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SELECT COMMITTEE ON SOCIAL AND FAMILY AFFAIRS díospóireacht -
Tuesday, 17 Jun 2003

Vol. 1 No. 3

Estimates for Public Services 2003.

Vote 40 - Department of Social and Family Affairs (Revised).

This meeting has been convened for the purpose of consideration by the committee of the Revised Estimates for 2003, specifically Vote 40 - Department of Social and Family Affairs. I welcome the Minister at that Department, Deputy Coughlan, and her officials.

With the agreement of members, we will operate according to the timetable circulated with the agenda. Is that agreed? Agreed. People can share time. I will call on Deputy Donal Moynihan to take the Chair at some stage and I am sure that will be agreed.

We will proceed with consideration of the Revised Estimate and I call on the Minister to make her opening statement.

Is breá an rud é go bhfuil mé anseo arís ós comhair an choiste. Gabhaim buíochas as ucht an cuireadh a bheith anseo ós comhair an choiste mar gheall ar na Meastacháin don bhliain seo.

Although this is not my first occasion to appear before the committee, it is the first time I have done so to discuss the annual Estimates. While my Department has had to adapt its expectations, as have other Departments, of what is possible in the current economic climate, I consider that the Government has lived up to its commitments to protect the least well-off in society and that this is reflected in the Estimates for 2003.

Total spending on social welfare included in the Revised Estimates volume has increased by 8% from €9.5 billion in 2002 to reach its highest ever level in 2003 of €10.3 billion. Deputies will be aware that, following a reallocation of ministerial responsibilities in the wake of the general election, responsibility for community affairs has passed from my Department to that of the Department of Community, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs. This includes responsibility for the community development programme, the Vote for charitable donations and bequests and the voluntary activity White Paper implementation unit.

The total Revised Estimate allocation for this year includes the impact of the measures announced at the time of the publication of the Abridged Estimates volume last November as well as the impact of the social welfare package announced at the time of the budget in December. The budget package costing €530 million in a full year provided for an increase in social welfare rates at the beginning of January 2003 as follows: an €11 per week increase in the personal rate for widow-widower's contributory pension and deserted wife's benefit, aged 66 and over; a €10 per week increase for all other pensioners aged 66 or over and 65 in the case of retirement and invalidity pension; a €7.00 per week increase for recipients of invalidity pension, aged under 65, widow-widower's contributory pension, DWB, death benefit pension, carer's allowance, all aged under 66, carer's benefit and disablement benefit; a €6.00 increase for all others aged under 66; and proportionate increases for persons in receipt of reduced rates.

At the time of the budget, I informed the Dáil that in difficult times, the Government has sought to protect the real value of social welfare payments while giving additional support to older widows, widowers and pensioners who are generally not in a position to supplement their income with further earnings. This conclusion was supported by the analysis of the Combat Poverty Agency which appeared before this committee earlier this year. The agency noted: "Budget 2003 maintains the living standards of low income groups in difficult economic circumstances by providing a total welfare package slightly ahead of forecast wage growth." I am pleased that the continuing fall in consumer price inflation will confirm this conclusion as the year progresses.

The budget package also provided for a further instalment of the Government's commitment to increase the level of spending on child benefit. While the Minister for Finance announced that he was not in a position to complete the programme in 2003, as had been intended, he also indicated that this will be done over the next two budgets.

The new partnership agreement further underlines the Government commitment to those on lower incomes. In particular, Sustaining Progress contains specific commitments in relation to the achievement of the NAPS targets on the lowest rate of payment, child income support, as well as the existing Government commitments on child benefit and increasing the rate of the basic State pension to €200 per week by 2007.

Members of the committee can hardly but be aware that the more difficult economic circumstances required the Government to take a closer look at its spending in the run up to the publication of the Abridged Estimates Volume for 2003. Given this, the Government decided to appoint an independent Estimates review committee which was asked to review the pre-budget Estimates proposal of Departments and to identify all available options for achieving economies in existing services. The report of the committee was subsequently published and, while very useful in securing agreement on the Estimates, decisions in relation to the Estimates were a matter for Government which decided the recommendations on their own merits.

The recommendations of the committee were largely accepted by Government and were reflected in the allocations to my Department when the Abridged Estimates Volume was published. The most significant measures relating to specific aspects of my Department's spending involved changes to the back-to-work allowance, the back to education allowance and supplementary welfare allowance.

The committee had recommended that, in view of the decline in unemployment since the scheme was introduced, the back-to-work schemes should be progressively phased out. While it had been recognised in earlier consultancy reports that the eligibility conditions for the schemes needed to be tightened up, I felt that the wholesale abolition of the scheme was not warranted. Instead, following discussions with the Minister for Finance, I secured funding to ensure that the scheme was re-focused on the very long-term unemployed and on those in receipt of payments such as disability benefit and allowance, invalidity pensions and lone parents. The scheme is now operating on this basis for new entrants. Those who were already in receipt of a payment were unaffected.

The committee had also recommended that back to education payments over the summer months should be discontinued on the basis that students could secure employment to support themselves. This measure was implemented with a number of safety net features. Those who were in receipt of payments other than unemployment payments before moving to the back to education scheme will revert back to their original payment. On the other hand, those who were in receipt of unemployment payments prior to going on to BTE will be eligible to apply, in the normal way, for unemployment payments if they fail to find employment during the summer months.

I emphasise that lone parents and people with disabilities will continue to retain payments during the summer period. Students taking part in work experience as part of the course of study will continue as previously, provided that confirmation from the college registrar that the work is an integral part of their course is received by the Department of Social and Family Affairs. I also recently asked my officials to liaise with relevant bodies to identify specific postgraduate courses which would significantly add to a person's employability. As a consequence of this review, my Department will continue to support those on the Higher Diploma and Graduate Diploma in Education course.

The committee made other recommendations in relation to supplementary welfare allowance and rent supplement, in particular, reflecting perhaps the fact that these are some of the fastest growing areas of social spending. The minimum individual rent contribution by a supplementary welfare allowance rent supplement recipient increased to €12 per week from its previous rate of €7.62. This is the first rise since 1994. In addition, the maximum amount which the health boards can pay in rent supplement has been restricted to 2002 levels.

Rents have increased dramatically in recent years. There were suspicions that landlords had been revising rents upwards in response to changes in the maximum rent limits set by the health boards. The effect of capping the maximum rent will be twofold. As an anti-inflationary measure, it should lead to a rent price freeze or, in some instances, a reduction.

A more intensive programme for the processing of asylum applications by the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform will be followed up by savings in the payment of SWA.

While the combined impact of measures announced at the time of the publication of the Revised Estimates volume had an estimated impact of €97 million on departmental spending, this was more than offset by the €530 million the Government allocated in the budget package. This was significantly larger than the tax package announced by the Minister for Finance. At a time of increased economic uncertainty, this clearly emphasises the Government's commitment to protecting those at highest risk. My colleagues and I are committed to safeguarding the position of all social welfare recipients and I look forward to making further progress, in the years ahead, on the achievement of our social inclusion commitments.

As I stated earlier, social welfare expenditure in 2003 will be approximately €10.3 billion. This corresponds to about 29% of total current Government spending and 9.4% of gross national product. This makes it very important not only in terms of overall Government spending, but also in its contribution to the individual well-being of many persons in the State. It is incumbent upon us to ensure that we are clear and consistent in the objectives for this spending and ensure that we can see the tangible effects, particularly on those who are disadvantaged in our society. For the committee's information, I will provide a brief overview of the areas where this money goes.

The largest amount goes to old age pensioners, who receive 23% of total expenditure. Widows, widowers and one parent families account for 17%; child related payments, mainly child benefit, take up a further 17%; 15% goes on payments related to illness, disability and caring; unemployment now accounts for 11% of my Department's total expenditure, while employment supports amount to a further 3%; 10% goes on a range of other supports such as free schemes, supplementary welfare allowance and the bereavement grant; and the remaining 4% is spent on administrative expenses such as staff pay, accommodation and IT expenses.

What is the impact of all of this spending on income support? The effects of the Government's social and economic policies have been clear. The real value of payments has increased over time. Long-term payments for a couple without children have risen by over 52% since 1998, while short-term payments for a couple without children have risen by over 46%. The level of child income support has increased considerably in recent years. The social welfare payment of a couple on a short-term payment with two children has risen by over 54%, way ahead of inflation which increased by 23.5% over the same period.

In 1994 consistent poverty was almost 15%. By 2000, it stood at just over 6%. Consistent poverty among children has been halved from 17% in 1997 to 8% in 2000. In the revised national anti-poverty strategy, a new target of €150 per week in 2002 for the lowest rates of social welfare payments is to be met by 2007 and this should have a further impact on measured poverty.

Members of the committee will be aware that while the Exchequer makes the most significant contribution in terms of resources, as it funds all the systems-based schemes and universal schemes such as child benefit, employees and employers, as well as self-employed, also make a significant contribution to the social welfare system through the operation of the social insurance fund. Exchequer funding is expected to amount to €5.5 billion in 2003. This is broken down as follows. The largest single category of Exchequer funded payments is child benefit at over €1.6 billion. This represents an increase of 205% over expenditure in 1998 and is due to the substantial increases in child benefit in recent budgets. The level of spending will increase further by €317 million when the Government has completed its programme in the next two budgets.

The second largest category is one-parent family payment, an expenditure of over €667 million. This is an increase of 9% on last year, reflecting the budget increases in rates as well as an increase in numbers of approximately 2,900. The next largest category of social assistance expenditure is unemployment assistance at €599 million. This provides for a weekly average of 77,500 recipients. Despite the current economic slowdown, this is 91,400 lower than the numbers in 1997. Members have details of further spending in the briefing material produced by my Department.

Of the €10.3 billion which will be spent this year by my Department, €4.9 billion is provided by way of contributions from workers, their employers and the self-employed to the social insurance fund. The combination of the solidarity and contributory principles which underpin the operation of the social insurance fund are heavily influential in the design of income support programmes and are a practical example of social partnership in action. There have been significant improvements to the social insurance scheme in the past 15 years. Coverage has been extended to self-employed and part-time workers, as well newly appointed public servants recruited since 1995. New benefits have been introduced, such as carer's benefit, as well as improvements to the existing schemes such as the increased duration of maternity benefit.

Since 1997 the social insurance fund income has exceeded its expenditure and no Exchequer contribution to the fund has been needed. A surplus is projected this year. However, we cannot assume that the relatively benign circumstances which give rise to the surplus will continue. To this end, an actuarial review of the social insurance fund was published in 2002 and copies of the report were, as required by law, laid before the Houses of the Oireachtas. The conclusions of the report will play an important role in the future development of the social insurance system.

The Estimates I have presented today contain two key messages. The first is that social welfare spending is not immune from the need to examine public spending for its effectiveness and efficiency and to ensure that Government spending is prudent and well targeted. The second is that at a time of difficult economic circumstances, the Government has, once again, demonstrated its commitment to protecting the less well off in our society, thereby tackling the evils of social exclusion and poverty. I commend the Estimates to the committee.

Thank you, Minister. We will now consider subheads A.1 to A.10, dealing with administration.

I wish to share my time with colleagues. I welcome the Minister and her officials.

It is sad that the first to be targeted as a result of the downturn in the economy are the less well off in society. The Minister has failed the people who live on social welfare benefit. This week, Fr. Seán Healy of CORI made observations to the Department that people are finding life more and more difficult on a daily basis. For the first time in many years, the health boards are being contacted by people who are having difficulty on a day to day basis. The increases people received this year have been wiped away by inflation, price increases and Government charges, which I will refer to in a moment.

Social welfare recipients were attacked by the county councils in relation to rent. Following the budget in December people received letters in January indicating the social welfare increases they would receive but the county council then took a slice of it. The council then increased refuse charges and water charges, which means that people on social welfare benefit are feeling the pinch.

I note that the Government and the Department keep referring back to 1997. I challenge the Minister and the Government to go back to 1997 and 1998 and see what the cost was of a loaf of bread, a pint of milk, a television licence, petrol and what it was costing people to live on a weekly basis.

People were disappointed at the decision on the back-to-work allowance. Given the Estimate projections for this year and next year, it appears there will be more people on social welfare and fewer employed because more people are losing their jobs. The back-to-work allowance was a great scheme. It gave people who were unemployed for a long period the confidence to get back into the workplace and set up businesses because they were protected by social welfare payments for three to four years. This amounted to 100% payment for the first year, 75% for the second year and 50% for the third year. It was of great assistance to people and encouraged them to go back to work. One must now be unemployed for more than five years to qualify for the allowance. This effectively means that the scheme has been abolished and it will save the Department a lot of money this year, which is wrong.

The biggest scandal of all is what has happened to the back-to-education allowance. The Minister has already entered into a contract with people but this year she is telling them that during the summer months they must sign on at their social welfare offices. I have raised with my colleagues in the Opposition on many occasions the way the unemployed are being treated. They must obtain a number of letters to prove they are entitled to an allowance. The Minister is making it more difficult for people to get employment. If the scheme had to be changed this year, it should have been changed for the new applicants from September on. People on the existing scheme should have been left on it. Given the amount of hassle and aggravation this has created throughout the State, it was bad PR on the part of the Minister and the Department, which she should not have allowed happen.

There were also cutbacks in the summer job scheme. This scheme is now the responsibility of the Minister for Community, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs, Deputy Ó Cuív. However, at the end of the day, all the money is coming out of the one pot. This was another attack on the most vulnerable in society.

The biggest complaint people have is the cost of living on a day to day basis. We were told by the Government that there was a four year plan for child benefit. However, when there was a downturn in the economy last year, the Government failed to honour the commitment given to mothers that it would look after women with children in particular. All statistics and reports have shown that the money given for children was spent on children. Child benefit is the one payment paid directly to women. I am not in favour of taxing that benefit. Women spend that payment on the children and it is important that children are looked after.

This has been a difficult year for those dependent on social welfare. In spite of the all the hype, the increase of €6 or €7 has been wiped out by inflation, council rents and by increases in every service charge. I expected the Minister and her Department to introduce a supplementary budget this year to try to help these people who are less well-off.

What procedures are in place in the offices of the Department to combat fraud? I compliment the Department when it discovers anyone defrauding the taxpayer. These people are taking money from the less well-off by claiming social welfare benefits to which they are not entitled. I ask the Minister to say what are the measures being taken in the Department to combat fraud, such as checking up on the schemes. The Minister and the Department stated that a figure of at least €14 million or €15 million was saved. I compliment them. I will fully support the Minister and any Government who ensures that anyone caught defrauding the State and the taxpayer will be penalised.

Does the Minister condone the expenditure of €30,000 by the Pensions Board on wining and dining, golf, a fee bar, free lunch, dinner and bed - free everything - while people are hardly able to live on social welfare? I ask the Minister either to condone this expenditure or to dissociate herself and the Department from it. I cannot condone it. The Sunday newspapers stated that millions were spent on doing up offices for them. There was also a lot of money spent by the Department upgrading its equipment and the Estimates state that more money will be spent.

I note the Estimates show that the consultants will be protected again. There has been no cutback in their funds. The consultants, the programme managers and the spin doctors will be looked after while people on social welfare have been let down.

I welcome the Minister and I wish to comment on some specific issues. In her first political speech after her appointment, she made a major commitment to the farm assist scheme. I question this system. With all the advertisements for the scheme and all the effort made by the Minister to make it more accessible, the figures in the Estimates show an increase of 8%. Considering the increase given by the budget for those on the scheme already, it does not leave much room for increased numbers, despite a dramatic fall in farm prices and farm incomes. The implementation of the scheme should be examined. People are asked for a lot of things and they are not allowed expenses such as depreciation that others are allowed.

The issue of one-parent families has been raised. I wish to highlight the case of a person who received a €7 increase on 1 January and whose rent was increased from €49 a month to €86 a month. What is the Department's policy on that type of increase? Where does that person find the money for the increased television licence, the increased electricity and bin charges? The bin charge cost €153 last year and the same company wants €280 this year. We can talk glibly about how well we provide for social welfare recipients but these are the facts. I am pleased the Minister has increased funding to the money advice and budgeting group. They will be an essential part of the national scene in the next period when the points I have raised are taken into account.

The carer's allowance should be examined. There is a major tightening up in that area. Many single people, men and women, living at home on a farm and looking after a parent are being questioned and harassed about the number of hours they work on the farm. This was not an issue when the scheme was initiated. In some cases they pay someone to help them out when they are away. It is sad to see this step being taken by the Department.

As my colleague has stated, the back-to-work allowance has been cut simply to make a saving of €20 million. I believe this will be one of the biggest disasters ever. People were brought into the scheme by Obair and other groups and guaranteed they would receive the allowance. The budget decision means they are left high and dry. A total saving of €26 million was made by the cutting of that scheme and the back to education scheme.

I fully appreciate the Minister's difficulties and I acknowledge that she showed an interest in the farm assist scheme when she was appointed. What happens on the ground is what really counts. I would love to see small farmers and small shopkeepers, those sorts of people, brought into the family income supplement scheme so that there would be a real benefit. There are fewer people in real terms on the farm assist scheme today than there were on the old social welfare scheme because those on disability and other schemes were also included. I ask the Minister not to forget where she comes from and remember that those people who need it most deserve to be looked after. The well-off taxpayers have bought their villas in Spain.

Lone parents are often not single people - they can often be lone parents as a result of family break-up. They are under severe pressure. Many do not even qualify for medical cards, because if they take part-time jobs, as they are allowed to do under the scheme, they lose their medical cards. Some 30,000 people have lost their entitlements to medical cards in the past 12 months, whereas there were supposed to be 200,000 extra. The Minister is not in charge of medical cards but this causes a lot of hardship.

I welcome the Minister and her officials. We have already discussed the budget and the Estimates at different stages both in the Dáil and in this committee. On the basis of the Minister's contribution this afternoon, she is not living in the real world. Notwithstanding the case being put forward by the Opposition, she said she considers that the Government has lived up to its commitment to protect the less well off in society. She should leave the car aside and go and have a chat with the people really affected.

In this year of the Special Olympics I want to home in on the area of people with disabilities. A comprehensive report was submitted to us, and presumably to the Minister, from the Disability Federation of Ireland. Budget 2003 increased the risk of people with disabilities living in poverty and has restricted the availability of already limited services to people with disability. The absence of a rights based approach towards the needs of people with disability, underpinned in legislation, is causing this problem.

The Disability Federation of Ireland group stated that the one thing all people with disability in Ireland have in common is the risk of experiencing a high level of poverty. Of all households headed by an ill or disabled person, 54.4% are living at or below 60% of the poverty line. The national rate of unemployment is 4.6%, yet it is estimated that at least 70% of people with a disability are unemployed. By and large, the extra costs of having a disability are met by people with disabilities, not by the State.

Poverty and disability remain interlinked here. To tackle this will involve improving the income supports available to people with disabilities. Disability allowance is currently €124.80 per week, while the average industrial wage is €524 per week. Inflation makes matters worse for people with disability. I know it has gone down a little, no thanks to the Government, but it was running at 5% in the first quarter of the year.

People with disabilities, and organisations dealing with them, want the Minister to make fundamental decisions. Budget 2003 gave a €10 increase in contributory old age pensions and just €6 in the disability allowance. That is an issue the Minister must address. Disability payment schemes should recognise the extra costs a disabled person incurs as a result of disability. Various comments have been made and studies have been initiated in regard to bringing in such a scheme. However, there is no response from this Government.

The Commission on the Status of People with Disabilities and the National Economic and Social Forum report of 1994 recommended that the needs of people with disabilities should be addressed by a variable cost disability payment scheme. This scheme would take account of equipment, mobility, communications, travel, telephone and living costs. The basic living costs for people with disabilities are heating, food, clothing, medical care and assistance. These issues need to be addressed. If we want to go forward in regard to the needs of people with disability, we must address them and take the necessary fundamental decisions. We must fight the cause with Government, get it to acknowledge the problems and deal with them.

Throughout the country there is an understanding of the existence of inequality. The Holy Faith Associates justice group, which works right across the country, is demanding that I, as a public representative, bring this to the Minister's attention. In the preparation of the budget and Estimates for 2004, we must look at the resources available and distribute them more evenly.

The Minister said that social welfare payments would keep in line with inflation and rising costs, but in giving increases the Government is merely keeping faith with commitments in Sustaining Progress. Over the last five budgets a family with an income of €60,000 a year has had an income increase of 61%, yet a family on €11,000 a year has had only a 37% increase. This shows the parameters in this society where we are trying to deal with poverty and injustice.

These are only some of the issues with which the Minister and society must deal. I ask her to consider them at this stage of the Estimates for the budget. As this is the Minister's first budget I will not lash out at her but will give her the opportunity to show what she will do. However, after this year we will stand up and be counted and question her in regard to the type of society she wants to see.

I wonder if Deputy Ryan will take the 61% increase he got in his salary. Perhaps he will not. He is paying a compliment to the Minister here because the social welfare increases practically match that. They have increased by 54%. This is a compliment to the Government over the past five years and to the Minister today. The Minister has practically matched the high level industrial and executive wage by registering a 54% increase in social welfare payments. That compares favourably with the inflation increase of 23.5%.

The Minister has done an excellent job, as has the Government over the last five or six years. Her budget of €530 million this year is sizeable. The increases provided are 4.5 times the level of increase given in the Labour Party budget when in power. The Opposition had an atrocious record when in Government. To criticise increases of 54% over a six-year period is a bit rich and does not fool anybody.

Tell that to the people who have got an increase of only €6 or €7 a week.

I know the facts hurt. Some Deputies want to shout them down and not hear them. I want to place the facts on the record of this committee. I compliment the Minister on her excellent work and the Government decision to raise the old age pension to €200 per week by 2007. The number of people on unemployment assistance is now 91,400 lower in 2003 than it was in 1998. By anybody's standards, that is a compliment to the people who have been in charge of this country over the past five or six years.

Medical cards were mentioned. I can understand why 30,000 people do not qualify for medical cards this year because Deputy Seán Ryan in his contribution showed that wages have risen by 61% in the past six years.

I will tell the people of Roscommon tomorrow. It is €130 for a family.

I can understand the reason people have gone outside the limit. There are a number of areas on which I wish to question the Minister. The areas of rent relief and supplementary welfare have been identified in her report as being areas of increased spending. I have some concerns about them, particularly the rent relief scheme. People in employment feel very aggrieved about this scheme. They are on tight budgets and cannot qualify for any relief and yet those on social welfare can benefit greatly and rightly so. Is there a disincentive in this area in that there may be an incentive not to seek employment? Could the funding be turned around and support made available for those who are on low employment incomes? I ask the Minister and the Department to consider the position of refuse collection charges. In the past, most local authorities were the agents for refuse collection. In recent times many collections have been privatised and with that the waiver system provided by the local authority system disappeared. The report lists seven different areas where relief is granted.

(Interruptions).

They cannot listen, they have to jump down everybody's neck. When they were there they were found wanting and the people know that. We gave some dignity to people on fixed payments. I ask that a study be undertaken regarding what areas have been privatised and what waiver schemes are available. There is now an unequal situation. This is an area where the facts should be uncovered and relief provided.

Sitting suspended at 4.55 p.m. and resumed at 5.25 p.m.

I have been fair and I have allowed Government spokespersons to contribute. Deputy Callanan wishes to ask the Minister a question.

I will be very brief.

I appreciate that.

I would like to comment on a couple of matters. I compliment the Minister, Deputy Coughlan, and her Department, which is accepted by everyone as the most user-friendly of all Departments. Deputies and members of the public receive replies from the Department very quickly. I welcome the extra €530 million that is being provided in this Estimate. It is good to find such funds in a time of tight finances.

I was concerned by the fact that the means of families were taken into consideration when those over the age of 29 and living with their families made a claim for unemployment assistance. It has now been decided that such persons will be means tested on their own. I hope that the new provisions will apply to the lower age groups in time. I have always thought that people were being driven out of their homes under the other system. It used to be the case that they were entitled to an additional payment if they lived in a caravan at the back of the house.

I would also like to make a point about the disregard in the means test for carer's allowance. When people used to ask me whether they were entitled to the carer's allowance, I used to tell them that they were wasting their time. I do not say that any more as the first €430 is now disregarded. I am delighted that a person with a reasonable income will now receive the carer's allowance.

Many people panicked when the cap on rent allowance was first introduced, but it has turned out to be a good thing as it has brought rent costs down. People have gone back to those from whom they were renting houses and who are now charging less. The Department has achieved what it tried to achieve in that regard. I will not delay the meeting further. I wish the Minister the best of luck.

We have discussed in the past number of months the issue of inflation vis-à-vis the real increases which have been provided. I have listened to a number of speeches during debates by members of the Opposition. I thought the considerable reduction in inflation to 3.7% in May would bring about a change of attitude, but I am long enough in the House to know that politics is the art of the possible. Its creativity is exemplified here. In January, when we introduced the Social Welfare Bill, we were given parameters by the Department of Finance for which I was criticised here. I indicated that within those parameters we had factored real increases into social welfare payments. Inflation has reduced considerably to 3.7%, which increases the real value of the social welfare increases. No one in this House will ever be able to say they are happy with the increases, certainly not during my membership, but it must be acknowledged that the increases provided were real and well within the parameters set by the Department of Finance. We factored in many of the issues raised by members, particularly in terms of budgets and rent allowances. Increases were expected in terms of day-to-day costs of living and Deputy Ring spoke of a particular increase with which I was not particularly au fait. He said he saw a doubling within the differential rates. As the Deputy knows, the rates are set within the local authorities. Last year I was asked to request that the Minister, Deputy Cullen, re-examine differential rates and I copied to committee members what was done on foot of that request. The wishes of the committee were made known and its recommendations were implemented.

There are other issues involved and I alluded to them in the speech. There is only a certain amount of money and independent assessments were made. Value for money audits are conducted on a regular basis and expenditure reviews of all departmental schemes are carried out. I have taken into consideration the views of all Members of the Houses. The back-to-work scheme was very useful and it did the job it was supposed to do. It helped many people to move to the work market, some of whom were in the black economy but most of whom were in receipt of unemployment assistance only. There were cushions and secondary benefits put in place. Prior to any review which took place, the numbers participating in schemes decreased quite considerably. It provided an opportunity up to the middle if not the end of January last year to facilitate people within the system. I met with the partnerships to discuss how to best support people and to examine the best employment supports available. I have taken the views expressed into consideration and there will be an ongoing review of all schemes in the context of how well they reflect reality. More people are working and when more people work they no longer rely on the welfare system.

The Chairman and I will allude to the back-to-education allowance later also. The allowance constitutes a second-chance scheme which was introduced for second level initially and latterly for third level students. It was expanded to take postgraduates into consideration. I have been criticised, no more than many other Members of the House, with regard to the removal from the scheme of postgraduates. I have taken into consideration the usefulness of a person's primary degree in obtaining employment. As a primary degree is very valuable, we recognised the fact that those who wished to teach needed the higher diploma in education and were able to facilitate them. Once people received the back-to-education allowance they could work during the summer months while retaining their payments as the scheme was not means tested. People in receipt of existing payments, such as lone parents, will keep their supports. Those in receipt of unemployment assistance will continue to be facilitated and supported if they are not able to get a job. There are few parents on either side of the House who do not want to get their young people out of their hair to earn money for themselves during the summer. Equally, people on the back-to-education scheme wish to work. They are students and they will be supported. I was very fair with the allowance as I was categorically advised with regard to some of the schemes that they should be terminated as they had outlived their usefulness.

We have discussed child benefit on numerous occasions. Before the budget I came out with my hands up and said that we would not have the money available for increases. If I had made them, I would not have had a penny for anybody else, which would not be fair. I have outlined the Government's proposals for the next two years to increase child benefit. For the benefit of the men, who do not normally collect child benefit, the rate from April 2003 for a first and second child is €125.60. In the days when some of the members were running to the post office, the rate was £5. Some of them may have the opportunity to go down there again. There has been a huge increase in child benefit. It is the best way to deal with children's poverty and it is the best way of dealing with child care. We will rise to the commitment we have made.

I agree with the comments on the issue of fraud. Fraud hurts everyone. We have a control section within the Department which sets a certain percentage of reviews to conduct and analyse each year. Certain targets are established. By the end of April this year, our control savings were €102 million which equates to 93% of the target we set for this year. I have refocused some of my control measures to examine specific cases and issues which are arising. We have a multifaceted focus on fraud and controls. I agree that if we did not have fraud there would be far more resources available to the Department to facilitate those who are less well off. I appreciate very much the professionalism of the member opposite who indicated that the issue is very important. We have upgraded our systems to ensure that fraud does not happen, but we review continuously and adopt targeted approaches to the issue.

It is difficult to get beyond the headline, but if one reads the small print, one might just find some of the facts. The Pensions Board is funded by the pensions industry apart from a repayable amount made available to it for personal retirement savings accounts and a facilitation we make with pension contributions. The industry funds the scheme. Under the Pensions (Amendment) Act, I am required to ensure that the board carries out its functions according to the legislative provisions.

Away days were mentioned. I am sure Fine Gael and Fianna Fáil have had away days.

The taxpayers will pay for it. They lost €700 million last year, but they rewarded themselves with a €30,000 pay out.

What I said a moment ago was that taxpayers do not fund the Pensions Board. It is funded by the insurance industry. There have been away days on a number of occasions and perhaps the way people have been entertained raises questions. I have discussed these with the chief executive of the board.

It is still the people's money.

I am glad I am assuming responsibility for the pensions industry. My Department has enough problems. The Pensions Board is not funded by taxpayers. I am responsible under the auspices of the Act for ensuring only that it carries out its functions. There are fine representatives on the board who make a significant contribution to its operation. They are highly professional, hard working people, many of whom we are fortunate to have on the board. It is important to differentiate between the Pensions Board and the National Treasury Management Agency. The former, unlike the latter, does not invest money. If Deputy Ring wants to vent his anger, he should direct it at the Department of Finance.

The Minister should not tempt the Deputy.

We discussed the farm assist scheme and I took into consideration annual differentials and problems we encountered this year in comparison with the previous year. We introduced a programme to encourage more people to enter the farming profession. The scheme has high disregards compared with many other schemes and takes into consideration the number of children, the value of capital and 70% of income is disregarded. I expected more people to become involved in the scheme. Nevertheless, it has been beneficial. As the Deputy stated, we all want to support farm families. While the numbers participating have decreased considerably, they have levelled off and slightly increased this year. We allowed for an increase in the Estimates and will continue to promote it.

I agree that MABS is an excellent and progressive scheme and additional money has been allocated to support its expansion. It is examining other ways to deal with debt management. It is a highly regarded scheme and I am glad Members appreciate its work.

The issue of carers is very important. The Government has a programme on the number of people we wish to include in carer's allowance.

What is the figure?

This year a further 1,500 people received carer's allowance and some 3,500 people received an increase. Over the next five years, we hope to increase the allowance to the level of the average industrial wage. We want around 15,000 people to receive the allowance.

We discussed the possibility of removing means testing, which would cost €50 million. While I did not have this sum available to me, I was able to increase the respite grant, recipients of which are highly regarded and need support. The Minister for Health and Children and I will launch the long-term care reports next week or the week after that. I hope the committee, which is examining the issue of carers, will have an opportunity to evaluate the report. We have increased supports in this area.

Many members of the committee are also members of their respective county councils. More than €500 million has been allocated for the social welfare allowance this year, including €274 million for rent supplement. I was criticised with regard to the cap on rent supplement. Very few people have applied to the Department for an exemption from the cap and rents have fallen. This begs a question which we will all have to address. Very often local housing officers will regard people who have applied for a county council house and are in receipt of rent supplement as adequately housed. For this reason, such applicants are not moved into social housing schemes. I want to deal with this issue before we end up with even more people in need of the social welfare allowance, which would divert money needed to provide more housing stock. This analysis will have to be done and I intend to do it.

People fall through the system. A pilot study was carried out in certain areas of Dublin which showed that people in receipt of rent supplement were not moving on.

What was the figure on rent supplement?

So far this year 55,000 people have received rent supplement.

I meant the total figure inmonetary terms.

More than €500 million has been allocated for the social welfare allowance, of which around €274 million is for rent supplement. The remainder is made up of exceptional needs payments and so forth. This is an astronomical sum of money.

Under the previous programme for Government, the Department was requested to carry out an assessment of income supports for people with disability. This has almost been completed.

I have not heard anything about it.

I said it was nearing completion. I will return to the issue in the near future. There have been many improvements in this area. Deputies will notice that the only section of society not discommoded by changes in the schemes, including the back-to-education and back-to-work programmes and employment supports, has been those in receipt of disability and invalidity benefits. People with disabilities need the available supports.

There are a number of employment support schemes available to people with disabilities. They require intense engagement, which is frequently absent, to encourage people to move from disability and invalidity allowances into the workplace or education. The employment support systems include facilities to help this transition, including soft loans to help buy items such as computers which would allow people to work. They may be minor supports, but they are important.

We increased funding for treatment benefits such as hearing aids. Representatives of the disability sector agree that work represents the best way forward for people with disability. Those moving from benefits to work are allowed disregards. For example, a person in receipt of disability benefit who is able to take up a job for therapeutic reasons, will find it helpful to be exempted from losing benefit for a year or two. Such persons keep their secondary benefit if they find a suitable job.

The Department has taken targeted approaches to support for people with disabilities. We are acutely aware of disability and the benefits arising from the current schemes. I look forward to the report on income and future requirements which is due to be published shortly. Of all the groups covered by my Department, I will not accept criticism of the support provided to people in receipt of disability allowance, disability benefit and invalidity benefit.

I must address the issue of consultancies because Deputy Ring has a bee in his bonnet about them.

He has not reached the issue yet.

He raised it.

As I want to return to the subject, the Minister would be better to wait.

The customer service provided by the Department is excellent. This was made possible through investing in new technologies and new methods of payment and support. That had to be done through taking in expertise which was not already available to us. We have a number of very fine schemes. When the system is up and running I will invite all the committee members to Letterkenny to see it in operation.

Tying in with the GRO project will mean both greater customer service and greater service delivery. It is a ten-year project to move that to the Department in Sligo. We are looking at the efficiencies and the effectiveness of supporting all those projects. They are radical modern systems that offer value for money. Consultancies were based purely on technical expertise that was not available to the Department. I look forward to progressing that in due course. It was not spent on spin doctors or anything else.

Like the Deputy, I stand on my own feet. If I put as much spin on things as he does I will do well in life. I would be more than happy to facilitate the Chair and the committee if there are other issues members wish to raise.

On a point of order, Chairman, how do you propose we go through the Estimates? Will we take each subhead in turn?

I did not intend going through all of the subheads.

It is important that we would do so, rather than jumping from one area to another.

I wish to put a question to the Minister. She might not be able to reply to it today but perhaps the Department can provide a reply later. It concerns a recent case in my constituency. A 16 year old girl, whose father was on invalidity pension, had a baby. Due to the invalidity pension the family was entitled to free schemes but these were taken away once the daughter received a payment from the Department. As a result, the family was angry and annoyed. This is an anomaly in the system. Surely it was preferable that the parents took in their daughter. She is now continuing in full-time education. She is not getting rent subsidy from the State nor is she looking for a council house. It is wrong of the State to take away their free schemes when they were helping out their daughter. Will the Minister examine the case if I send the details to her?

She was 16 years old.

She is back in full-time education now. The free schemes were lost because the family took her in and she is in receipt of a payment.

She would not be entitled under the scheme. It would be a help if the family could be advised as to the best thing to do.

They may have been told to put her out to fend for herself but they do not want to do this. They want to keep her at home with her child so she can get an education in order that she does not continue in this situation for the rest of her life. This is most unfair and the family are angered by it.

If the Deputy gives me the details of the case I will deal with it personally.

I will send the details to the Minister so the Department can investigate the matter. This is wrong and is something the Department should investigate. It is great that the parents stood by their daughter. She is now in full-time education. They no longer qualify for the free schemes.

The household income has to be taken into account. We must consider whether she would be better off if she was a dependant or in receipt of her own social welfare benefit. If the Deputy sends me the details and the relevant numbers I will take a look at it.

I will. She lives at home with her parents. She could not survive on her own. It would cost the State far more money if she lived on her own. She would be receiving rent allowance, child care and so on.

I intend to take my colleague to task in public regarding guidelines for medical cards. He is talking through his hat regarding the guidelines. There are so many people——

He is gone.

I am sorry he has gone. I want to put on record that——

I thought Deputy Ring was referring to me.

No. I would not say that about my good colleague from Mayo.

A great place.

Deputy Finneran is wrong. The reason so many people are losing their medical cards is that the guidelines are so low. This is something that should be addressed by the Cabinet. I accept it is not within the Minister's brief but it is an anomaly that should be addressed. Judged purely in terms of means, two people on invalidity pension no longer qualify for a medical card.

They qualify on medical grounds if they are in receipt of a disability allowance.

Some of them will qualify on medical grounds but others will not. Viewed purely in terms of means, they do not qualify. This is something which the Minister might address at a later stage.

Subheads A1 to A10 deal with administration. Does anyone have a point to make on this area? Speakers will have to be brief because we have already discussed the matter for several hours.

In regard to subhead A2 - travel and subsistence - I would not stand over fraud, whether it relates to social welfare or any other area. Is there a perception within the Department that there is widespread fraud being perpetrated in regard to social welfare payments? If this is not the case, I would be concerned by the slant that is presented by some elements of the media. It is also alleged that there was a recent comment from the Department to the media to the effect that it is all right to fiddle the dole or get a bit more social welfare. If that is the case, it would be totally unacceptable. It is giving an impression that a substantial number of people in receipt of social welfare are on the fiddle. My understanding is that this is not the case. If such comments were made, will the Minister send a briefing note through the Department that such comments should not be made to the media or anywhere else in future?

In the context of subhead A7, there is an increase of more than 100% in the information technology consultancy allocation for this year. In subhead A9 there is an increase of some 120% in consultancies. How much of this refers to what the Minister outlined earlier in regard to streamlining the system? Does any other element of it relate to PR? I am aware from a media story that she did not spend as much in this respect as some of her colleagues but does any of the spending on consultancy go into her own PR machine?

While I accept the Minister's earlier comments in this regard, sizeable sums of money have been paid out to consultants. Are these consultants subject to contract? Is the contract advertised or how are the jobs awarded?

In another context, it appears that one group of consultants is getting all the contracts. Some €12 million has been spent on roads that have not been built. I have a major anxiety over consultants that get an open brief. Do consultancies go to tender?

All these issues are part of the public procurement procedures that exist and all the projects go to tender. If they cost above a certain amount, such as the ones under discussion, they have to advertised in the Official Journal of the European Communities. There would have been very strict criteria for assessing the consultancies.

Subhead A7 refers to the service delivery model programme. Phase 1, which pertains to Letterkenny, has been completed. An increase of €4.4 million is due for phase 2 of the programme, which pertains to the PSO in Sligo. Those concerned would state that they do not have enough money to complete the programme this year, but everybody has to cut his cloth according to the budget available to him.

We also had to carry forward €4.6 million from last year because the money was not drawn down. The Estimate is for €7.7 million. The programme is excellent. It is integrating the long-term schemes, including the retirement pension, the old age pension and the free schemes. The outcomes from child benefit have been very effective and efficient. We have a ten year roll-out programme so every scheme in the Department will be part of the service delivery model. However, at the beginning of the schemes, more money will be required for consultancy, and the rest will be associated with capital, such as computer systems and training.

We are also involved with the PPS number, which is connected with the Oracle financing upgrade project, and the overpayments and debt management system. The latter system is very important and allows us to deal with overpayments. We are also involved with the client identity service electronic messaging project. We had to reduce the amount of money available to this project this year because we had a carry-over from last year. However, it has worked out very well, it is excellent and it will reduce the stress on the customer and, perhaps, some of the politicians. All these projects represent value for money.

Subhead A9 refers to the——

In the context of the successful consultancy to which the Minister referred, how many people were competent enough to tender for the scheme?

Three companies tendered for the project under phase 1.

Was the one chosen by the Department the cheapest?

Bearing in mind the purchasing of equipment and the consultancy costs, why are there delays in every section of the Department? In Letterkenny, a man waiting for an eye test for glasses had to wait for months. He rang the appropriate office in Letterkenny about 50 times without success. He got sick of doing so and eventually he had to approach me. I tabled a parliamentary question, after which the issue was resolved within a week. The man did not want to have to approach me but wanted to deal with the issue himself.

Money is being spent on consultants and putting new technology in place, yet we have waiting lists for carer's allowance, carer's benefit and all the different schemes. I do not mind saying that there is a major problem in Letterkenny. People are complaining to this day that they cannot get through to the office in question. Maybe the Minister and her officials should make an occasional phone call to prove that I am not the only person complaining. I am reflecting the views of the public and those who contact me.

I telephone the relevant people every couple of months. I have discussed it at the MinMac, where we have looked at services. The bottom line is that there is a huge increase in the number of people making applications. The Department has a certain number of people available to it and it is using old-fashioned systems. The point of the service delivery model - it is on-line in Letterkenny but people have yet to gain sufficient expertise in respect of its operation - is that instead of transferring an application from person to person, there will be a control system whereby the person who receives the application will be able to deal with it and make a decision. That decision will be supervised by the supervisor but at least there will not be reams of paper and a recurrence of the same data. Our aim is to dispense with the need for application forms within ten years, if possible, because most of the necessary information will be available on-line, such as data on child benefit, old-age pension and treatment benefits.

I agree that the system is not perfect but there has been an increase in and a change of personnel to deal with backlogs and difficulties. There are certain months in which difficulties with child benefit always arise, such as September. People forget to fill in the form from the school to say their kids are still at second level or university. We have tried to increase the effectiveness of the information from the Department reminding people that it is now time to make their applications and submit them as quickly as possible so there will not be delays in the issuing of payments.

I have not heard of there being huge difficulties pertaining to the ophthalmic aspect of the provision of treatment benefits. We will check this.

What is the REACH project? It is mentioned under subhead A9.

REACH is what they call——

It is costing a lot of money.

It is. It is made up of the Departments of the Taoiseach, Social and Family Affairs and Finance. The idea is to create a public service broker whereby all the information needed by the county councils, health boards, my Department and the Department of Education and Science will be in a central location. This will allow for better service delivery. It is a huge project and I agree that it costs a lot of money. It has caused me much angst and concern because it was behind schedule but we have been able to deal with this. There were major public procurement issues which led to a re-evaluation of the costs. We have done this quite effectively. The money comes from the information society fund. It is a specific fund transferred to my Department to establish the public service broker.

The idea is that one will not have to apply for a passport, for example. The Passport Office will be able to access the broker, obtain the relevant information and make a decision on whether to issue it. This will also be the case for driving licences and other documents. We hope to design and build the public service broker this year, which is why there is an increase of €5 million in the 2003 budget.

Who will operate the broker?

It will belong to the State.

We will operate it ourselves.

The Department might do it. My Department has been designated as the leading Department in this respect. I do not know why but I believe it is because of the good reputation of its technology. A board has been set up with representatives of the three Departments. That there are three Departments involved - even though mine is responsible for the project - will make it a difficult project to implement. However, definite objectives exist. One's PPS number will serve as a common identifier and therefore the Department will be able to offer better services in the public sector. People no longer have problems with computerisation and gaining access to numbers and therefore the project will make the provision of public services very efficient and effective. I hope we will see greater streamlining as well.

I know, no more than anybody else, that the amount of duplication of the same information in every Department and in respect of every application is quite mind-boggling. The project will certainly take some years to implement but it should be seen as a very progressive way to provide public services. Hopefully, it will address the concerns about duplication and red tape that we have heard in recent years.

The Minister was to comment about abuse of the system. Is there abuse?

Is it a vast abuse?

This year, we were able to find €102 million in fraudulent claims. We have a massive budget and I do not know what the percentage is from a balloting perspective. I am not saying that everyone is making fraudulent claims. I am saying there is an element of fraudulence and occasionally, cases had to be taken to the courts. Some people have kept pensions books where the person was dead for years. As a result of computerisation, networking and greater partnership within the Department, there has been less fraud and less ability to make fraudulent claims. Occasionally people are not aware of changes or work outside the parameters of a scheme. While one would not necessarily call that fraud, it can lead to overpayment. No one in my Department, nor any Member of the House, is saying that people in receipt of benefits are making fraudulent applications.

No more than anywhere else, we must have control measures. We have those measures in place. When we have had hard cases, we have been able to deal with them and facilitate people. Where there is an openly fraudulent case, there is no way I will stand over it, nor would this committee.

If one looks at the position of lone parents, a number of pretty technical issues arise. Many people who work have experienced unanticipated changes in their conditions of employment. I am aware of people who have 19 or 20 hours work per week, yet because of the nature of the job they may be called in to work at the weekend and get extra pay. This is not happening by choice, it is happening because of convenience. I know the Department has dealt fairly with lone parents that found themselves in such a position. It can be a shock for a lone parent of long standing to receive a query from the Department. I know of two or three cases where the person was genuinely unaware of the significance of working additional hours. Working at the weekend had become almost customary for them. They now find themselves facing a significant demand relating to overpayment. This can happen at a time when they are trying to help their child get into third level education or whatever. As the Minister will know, in such circumstances the lone parent has to be at home at certain times. I acknowledge the Department is trawling through a number of those cases. I ask that it does not adopt a heavy hand towards people at vulnerable times.

There are huge disregards for lone parents.

The Minister has spoken about being fair and her Department is fair. The Chairman is right - there is a difference between people knowingly defrauding the State by working while drawing social welfare and those who do not understand the intricacies of social welfare allowances when their work circumstances change and overpayments occur. I ask that the Department be lenient with such people. However, people found to be defrauding the State should be dealt with. They are taking taxpayers' money that could be given to people who badly need it. While the Department has procedures in place, it will have to put further procedures in place to monitor people in receipt of social welfare, particularly those who are means tested.

When there are genuine issues, the Department will look at them. There are good disregards for lone parents, which could perhaps be seen as disincentives. Once there is a certain level of disregard, one can find oneself two or three euro over the limit and a poverty trap can be created.

Lone parents are a vulnerable group. Their application to the Department is not dealt with locally and there is little one-to-one interaction with them. I want to change this and make the system more localised and interactive. This would help to establish what are their concerns. I hope this will happen. The Chairman is correct in what he has said about lone parents of long standing who have not been bothered about for 15 years. This must be examined. Where there is marital breakdown or an unexpected pregnancy, we must try to ensure that people do not see themselves as being tied to a book for life. We must ask what we can do to help them. Perhaps they should return to education or get a job and stand on their own two feet. This is an issue that we will examine but it will require a change of psyche.

A vote has been called in the Dáil and the meeting will be suspended until the vote is taken.

Sitting suspended at 6.19 p.m. and resumed at 6.33 p.m.

Deputy Ring had some questions on the social assistance subheads B to V.

My question relates to the way in which the Department values the incomes of people who are being means tested. I would love to be able to give the Department €100,000 to invest for me, on the basis of the way it calculates how much people make on their savings. Will the Minister reconsider the method of assessment, which is not fair? I have already spoken about child benefit, back to work and back to education schemes. We have also discussed carers on many occasions and I have already taken up the issue of free schemes.

My point relates to subhead G. I know other members have made reference to the back to education allowance and I have heard the Minister's response, but I have received representations from individuals and from the Union of Students in Ireland which state that while the scheme, which was designed to help the long-term unemployed and those on widows' pensions or disability allowance to break out of the poverty trap, has been very successful, the proposed cutback will defeat the purpose of the scheme for a very small saving. I must concur with those views.

On the credit union loan guarantee scheme, could the Minister outline what this entails? The other element in which I am interested is subhead L. Reference was made to dealing with the fraud that may exist in the system. In the context of the family income supplement, however, there is a need for the Department and its officials to put an extra effort into identifying and getting out the message about the benefits for people who avail of this scheme. The Estimate provides for a weekly average of 13,130 recipients. In fact, there are other people out there who are not aware of the benefits of this scheme. How does the Minister intend to bring this scheme to the attention of possible recipients?

In subhead N, the Estimate for rent subsidy for this year, to which the Minister made reference earlier, is €261 million. We must consider the cost to the State of rent. I know there is a balance; we cannot just remove people from the rent subsidy scheme and put them into social housing overnight. Something must be done, however. A substantial proportion of that money could be redirected towards building social housing. Over five or ten years, this could deal with the issue of providing proper accommodation for people in need and for reducing the rent subsidy. There is a disincentive for people in receipt of rent subsidy to go out to work. Currently, there are many qualified people receiving this subsidy. They might have a child, but they have the qualifications and the opportunities for work are out there. There have been certain movements in recent years towards alleviating this, but they have not gone far enough. People with qualifications who want to get into the work environment might do so if there were a greater incentive - for example, if they could work while retaining an increased element of the rent subsidy. This must be considered.

The Minister mentioned that the money advice and budgeting service Bill was withdrawn. What was the reason for that and when does she intend to introduce a new Bill?

On subhead B, the old age non-contributory pension, how does the Minister see that going in the future? I raise this because quite a few people were not aware of the fact that they could have or should have paid voluntary contributions and when it comes to the time for them to make use of their schemes, they find they are a number of years short because they were receiving some sort of social welfare benefit. Let us take farm assistance as an example. Some people who went on to farm assistance were no longer involved with the Revenue Commissioners and did not pay the £130 as it then was.

Was that on an income of £2,000?

It was £2,500. Many had the money but were not advised that they should do it and now find that they are not eligible for the contributory pension. In many cases where a husband and wife were in business together, whether farming, shopkeeping or otherwise, this was attached only in the husband's name. Can we do a little more on that to encourage both parties to use their names even though the Minister has cut down on post and is not going to send out leaflets this year?

The Minister admitted that the back to work allowance is a good scheme. Will the Minister examine this because we are going to arrive at a point, maybe not today or tomorrow but in the near future, when increasing numbers of people are unemployed? The scheme is better value than leaving people on long-term unemployment benefit. How much would it cost to bring those widows and widowers under 65 years of age into the same income bracket as those over 65? It is difficult for a young widow left with a family to rear to find herself on the same income as someone who never had a family. One can argue that she is the same as a lone parent and is treated as one, but she is committed to a household structure and all sorts of things to which the family was accustomed before the spouse died. That applies equally to a widow and a widower. How much would that cost in additional funds?

With regard to the carer's allowance, we are in a new situation. I know of a case where an elderly man came out of hospital in a worse condition than when he went in a week earlier. He had home help of 22 hours a week up to a few weeks ago but now this has been reduced to 12. The family had to persuade the hospital to send him back home rather than into a nursing home which would cost the State far more. That is not common sense.

There is an addition in the budget this year on S2s for the EU community action programme to combat social exclusion, which seems to comprise analysis and consultants and so on. Perhaps the Minister could explain what that is about. The last item is the school meals community programme. I welcome the increase in this programme. How much of the country does it cover and does it include the milk scheme?

The focus of the policy should be to ensure that the numbers living in relative income poverty should be reduced and I am sure that is an aspiration shared by the Minister. Deputy Seán Ryan said earlier that when poverty is analysed across the age groups, one can see significant differences. They are very clear. The figures from 2000 show that 16.9% of those aged between 18 and 64 were living in relative income poverty whereas 43% of those over 65 were in that group. There is a sharp increase as people get older. That is where the policy will focus. The back to work allowance was an excellent scheme but it was virtually emasculated when it was extended to a five year period. I am aware of the constraint on resources. I am baffled by that because at the end of the day the money is coming out of a heading, if not subhead A then subhead Z. It is rather like the position on the back to education allowance.

I will be raising this with the Minister later but Deputy Ring made a good point when he said people had a legitimate expectation when they embarked on a course that they could complete it. The speed and abruptness of the termination have caught people unawares. I have received correspondence as has the Minister, from a young man who decided to pursue an opportunity which involved voluntary teaching activities in a foreign country. That part of the course was experience for a dissertation the young man was doing on comparative education, but the ground was cut from under him as it was from under so many others. It has left a very sour taste. The young man in question was advised that his payment could be continued during the summer if he could provide a letter from his college stating that summer education was an integral part of his course. It was part of his course but colleges often will not use the word integral. It is rather harsh to demand such high standards. This man's appeal was rejected and he told me that had he known in February what he knows now he would have deferred his plans and chosen a different focus for his dissertation. His work would be extremely useful. He suggested that if the Minister found that the BTEA could not be dealt with from a cost benefit viewpoint, it could surely be phased out without cutting the ground from under the feet of existing participants. This would have allowed all current beneficiaries to complete their studies on the terms on which they started and save the unnecessary anxiety caused by the sudden mid-game change of rules, as this man described it. That is why I return to the topic. The Minister is forewarned and forearmed and will have an expansive reply for me, as is her wont.

I have a very deep interest in the question of carers and I am happy the committee is investigating this thoroughly. We have received over 70 submissions from across the country. In the next few weeks we will set about the task of evaluating submissions and will call on some people to make oral presentations. I hope that by the end of September we will be bringing forward a detailed report and that the Minister and her officials will give some consideration to some of the recommendations we make. This is an all-party committee so some parts of the report will find their way into the Minister hallowed rooms and she will probably know about it in advance. I appreciate that money is scarce but a carer working 24 hours a day, seven days a week, does a great deal of good.

I agree with Deputy Crawford about the widow's pension. The same woman may have been looking after somebody for 30 years but may not get the respite care allowance because she is already in receipt of another social welfare payment. There are many anomalies in the system for people in the caring role although the Minister has tried to widen its availability. My own preference is well stated, but perhaps if I were at the Minister's desk I would have a different view. People feel very strongly about the amount of unheralded and unpaid work carers do on behalf of the State. A figure of 22,000 is outlined. Hopefully, the CSO will produce proper figures and fewer Departments will say that Deputies Ring and Penrose magnify the number as it is their job.

They will say that anyway.

Yes. We reckon the figure is between 100,000 and 150,000. The CSO figures will obviously be definitive. The Minister's Department has a more benign view of the figures. Figures of 50,000 to 60,000 used to be quoted. When we get the figures right, we will be able to do something about the matter.

At the end of the day, 22,000 people have gained something, although for some it is only a pittance. A full frontal assault is required to deal with the problems carers experience. This committee will present the Minister with the first copy of its report on carers and we feel it will be a matter to which she will pay particular attention.

On the free schemes, Deputy Ring, the Minister and I have not really had a barney but——

An exchange of views?

Yes, an exchange of views with regard to the desirability of extending the scope and extent of the travel scheme. I know a group is studying the matter and I look forward to a positive outcome to its deliberations. Those are the issues on which we will be able to focus in the months ahead.

With regard to the capital assessments that Deputy Ring mentioned, there were changes with substantial increases in October 2000. The method of evaluation was a protracted exercise for the Department. When one looks at the Department's methodology of means testing, it is different to other methods in other Departments. It is a fairer system, but in the coming years we will be looking again at the capital assessments, in particular. I do not see a huge change in the way the assessments will be done as they were only changed in 2000. However, there is a rolling evaluation on the matter.

Under section D on non-contributory old age pensions, there has been a decrease in the number of pensioners, mainly as a result of the fact that more people are making contributions which entitled them to a contributory pension rather than a non-contributory one. This is the way we see it going over the next number of years. That is reflected in the next section on social assistance, where there is an increase in the number of contributory pensioners. Deputy Crawford asked what would be the trend in this area.

Can something be done to encourage couples to sort out their pension situations? For example, what about a couple involved in a business?

We brought the self-employed into the scheme in 1988. We then changed the methodology of the number of contributions that had to be made in order to benefit from the scheme. We introduced the pre-53s and they have been helpful. What the Deputy is referring to is somewhat complicated. The person would need to be a partner in the business and earning an income in order to make a contribution.

The other matter the Deputy spoke about concerned people on farm assistance who would have had an income in excess of £2,500 at a particular time but did not make a contribution. This issue has not been brought to the fore. We can look at it for farmers and perhaps, together with the IFA, can advise people on how they should keep their contributions "alive".

We looked at the idea of a voluntary contribution in order to move into a scheme. I agree that there are some hard cases, but we could have the scenario of people not making a contribution for the first ten to 15 years and then front-loading their contributions. It would leave us with a huge imbalance in the fund.

One case that comes to mind concerns an accountant telling a farmer that he did not need to do anything about the matter. He wrote a letter to the Revenue Commissioners, clearing the farmer for four to five years. That farmer dropped dead a year later. Fortunately, he had enough to leave his wife and children with a reasonable widow's pension.

These things do happen but I will——

He was actually advised by his accountant.

We may have to work on this with the accountants who advise people on what contributions are needed. There has been much discussion on section G and the employment support service. Looking at the numbers for last year, the committee will see that in December 2001 there were 32,600 people on the scheme, indicating no change. In December 2002, the figure decreased to 25,200, so there has been a significant drop in the numbers participating in this scheme. Despite the fact that it was argued that the scheme should go, it went ahead on the basis that people had greater access to employment.

I appreciate what Deputies are saying about the back to education scheme. I flagged this in October, despite the fact that the USI did not believe me. We were all members of the USI in our day. I have not created a hardship as a consequence of the decision because people will be getting an income. We did have the situation where people were in receipt of a back-to-work allowance and income, which was to the detriment of other people who would not find themselves in that position. In appreciation of the fact that third level education is expensive, we will have an ongoing evaluation of the scheme's relevance. The partnerships have come to me with a number of ideas on the employment support services and I will be taking those into consideration.

There was a specific question on credit union loans. Access to capital, if one is long-term unemployed, is difficult if starting up a small business. Consequently, we were able to set up a contingency fund of €70,000 for those people who are on the back-to-work enterprise allowance. This enabled these people to receive loans from a credit union at normal rate of interest. This money could, if necessary, be used as collateral against default in repayment.

The Department was guarantor.

Yes, we would be guarantor for up to €70,000 of loans for these participants. It is a good scheme. It was stated that people did not know enough about the family income supplement. It is a good scheme and we have tried to encourage people to become involved. However, we have also seen an increase in participants' income levels, as a consequence of which they have moved out of the scheme. We did an evaluation, a customer action plan, on family income supplement and we found it had been absolutely excellent. People were very happy with this scheme. There were 12,043 families in receipt of FIS at the end of December 2002. We are aware of the issue raised.

Regarding SWA, there is logic in what has been said about €261 million being available and the question of how many houses could be built or how much private rental accommodation could be accessed for that money. That is why I am looking at a closer liaison with the housing sector and the housing officers. Although I would not have that competency within the Department, we are going to look at it, because I am concerned about the huge increase in the amount of money made available to SWA over a very short period of time.

As for the free schemes, last year €160 million was made available, and this year the figure is €175 million. These are very beneficial schemes. The Chairman spoke of issues such as free travel. As I said, we are supporting the pilot projects. Costs have increased as a consequence of the schemes but we see these projects as an important issue.

The allowances made to widows over 66 will next year be extended to widows over 65, and widows under 65 will definitely be my next target group. I agree with the Deputy that this group needs support. With regard to carer's allowance, we could talk until doomsday. As for the money advice and budgeting service, I pulled back this service for one reason. It is working very well on the ground, but two different groups have been developing, namely regional and national directors, at two different levels, and I am not having that.

I agree with the Minister.

I am going to stop it, because if I had a statutory situation straight away, I could not change it. I have asked my officials to review the whole thing. Structures and accountability are needed, but I also need a better working arrangement. That is why I have pulled back on MABS.

We have discussed all the subheads, including the social insurance fund, which we went into unwittingly. We have reached the end of our discussion on the Social and Family Affairs sub-committee. I thank the Minister and her officials for coming before the committee. I thank my colleagues for their detailed evaluations and questions in relation to the duty of this committee, to look at the revised Estimate for 2003.

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