legislation which deals with extremely sensitive issues that require time to digest?

Another issue that arises is the national women's strategy which the Minister has promised to support. It would appear he is checking all the boxes prior to the election. Having been in office for ten years and with only three or four weeks remaining before this Government goes out of office, the Minister stated he wants to develop a national strategy for women. I have received communications from interested parties on the document dealing with violence against women. They are concerned they have not had an input into this document which they believe is about to be published. While the Minister is, in general terms, supportive of criminalising violence, there is a perception that he wishes to deal with domestic violence outside of the criminal law area. This is a difficult issue. It is important we state clearly that violence perpetrated, even in the domestic setting, is a criminal act and will be dealt with as such. However, we will have another opportunity to deal with that issue. We must ensure in advance of anything being signed off on by Government that the agencies working at the coalface on this matter have an input into the Minister's thinking before it is set in stone.

In a different structure of debate, we might have had time to tease out many of the following issues. I have raised the issue of support for the State pathologist by way of parliamentary question. The sum provided in that regard is rather bland. What type of backup does the State pathologist have? Is she provided with transport and, if so, on what basis? How many deputies assist her and how many people are on call?

I have several questions on related issues on which perhaps the Minister will communicate with me if he does not have time to respond to them today. The Forensic Science Laboratory will this year receive €6 million in funding, the same amount provided last year. Many of us are addicted to crime scene investigation programmes on television. There has been an enormous amount of development in the area of forensic science. The sum of €6 million appears a paltry sum. Why are we not providing an increased level of funding in respect of the forensic examination of evidence? I am sure there is much contract work in this area also. Perhaps when the Minister responds on this matter he will update us in respect of the firing range for the Garda Síochána.

The Garda Ombudsman Commission which will open for business from 8 May requested that it be allowed to recruit 100 investigators. This is not an exact science because no one knows what will be the level of business that will arise when it opens its doors. I understand the commission has received 82 of the 100 investigators requested, some 20% less than what it asked for. What is the Minister's thinking in regard to the provision of resources to the Garda Ombudsman Commission? If on opening for business on 8 May, it receives a significant number of investigative requests, as will more than likely be the case, how does the Minister propose to deal with this in terms of resources? I do not believe the Minister will disagree with me when I say that it is important it is seen to be effective from the beginning. We should not allow for the creation of a backlog that will result in its being over-burdened in terms of doing anything. It is a difficult area and I am interested to hear the Minister's views on it.

Mr. J. O’Keeffe

Will the commission have authority to deal with cases from the past?

Mr. Howlin

It has legal provision to do so under the Act.

Mr. J. O’Keeffe

In practical terms, how far back will it go?

Mr. Howlin

The prisons inspectorate is to be put on a statutory footing for the first time. What resources and support will it receive?

Vote 19 deals with the probation service, the outturn for which last year was €28 million. The Estimate for this year is approximately €20 million. Perhaps the Minister will outline the reason for the significant decrease in this area.

My final question relates to witness security which we have debated on several occasions during question time in the Dáil. The sum provided this year in respect of witness protection is €1 million. How important is the witness protection programme in terms of tackling serious gangland crime in particular? If that is to be the magnitude of its use, obviously it will not be hugely significant in tackling organised crime as in the American and European-Italian experience. I am not suggesting we are comparable or parallel to those jurisdictions in terms of gangland criminality. If the best way of dealing with this is extracting whistleblowers from the heart of the criminal conspiracy then we need to ensure such people are supported and protected.

Chairman

I take it this is members' consideration of Votes 19 to 23?

Mr. Howlin

Yes.

Mr. J. O’Keeffe

It is all we can do in the time available.

Mr. McDowell

I agree with the Deputies that there may be more satisfactory ways than this to deal with Estimates. However, this procedure is not of my designing. I am certainly not trying to exclude debate.

Deputy O'Keeffe raised several issues. My officials and the current Secretary General are doing their best to modernise and make effective the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform. It is transforming visibly under my eyes. It has come from being a Department-----

Mr. Howlin

Perhaps we could go one step further towards transparency. I do not know if it is the norm but can the Minister introduce his officials and outline for us what they do?

Mr. McDowell

I do not want to do that. They have come here to assist me.

Mr. Howlin

It would be useful for us to know who they are and what they do.

Mr. McDowell

I will introduce them to the Deputy following the meeting.

Mr. J. O’Keeffe

We might need to phone them.

Mr. McDowell

The Deputy has anticipated my next remark. We are currently developing a new website for the Department from which it will be clear precisely whom people are dealing with. People will no longer have to go through an exchange to speak to a particular person. The website will contain contact numbers for each section.

Mr. Howlin

I hope Burgh Quay is not an example.

Mr. McDowell

That is what is planned. Deputy O'Keeffe asked about Burgh Quay and civilianisation. The INIS has been established and it will be put on a statutory footing when the new immigration, residence and protection Bill is introduced. The vast majority of INIS activities are, unfortunately, devoted to asylum seekers as a result of the enormous volume of unfounded applications constantly being made by would-be economic migrants posing as asylum seekers. The problem has reduced by approximately one-third in terms of additional applications compared with when I took over as Minister.

Mr. Howlin

The former Minister, Deputy John O'Donoghue, was never any good.

Mr. McDowell

There has been a downturn in the number of applications. A weakness in our system resulted in a volume of applications. We had not prepared for such a volume of applications. While we were not alone in this, we were probably in the weakest position of all in that we had little infrastructure of the administrative kind in place. We also had a highly supervisory judicial regime. It was bad enough that we had not made any preparations but we had an extremely demanding judicial supervisory system and a very generous legal disposition towards asylum seekers. We were not in the best position to deal with the situation. A problem also arose in respect of citizenship.

Mr. J. O’Keeffe

The number of people seeking asylum has decreased here as in all other European countries. Surely there should be no delay in dealing with bona fide applications for citizenship be it post-nuptial citizenship or long residence citizenship.

Mr. McDowell

The Deputy is correct. We are installing an IT system that will deal with applications for asylum. Every file in respect of asylum application is approximately nine inches thick. They are enormous files which contain countless documents all requiring examination. The current system is unsatisfactory. We could have waited until the IT system was in place to deal with these applications but this would have resulted in a backlog of approximately 30,000 applications. There has been a dramatic improvement in the length of time taken to consider asylum applications. Deputy O'Keeffe asked how the RAT is functioning. I believe its volume of business is contracting dramatically.

Mr. J. O’Keeffe

The volume of fees are contracting too.

Mr. McDowell

Exactly, there is a fee per item. It is far less substantial than it was. I agree with the fundamental point that a person should be allowed to apply for citizenship having resided here for a period of five years. However, I emphasise that this is discretionary in that nobody is entitled to become an Irish citizen. I also agree that post-nuptial citizenship causes serious problems if it is not delivered promptly. For example, a South African woman, married to an Irish man, could encounter colossal problems when travelling abroad if she does not have the required visas and so on. This is a priority for my Department.

Mr. J. O’Keeffe

Mothers and babies are being dealt with separately because the mothers are not EU citizens.

Mr. McDowell

I agree. Post-nuptial citizenship should be subject to checking to ensure the marriages are genuine and not marriages of convenience. We should expedite this to the maximum possible extent.

What happened is that public servants had to deal with a tsunami in terms of asylum applications and they are only now tidying up after it by way of installing new management systems and so on. They could not simply concentrate on post-nuptial citizenship applications.

Mr. J. O’Keeffe

People should be assigned to dealing with bona fide applications for post-nuptial citizenship and so on.

Mr. McDowell

I agree with the Deputy that such applications and those submitted under the five year rule should be expedited. It is unsatisfactory that a person who makes a prima facie case should receive a letter stating that owing to delays the application will not be considered for years and — I find this deeply unsatisfactory — requesting that the person not contact the Department as to do so would only add to the delay.

Mr. J. O’Keeffe

Where it is found that there was a delay of one month in the issue of a work permit, such application is returned to the applicant. That is ridiculous.

Mr. McDowell

The INIS is aware that it has a mountain to climb. It started deep down in a valley and is now climbing that mountain. Funding has been provided for the IT supports needed. This will result in it being able to track every visa or citizenship application. An issue also arises in respect of contact having to be made with Burgh Quay in every case. This matter will be addressed in the future.

The Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform is in a process of self-transformation. It is improving dramatically and becoming much more user friendly and transparent than heretofore.

Mr. Howlin

It is in better shape for us.

Mr. McDowell

Yes. We never hear which Deputy aspires to being Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform. However, members can settle that between themselves.

Mr. J. O’Keeffe

We will sort that out ourselves when we have the passing-out parade for the current Minister.

Mr. Howlin

I recall having that discussion with Ivan Yates on the way to a television debate.

Mr. McDowell

I am confident the people will reject the slump coalition.

Mr. J. O’Keeffe

That is why the Minister will be passed out; this is the slump coalition.

Mr. McDowell

I am confident the two Deputies opposite will have another five years during which to sort out which of them should get my job.

Mr. Howlin

Will the Minister provide us with briefing so that we will be able to hit the ground running?

Mr. McDowell

I am confident they will face electoral defeat in the near future.

Mr. Howlin

I take it the Minister is talking generically as opposed to individually.

Mr. McDowell

The Land Registry is undergoing very significant transformation. Deputy O'Keeffe is correct to commend in that case too the public servants who are doing the work. We are on a clear path towards electronic land transactions and electronic registration. We are also — based on my discussions with the Chairman of the authority — well on the road to achieving fairly rapid universal registration which will be an enormous improvement.

Mr. J. O’Keeffe

I ask the Minister to pass on my compliments to them.

Mr. McDowell

I will. I thank the Deputy.

Chairman

With no disrespect to the Minister, is it possible he might correspond with members on all of the outstanding matters?

Mr. McDowell

I will respond to them now. There are 1,000 gardaí assigned to the traffic corps.

Mr. Howlin

There will be 1,000 staff later this year.

Mr. McDowell

Yes. The final number of gardaí to be assigned to be traffic corps will be 1,200. Members of the traffic corps can be assigned to other duties in an emergency. However, their primary duty is to maintain visible road traffic activity.

Mr. Howlin

Are they doing so now?

Mr. McDowell

That is their purpose. I cannot say that when a murder is committed, they will not be reassigned.

Mr. Howlin

Obviously, emergencies can arise but are they traffic corps 100% of the time or for a specific time only?

Mr. McDowell

They are 100% traffic corps personnel. That is their function. I agree with Deputies in respect of results and phony results. The fact is that enforcement of the law has resulted in 50 fewer deaths on our roads.

Mr. Howlin

I am talking about sensible enforcement. If it is an issue of numbers, the Minister need only visit the Stillorgan bypass.

Mr. McDowell

We are not into Stakanovite things like that. On Thornton Hall, the next stage of the process is approval of a bidder. As Deputies opposite stated we have an extensive statutory process to go through. It is not that a written contract with a price at the end of it will be signed in the next few weeks. That cannot happen as the cost must first be considered and then approved. Also, the process requires that one person take on the design, build, finance and maintain aspects. For this to be done, I must inform the contractor of the legal hoops that must be followed.

Mr. J. O’Keeffe

How can the Minister enter into a binding contract when he or his successor will ultimately decide whether planning will be granted.

Mr. McDowell

It is clearly conditional on all steps being followed. A number of consortia took part in the evaluation system for selection as the preferred bidder. The bidder chosen will be announced in the near future. The contractor is aware of the requirement to meet the criteria set out in the contract documentation originally put out for tender and the need to go through the entire assessment and planning process provided for in the Act. All things being equal, the chosen bidder will be awarded the contract to design, build, finance and maintain the facility.

Mr. J. O’Keeffe

Is the Minister not in a conflict in that he will award the contract and will be required to make and present to the Dáil an independent judgment in respect of whether planning permission for the project should be granted?

Mr. McDowell

No, I am not. This is part of the PPP process. I would be in exactly the same position if I were Minister for Transport involved in the building of a motorway. I am driving the process in so far as I can from a ministerial point of view.

Mr. J. O’Keeffe

Is this not an outcome of the separate planning process the Minister is providing for in the Prisons Bill?

Mr. McDowell

No. We have chosen the planning process for the reasons I outlined. It is probably one of the most open processes in Europe. To have 166 Members of the Dáil and 60 Senators-----

Mr. Howlin

It is the process as opposed to the prison that will be open.

Mr. McDowell

Exactly.

Mr. Howlin

The Taoiseach said he wanted an unconfined prison so I was wondering about that.

Mr. McDowell

We have moved slightly further in respect of the criminal court complex in that the contract has been awarded to Babcock & Brown. Part IX of the planning Acts applies.

Mr. Howlin

Who is the preferred bidder?

Mr. McDowell

It is Babcock & Brown. Construction is due to commence at Parkgate Street during the second half of this year. It is a massive project. I invite Deputies to examine the drawings.

Mr. Howlin

What is taking place at Parkgate Street?

Mr. J. O’Keeffe

What type of money is involved?

Mr. McDowell

The criminal court complex is being built at Parkgate Street. It is near to the Department of Defence.

Mr. J. O’Keeffe

Does the Minister have a ballpark figure for the project?

Mr. McDowell

It will cost approximately €100 million. It is a substantial building and quite an exciting design.

Mr. Howlin

Will current office space be sold as a result?

Mr. McDowell

No. A great deal of the Four Courts will be transformed into a civil complex.

Mr. Howlin

The entire criminal complex will move to—

Mr. McDowell

All criminal business in Dublin will be located there.

Deputy Howlin asked about the Garda Ombudsman Commission. The ombudsman has sought 100 staff. Some 82 staff members have been assigned and discussions are ongoing with the Department of Finance and the ombudsman in respect of the remaining staff. I am anxious that it be resourced to the maximum possible extent. As Deputy Howlin stated, it is important that it does not commence business with growing arrears.

The commission will be entitled in certain circumstances to revisit historic cases and will use its independent judgment in that regard.

Mr. J. O’Keeffe

It will be a matter for the commission as to whether it revisits any case prior to 8 December.

Mr. McDowell

Yes.

Mr. McDowell

Transport arrangements are in place for the State pathologist who is assisted by two deputy State pathologists.

Mr. Howlin

What arrangements are in place?

Mr. McDowell

A car is provided for her.

Mr. Howlin

Is the car on call?

Mr. McDowell

Yes. I do not know whether it is a Garda vehicle but a contract is in place to take her from one location to another.

We are recruiting extra staff for the forensic science service and a new forensic science laboratory is being constructed.

Mr. Howlin

Where will it be located?

Mr. McDowell

Next to the Garda headquarters in the Phoenix Park. It will be located there for security reasons. We hope construction of the laboratory will commence soon.

Mr. Howlin

Why then is the Estimate unchanged? Approximately €6 million has been allocated to the forensic science service this year.

Mr. McDowell

I do not know how much will be spent this year. One does not usually pay when construction commences. Provision for construction of the new laboratory will be included in the OPW Estimate.

Mr. Howlin

I am asking about staffing.

Mr. McDowell

I do not know the answer to that question. I will communicate with the Deputy in that regard.

Increased funding is being provided this year for the witness protection programme. I make two points in respect of the programme. I have made clear to the Garda Commissioner that if he requests more money for the witness protection programme, I will go immediately to Government to get it for him. I could put €5 million or €10 million into that programme.

Mr. Howlin

It is an indicative figure.

Mr. McDowell

Ireland is a small society and although Deputies or I might think the real answer to gangland crime is to persuade people to come forward, give evidence and then disappear under the witness protection programme to Australia, Canada, England or Spain, very few people are in a position to do that.

Mr. J. O’Keeffe

It works in other countries.

Mr. McDowell

Yes, but they are bigger countries with different cultures.

Mr. J. O’Keeffe

It is the single biggest thing that has worked in other countries.

Mr. McDowell

I agree with the Deputy as does the Garda Commissioner. If he could get informants from within the gangland culture he would be the first to hunt them down and arrange for their protection.

Mr. J. O’Keeffe

It is not a question of money alone; it is a question of taking a statutory underpinning and transparent approach to it. That does not exist here.

Mr. McDowell

I believe there is enough statutory underpinning in this regard. I do not think statute is at issue.

Mr. J. O’Keeffe

They have it in other common law countries and it is working.

Mr. McDowell

The statute is not the missing ingredient. The issue is that most of these people do not want to emigrate. Ireland is not a sufficiently large country in which to remain under a false identity. Some people might be willing to emigrate but there is a reluctance to do so. We might say it is a pity, but that is the case. I have given examples of how strong the unwillingness to co-operate is. There are brave people who have come forward, not least, somebody in connection with a recent rape that had a gangland dimension to it and who, despite very considerable threats, persisted as a witness and did not want to emigrate.

Mr. J. O’Keeffe

I must differ from the Minister on that matter.

Mr. McDowell

If we had all the statutes and all the money, there is no queue of people who want to do this.

Mr. J. O’Keeffe

Openness and transparency are lacking in the system.

Mr. McDowell

I do not know how transparent witness protection can be, but if somebody wants to be an informant, every protection will be afforded by the State. The Commissioner is well aware that all resources are available to him. Putting up notices will not change the situation. The forensic science budget is up €1 million on last year's budget to cover the staffing issue.

In regard to policing, I do not want to become involved in argument about numbers. However, I would ask Deputies to appreciate that there is a two-year training process and at the end of one year recruits are attested and, although still in training, they are full members of the Garda Síochána. The passing-out parades I attend take place a year after those passing out have attained attested status in the force.

Mr. Howlin

They are accompanied by a full member of the Garda Síochána on the beat.

Mr. McDowell

Yes. They are still in training, but they are full members of the Garda in the sense that if they stop a member of the public and that person assaults them, they have assaulted a member of the Garda Síochána.

Mr. J. O’Keeffe

Like solicitors' apprentices.

Mr. McDowell

They are further along than that. Attested members of the Garda are entitled to work on cases. The fact that a sergeant keeps an eye on them does not mean they are not full members.

In regard to the two-year cycle, I have not compromised it. The two-year training process in Ireland compares markedly well with the system in countries right across the world. In most common law jurisdictions three to six months is the norm. We are way out there on the far end of the spectrum compared with most comparable states.

Mr. J. O’Keeffe

Without being mischievous, let me ask whether the Taoiseach consulted the Tánaiste before he went wild in regard to the figures he quoted at the weekend, along with all his other figures?

Mr. McDowell

When the Deputy uses the word "wise"—

Mr. J. O’Keeffe

I used the word "wild".

Mr. McDowell

The Deputy's party promised 16,000 police as well recently.

Mr. J. O’Keeffe

The jointly agreed figure is 15,000 for the next Government, with any increase thereafter to be recommended by the independent committee.

Mr. McDowell

The Taoiseach is right when he says we must keep going with the recruitment process.

Mr. J. O’Keeffe

The Taoiseach trumped the Tánaiste.

Mr. Howlin

There needs to be some rationale.

Mr. McDowell

He has not trumped me. I have my own strong views on this issue.

Mr. J. O’Keeffe

The Taoiseach went public on the figure of 15,000.

Mr. McDowell

That is what the Government agreed last December.

Mr. Howlin

The 15,000 will be recruited over three years. That is what the Minister said today.

Mr. McDowell

The numbers will continue to increase.

Mr. Howlin

There will be 16,000 over five years.

Mr. McDowell

It will probably be done over four years. We will not increase the rate of recruiting. We will keep the current increased recruiting going for longer. In regard to policing, when I came into office I was faced with an embargo. I secured an exemption from the embargo, which Charlie McCreevy urged us to impose after the last election, in order to carry out the then planned Garda expansion and bring the numbers up to 12,200. Given the recruitment rates at the time, it took 18 months to increase the numbers to 12,200 because we did not have larger classes. Looking across Ireland generally and talking to gardaí at every level, if we had not increased the number of gardaí in the way we have, we would have a crisis on our hands.

I have made a few decisions. One is to keep rural Garda stations open as they are at the moment and not to contract them. Management consultants advocated centralisation, but the effect of closing down Garda stations in rural areas in particular, even if they are open for only six hours a day, would be to surrender communities to lawlessness and send a clear signal that the State is contracting out of those areas.

Mr. J. O’Keeffe

It leaves those areas exposed.

Mr. McDowell

I decided, therefore, not to close Garda stations.

We have specialist units such as the Garda traffic corps, the Garda national drugs unit and CAB. We have the Garda National Immigration Bureau which has to be expanded dramatically. There are huge areas in a massive ring around Dublin where populations are going from village to town-size very rapidly. We need every single one of these extra gardaí. There is no point in pretending we do not.

Mr. Howlin

There is no argument from this side of the House on that.

Mr. McDowell

The Deputy suggested that his party will be advised by an independent authority on the issue. We need more gardaí.

Mr. Howlin

There needs to be a policing determination of that rather than a political determination.

Mr. McDowell

Every determination of resources is, ultimately, political. Nobody should cod themselves in regard to that any more than one could say hospitals should decide how many nurses are needed.

Mr. Howlin

We do that. An Bord Altranais makes recommendations.

Mr. McDowell

One does not normally allow a school to decide how many teachers it needs. That is not how the system operates. Having said that, another issue on which I have been very strong is that of civilianisation. Civilianisation will not be easily achieved. There is already an editorial complaining about it in the Garda Review. I do not dismiss the editorial. I sympathise with some of the points made in it. However, one does not do two years in Templemore to become an administrative assistant to a senior Garda officer or a press office employee. That is not the purpose of the training. It would be nonsense if the telephonists in St. Vincent’s Hospital were required to have a nursing degree. The same logic applies across the system. Since we invest so much in the training of gardaí—

Mr. Howlin

We agree with that, but why was it not done?

Mr. J. O’Keeffe

Why has it not been done? I have been raising the issue of the 15 gardaí in the press office for the past three years.

Mr. Howlin

The Minister has identified 500 such jobs since 2001, none of which has been civilianised. Talk is not good enough.

Mr. McDowell

That process is well advanced. The editorial in the Garda Review outlines exactly what the issues are. I recommend it for the Deputy’s perusal.

Mr. J. O’Keeffe

I read it. The editorial should have been written three years ago when the change could have been made. I am sure a garda who works as a press officer likes the job, but that is not what we pay him or her for.

Mr. McDowell

When I came into office there was a proposal in existence for the civilianisation of 500 jobs to be accomplished over 20 years.

Mr. Howlin

The Minister did not tell us that in the report. We were told that 500 jobs were identified.

Mr. McDowell

That is the situation I inherited. I am turning the QE2 around.

A number of other issues were raised. Deputy Howlin made the point that all domestic violence is criminal. There is no doubt about that. In New York recently I met Mr. Hynes, the District Attorney of Brooklyn. He has a particular interest in domestic violence, because of his family background. It is not as easy as one might think to say all domestic violence is criminal.

Mr. Howlin

The Minister just said that.

Mr. McDowell

One cannot simply say, "That is it".

Mr. Howlin

Of course not.

Mr. McDowell

There are instances where domestic violence has occurred, or is occurring, and where the parties to the marriage want the marriage to survive rather than end in a court case. What is important is that the victim of domestic violence is totally empowered and supported in making the choice appropriate for her; it is usually her.

Mr. Howlin

It is an extremely complicated issue. People can be totally bullied and intimidated—

Mr. McDowell

It is extremely complicated one way or the other.

Mr. Howlin

—and have their discernment withdrawn from them.

Mr. McDowell

That is true.

Mr. J. O’Keeffe

It is important that anyone who seeks the help of the criminal justice system should get it.

Mr. McDowell

That is the point. I found it interesting that in Brooklyn, New York, there is a centre to which victims of domestic violence can come and get neutral and supportive counselling, which regards what has happened as terribly wrong, before going to the police. Counsellors ask victims what outcome they seek and they can then make their own choices, with support programmes. If they have to move out of their home suddenly they are given support. If they do not wish to move out of their home they can make that choice also. It is important that victims of domestic violence, particularly women victims, are empowered to make choices they want to make and are happy making in the deepest core of their personalities.

Mr. Howlin

I ask the Minister to consult carefully with people who are operating in the front line of domestic violence in Ireland before he writes the report, or policy statement, to which he referred.

Mr. McDowell

I recently spent time with a domestic violence project in Deputy Howlin's constituency. I found them a remarkable group of people. As volunteers, they are doing great work. We hope to have a major think-in and conference on the subject.

Mr. Howlin

That is excellent.

Mr. McDowell

I hoped to do it soon but, with the pressure of elections, my Department officials tell me it is not possible.

Mr. J. O’Keeffe

The subject can fill the Minister's time when he is in opposition.

Mr. McDowell

When the people come to take a look at the slump coalition—

Mr. J. O’Keeffe

They are already looking at it and they are fed up with it and its performance in the past five years.

Mr. McDowell

Domestic violence will be an important issue for whoever sits in my seat after the election and it must be addressed. It is not an easy problem to which there are simple solutions. I was particularly impressed by the breadth of understanding evident in the south-eastern domestic violence group and its rational and reasonable support of victims. It gave real, and not merely brochure type, support. People need real support in those circumstances.

I have no doubt we will think up a better way to go through the Estimates on a value for money basis. I appreciate that for members of the committee to trawl through fine print for weeks on end may or may not be productive, even at the best of times and certainly not at present. Even in the first year of a new regime it would not be the most productive use of time. I do not know if the media are interested or if much political weight attaches to the very important function of seeking financial accountability from Departments.

Mr. J. O’Keeffe

Value for money is central to my thinking.

Mr. McDowell

Simply increasing a budget by a certain amount means relatively little if it does not give value for money.

Mr. J. O’Keeffe

It will be the hallmark of the next Government.

Mr. McDowell

It will.