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Select Committee on Legislation and Security díospóireacht -
Tuesday, 20 Jun 1995

Page 2

I welcome the Minister of State at the Department of Justice, Deputy Currie, on his first assignment to our committee, he and his officials are welcome. The business before us is the commencement of Committee Stage of the Criminal Law (Incest Proceedings) (No. 2) Bill, 1995, followed by a resumption of Committee Stage of the Transfer of Sentenced Persons Bill, 1995. The Criminal Law (Incest Proceedings) (No. 2) Bill is relatively short, but nevertheless extremely important, legislation. While not wishing in any way to curtail the debate, I am hopeful that we can deal with Committee Stage of this Bill as speedily as possible and proceed to the second item on our agenda, the Transfer of Sentenced Persons Bill, 1995.

I wish to advise Members that I do not intend to permit Second Stage speeches or repetition on either Bill. I have, as Members will be aware, given a fair degree of latitude on the Transfer of Sentenced Persons Bill. It is regrettable that Members who had not been engaged in the debate on an earlier Stage, come into Committee Stage and made Second Stage speeches. I will have to be fairly strict on that this afternoon and I ask Members for their co-operation. We have a fair amount of business to get through today as both Bills must be reported back to the House in plenary session within a given deadline. I am anxious that, given our other commitments, we complete Committee Stage of both Bills this afternoon.

Criminal Law (Incest Proceedings) (No. 2) Bill, 1995: Committee Stage.

The necessity for the Bill arises from the rulings on 1 and 17 February, 1995, of the Central Criminal Court and in particular the ruling that section 5 of the Punishment of Incest Act, 1908, precludes the revelation of the verdict and sentence, if any, in a case of incest.

Sections 1 to 5 agreed to.
NEW SECTION.

Amendments Nos. 1 and 2 are related and will be discussed together. Is that agreed? Agreed.

I move amendment No. 1:

In page 5, before section 6, to insert the following new section:

"6.—The principal Act is hereby amended by the substitution of the following section for section 3:

3.—In this Act——

(a) the expressions "brother" and "sister", respectively, include half-brother and half-sister, and

(b) the expressions "brother", "sister", "son", "daughter", "father" and "mother", respectively, include step-brother, step-sister, step-son, step-daughter, step-father and step-mother.".

The purpose of the Bill is to deal with a particular finite problem in relation to the reporting and revelation of the verdict and sentence in an incest case. That is the predominant reason the Bill is open to amendment. The Bill was substantially amended in the Seanad by good contributions from all sides of the House but it has come to my attention that there is another loophole in the original Punishment of Incest Act, 1908, in relation to the position of children who have been adopted and step-children. It is appropriate to close that loophole now since the Bill can be amended.

The Punishment of Incest Act, 1908, was passed when there was no legal provision for adoption meaning there is a major omission from its provisions. Adopted children whose fathers may abuse them are not regarded as victims of incest for purposes, of prosecution even though, in most cases, they have lived with the adopted father as a member of his family since birth. The violation of an adopted child is just as serious as the violation of a child natural to the father. If we are dealing with incest and its impact on the violation of a specific and special trust, which is fatherhood, we should look at the fact that, under the existing 1908 Act, there is no provision for a prosecution to be taken against a father for the abuse of an adopted child. They are treated in law as if they had been sexually assaulted by a stranger. For the purpose of the crime of incest, adoptees are still regarded as nobody's children. I will give an example of the type of thing that might happen and the potential enormity of the omission, not only for adoptees, but also for step-children. If divorce is introduced a whole range of step-children will potentially need the protection of incest legislation. However, for the moment we can deal with adoptees.

It is always an offence to have sexual intercourse with a girl below the age of 17. However, where a father has sexual intercourse with his adopted daughter aged 17, he does not commit a criminal offence unless he rapes her. There is an exclusion there because incest does not recognise adoptive relationships. If the father has managed to obtain the consent of his 17 year old adopted daughter to the act of sexual intercourse, whether through fear or persuasion which is characteristic of child abuse in a parental authority sense, or through a cycle of abuse that has gone on over many years, the law does not regard him as having committed a crime, even though most right thinking people will agree that we should be unequivocal in our condemnation of such an act.

This is an opportunity for the Minister to consider this loophole in relation to incest. It is equally wrong that a child can be violated by her father and have the law treat it in the same way as it would the violation of a stranger. We have discussed at great length the nature of incest. Society's condemnation of it is based on the fact that it is an abuse of a very special position of trust which exists between a father and child. I consider sexual intercourse between a father and his adopted child to be incest and it should be included in law as such.

Many drafting difficulties were experienced when I tried to draft two new amendments to cover both adoptees and step-children. Members are aware that the Status of Children Act, 1987 was a major legislative reform. One of the purposes of this Act was to ensure that adopted children were treated as the children of their adoptive parents just as if they had been born to them. However, its provisions only apply to statutes which were passed after 1987, so the Status of Children Act does not refer back to the 1908 Act.

This amendment is an attempt to apply the provisions of the Status of Children Act to the 1908 Act. It is a great pity that this omission was not noticed in 1987 when an opportunity could have been taken to apply the provisions of the Status of Children Act, 1987 to the Punishment of Incest Act, 1908. The effect of it is clearly that adopted children do not benefit from the provisions of the 1987 Act in the case of incest. It is appropriate when we amend the Bill, that this loophole is closed or that we at least hear some justification from the Minister why it is not appropriate now.

This is being done by way of a second amendment which simply provides that in introducing any relationship for the purposes of Punishment of Incest Act, 1908, the provisions of section 3 of the Status of Children Act 1987 shall apply unless the contrary intention appears. We went through the hoops trying to draft an amendment which would apply the benefits of the 1987 Act to the 1908 Act and this is the simplest, neatest and most appropriate way of bringing adoptive children under the 1908 Act, by putting them on an equal footing with children born into the family concerned.

Section 3 of the 1987 Act is one of its key provisions. It does two things. It ensures that adopted children are to be treated as the children of their adopters, and that every other family relationship is to be treated accordingly. It also provides that illegitimate children are to be treated as the children of their parents. By applying section 3 of the 1987 Act to the Punishment of Incest Act, 1908, the House would effect an important far-reaching and overdue reform. It would ensure that adopted children are given the protection the law ought to give them.

Step-daughters, step-brothers and step-sisters are excluded from the incest legislation of 1908. Where sexual intercourse takes place between, say a step-father and a step-daughter, this is not regarded as incest. It is imperative when family relationships are growing more complex, with divorce on our doorstep, a clear message goes out that interfamily abuse is unacceptable in our society, however that family is constituted.

The extension of this protection will become all the more important if the constitutional referendum on divorce is carried. In considering how to table an amendment to the 1908 Act, which would extend the provisions of that Act to step-families, I considered the provisions of section 3 of the 1908 Act. This section is effectively an interpretative provision. It provides that the terms "brother" and "sister" include "half brother" and "half sister". It provides that incest is an offence, whether or not the relationship between the parties to the act of incest is based on marriage or not. In other words, it covers non-marital children, which is important in terms of incest.

The Minister for Equality and Law Reform is currently seeking to extend domestic violence legislation to cover non-marital situations. It is important in the context of incest and child abuse that non-marital children are included. One of the effects of applying the provisions of section 3 of the Status of Children Act, 1987, to the Punishment of Incest Act was to extend the protection of the latter Act to Illegitimate children. The reference in section 3 of the 1908 Act to relationships which are not based on marriage becomes redundant.

This is very complex and I spent a great deal of time trying to draft an amendment which would be appropriate and neat and not over wieldy. The explanation of it is necessarily complicated because we are trying to apply the provisions of the 1987 Act to the 1908 Act and to include adoptees and step-children. Amendment No. 1 seeks to redraft section 3 of the 1908 Act to update it to include step-children and to remove the redundant reference to non-marital relationships which are covered by the 1987 Act. This sounds complicated but, to put it in an ordinary person's language, it would appear from our study of the Punishment of Incest Act, 1908, that at present adopted children are not given the protection which other children have in relation to the prosecution of incest offences.

The Minister may not be in a position now to come back with his Department's advice on this but I urge him to request his officials to look into this loophole, which excludes adoptive children and step-children from the provisions of the Incest Act. I look forward to the Minister's contribution.

I fully support the concept that the provisions of the Incest Act should apply to adoptive and step-children. I do not think the issue of a blood relationship should be a bar to the application of the Act. A person who is an adoptive father or has remarried has as much obligation to these children as he has to his own blood children. I do not think anybody doubts this. The status of the relationship between the father and the children is fiduciary and paternal and there is an extremely close bond between them. That bond should not be lessened in any way by the fact that the children are not of the father's blood. In those circumstances, Deputy O'Donnell has done a service to the committee and the Bill. The Bill has been amended a considerable number of times since its introduction in the Seanad as a result of amendments moved by Fianna Fáil and the Progressive Democrats. I support the amendment.

Deputies will appreciate that, as Minister responsible for child care, I have a particular interest in the issues Deputy O'Donnell and Deputy O'Donoghue raised. As I indicated inside and outside the House, I am as anxious as anyone that every effort must be made to protect children from sexual abuse and to ensure that, where such abuse takes place, it is dealt with in a manner which reflects its serious nature and the harm and distress caused to children. Deputy O'Donnell asked for a clear message and this is the clear message I am giving. I congratulate Deputy O'Donnell for the thought and preparation she put into these amendments.

As she said, it is a complex matter. She has sought to extend the scope of the Punishment of Incest Act, 1908, which is based on blood relationships. She is specifically proposing that the prohibitions and sanctions of the 1908 Act should apply in the case of very close step-relatives and within adoptive families. While I have no difficulty in principle with the Deputy's proposals, they give rise to problems in a number of respects.

In amendment No. 1 the Deputy is suggesting that for the purposes of the Punishment of Incest Act, 1908, the expressions "brother", "sister", "son", "daughter", "father" and "mother" should be taken to include "step-brother", "step-sister", "step-son", "step-daughter", "step-father" and "step-mother". Deputies may or may not be aware that under our marriage laws it is permissible for step-brothers to marry step-sisters provided that they do not share a common parent. I understand that for obvious reasons this is rare but it has happened. Deputies will appreciate that in these circumstances I could not accept an amendment which, if it were enacted into law, would have as one of its consequences that sexual intercourse between a step-brother and a step-sister would become a criminal offence.

Amendment No. 1 would require to be supplemented by definitions of the terms "step-brother", "step-sister", "step-son", "step-daughter", "step-father" and "step-mother". This would be necessary because these terms are not defined in any statue or recognised by common law.

Amendment No. 2 provides that in determining any relationship under the Punishment of Incest Act, 1908, the provision of section 3 of the Status of Children Act, 1987, shall apply. One of the effects of the amendment is that adoptive families will be brought within the scope of the 1908 Act. As in the case of amendment No. 1, this is an aspect which could give rise to difficulties in terms of our legislation on marriage.

In his book on family law, Deputy Shatter considers the application of the prohibited degrees of marriage to persons who are related by or through adoption. One of his conclusions is that it is doubtful that there is any legal obstacle to the marriage of an adoptive child and that child's adoptive brother or sister. While I have not been able to ascertain whether such a marriage has taken place in the State or between persons who may have married abroad and moved here, I cannot rule out the possibility that what is contained in the amendment would conflict with a valid marriage. This is a very serious issue and is not one which can be dismissed on the basis that it has not arisen to date.

In the context of this amendment, I am fully aware that it is expressed to apply "unless the contrary intention appears". For my part, I am not satisfied that the wording the Deputy has used, and for which no guidance is provided, is sufficient to overcome the problem to which I referred. I am sure all Deputies would agree it is essential, particularly in relation to criminal matters, that our legislation should be as clear as possible. In the case of the amendment, this is not the case.

For the reasons I have given, I cannot accept the Deputy's amendments. As she is aware, I have considerable sympathy for the proposals she has put forward. Regrettably, I believe they would have unacceptable consequences for other areas of our law. I propose, however, to ask the Minister for Justice to address those specific concerns in the discussion papers she has promised to circulate regarding certain aspects of sexual offences legislation. I have no doubt that the Minister will respond positively to that request. Accordingly, I hope the Deputy can accept the commitment I have given on these matters and that she will not press the amendments.

I accept the wording of my amendments may not be as expert as it might be given the qualifications and limitations of the Opposition in terms of drafting amendments. I am not satisfied with the reasons or justifications given by the Minister for rejecting the principle of my amendment. I do not accept that it is appropriate to leave this to a discussion document in the general area of child sexual abuse. Such a review is long overdue and the Law Reform Commission made recommendations on this recently. Some of its recommendations have not been taken on board such as the recommendation that there should be a new offence of child sexual abuse, which may or may not replace incest, and the defilement of young girls. There needs to be consolidation in this area.

This Bill can be amended and it may well be within the capacity of the Department of Justice to put together the correct wording or provision. It is not beyond the capability of the Department and its draftspersons to come up with a suitable formula which would deal with the parental aspect of adoptees as distinct from the sibling relationships which they might have with adoptive brothers and sisters. I take the Minister's point that there is a complication. If it is legal for an adopted child to have sex with an adoptive brother or sister, I see the difficulties in extending incest prohibitions.

In terms of public policy of protecting adoptive children in the care of fathers, we could deal with the incestuous relationship which may apply between a father and an adoptive child. I accept the difficulty which the Minister pointed out, but he has focused on the fact that it is legal to have sexual relationship between an adoptive child and a child from the family. There is a public policy imperative that we look at the protection of adoptive children.

This was attempted in the 1987 Act, but it excluded incest. I do not know whether it was thought through when the 1987 Act was going through the House, which tried to protect adopted children and non-marital children and to equalise the rights of those children. Will the Minister indicate whether the Department of Justice will look at this before Report Stage to see if a formula of words can be found to introduce this protection to adoptees? I accept the difficulties which the Minister raised but I do not believe they are insurmountable in terms of public policy on incest.

In trying to be all embracing, Deputy O'Donnell entered into a legislative minefield. However, it does not exclude the fact that the intention and the principle which she is trying to legislate for is proper and right. There is no reason why, as a matter of public policy, the father of an adopted child should be excluded from the Punishment of Incest Act. Obviously, a young girl in her formative years will develop a close relationship with her father. If the father is a deviant, it is possible for him to use the relationship with his daughter to practice deviancy. Obviously, he would be operating from a position of trust. That trust can be breached quite easily.

I agree with Deputy O'Donnell that the Minister should see if his Department can come up with appropriate wording which would address such a situation. It is important that we take this opportunity to do so. We all know how difficult it is to bring legislation to the House and that there can be interminable delays. The opportunity now exists for the Minister and the Government to address the matter. I ask the Minister of State to discuss the matter with the Minister for Justice to see if the Department can come up with suitable wording to cover the type of situation Deputy O'Donnell mentioned, in respect of which I agree with her.

(Carlow-Kilkenny):When I listen to what appears to be a reasonable case, in this instance presented by Deputy O’Donnell, originally in non-layman’s language but later in layman’s language, I am always amazed by the amount of knowledge from ministerial advisers in terms of examples which can refute what has been put. I accept that what Deputy O’Donnell said will arise more often than step-children marrying one another or a step-mother marrying a step-son. I see the difficulty in this. It is amazing how legal definitions can prevent and cause problems.

I, too, ask the Minister if something can be done. I accept that step-children should be protected. The idea behind it is good, but what the Minister said also makes sense? I admit that I would not have thought about this. It is difficult to introduce in legislation and I hope the Minister will get further advice and deal with the problem.

The Minister has no problem going back to the Minister for Justice to ask her to look at this again. She has proven time and time again in the course of the discussion on this Bill in the Seanad and in the Dáil that she is flexible in relation to it. I should mention that this Bill is before us for a specific purpose. It arose from particular circumstances, which are likely to arise again in the near future. I emphasise that there is a sense of urgency about getting this Bill on to the Statute Book.

If I am right about possible difficulties as regards marriage, then to pass these amendments would be a serious matter. The points I made in relation to marriage have not been disputed and we have a serious problem in that regard. While I am prepared to ask the Minister to look at points made by the two Deputies, there is a serious problem and a question of urgency. While I cannot say too much about that, I want to underline the urgent need to pass this measure.

The Minister said that the purpose of the Bill is clear and it is urgent. However, a lacuna has been discovered in the Bill and it may be technically difficult to resolve. It merits consideration now. The committee will meet as urgently as the Minister requires. Report Stage will be dealt with in the Dáil so obviously it will have to be looked at quickly if the Bill is to return there in this session. There is an onus on us as public representatives to ensure that not only adopted girls are protected, but also adopted boys, particularly now that the situation has been made so clear. The Minister should take the time to get it done while there is the opportunity. If it proves to be too difficult he can report back to that effect and it can be dealt with separately. It should be possible to find a solution to this within a short timescale and have it remedied on Report Stage. The Minister will find that the committee and the House will be as helpful as possible.

This Bill was initially introduced as a Private Members' Bill by Fianna Fáil and the Progressive Democrats so we support it. It has been substantially amended through the cooperation of the Minister with the Opposition in the Seanad. We are anxious to have the Bill on the Statute Book as soon as possible because, as the Minister indicated, there are cases going through the courts now which are not being reported adequately.

The focus of the Bill is to deal with the specific problem with regard to reporting such cases. However, a loophole has been brought to my attention and I have spent a couple of days trying to draft amendments which, without causing too much hassle, would amend the law to cover adoptees and step-children. Although we should be anxious to put this Bill on the Statute Book, it would be unforgivably careless if the Department of Justice and the Minister did not address this matter in great detail before Report Stage. There is always a hard case and it might yet haunt us if we do not close this loophole to ensure the protection of adoptive children in relation to child abuse.

Can the Minister of State confirm that he will report back to his Department officials and to the Minister that this has received the committee's support in principle and that if a formula of words can be drafted he will return on Report Stage with an amendment to deal with this obvious loophole in the 1908 Act?

That is a strong message from the committee, Minister.

I have no problem with taking it back for further examination. However, I say that in the context of the difficulties to which I have already referred. Deputy O'Donnell referred to the great difficulty she had, despite her legal training and expertise in drafting this.

I do not have civil servants to help me.

I am prepared to accede to that request. However, I do so in the context I mentioned.

I will withdraw the amendment. I will submit it again on Report Stage if it is not dealt with by the Minister.

Deputy Kemmy wishes to make a brief contribution although the amendment will be withdrawn.

There is no point in it being exclusive if it can be inclusive. I have sympathy for the point made by Deputy O'Donnell. Difficulties in this area have arisen in the past about property, land and money and they were overcome. There is no point in reinventing the wheel, as it were. If other countries have dealt with this problem in the way the Deputy outlined I can sympathise with her point. The thrust of the Bill is to avoid the exploitation of people, regardless of whether they are young or not so young, brothers or step-brothers, sisters or step-sisters. We have great sympathy with the spirit of these amendments and we would like them included in the Bill. I am speaking on behalf of my party.

The Minister has been given an all-party message.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn

I move amendment No. 2:

In page 5, before section 6, to insert the following new section:

".6—In deducing any relationship for the purposes of the Act of 1908, the provisions of section 3 of the Status of Children Act, shall apply unless the contrary intention appears.".

I will withdraw this amendment on the basis that the Minister will look at it. The amendment applies to adoptees and non-marital children. The two amendments are linked although this amendment could be dealt with alone. I gather the Minister will take both amendments back to the Department of Justice to see what can be done.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

I move amendment No. 3:

In page 5, before section 6, to insert the following section:

"6.— The provisions of sections 2, 3 and 4 of this Act shall apply to any criminal proceedings for an offence under section 1 or 2 of the Criminal Law Amendment Act, 1935.".

This amendment is broadly similar to amendment No. 4. Could the two amendments be discussed together?

Is it agreed that the committee deal with amendments Nos. 3 and 4 together? Agreed.

This is an attempt to revisit an anomaly which was pointed out in the Seanad by Senator Honan. Sections 1 and 2 of the Criminal Law Amendment Act, 1935 criminalise the unlawful carnal knowledge of girls. It is known as the defilement of young girls. The 1935 Act is separate from the other statutes dealing, with rape and other sexual offences. For this reason the many detailed provisions contained in the Criminal Law (Rape) Acts of 1981 and 1990, which regulate the trial of rape and sexual offences, do not apply to prosecutions for defilement of young girls even though these sections are regularly used in the prosecution of child abuse cases. Deputies will remember that the X case was prosecuted under that Act.

The most disturbing consequence of this oversight is that where men charged with defiling under-age girls under the 1935 Act are brought to trial, under the 1935 Act their victims — young girls such as Miss X — have no guarantee of anonymity such as is extended to the victims of rape and sexual assault under section 7 of the Criminal Law (Rape) Act, 1981. This was pointed out by Senator Honan in the Seanad. She tabled amendments which would have eliminated this loophole but the Minister declined to accept them and indicated that it was her intention to review the area. She accepted it was a difficulty and said that she intended to review it.

The Minister did not indicate on Second Stage in the Dáil that this review was under way. She does not appear to have any plans to introduce a reforming, consolidating statute of the type required and which would encompass all law in relation to sexual offences. There is no promise in the legislative programme that the Act of 1935 or the law on sexual offences generally will be reformed. In the absence of firm proposals by the Government to deal with the exclusion of the anonymity protection, which is given to the ordinary rape victims, applying to the defilement of young girls, which is the legislation that was used to prosecute the man in the X case, we are revisiting this matter on Committee Stage in the Dáil. The Minister has not given a satisfactory indication that she intends to close this loophole.

Amendment No. 2 was section 2 of the Fianna Fáil Bill dealing with reporting criminal incest proceedings. It approaches the problem from a different angle from that of Deputy O'Donnell.

Deputy O'Donnell proposes that sections 1 and 2 of the Criminal Law Amendment Act, 1935, dealing with unlawful carnal knowledge, would be covered by sections 2, 3 and 4 of this Bill. We are saying that one could apply the Criminal Law (Rape) Act, 1981, as amended by the 1990 Act to ensure that where there was unlawful carnal knowledge of a girl under the age of 15, which is a felony, or a girl between the ages of 15 and 17, which is a misdemeanour, there would be a prohibition on reporting the victim's name and address. At present the law is quite clear — there is no prohibition on the reportage of a case of unlawful carnal knowledge. A simple amendment of the type set out here should be accepted. In fairness to the press, in cases of unlawful carnal knowledge it never reports the name and address of the victim. I am sure this honourable tradition will continue. Nevertheless it is possible at some time in the future for some publication to decide to depart from that time honoured path and to publish the names and addresses of the victims of unlawful carnal knowledge, thereby identifying the individual concerned.

Deputies will recall that the question of extending the scope of sections 2, 3 and 4 of the Bill to cases of unlawful carnal knowledge was raised in the House on Second Stage and it had been raised earlier in the Seanad. The matter was brought to the Minister's attention and she confirmed that in her view it was appropriate that the issue should be left for consideration in the context of the discussion paper she will circulate as quickly as possible after the Bill is enacted. In that connection, Deputies will be aware that the same very urgent considerations that operate with regard to the passage of the Bill, in so far as it applies to incest proceedings, do not apply in the case of the offences of unlawful carnal knowledge of a girl under 15 or 17 years of age.

Turning to the amendments in the names of Deputy O'Donnell and Deputy O'Donoghue, I have been given professional drafting advice to the effect that it would not be appropriate simply to seek to extend the provisions of the Bill in the way the Deputies have proposed. I appreciate the concerns they have raised, but I hope they will understand that, rather than hold up the passage of the Bill by seeking to reformulate her proposal, the Minister would wish to proceed to its enactment at the earliest possible date. For that reason I regret I am not in a position to accept the amendment. I can confirm that the matter will be considered with regard to the Minister's discussion paper which she will circulate as quickly as possible after the Bill is enacted.

I am rather surprised at the reply by the Minister for State. The Minister for Justice had no difficulty in accepting, for example, sections 3 and 4 of the Bill drafted by Fianna Fáil which would have led to the stage where one could again publish details of the evidence. If the Minister's original Bill had stood, the details of the evidence in cases such as this could not have been reported by the media. I am satisfied that section 2 of the Bill drafted by Fianna Fáil, as reproduced in amendment No. 4, is in order, and I say this with due respect to the advice given by those concerned.

It is of considerable importance that cases of unlawful carnal knowledge have the same reporting restrictions as cases of rape. This is what I am seeking to achieve. It is a reasonable amendment. If some of the wording is not correct I appeal to the Minister to ask her officials to change it where necessary. However, it is extraordinary that sections 3 and 4 of the Bill drafted by Fianna Fáil were accepted, virtually ver- batim, by the Department of Justice. If those provisions had not been published by Fianna Fáil the situation would now be that while the punishment and the nature of the charge could be published, the details of the evidence could not. It is, therefore, contradictory that this amendment is rejected and I ask the Minister to reconsider it.

The points made by the two Opposition parties are reasonable. The Minister has had a considerable length of time to consider the requirement that the provisions of the Bill be extended to include cases of the defilement of young girls. Unlike the earlier amendments which I proposed, there has not perhaps been adequate opportunity for the Department to consider a possible formula of words to accommodate the concerns that I have raised with regard to adopted children and step-mothers. In the present case I get the impression that the Minister is not for turning on this specific issue because it has been debated at length in the House. We tried our best to catch the Minister's attention with regard to this aspect. I do not propose to delay the committee any further on this issue as it has been debated in the Seanad, in the Dáil, when I raised it in my speech on Second Stage, and in this committee by way of amendments in the name of both Opposition Deputies. It would appear that the Minister has made up her mind in this issue. I will not be pressing the amendment.

Take the case of somebody who is famous in the world of theatre or wherever. It transpires that this individual had been defiled some years earlier. The present position is that it would be possible for some lewd publications to print that the individual had been defiled in her younger years, when she was under the age of 17 or 15 years. That is not right. The issue is far too serious and important to be brushed under the carpet. This amendment is legitimate in that it seeks to protect young girls who are defiled under 15 or 17 years of age by preventing the publication of their names. It should be addressed seriously. I believe amendment No. 4 is the correct way to proceed but I am prepared to consider any reasonable amendment from the Minister. However, I am not prepared to accept the Minister's repeated assertion that she will not, under any circumstances, consider this amendment just because the Bill must be enacted immediately. That is not a good enough excuse with regard to a matter of this importance.

I am sure Deputy O'Donoghue is living in the age of equality. Why, therefore, is there no reference in amendment No. 4 to the defence of boys who are sexually molested? Can cases be reported where boys are sexually molested and interfered with? Consideration is focused on carnal knowledge of girls under 15 years of age and between the ages of 15 and 17 years. What protection do boys have or are we leaving them to the real wolves of the world?

I welcome the fact that Deputy O'Donnell is not pressing the amendment. I would not like the idea to circulate that the Minister has not given serious consideration to this matter. She has done so. There is a case to be made in this instance. Indeed, Deputy O'Donoghue made the case in respect of a hypothetical well known individual. The case he made may or may not be a good one, but it is not for discussion on the Bill. It is for the discussion paper that the Minister has promised without delay. The Deputy will then have a chance to make his point when it is considered.

The effect of Deputy O'Donoghue's amendment goes considerably beyond the question of the reporting arrangements that should apply in the case of sexual offences. This is because certain specific consequences follow from the designation of an offence as a rape offence, for the purpose of the rape Acts. Section 10 of the Criminal Law Rape (Amendment) Act, 1990, for example, provides that a person who is indicted for a rape offence shall be tried by the Central Criminal Court. I know the Minister before she could agree to an amendment along the lines proposed by the Deputy would wish to have sufficient time to assess all the relevant implications. This will inevitably take time and there is particular urgency attached to having the Bill enacted as quickly as possible. I cannot emphasise that enough.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Section 6 agreed to.
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