SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE ENVIRONMENT, TRANSPORT, CULTURE AND THE GAELTACHT (Sub-Committee on the Environment, Community and Local Government) díospóireacht -
Tuesday, 22 May 2012

Vote 25 - Environment, Community and Local Government (Revised)

Chairman

I welcome the Minister for the Environment, Community and Local Government, Deputy Phil Hogan, the Minister of State, Deputy Jan O'Sullivan, Ms Geraldine Tallon, Secretary General of the Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government, Ms Mary Moylan, assistant secretary, Mr. Maurice Coughlan, finance officer, Ms Maria Graham, principal officer, water services, Mr. Philip Nugent, principal officer, planning and housing, and Finola Moylette, principal officer, community division.

Members, the Minister, the Minister of State and their officials will be aware that we are attempting a new approach to dealing with the Estimates at meetings of the sub-committee. This has been set out in the programme for Government. There may well be a learning curve for all of us. I have set a target to conclude at 5.30 p.m., with everyone's agreement. This was agreed before the witnesses were brought into the room.

I invite the Minister for the Environment, Community and Local Government, Deputy Hogan, to make his opening statement.

Minister for the Environment, Community and Local Government (Deputy Phil Hogan)

I am delighted the Chairman has taken the opportunity to change the manner in which we deal with the Estimates. As much time as possible has been allowed for questions. I am joined by my Minister of State, Deputy Jan O'Sullivan. I apologise for my other Minister of State, Deputy O'Dowd, who cannot be present, unfortunately.

Members have already received details of the Revised Estimate and we have provided them with some briefing material. The 2012 Estimate is in the new performance budgeting format. For each of the Department's strategic programmes, the Estimate sets out the relevant goals, activities, outputs, targets and indicators. This is the first year of the new format and, as the Chairman said, I hope we will be able to ensure it comprises more than a learning curve for all of us.

The expenditure reform programme includes enhanced scrutiny of expenditure by Oireachtas committees. We are very happy to participate in the work of identifying how this can be achieved in the current year and in future years. The Vote for the Department in 2012 amounts to €1.328 billion, which comprises €861 million in capital expenditure and €467 million in current expenditure. The funding has decreased but it is still very significant. We will continue to work to maximise efficiencies and determine how we can obtain the best value for the resources.

Local government has a key role to play in promoting economic recovery and providing vital public services. The local government fund is a key contributor to financing local government services. In the 2012 Vote, we can see the end of the Exchequer contribution in respect of the fund. It is replaced by the new household charge. This approach is a result of our continuing to comply with the EU-IMF programme, which commits the Government to the introduction of a property tax in 2012. To meet the requirements of the programme, the Government introduced the household charge as an interim charge pending a full property tax. If we want to maintain the vital local services that we expect, it is essential that we provide the necessary financial resources to pay for them. The Government will be receiving valuation-based property tax proposals later in the year, covering both how and when it will be implemented. This will deal conclusively with an essential element of local government reform and help to create a system of local government that is efficient, responsible and accountable.

To assist in resourcing the sector, the local government fund will, in 2012, continue to receive the proceeds of motor taxation, which amount to an estimated €1.028 billion, together with the new household charge receipts. Reflecting the lower yield from motor tax receipts, the general-purpose grant payments from the fund to local authorities have had to be reduced by 7.6%, on average, for this year. However, the fund still amounts to €651 million this year.

I acknowledge the efforts being made by local government to reduce demands on the commercial sector in the form of rates and charges. We have had modest reductions over the past year but much more can be done to achieve efficiencies. The recommendations of the report of the local government efficiency review group provide a menu of options for greater efficiencies. The sector has made good progress in implementing a number of changes recommended in the report. We want to accelerate that progress, where possible. The Department will be working intensively with local authorities to that end and I intend to publish at the end of June, in the context of local government reform, the first report of the local government efficiency review implementation group, which will set out the group's assessment of progress to date and the next steps that are necessary.

On the community side, axes 3 and 4 of the rural development programme play a very significant role in addressing employment and quality of life issues in rural Ireland. In 2012, the Estimate for Leader amounts to almost €97 million, which consists of €63 million in current year funding and €34 million carried over from 2011. This represents an increase of over 100% on the 2011 outturn and goes some way towards the level of allocation required to ensure the maximum drawdown of EU funding over the lifetime of the programme.

The other main area of community spending is the local and community development programme, which supports individuals in employment, into employment and self-employment through education and training, work experience, job placement and enterprise in urban and rural areas. The 2012 allocation for the programme is almost €55 million. I am confident the allocation will allow for the continuation of important supports for people in disadvantaged communities and allow for key front-line services delivered through the programme to be maintained this year.

It is vital we have a modern, adequately resourced water services sector, which delivers the critical infrastructure needed to support economic recovery and employment creation. The programme for Government indicated the fundamental shift in the way water services are organised and funded. Several reforms will underpin this, for example, the establishment of a new public utility, Irish Water, which will take over ultimate responsibility for the delivery of water services from local government, the introduction of water charges, with a nationwide water metering programme to commence later this year, and the introduction of an independent economic regulation of the water sector under the Commission for Energy Regulation. The reform will take place against a backdrop of continued investment in water services of €371 million this year. A sum of €331 million is being allocated to the implementation of the water services programme 2010-2013. This is required to expand the infrastructural capacity and upgrade the existing water supply network to tackle the leakage problem. Good progress has been made on the implementation of the programme, with 94 contracts now under way. It is anticipated that in 2012, funding will allow for up to 50 additional major public water services contracts to start construction and the replacement or rehabilitation of 200 km of water mains. While the level of funding is down, a high level of activity can still be achieved because we are getting much better value for money on the competitive tendering of these projects. The rural water programme has an allocation of €40 million in 2012.

We will spend €32 million on the environment and waste management, largely to meet the costs of the Environmental Protection Agency and the Radiological Protection Institute of Ireland. In addition, the environment fund financed from the landfill and plastic bag levies will allow a further €79 million to be directed to key priority areas, such environmental enforcement, waste prevention, landfill remediation and recycling.

I have been as brief as I can in order that we can have a full debate on the Department's activities. Deputy Jan O'Sullivan and I are available to answer any questions. However, she will answer questions on housing and planning.

Chairman

I thank the Minister. We have a reformed and restructured Estimates process. We will now proceed to programme A, housing. The Minister of State with responsibility for this area will make a brief opening statement. We will then proceed to examine it in detail.

I welcome the Minister of State, Deputy Jan O'Sullivan, who is appearing before us for the first time since her appointment to this Department. I wish her well in her office.

Minister of State at the Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government (Deputy Jan O’Sullivan)

I thank the Chairman for his kind remarks. I, too, will be brief. While the budgetary conditions within which we are operating are difficult, we have defined the allocations for the current year in as fair and efficient a way as is possible.

The Government's policy statement on housing sets out the strategy which we hope to embed during my tenure in this Department. The main focus will be on meeting the most acute needs, that is, the housing support needs of those unable to provide for their accommodation from their own resources. The financial parameters we are working with rule out a return to large capital-funded construction programmes by local authorities. At the same time, the numbers seeking housing support continue to rise. We are therefore seeking the delivery of new social housing through more flexible funding models, including the rental accommodation scheme, RAS, and leasing. The programme of social housing reform, which has been ongoing in recent years, has been given added impetus by the need to do more with fewer resources. Flexibility will be key to maintaining meaningful delivery.

I believe approved housing bodies are uniquely placed to help drive the achievement of the housing supply responses set out in the policy statement. However, the move from capital-funded programmes of construction and acquisition by approved housing bodies to more revenue-funded options does present challenges for them. There is also obvious potential across a range of housing programmes for the Government's objective of sourcing and providing suitable residential units for use as social housing to be aligned with the commercial objectives of the National Asset Management Agency, NAMA.

The move from traditional housing provision of build and acquisition was initiated by the rental accommodation scheme, RAS, in 2005 and supplemented by the leasing initiative in early 2009. The rental accommodation scheme, RAS, since its inception in 2005, has delivered more than 37,750 units with more than 6,300 of these being provided in 2011. Since its introduction, the leasing initiative delivered in excess of 4,400 units by the end of 2011. The allocation for the current year stands at €135 million for RAS and €20 million for leasing. Together, these two delivery modes are expected to deliver 3,500 social housing units in 2012.

In line with the restructuring to a life-cycle approach, the social housing capital allocation for local authority direct investment stands at €112 million in 2012. Allocations totalling €60 million have issued to county and city councils for the continuation of existing construction projects. A sum of €30 million has been aside for payment to local authorities under the land aggregation scheme and €2 million has been set aside for payments under the public safety initiative in unfinished housing estates.

The allocations to housing authorities made so far this year have been in respect of the existing commitments under the social housing investment programme. I hope to be in a position to announce allocations totalling €20 million shortly as part of a three year programme of new works that will allow for a number of priority projects to commence.

The 2012 allocation for the capital assistance scheme is €70 million, €50 million of which is being provided for the provision of accommodation to households with special categories of need. It is anticipated this will provide 600 units during 2012. A further €20 million has been set aside to provide a capital injection for projects involving approved housing bodies drawing down loan finance. This funding will also deliver a number of mortgage to rent transactions.

A figure of €49.9 million is being provided for homeless services this year, which means there will be no reduction in the provision of essential front-line support services. That is very important. Funding for emergency bed capacity to meet the needs of all homeless people will continue in 2012. The reconfiguration of services under way in Dublin can be completed and there will be continued support for the roll-out of regional homeless action plans throughout the country.

A new protocol, which sets out the funding arrangements and responsibilities for the delegation of funding under section 10 of the Housing Act 1988 between the Department and Dublin City Council in the provision of ongoing revenue funding for homeless accommodation and related service costs, has been put in place in the Dublin region. It began on 1 January 2012 and will be expanded nationally by the end of July.

The 2012 Exchequer allocation under the social housing improvement works scheme is €127 million. Of this almost €90 million will fund the national regeneration programme, with the balance of €37 million going to fund remedial works. An allocation of €27.25 million has been notified to Limerick Regeneration Agency for 2012, with a further €40.5 million being provided to Ballymun Regeneration Limited for 2012. The energy efficiency programme of retrofitting and improvement works across the local authority housing stock is a further example of how social interventions can also help meet economic and employment objectives. This is a highly labour-intensive programme and it is expected the provision of €18 million will allow for the upgrade of a further 1,500 units this year on top of the 2,600 units upgraded last year. Moreover 180 jobs will be supported and maintained through the programme.

Likewise, the suite of housing adaptation grants very effectively deliver across a number of priority areas. Around 9,500 households will benefit from the total investment of almost €68 million under these programmes. This is made up of €54.2 million from the Exchequer and €13.55 million from local authorities' own resources.

The Government's housing policy statement has a clear overall strategic objective to enable all households to access good quality housing, appropriate to household circumstances and in their particular community of choice. The allocation of resources within the overall housing Estimate for 2012 reflects the difficult state of the public finances generally. This is fully consistent with the policy and strategic approach the new policy statement provides. I commend the 2012 Estimate and the provisions contained therein.

Chairman

We note the Estimates are being presented in a new programme format with key output indicators for each programme.

We will now move to programme A - housing. Deputy Dessie Ellis has indicated he wishes to come in on a number of subheads.

Deputy Dessie Ellis

I thank the Minister, the Minister of State and their officials for attending. Sinn Féin's approach to housing differs fundamentally from that of the Government in that we consider the delivery of social housing to be extremely important whereas the Government places greater emphasis on the delivery of housing by voluntary housing organisations. There appears to be a shift in expenditure from construction of social housing towards the voluntary housing sector. With approximately 98,000 people on the housing list, the delivery of between 4,000 and 4,500 housing units this year will make little impact.

Rent subsidy is one of a number of areas the Government must address. The rental accommodation scheme, RAS, which comes under the remit of the Minister of State, costs approximately €135 million per annum. The rental subsidy scheme, for which the Health Service Executive has responsibility, is not included in the Estimate. I do not know if this issue will be addressed when responsibility for housing transfers to local authorities. While this is a welcome step, we must examine this area to determine whether we are securing value for money for rent subsidies. I do not believe the scheme provides value for money because we are fattening landlords and entering into leases that cost the State more in the long run. The Estimates to be presented to the sub-committee in July will give us a better picture of the position. They need to be presented in a better format which shows clearly how the various figures break down. The model used by Dublin City Council is a good one.

The National Asset Management Agency is not delivering to the State the social dividend it should provide. There is more scope for making savings and giving local authorities access to the resources of NAMA. This possibility needs to be examined.

Some people who are homeless are able to avail of rental subsidy. Rather than being placed in social housing, they are being housed using the rental subsidy scheme. This practice does not provide value for money. We need to find long-term rather than short-term solutions.

A large number of houses bought under the shared ownership scheme and other schemes are being surrendered to local authorities. We should consider how to use this housing to make savings. If it was used to boost local authority housing stock, the units could be rented back to the householders by the local authorities. They could then remain in their homes rather than becoming homeless or availing of rental subsidy, which would increase costs.

I note the allocations for regeneration in Ballymun and Limerick. Housing construction does not appear to offer value for money as local authorities can purchase finished homes more cheaply than they can build them. This does not mean I am calling for regeneration to be abandoned. I am simply asking whether we are getting value. Houses can be bought for €70,000, €80,000 or €90,000, with perhaps a further €20,000 required to refurbish them. We cannot build houses at those prices. Given that many of the families affected by regeneration schemes have been moved into surrounding estates or local authority housing elsewhere, it may be possible to consider other options for dealing with regeneration.

Those are some of my thoughts on the Estimate. I hope to have a better breakdown of the figures when we consider the Estimates in full. I am disappointed the allocation for social housing has been reduced to approximately €51 million, while the allocation for social inclusion has been reduced by €4.7 million. I am also disappointed that only €37 million has been provided for remedial works. As this is a new process for me, I will address the issues fully in July.

Chairman

Does the Minister of State wish to respond to Deputy Ellis or take Deputies' questions together?

Deputy Jan O’Sullivan

It may be preferable to take all the questions together.

Deputy Kevin Humphreys

I thank the Minister and Minister of State for their attendance. I ask the Minister of State, Deputy Jan O'Sullivan, to elaborate on the allocation for voluntary housing. How much matching funding will be generated? By attracting expenditure from the voluntary housing sector to social housing, are we securing greater value for money? Will this approach deliver additional housing units?

Deputy Noel Coonan

Many councils are facing problems caused by negative equity, as are many of those who availed of the shared ownership scheme. Does the Minister of State have plans to address this issue, which is resulting in a major loss of capital in housing stock and creating problems for the local authorities and individuals affected?

Chairman

Given that the purpose of the meeting is to deal with the Estimates, I ask Deputies to frame questions in the context of the Estimates.

Deputy Noel Coonan

The funding to which I refer has a significant impact on the Estimates. The Chairman may not be aware that a number of people have been forced to hand back the keys of their homes and councils have been forced to take action because householders cannot repay the loans they took out under the shared ownership scheme. This is having an impact on the housing budget of North Tipperary County Council. As this important issue comes within the remit of the Estimates, I seek a response from the Minister of State.

On Irish Water-----

Chairman

We are discussing housing. Before calling other Deputies, I will raise a couple of issues. The allocation to the voluntary housing sector has increased by €40 million. This appears to be an area where housing demand will be met. Increasing funding in this area raises an issue in respect of corporate governance in the voluntary housing sector. What regulations does the Minister of State propose to introduce on foot of increasing funding for this sector? How will it be regulated?

The Estimates make a proposal on leasing arrangements with the National Asset Management Agency. The Comptroller and Auditor General's report on the existing leasing agreement questions its net value which is considered to be neutral. In other words, it would be as profitable to purchase the houses in question as it would be to lease them. There is an estimation that we could save €25 million if rent subsidy could be paid directly. RAS payments are slightly different.

The following issue may not have come up under a heading today but I would like to see specific targets set for it, particularly in 2013. I refer to reallocations within local authority housing programmes. There does not seem to be any sort of benchmark on when a house can come back into the possession of a local authority. It might take two or 15 months to turn around, and there does not seem to be a measurement of how this is done. There are difficulties and some properties can have major structural problems, which would mean a longer time for turning them around. I carried out my own examination of the figures and we are paying approximately €20 million per year on the long-term leasing programme. If we were to invest €15 million per year on turning around properties that local authorities have in their possession, more properties would be available to us. A serious question must be asked as to how we fund local authorities when it comes to social housing and the targets for turning around properties. It is not mentioned today but I would like to see it targeted in 2013.

Deputy Tony McLoughlin

The Minister, the Minister of State and the officials are welcome. Will they outline the progress being made on housing regeneration? I have a specific interest in Cranmore in Sligo but they may refer to projects throughout the country. The Chairman may have touched on the following issue, namely, the progress on housing from NAMA. There are many unfinished estates and some of the previous speakers, including Deputy Ellis, mentioned the number of people looking to acquire homes. There are people waiting on housing lists for long periods and, unfortunately, they do not seem to see any short-term future. Will the Minister outline the short-term plans in that regard? There is an issue with turnaround for local authority houses or the time they are left vacant. In difficult times when there is no funding, local authorities must spend money to refurbish homes. If these homes could be turned around quickly, it would eliminate some of the expenditure.

The grants for home improvements and essential repairs for disabled persons are matters for local authorities. The authorities I represent, in Leitrim, Sligo and Sligo Borough Council, are crying out for funding, and this money would be well spent in the current climate. It would generate work for contractors and enhance homes for people. It is vital the Minister outlines the plans in this respect. What are the new arrangements for individuals and communities with regard to rural development funds?

Chairman

We are dealing with housing at the moment.

Deputy Tony McLoughlin

I will raise the matter later, but perhaps the Minister of State will respond to the housing issues I have raised.

Deputy Jan O’Sullivan

I thank the Deputies for their questions. I will begin with Deputy Ellis's questions, but there were some common themes. Deputy Ellis put an emphasis on social housing and the different methods by which we provide accommodation for people. The Deputy specifically mentioned the voluntary and co-operative sector, and we can leverage extra funding through that area. Deputy Humphreys also asked whether we can get better value for money in the voluntary sector.

On average, for every €20 million going to the voluntary sector, there is approximately €100 million in value delivered. For example, only 30% of the new community and voluntary, CAV, scheme money comes from the Exchequer, with the rest raised in a variety of ways. Essentially, we must provide homes for people in so far as we can through a variety of methods. We do not have the money required to build in a straightforward or old-fashioned way local authority houses with 100% capital investment from the State. We want to address the housing need that exists in the variety of ways that are available. Using the voluntary sector means we can leverage extra money and provide extra accommodation.

The Chairman asked about the voluntary sector, which we will regulate. One of the reasons for regulation is that it will allow the raising of money through financial institutions. I have engaged with the Irish Council for Social Housing and we are working on a voluntary regulation system with that body. We recognise, for example, that the smaller housing associations have a different need of regulation, taking into account what is demanded of them in comparison with bigger examples. The bigger ones have the capacity to leverage private money, and they all to some extent have the capacity to leverage ordinary philanthropic funds. By regulating these bodies, we will be assisting them in raising funds. They want regulation and it would be good generally for the sector.

Deputy Ellis also spoke about rental subsidies and the rent supplement in particular. He also mentioned the RAS. Deputies are probably aware that there is a commitment in the programme for Government to transfer the long-term rent supplement clients to our Department and the local government system. The Minister for Social Protection, Deputy Burton, and I have brought a joint memo to Government to outline the way in which this will be done. There is much work and it involves the element raised by the Chairman, the collection of money and ensuring we get value for money. That is under discussion. It would be sensible and we would have much more control over getting value for money if the issues came under the general housing system, which is essentially under the ambit of local government. The process will begin next year but it is a big job as it involves moving many housing clients from one Department to another. It will be a positive for clients, helping to remove poverty traps in particular and getting everybody into a more fluid and coherent system. It will help the variety of people who need the State to assist them in housing matters.

A number of Deputies raised the NAMA issue. Essentially, there is a social dividend to be expected from NAMA but it also has other obligations under legislation, including providing value for money for the taxpayer. Those elements must be balanced. The portfolio managers will deal with our Department in this regard. More than 2,000 units were offered initially by NAMA for consideration for social housing. Not all have proved suitable and the various local authorities have engaged with NAMA in assessing the various units offered. It is an ongoing process and as some units have not been suitable, we must go back and see if others are on offer.

We want to get the social dividend through NAMA. The Minister and I will meet representatives of the agency in the near future to engage with it on various issues relating to social housing. There are houses with nobody living in them and we have a significant housing need. It is sensible to bring the two elements together but we do not get the houses for nothing. There must be a financial result as well so it is a question of whether we lease or purchase. By and large, under leasing we can secure better value for money on an immediate basis and get more properties. There is a financial model that relates to leasing; the housing agency developed a series of models and deduced that leasing is more viable in terms of return in the short-term for the cost of units. Leasing is, along with other options, a viable and valuable way of providing housing for those who need it.

We are actively working on the mortgage to rent scheme. The shared ownership people are being considered for inclusion in the mortgage to rent model and there is no reason they should not be. About 100 clients are actively engaged in mortgage to rent so this is proving to be an option for those who are at the end of the line. Deputy Coonan was also concerned about that. These people can no longer pay their mortgages but mortgage to rent is a viable option for them, whereby they become the renters of their properties but stay in their own homes, which is ultimately a valuable result for them.

We have protected the homelessness budget, an issue we must address. I will be at a meeting tomorrow to ensure we stay on track in homelessness policy. We want people to end up in homes they can stay in with less use being made of transitional and short-term responses to homelessness. We must get people into homes and support them in those homes.

We want to reallocate houses as quickly as we can and we have engaged with local authorities to ensure they reallocate empty houses. One of the practical ways of assisting with that is the retrofit programme. There is now funding for local authorities not just to retrofit houses to bring them up to a good BER rating, but to put in extra money for replacement windows and doors, and other measures. The idea is that funding will be targeted to ensure vacant local authority houses are brought to a standard appropriate for reallocation as soon as possible. Local authorities are getting funding for that and it is proving successful.

I did not mention the funding of €127 million for regeneration that has been allocated to Ballymun, Limerick, Sligo and other parts of the country. We are protecting that budget but other parts of Dublin are awaiting regeneration and we want to ensure we can bring those areas on board as soon as possible. There is also regeneration in Cork.

The grants for disabled persons were raised by Deputy McLoughlin. This year €55 million has been allocated under that heading. The local authorities are spending that money well and there is always a demand for that money and we are trying to maintain that budget at as high a level as possible.

Deputy Noel Coonan

Shared ownership is causing considerable difficulties for local authority budgets. It is not just an issue where a person is unfortunate enough to lose the house; houses are in negative equity of 50% and beyond. Who carries the loss on that? Are there any plans to deal with that? Efforts are being made in the private sector but the same efforts are not being made at local government level to facilitate the local authority and the people concerned. Some of the banks will write off the debts in some instances if a proper case is made but what is happening at local government level? I have received representations from county managers and housing officers on this and it is a crucial issue that is being ignored. The Minister of State is addressing it from the point of view of the owner of the house, with efforts being made to transfer from mortgages to renting, but what is happening at local authority level? The knock-on effect is a substantial reduction in the local authority budget for housing, which means that other people should be getting houses but the houses are not being acquired quickly enough.

Deputy Kevin Humphreys

I thank the Minister of State for outlining the value of the investment in voluntary housing, with every €20 million invested giving a return of €100 million. We are starting to think outside the box on how to generate value for money for investment. In many urban areas, market rents have not collapsed; there are healthy rental returns on properties in cities, particularly in my area. We should encourage pension funds into this area where market rent, affordable rent and social rent would give a return of between 5% and 7%. Studies were done in the early part of the boom showing this would bring more money into the market, particularly for NAMA sites.

It is difficult to listen to the number of voids in all areas. How can we turn those around with the current limited resources? People are waiting on housing lists so could we look at the allocation of voids for people who would not be skipping the list but who would be allocated a unit and given a rent-free period while the void is being made habitable. A void would be given out with agreement for six to ten weeks rent-free while the work was carried out and voids could be turned around at no cost to the Exchequer. That is worth considering.

Deputy Dessie Ellis

There is a lot of work to be done but what savings would be made on transferring rent subsidy to the local authority? There would be huge gains if local authorities handled the issue directly with the resources they have, instead of having to deal with the complexity involved in the HSE system.

The voids issue is important. There must be an emphasis on what local authorities get to put the voids back into operation because every area is now seeing restorations and renovations taking longer and longer. Waiting lists are growing while more houses are being boarded up. There must be a greater emphasis placed on this and additional moneys should be given to local authorities to do this.

Deputy Brian Stanley

A woman from Limerick was on the radio this morning to outline the difficulties of living beside a void. I have lived beside one and while there is a human cost, there is also a loss to the local authority and to a family that should be housed. The area must be targeted and better use must be made of the housing stock local authorities have.

I have spoken to the Minister of State and her predecessor many times about shared ownership. Almost four out of every ten loans taken out under the shared ownership and affordable housing schemes are in serious arrears. Last September, 38.7% of those who had taken out these loans were in arrears of 90 days or more. I imagine that figure has increased since then. As I understand it, the rent fraction is increasing at 4% per year. If that is still the case, we must do something about it.

I know Deputy Ellis raised the issue of mortgage arrears under Topical Issues some time ago and today he raised the question of shared ownership. In her response, the Minister of State, Deputy O'Sullivan, replied that 100 clients are on a pilot scheme of mortgage to rent. I know that many people are not able to pay the €130 per week which they should pay but pay what they can, which is only €40 to €50 from an income ranging from €220 to €240 a week. The mortgage to rent scheme is more sustainable. There is a massive human cost in addition to the financial cost when people get into difficulties.

I take on board the point on leverage of funds, but I want to flag issues on voluntary housing associations. Some of the voluntary housing associations started out as charitable associations but some are now high powered business associations.

Chairman

I do not think that issue is covered by regulation.

Deputy Brian Stanley

Some associations are acquiring a significant property portfolio. I wonder how that will pan out with the Exchequer in the years to come.

I wish to raise the letting policy of voluntary housing associations, which is directly related to the budget. Their decisions on the letting of housing iare not based 100% on housing need. I wish to raise the question of housing need, when two people are in need. I understand that 70% of housing must be allocated to people who are on the housing waiting list. In the course of my experience, I have come across some very good examples of letting policies by voluntary housing associations as well as some very questionable ones. If public money is going into these voluntary associations, we must be able to stand over their letting policy. If we do not have a letting policy based on housing need which is similar to the local authorities', we will not get value for money.

Chairman

I welcome a number of the proposals that have come forward in the Estimates. Dealing with the macro economic environment, many housing policies were drawn up at a time when property values were increasing exponentially on a year-on-year basis. To some extent we are dealing with the legacy of when policies were drawn up, but now the context is completely different. When we come to deal with 2007 figures, I will be interested in looking at whether the incremental purchase scheme is now viable, given that it was initiated at a period when property prices were rising quickly. Do we need to revise that scheme?

I also question the leasing programme. In 2008 the State was paying €10,000 a year to rent a property which was worth €300,000. Given that property prices have crashed by at least 50% in most regions, the State is still paying more or less the same rent, even with the adjustments to rent supplements, on a property that is now worth only €150,000, because rental values have more or less held. I raised questions on that policy with the Comptroller and Auditor General at that time. Even at 2008 values, it was questionable whether there was a win for the State but now that property values have halved yet rents are proportionally higher, we must question what we should do about long-term leasing as well as capital acquisition.

Deputy Jan O’Sullivan

Let me respond to Deputy Humphreys and the other Deputies who raised this matter. We need to start thinking outside the box and use ideas that people come up with. We will be happy to go back and examine the ideas raised today to see if they are valid, particularly the idea of renting a house with the tenants doing it up themselves and living rent free for a period. I do not know off the top of my head whether we can do that. The Department will look at all the suggestions. We engage regularly with the City and County Managers Association, looking at the various problems that arise with a view to coming up with the best solutions. We want to be as open as we can to ideas and suggestions that will work.

Deputy Stanley raised the issues of voluntary housing associations having large property portfolios. Some associations have large property portfolios and that is the reason they must be regulated. We need to ensure the State is getting value for the public money that these voluntary housing associations process. Their letting policies should also be included when we are engaging with them.

In regard to the shared ownership scheme, where people are experiencing difficulties in meeting their mortgages, there is a code of conduct that the Central Bank has devised for the lending institutions under their remit. We also have advice on how the local authorities deal with people who owe them money, be it under affordable schemes, the shared ownership scheme or the local authority loan scheme. That is being revised in conjunction with the City and County Managers Association, so that we have a code of conduct that works for the different problems people are encountering. I know about the difficulties for people on shared ownership schemes and the portion of it that is the rent fraction. That is related to the money that was originally borrowed for that portion of the property and it was borrowed in a former time. The local authority has to pay back that money and somebody somewhere has to pay for it. We are reviewing Part V of the Planning and Development Act 2000 and that will include examining the shared ownership scheme. There is an ongoing review. We recognise there are very specific difficulties for people in shared ownership schemes. The local authority has a financial obligation in that area and we must be careful to protect all the interests involved.

I hope I have covered all of the subsidiary matters.

Chairman

That concludes the consideration of programme A - housing. We now come to programme B - water, subheads 3 to 6, inclusive: the water services investment programme, the rural water programme, foreshore and other services and water generally.

Deputy Coonan indicated that he wishes to speak on these issues.

Deputy Noel Coonan

I ask whether the Estimate is sufficient to cover the costs that will be incurred by Irish Water. Is this outside the remit of today's proceedings and does it fall on Bord Gáis? I wish to raise issues in regard to the proposed extraction of water from the Shannon at Lough Derg and the decisions that have been made about that. Have the interests of the people in the Lough Derg-Shannon catchment area been considered? Will the lake itself, Lough Derg, and the Shannon river be protected? Will the Minister say if work on this project will proceed? Is this still a Bord na Móna project or will Irish Water be involved?

Chairman

Unless those items are specifically specified in the 2012 Estimates, we cannot deal with them. Is Deputy Coonan asking whether there are Estimates for 2012-2013.

Deputy Noel Coonan

I do not know what difficulty the Chairman has with the questions I have asked.

Chairman

We are dealing with the Estimates. If the Deputy has the headings of the Estimates, we might be able to direct him in regard to his questions.

Deputy Noel Coonan

The Chairman stopped me in my tracks on my previous question on finance, but the Chairman then raised issues which were mostly concerned with policy and had nothing to do with the Estimates. I want to know if the necessary finance is in the Estimates to protect the people of the Lough Derg catchment area. There is a major issue.

Chairman

I am asking the Deputy to put it into the context of the Estimates.

Deputy Noel Coonan

I am putting it in the context of the water services investment programme.

Chairman

Is there a specific heading under which the Deputy is making this point?

Deputy Noel Coonan

There is indeed.

Chairman

Which heading is that?

Deputy Noel Coonan

I do not have it here in front of me.

Chairman

Okay; fair enough.

Deputy Kevin Humphreys

On subheads B5 and B6, foreshore and other services, I note that the Estimate for 2011 was €1.4 million, but this has increased to €1.8 million in 2012. It came into the Department in January 2010. I am looking at comparative figures. Under subhead B6, the amount for legal expenses goes from zero in 2011 to €340,000 in 2012. Could I have some explanation for that?

Deputy Brian Stanley

With regard to the water Estimates, has provision been made for block metering or what is called neighbourhood metering, which has been partially rolled out and is due to be completed in one local authority area this year? This has proven to be beneficial in terms of reducing the amount of water produced.

Some local authorities have suspended their leak detection teams. There is a modest enough amount of money involved, but these teams were very beneficial in detecting leaks early and reducing widespread leakage.

There is an increase in subhead B2, administration and non-pay expenses, despite a decrease in the overall budget for the programme.

On the rural water programme, there seems to be a significant decrease, from €79 million to €40 million. I know there are a couple of group water schemes for which commitments have been made and contract work carried out on the basis of projected receipts from the Department. There could be a shortfall in some local authorities in paying for those contracts. I ask the Minister to comment on that, because the amount has fallen considerably.

Deputy Tony McLoughlin

The Minister mentioned that there were around 94 contracts. Who will be eligible for those contracts? Will the contracts be allocated around the country by Bord Gáis or by the Department? This has been asked of me on a number of occasions over the last number of weeks.

Deputy Phil Hogan

Deputy Coonan asked a question about planning for water supplies to Dublin in the context of the Water Services Investment Programme 2010-13. The project dealing with abstraction of water from the Shannon for Dublin is at environmental impact statement stage at the moment. As with any planning application, an EIS is required. It goes to An Bord Pleanála under the Planning and Development (Strategic Infrastructure) Act 2006, and the outcome will be either positive or negative. Obviously, the concerns expressed by the Deputy about the abstraction of water from the area in Tipperary will have to be taken into account in the EIS. As with any other major planning application, these plans and strategies will have to be right before they go to An Bord Pleanála.

The cost associated with the Irish water company does not arise yet. That is why we have taken on an existing commercial semi-state company, Bord Gáis. We will be able to cover the existing overheads of setting up a new entity in 2012 through that process, and the Irish water company will become a subsidiary company of Bord Gáis Éireann. Bord Gáis has the capacity and the necessary skills to deal with that matter, so the matter of associated costs for 2012 will not arise. The objective of setting up this new entity is to ensure we have much more money coming into the system from the private sector in particular to supplement the public sector programme, so that we will be able to deal with many more contracts and we will fulfil our obligations under the water framework directive by 2016. We will have better quality water and better volumes of water, particularly for the east coast of Ireland, where there is a huge challenge in terms of commercial and industrial investment and job creation.

Deputy Noel Coonan

Will Irish Water be associated with the extraction project?

Deputy Phil Hogan

Not at the moment. It is being dealt with by the Department, and it is envisaged that this will continue to be the case until such time as the responsibility is handed over to the water company. We cannot come to any conclusion about that yet, because I do not have a date. We will be working closely with Bord Gáis pending the enactment of necessary legislation in 2013.

Deputy Humphreys asked about foreshore costs. There are a number of legal cases for which we must put in a notional estimate. We do not know the final cost or how long it will take to deal with these outstanding cases, but we must make provision for them. With regard to settlements in 2011, €34,999.93 consisted of a bill of costs associated with the Atlantic Shellfish High Court case, and there was a contribution towards a settlement of judicial reviews with regard to the Corrib gas pipeline, which was €231,916. We must retain the heading and try to make some estimate of the likely outcome in these matters. We put in a contingency figure for the cases we know are coming down the tracks.

Deputy Kevin Humphreys

Is that subhead B6?

Deputy Phil Hogan

No, B5.

Deputy Kevin Humphreys

What about B6?

Deputy Phil Hogan

Subhead B6 is a provision made for general legal services across the Department. It is not assigned. A total of €340,000 has been made available in the event that we need legal services for whatever issues arise.

Deputy Kevin Humphreys

If the amount is coming to €340,000, would it not be better if those costs were itemised? It would give us a better understanding. I am speaking with a view to the meeting in July.

Deputy Phil Hogan

All right. We will call them "other services" and break down the costs.

Deputy Kevin Humphreys

Yes.

Deputy Phil Hogan

That is fine. We can do that. My apologies. I must point out the figure is €34,000, not €340,000.

Deputy Kevin Humphreys

All right.

Deputy Phil Hogan

I got a bit carried away there. Noughts are important these days.

With regard to water conservation, the Estimate covers a number of stages. We pay for active leakage funding for two years, and then that is operationalised. We give money to the local authorities for the purpose of carrying out a programme of activity with regard to detecting leaks over a two-year period. It is not open-ended. I hope we will be able to identify where the leaks are over a two-year period. The challenge is to provide the necessary money under the water conservation programme to deal with those leaks. We are covering 200 km this year, so quite a lot of work is being done in dealing with some of the leaks. This also covers district metering and telemetry; funds are needed for that also.

Funding for the rural water programme is considerably reduced in 2012, but we must put it in the context of the €750 million that has been spent on that programme since 2000. Much good work has been done with the help of the National Federation of Group Water Schemes and the local authorities. Probably 90% of the original programme has now been implemented and completed, so we do not need as much money under the rural water programme this year as we did in previous years. That is the reason we made a reduction in this area and prioritised other areas.

I am sure Deputy McLoughlin is familiar with a number of contracts on which local authorities are having some difficulties in providing their contributions. I know Sligo has some difficulties with regard to the programme of investment in that area. That is a challenge we must address - namely, how will we deal with local authorities that will not be able to hit the target in terms of drawing down the necessary funds that have been allocated? However, we have 94 contracts that will continue to be operated by the Department under this programme to 2013. We expect that more and more of the contracts will become operational through the new Irish water company structure after that.

Chairman

We will move on to programme 4, environment and waste management.

Deputy Kevin Humphreys

I would like to start with subhead C7, which deals with international climate change commitments. This was a total of €10 million in 2011, but there is a sudden fall-off to zero in 2012. Was that fund discontinued and was the full contribution of €210 million made?

On waste, the plastic bag tax and other initiatives have proven successful. Is it time to bite the bullet and introduce a tax or levy in respect of chewing gum? The advertising initiative in this regard really has not worked and local authorities are still obliged to clean up the mess caused by discarded chewing gum. At present, the initiative relating to Repak is voluntary. Is it time to consider introducing a mandatory obligation in respect of recycling? The landfill levy has had the impact of making waste a valuable item. In the context of the Estimate and with regard to the position as we move towards 2013, the Minister originally outlined a procedure in respect of this levy for 2011 and 2012. How does he see matters progressing in connection with the levy in 2013 and 2014?

There appears to have been something of a falling off in respect of climate change.

Deputy Phil Hogan

I refer the Deputy to the fast-start finance programme relating to our international obligations on climate change. Our target in this regard was €100 million during the three years between 2010 and 2012. We allocated €23 million in 2010. There was no allocation in the Estimate for 2011. At the end of the year, however, we were able to redirect finances into this particular programme. In that context, I allocated €10 million. There is also no allocation for 2012 but if savings arise again we can see what might be done in respect of providing additional funding under this heading. We are in a difficult financial position and, therefore, we are not in a position to promise anything in respect of various programmes. Some €76 million out of a total of €100 million has already been paid in the context of the obligations we were expected to meet by 2012. ODA funding is also taken into account in this. In current circumstances, the contribution we are making is not bad. I hope we will be able to make additional contributions if savings are made up to the end of the year.

On the other matters to which the Deputy referred, we have negotiated a €9.6 million research and education package with the chewing gum industry. The duration of this initiative will be three years. There have been improvements in this area but they have not been sufficient. I have not ruled out introducing a levy but we must give the programme to which I refer an opportunity so we might see whether it will work. As the Deputy is aware, I launched the programme recently and there has been a great deal of advertising in respect of it. We expect people to be on their best behaviour on a voluntary basis. Often it is the imposition of fines which leads to rapid changes in behaviour. This will also become obvious in the area of water and elsewhere in the future. I take on board the Deputy's point that there has not been sufficient progress. However, I have asked the industry to make a financial contribution and it has made a much larger contribution on this occasion as a result of the threat relating to the introduction of a levy. We are also involving the local authorities in the funding of the programme. We are considering research in respect of the ingredients in chewing gum in order to discover whether biodegradable alternatives might be used.

On recycling, Repak has been a huge success.

Deputy Kevin Humphreys

I accept that. I am really concerned about the freeloaders involved in this area.

Deputy Phil Hogan

To whom is the Deputy referring in that regard?

Deputy Kevin Humphreys

I am referring to those who do not contribute to Repak.

Deputy Phil Hogan

A review is taking place in respect of our producer responsibility initiative. This is currently the subject of consultation with stakeholders. In the context of how we might achieve our objectives, there is always the option of bringing another player into the market in order to generate competition. However, I am of the view that, in light of the success of Repak, this will not be necessary. Pressure is always being exerted by large businesses in the context of trying to drive down prices and of negotiating better deals with Repak. There is also the option for these interests to go down the route of dealing with packaging waste themselves. I would caution them against doing so because they will be obliged to pay more in the fees relating to landfill and other methods of waste disposal. They should choose the services of a company that, in the context of the recycling initiative, has delivered for this country and its businesses and households.

Deputy Kevin Humphreys

Would the Minister rule out the introduction of a packaging levy?

Deputy Phil Hogan

No, I would not rule it out. That matter will be discussed and considered in the context of the packaging regulations. The latter are under review at present. I do not wish to impose too many charges because I will get a bad name.

Chairman

People will think the Minister is a softie.

Deputy Phil Hogan

The landfill levy is set out over a three-year period in order to generate certainty for the industry and also to deliberately divert waste away from landfill and into other channels of waste minimisation. I have set out the position in respect of this levy for the next three years. The projections for landfill levy receipts for 2012 are based on the estimated reduction in tonnage of 25% since the levy was increased to €50 per tonne and on a further reduction of 20% when the levy increases to €65 per tonne in July. We will be increasing the levy again to €75 per tonne in 2013. I have already made indications to this effect to the industry and the sector in order to give them the necessary confidence to plan ahead.

Deputy Brian Stanley

On C7, which relates to climate change, the Minister stated that our commitment is €100 million. There was no allocation in this regard last year but he managed to come up with €10 million from savings across the Department in respect of this matter. However, this means we remain €24 million short on our commitment to pay €100 million by the end of 2012. As matters stand, there is a shortfall of €24 million and there is no provision in the Estimate in respect of this. I am concerned with regard to this matter.

The carbon fund allocation has been reduced by over €2 million, which means it has been more than halved. Will the Minister comment on this and on where matters stand with regard to the carbon fund and our commitments in respect of it?

The administration non-pay costs across the different programmes have increased. In the context of the climate change programme, they have increased by approximately 50%. This is despite the fact that the allocation in respect of the programme has remained the same. I am curious to discover why administration costs are rising at a rate of 50% when everything else is standing still or, as in many cases, being reduced.

Chairman

Does Deputy Coonan wish to comment in respect of subhead C7?

Deputy Noel Coonan

No.

Deputy Phil Hogan

The administrative costs we are including under the 2012 Estimate are those relating to preparations for our Presidency of the EU which commences on 1 January next. Quite an amount of activity takes place in the run-up to a Presidency. This fact has been taken into account in the context of administration costs, particularly as additional resources will be required. We will be part of the troika from 1 July. I accept that the Presidency of the EU might not be a big deal in Laois or Kilkenny but it is certainly important for the country.

Deputy Brian Stanley

I am all for the European Union.

Deputy Phil Hogan

I am delighted to hear it.

Deputy Brian Stanley

The only problem I have with it is its title. It is not a union; it is a dictatorship.

Deputy Phil Hogan

That is fair enough. In any event, the Deputy does not mind our assuming the Presidency on 1 January.

On our climate change obligations, our contribution to the additional €24 million required is €17 million. The other €7 million comes out of the ODA budget. We will re-examine the position in respect of this subhead if savings accrue during the coming months. I cannot predict the future but we have certainly demonstrated our bona fides in respect of this fund by allocating to it €10 million which accrued from savings made in 2011. There was, as already stated, no allocation in this regard in the Estimate for last year, which I inherited from my predecessor, who represented the Dublin South-East constituency and whom I would have expected to include such an allocation.

We do not need to provide any additional money in respect of the carbon fund in 2012 because we are able to meet our carbon credit obligations under the Kyoto Agreement from existing funds.

Chairman

I thank the Minister. We will now move on to programme D, which relates to local government, and programme E, which relates to community and rural development. Are there any questions arising in respect of either of these programmes?

Deputy Brian Stanley

Subhead D3 relates to the local government fund. I am considering this as a book-keeping exercise and from the point of view of trying to make up the shortfall. A total of €175 million was allocated in 2011. That is now gone. The Government will look to the household charge to make up the shortfall. A 100% collection rate would yield €160 million. I am not making a judgment one way or another. I am simply calling it as I see it. It is clear that we will not reach a collection rate of 100% and it could be substantially off that level. Will the Minister comment on how the significant shortfall will be made up throughout the local authority sector? As the year is progressing a serious problem is looming in terms of the large gap in local government funding.

Subhead D6 relates to dormant accounts. The Dormant Accounts Fund was on ice. Is it still on ice or has it thawed? What is the position? A figure of €281,000 is pencilled in for it.

Deputy Kevin Humphreys

How will local authorities be treated under subhead D3? Some €160 million is to be collected under the household charge. How will the distribution and the shortfall be dealt with? Subhead D7 refers to the franchise. The capital provision covers expenditure on the electronic voting project. How much are we still spending on it?

Deputy Noel Coonan

Subhead D5 relates to the local government fund. Will the Minister discuss this matter with the local authorities immediately? A large number of €100 cheques are being returned to people who sent them in prior to the closing date. They are now being sent back and some local authorities are seeking €111 instead. This is an issue for people who have paid. They have sent in postal orders, cheques or cash which has been returned. It is a shame that people go to the effort of paying but then the local authorities send back the payments and insist that people pay an extra €11. I call on the Minister to investigate this immediately.

Several headings including subheads E3, E4 and E9 relate to local and community funding, in particular the Leader programme funding. There is less than two years to go now but only approximately 40% of the money has been spent. This presents a difficulty because some headings have been overspent while others are underspent. There should be a transfer of funding to enable people who have genuine and ready-to-roll programmes to be financed. The Minister increased the fund recently and this was welcome. However, an issue has arisen because the maximum limit has increased from 50% to 75%, especially in the area of manufacturing. Programmes are being classified as "manufacturing" but the county enterprise boards are cherry picking them. They will not allow the Leader programme group to administer these funds. Projects go to the county enterprise board if they are successful and get 50% of the grant but they must repay half of this 50%. This is less than equitable and it is creating a good deal of confusion. I imagine the Minister is well aware of it but this should be addressed in the context of the Revised Estimates. A clear and absolute indication should be given to the administrators of the funds in cases where viable projects are ready to proceed. These should be financed.

Deputy Kevin Humphreys

Are we taking programme No. 7 as well?

Chairman

We will not reach programme No. 7 because we will finish at 5.30 p.m.

Deputy Kevin Humphreys

May I ask one question relating to programme No. 7?

Chairman

Yes.

Deputy Kevin Humphreys

Subhead F3 relates to An Bord Pleanála. The figure for 2011 was approximately €13 million and for 2012 it was €12 million. I realise there are some fixed costs but there has been a significant reduction in the number of applications for planning permission going through An Bord Pleanála. Does this really reflect the fall-off in work within An Bord Pleanála?

Chairman

I wish to add one final question on the franchise and franchise offices. Thirty-four local authorities operate 34 franchise services. Depending on where they stand in the local authorities, these services can be Cinderella services or good services. Major reforms have been made in this area at the other end of the island. These accrued significant savings and resulted in much improved accuracy when it came to the register of electors in the North. Will consideration be given to the reform of these sections within local government such that we could move to a single franchise structure?

Deputy Phil Hogan

We are looking at the franchise section in the context of an electoral commission. That is in the programme for Government. At the time of a referendum or an election, the register of electors comes home to roost. There is an inadequacy in the system we have in place. I realise the Chairman has been strong on these matters in the past, especially during the last Dáil. By the time of the next election I am keen that we will have in place a more robust system which will allow people to have a more accurate version of events in respect of the register of electors. The current system is not working.

Deputies Stanley and Humphreys asked about the shortfall in funds. There is some time to go yet this year. Few people would have predicted that we would have collected 58% of a new tax without any database and by asking people to pay on a voluntary basis. Many predictions suggested the rate of collection would be only 20% or 25% given the campaign against it.

Deputy Kevin Humphreys

We predicted that the rate would be 62%.

Deputy Phil Hogan

We will have a significant collection but I have no wish to prejudge the outcome. We will send out letters to people who have not paid yet. These letters will go out shortly to remind people of their legal obligation. I expect that more and more people will pay at that stage. I am not considering the question of a shortfall now but we may raise the matter again during the July Estimates discussion.

Deputy Stanley asked about the Dormant Accounts Fund. The Deputy has made many representations. Many of us know of worthy causes, for example, those in RAPID programme areas. Those involved in these programmes would be very keen to get money from dormant accounts but it is tied into the general Government deficit and the borrowing requirement allowed by the Minister for Finance. The ceiling in place does not allow us to spend money from the Dormant Accounts Fund. The overall Government spending ceiling is limiting the opportunity for us at present.

Electronic voting is an issue close to my heart. We are spending €140,000 on storage at the moment. The contracts were entered into some time ago by my predecessors. I am trying to deal with this as expeditiously as possible to minimise the cost to the taxpayer. We have been engaged in a sale and tender process and I expect this to come to a conclusion shortly.

Deputy Coonan asked about the rural development programme. We have taken several steps recently involving the transfer of funds from one axis to another to ensure money was available. This was especially relevant for the food area, which was causing a problem. Many projects had backed up and there was no money in the system. We have allocated €5 million for that scheme. We have flexibility for the transfer of funds between measures as part of some of the changes we negotiated with the European Commission. I understand the Deputy's comments about agency hopping and applicants moving from enterprise boards to the rural development programme. That should not occur. They should be getting on with whatever they are eligible for, regardless of which agencies they approach.

I understand Deputy Coonan's point. Since the rural development programme is now 75% grant aided, some programme applicants might view this scheme as more attractive. If they qualify under the criteria I see no reason they should not be able to draw down money. However, there should be more co-ordination between the county enterprise boards and the Leader programme companies to ensure applicants can get their projects funded and up-and-running at least. They should also be aware that we do not want them going from one agency to another and playing one against the other with the result, ultimately, perhaps, that the local community or area loses out on funds. There is a finite period in which this money must be spent and it must be spent, not committed, by the end of 2013.

Deputy Noel Coonan

A lot of it is being returned by local authorities.

Deputy Phil Hogan

I am surprised to hear that but if the Deputy knows of individual cases I will have them checked out.

Deputy Noel Coonan

Everybody is surprised in view of the fact that there is a shortfall in local government funding.

Deputy Phil Hogan

I would not say it is prevalent but if the Deputy gives me the individual cases I will have them checked out with the Local Government Management Agency.

Deputy Jan O’Sullivan

On Deputy Humphreys's question about An Bord Pleanála, a reduced number of individual cases are coming to it but it has an expanded range of functions, including appropriate assessment and quarries. It has other demands, therefore.

Chairman

That concludes the sub-committee's consideration of Vote 25 - Revised Estimate for the Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government.

I thank the Minister, Deputy Hogan, the Minister of State, Deputy O'Sullivan, and their officials, Ms Geraldine Tallon, Ms Mary Moynihan, Mr. Maurice Coughlan, Ms Maria Graham, Mr. Philip Nugent, and Ms Finola Moylette for attending today's meeting of the select sub-committee. As part of the new way the Estimates have been presented today and in keeping with that approach the sub-committee would like to invite the Minister back here again in July for an exchange of views on the emerging position with regard to 2013 in which we might explore also the way measures are to be prioritised by the Minister for 2013. I hope that will be acceptable to the Minister.

I acknowledge the role of Mr. Tom Malone in assisting the sub-committee to prepare for these meetings today. The sub-committee will carry out its own evaluation to determine how we can pursue this new model of examining the Estimates in 2013 when we meet the Minister. Are there any matters arising?

Deputy Kevin Humphreys

I ask the Department to engage with the clerk and the Chairman on the presentation of the Estimates. I attended an earlier Estimates meeting on social protection and that Department presented the Estimates in a much clearer way which allowed members of the sub-committee to engage. There could be some engagement on that which could be valuable to the Department, the Ministers and the members of the sub-committee.

Deputy Phil Hogan

We will discuss that with the Department of Social Protection to see how we can follow best practice.

Chairman

I concur with that.