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Select Committee on Legislation and Security díospóireacht -
Tuesday, 30 Jan 1996

SECTION 3.

I move amendment No. 2:

In page 5, subsection (2) (a) (v), line 39, before "and" to insert "including the right to challenge a refusal of the Minister pursuant to section 4 (2) or section 24 (3) to issue a travel document, or a decision of the Minister pursuant to section 18 (3), (4) and (5), or the revocation of a declaration pursuant to section 21,".

This amendment proposes to remove a possible ambiguity or oversight. Subsection 2 (a) (v) gives a refugee, in relation to whom a declaration is in force, access to the courts in like manner and to the like extent in all respects as an Irish citizen. However, an Irish citizen would never be in a position of applying for or being refused a travel document within the meaning of section 4 or section 24 and so would not require access to the courts in this context. The same applies to a refugee whose family is refused permission to enter pursuant to section 18 (3), (4) and (5).

The purpose of the amendment is to clarify a possible ambiguity. The section seeks to extend rights of access to the courts similar to those of an Irish citizen but since an Irish citizen would never be in the position of applying for or being refused a travel document, it seems necessary specifically to extend the section. It is a confusing section which needs to be clarified, which is the purpose of the amendment. I am not being pernickety, this is a valid point about ambiguity in the section and I ask the Minister to comment.

The effect of amendment No. 2 is to give a right under the legislation to challenge the decisions of the Minister or Minister of State under section 4 (2), section 24 (3), section 18 (3), (4) and (5) or section 21. It is already clear that refugees can have access to Irish courts but so that no ambiguity can exist, the provision of section 2 (2) (a) (v) puts it beyond doubt by stating refugees have the same rights of access to courts as Irish citizens. An Irish citizen can apply to the courts to have the decision of any Minister made under any Act or made administratively reviewed judicially and it is up to the courts to decide whether to grant the review.

The amendment is not only unnecessary, it could create the presumption that refugees are somehow not entitled to access to the courts in the same way as Irish citizens. If this specific right is spelled out, it could accordingly defeat the purpose of this provision, which is to make clear that in relation to access to the courts, the refugee must be treated in a like manner to Irish citizens. I am satisfied the amendment is unnecessary and ambiguous and I cannot accept it.

I know of two situations which did not result in court actions but where people were restricted in their right to leave the State. They were both political activists many years ago when times were different. It, therefore, happened in the past and although I do not think either of those people applied to the courts they might have had occasion to do so.

The Minister's explanation is fine. I was also worried about this section, from the viewpoints of both the asylum seeker and the Minister, in that too much residual power seemed to be held by the Minister. If a Minister did not have the wherewithal or the time to study individual cases in the necessary depth or with the necessary incisive knowledge, he or she might come to a wrong decision without having recourse to the courts. However, I fully accept the Minister's explanation and it is a wise course because having the residual power vested in any one person would be damaging both to the Minister and to the people we hope to facilitate.

In those circumstances will the refugee have access to free legal aid? It would have to be available immediately but that is hard to get at present as an Irish citizen and if the refugee only has the same rights he might wait a long time before receiving legal aid.

The refugee would have the same rights as an Irish citizen because it is the thrust of the legislation that either the asylum seeker or the refugee, when granted a declaration, has the same access to our social welfare services, for instance. We will later discuss legal aid and assistance for asylum seekers but a person with refugee status has the same rights as an Irish citizen to legal aid, just as an applicant has the same entitlement to apply for social welfare, education, health or other benefits. The thrust of the document is to put them on the same footing as Irish citizens in relation to rights.

Is the immediacy or urgency covered?

Again, it is on the same basis as for an Irish citizen so it will be as quick as for them.

As slow as for the rest of us.

I would like to say legal aid is always granted rapidly but I am not sure I could honestly stand over that statement, so I say that it will be on the same basis as for Irish citizens.

It is a matter you can refer to later, Deputy Woods.

I withdraw the amendment, given the Minister's clarification.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Section 3 agreed to.
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