Amendment No. 18 is consequential on amendment No. 20 so they can be taken together by agreement.
SECTION 4.
I move amendment No. 18:
In page 7, line 40, after "application," to insert "but subject to subsection (2),".
In my opening speech on the Bill in Dáil Éireann I indicated it was my intention that the charter of Trinity College be amended not by this Bill but by a private Bill sponsored by that college in a manner consistent with the provisions of this Bill. In adopting this approach, I have had regard to the views of the college and of Senators from all parties when my position paper on university legislation was debated in the Seanad last year.
Trinity College is unique among our university institutions in owing its corporate existence exclusively to a charter. All other institutions rely to a greater or lesser degree on public Acts. This status is one which the university is anxious to preserve so amendments Nos 18 and 20, which I propose to the section, ensure that the provisions is sections 14 (1) to (6) inclusive, 8 (6), 19, 20, 28 and 29 which would have amended the statutes of Trinity College, will not so amend them provided that a private Act sponsored by the college in a manner consistent with the provisions is passed within three years. If such a private Act is not passed the Minister may make an order ensuring that all the provisions of this Bill apply to Trinity.
I consider that a three year period to allow such an Act to pass is reasonable. As members are aware, the process of consideration of a private Act is never simple and can be time consuming. At the end of the period, all the principles underlying this Bill will apply to the college.
This amendment gives me cause for concern. Is the Minister indicating that, for three years, the Bill will not apply to Trinity College in respect of the sections dealing with governing body composition, etc., in other words, the Bill will not apply to Trinity until such time as it amends its charter, which it will do by private Act? After three years the Minister may bring the college under all sections of the Bill.
Was there another way to deal with Trinity? This has been going on for two years and there have been numerous debates in the college — the Minister participated in one of them. For a long time there appeared to be no understanding of the tradition and history of Trinity. The college has operated successfully for many years and enjoys an excellent international reputation. Why was there a view within the State that we had to impose conditions on Trinity relating to its governance? Some aspects of its practice may not conform to other universities but it has made innovations which others could take on board, such as the board of visitors which we discussed.
However, given all our discussion on the Bill, it is fundamentally wrong that one college is put into a legislative limbo in that it will not be covered under the Bill for at least three years and possibly never will. Why does the Minister not admit defeat and acknowledge that the Trinity experience has been successful? Has there been agreement on external representation on the governing body, which is more limited than for other universities? Has there been agreement in terms of the external representation on the governing body? It is far more limited than other universities. Indications from the college suggest that it has great difficulty amending the charter.
The Deputy asked if there was another way of dealing with Trinity College after we had a discussion on its unique age, tradition and standing. I acknowledge it is unique. It owes its corporate existence exclusively to a charter. As the Deputy rightly said, there has been a great deal of discussion on how modernising legislation could encompass Trinity College while acknowledging its traditions in a way which will not make all universities the same.
The proposal in the private Members' Bill came from Trinity College. It wanted to be part of this but wanted to be the leading player. When I say three years I am giving the outside limit. There is every indication, given the goodwill enjoyed by Trinity not just here but internationally that the outside limit will not be reached. It is probably possible to do this within a calendar year.
I will not impose a guillotine on the private Bill, but within the time span suggested to me three years is reasonable. It only applies to some sections of the Bill. Rather than the decision being imposed, Trinity College made the decision to come under the umbrella of this legislation. I urge Deputies to accept it as a reasonable way to allow this unique college to resolve the problem while allowing it retain its autonomy. Its decision will make it party to the universities as a corporate body.
The proposal is reasonable but it did not emanate from me, nor does Trinity College perceive it as a suggestion coming from me. Trinity College has taken it upon itself to amend its charter by way of a private Bill. Three years has been suggested as a reasonable time, but if this is not done within three years, the Minister will make an order ensuring all the provisions of the Bill apply to Trinity. The Houses of the Oireachtas are allowing Trinity to deal with this in accordance with its charter as an independent college.
The Minister has made the concessions to Trinity College for which it looked. There was a change of mind in relation to the Bill and this is a significant amendment to the legislation as originally published. Three years is a reasonable period. Does the Minister know if the private Bill has been initiated?
It is expected the Bill will be ready for introduction this autumn. This is not the beginning of the process. The details of the process have been worked out and it is expected to be introduced then. It might be useful for us to have a note on the process of a private Bill.
Is the onus on Trinity to produce the Bill?
Yes, one which is consistent with this legislation.
I welcome this because I did not want to impose new conditions on Trinity College. Diversity is important in university life and success, where it occurs, should be celebrated. I was worried the State would become too interventionist in terms of our universities. I am glad we have moved from the position paper and the Bill, as originally published. It appears that even after three years, a Minister may take a decision not to impose an order to bring Trinity College under the provisions of the Bill. It would be open to a future Minister to leave things as they are. There is hope for Trinity College.
We have taken an important decision which has been welcomed.
Trinity College may escape the clutches of the State.
The Deputy has already waxed eloquent. I am confident that by going down this road, we will recognise the uniqueness, autonomy and charter of Trinity College. I am confident that this will not take three years.
Did the Minister do this with one eye on the Seanad?
Far be it for me to remind the Deputy that I spoke about recognition of the uniqueness of Trinity College from the beginning. It has a charter.
They all have charters.
It is an important day for Trinity College that we can move forward with the Universities Bill while being flexible enough to see that all universities are not the same and that Trinity College and other institutions are unique.
Amendment agreed to.
I move amendment No. 19:
In page 7, between lines 43 and 44, to insert the following:
"(c) Dublin Institute of Technology,".
Amendment put and declared lost.
I move amendment No. 20:
In page 8, between lines 3 and 4, to insert the following subsections:
"(2) Sections 14 (1) to (6), 18(6), 19, 20, 28 and29 shall not apply to or in relation to Trinity College unless the Minister, by order made not earlier than three years after the commencement of Part III, declares that those provisions apply, in which case they shall apply as if a reference to the commencement of Part III were a reference to the date on which the order came into operation.
(3) The Minister shall not make an order under subsection (2) if, within the period of three years referred to in that subsection a Private Act is passed by the Oireachtas amending, in a manner consistent with the sections mentioned in that subsection, the charters and letters patent under which Trinity College and the University of Dublin are incorporated.
(4) An order made under subsection (2) may amend the charters and letters patent referred to in subsection (3) in such manner consistent with the sections mentioned in subsection (2) as is provided in the order.".
Amendment agreed to.
Section 4, as amended, agreed to.
Sections 5 and 6 agreed to.