Select Committee on Tourism, Culture, Arts, Sport and Media díospóireacht -
Thursday, 8 Feb 2024

Vote 33 - Tourism, Culture, Arts, Gaeltacht, Sport and Media (Revised)

An Cathaoirleach Gníomhach (Deputy Ciarán Cannon)

Apologies have been received from Deputies Smyth and Dillon. Deputy Johnny Mythen will attend in substitution for Deputy Imelda Munster. The meeting has been convened to consider the Revised Estimates for public services for 2024: Vote 33, programme areas A, B, D and E, which stand referred to this committee by Dáil Éireann.

I welcome the Minister, Deputy Catherine Martin, and the Minister of State, Deputy Thomas Byrne, and their colleagues to the meeting here in Committee Room 2. As the Minister and Minister of State are present, it is not expected that officials will speak in public session. I also wish to advise that the opening statements and any other statements submitted to the committee may be published on the committee website after this meeting. Is that agreed? Agreed.

The format of the meeting is such that I will invite opening statements from the Minister and Minister of State, which will then be followed by questions from members as we consider each programme area. It is proposed that questions will be taken as members indicate for today's session, as we consider each programme area. Is that agreed? Agreed.

Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or any official, either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. I remind members of the constitutional requirement that members must be physically present within the confines of Leinster House in order to participate in public meetings. I will not permit a member to attend where they are not adhering to this constitutional requirement. Therefore, any member who attempts to attend from outside the precincts will be asked to leave the meeting.

I propose that we now proceed with the opening statements, and I invite the Minister, Deputy Martin to commence.

Minister for Tourism, Culture, Arts, Gaeltacht, Sport and Media (Deputy Catherine Martin)

Fáiltím roimh an deis labhairt leis an Roghchoiste um Thurasóireacht, Cultúr, Ealaíona, Spórt agus Meáin agus Meastachán Athbhreithnithe 2024 dar luach €1.2 billiún san iomlán do Vóta 33 do Réimsí Clár A, B, D agus E á bhreithniú. Tá áthas orm sonraí a sholáthar maidir leis na bearta suntasacha chun tacú leis na hearnálacha a bhfuil mé freagrach astu le tacaíocht ón mhaoiniú seo. Cuireann na hearnálacha seo go mór le geilleagar na tíre, agus tacaíonn siad le folláine an duine agus folláine an phobail ar fud na hÉireann chomh maith.

I thank the committee for inviting me today and providing the opportunity to outline and provide details of the allocations under my Department’s remit. My departmental colleague, the Minister of State, Deputy Byrne, will address specific measures around sport and I will focus on the sectors of tourism, arts, culture and media.

The allocations under the Revised Estimates for 2024 provide continued support for a wide range of key funding programmes and initiatives. The 2024 allocation for tourism services amounts to €218.6 million and allows for continued assistance to the sector, which has recovered strongly over the past year. However, challenges remain and I am pleased to have retained much of the additional funding secured last year to help the sector to build to full recovery. In this regard, as part of budget 2024, funding of up to €10 million will provide support to and will be targeted at those downstream tourism businesses experiencing particular challenges linked to the reduction in footfall in regions most impacted by tourism accommodation stock displacement from our support for people fleeing the war in Ukraine. This programme of supports includes investment in sustainable tourism development and promotion, industry digitalisation, promotion of domestic tourism and festivals and recruitment and retention initiatives. My officials and Fáilte Ireland have engaged intensively on this scheme and I am advised that the scheme details will be finalised and published very soon. I am also looking to the longer term in assisting the tourism sector to increase its focus on climate change and sustainability.

In addition to sustaining core capacity in the industry, the 2024 funding allocation will also maintain support for domestic marketing initiatives and tourism product development. It will allow Tourism Ireland to explore new overseas marketing opportunities, particularly promoting activities and attractions in areas that are still on the road to recovery.

In respect of arts and culture, Irish artists are continuing to reach new heights of international recognition, and this is the result of sustained investment in arts and culture in recent years, including the basic income for arts pilot scheme. I am pleased, therefore, that funding totalling €369.3 million has been secured for this sector for 2024.

This funding allocation provides for a record €134 million of funding for the Arts Council to build on recent successes in the sector. It also provides an additional €1 million in funding for Culture Ireland to enhance the overseas promotion of Irish creative workers. Culture Ireland funding will be €7.6 million in 2024, which is a record for the programme.

Section 481, Ireland’s film tax relief, makes it possible to and will further enhance Ireland’s attractiveness as a location for major international film and television projects, building on the remarkable success of productions such as "The Banshees of Inisherin” and “An Cailín Ciúin”. The extension of this film tax relief to the end of December 2028 and the increase in the cap from €70 million to €125 million will give valuable certainty to our film industry and is very welcome news for the sector. An increased allocation of €39.5 million for Screen Ireland in 2024 will further support our audio-visual sector.

The 2024 funding allocation will also allow my Department to continue to support activity in relation to: the Creative Ireland programme, including the innovative creative climate action measures; the continued development of our night-time economy; the second year of the three-year basic income for the arts pilot scheme; and the sustained protection and presentation of our national collections through the work of the national cultural institutions and the redevelopment of a number of those institutions.

Funding for the media and broadcasting sector in 2024 will total €304.4 million. This includes an increased allocation to TG4 of €57 million, marking a total increase of almost €20 million since 2019. This funding will allow TG4 to support delivery of its strategy, and ensure the provision of high-quality Irish language audio-visual content. This investment also provides for the consolidation of the new Cúla4 service, which will enable the commissioning of additional content for children as a priority audience. A total of €6 million is being provided through the media fund for the local democracy reporting scheme and the courts reporting scheme, both of which are at an advanced stage of development and will be delivered in 2024. These schemes will enable media outlets to provide enhanced coverage of issues of concern to local communities and are an important element of public service broadcasting in Ireland. Additionally, €40 million is being provided in interim funding for RTÉ, following on from the recommendations of NewERA, and is directly linked to the delivery of RTÉ’s new strategic vision. This strategic vision is a five-year plan that will demonstrate a renewed commitment to public service broadcasting, and address key areas such as governance reforms and cost efficiencies. This plan is vital as RTÉ seeks to rebuild the public's trust and confidence in it.

In closing, I acknowledge the ongoing commitment of my Government colleagues to the sectors under the remit of my Department. While there have been significant challenges in these sectors in recent years, they remain robust and vital. They form a key part of our economy, are essential to our identity and are core contributors to well-being and social cohesion across the island of Ireland. I will hand over to the Minister of State who will address funding measures in the area of sport for 2024.

Minister of State at the Department of Tourism, Culture, Arts, Gaeltacht, Sport and Media (Deputy Thomas Byrne)

Gabhaim buíochas leis an gCathaoirleach Gníomhach agus leis an Aire. Gabhaim buíochas le comhaltaí an choiste as deis a thabhairt domsa labhairt leo inniu maidir le Meastachán Athbhreithnithe 2024 ó thaobh an spóirt de. Is €209 milliún leithdháileadh 2024 do sheirbhísí spóirt agus fóillíochta, méadú 12% ó 2023.

Is tír mór le rá í Éire i réimse an spóirt anois mar gheall ar mhéadú ar infheistíocht leanúnach an Stáit mar aon le héachtaí ár gcuid lúthchleasaithe ó thaobh rannpháirtíochta agus acmhainne chun imeachtaí a bhfuil tábhacht ann leo. Laistigh den leithdháileadh foirmiúil anseo, beidh leithdháileadh méadaithe €1.7 milliún do Spórt Éireann in 2024 mar eagraíocht a bhfuil cúram an Rialtais uirthi as forbairt an spóirt in Éirinn.

Bainfear úsáid as an maoiniú seo le haghaidh beart ar nós maoiniú méadaithe a dhírítear go sonrach ar chur le rannpháirtíocht na mban sa spórt, lena n-áirítear réimsí mar rannpháirtíocht, oiliúint, feidhmiú agus ceannaireacht agus maoiniú breise chun tacú leis na coistí náisiúnta rialaithe spóirt; tá tacaíocht leanúnach le cur i bhfeidhm an bheartais náisiúnta spóirt agus an phlean ghníomhaíochta a bhaineann leis; agus tacaíocht mhéadaithe dár lúthchleasaithe ardfheidhmíochta, agus muid ag druidim le Cluichí Oilimpeacha agus Parailimpeacha Pháras 2024.

Maidir leis an gCiste um Bonneagar Spóirt ar Mhórscála, is leithdháileadh maoinithe suntasaigh €42.6 milliún é do 2024. Cumasóidh sé seo deontas breise do thionscadail a ceadaíodh cheana féin mar fhreagra ar bhaic mar gheall ar an bpaindéim agus boilsciú tógála, rud a d'éascódh cur i gcrích na dtionscadal seo.

Is féidir liom a chur in iúl don roghchoiste go bhfuil súil agam babhta nua den choiste seo, an Ciste um Bonneagar Spóirt ar Mhórscála, a fhorbairt sa chéad leath den bhliain ag féachaint don éileamh méadaithe ar bhabhta nua. Maidir leis an gclár um chaipitil agus trealamh spóirt, is leithdháileadh €34.5 milliún do 2024 é chun freastal ar ghealltanais tionscadal reatha. Leanann obair ar aghaidh laistigh den Roinn maidir le próiseáil a dhéanamh ar an líon is airde iarratas a fuarthas faoi bhabhta 2023 don chlár rathúil seo. Leanfar le tacaíocht mhaoinithe a chur ar fáil in 2024 maidir le mórimeachtaí spóirt ar nós cluiche ceannais sraith Europa Union of European Football Associations, UEFA, i mí Bhealtaine, Corn Ryder sa ghalf 2027, craobhchomórtas UEFA Euro 2028, agus iarrachtaí eile chun imeachtaí spóirt ar mhórscála ard-phróifíle a mhealladh go hÉirinn.

Mar fhocal scoir, creidim go gcuirfidh an maoiniú méadaithe do spórt 2024 le rannpháirtíocht sa spórt ag gach leibhéal cumais agus thar gach gníomhaíocht spóirt. Tacóidh sé seo le seasamh na hÉireann ar an ardán idirnáisiúnta ó thaobh óstáil a dhéanamh ar mhórimeachtaí spóirt idirnáisiúnta agus tacú lenár lúthchleasaithe ardfheidhmíochta araon. Leanfaimid orainn ag forbairt áiseanna spóirt i bpobail ar fud na tíre mar aitheantas ar an bpobal áitiúil agus ar oibrithe deonacha ar a bhfuil ár rannpháirtíocht agus ar rathúlacht spóirt ar fad bunaithe. Gabhaim buíochas leis an gcoiste agus táim ag súil le dul i dteagmháil leo agus le ceisteanna a fhreagairt ó chomhaltaí an choiste maidir leis an obair seo.

An Cathaoirleach Gníomhach (Deputy Ciarán Cannon)

Gabhaim buíochas leis an Aire Stáit. I invite members to raise any issues they may have with the Minister and the Minister of State in relation to programme A - tourism services. The overall allocation is €218.644 million. I call Deputy Griffin.

Deputy Brendan Griffin

With regard to the funding being provided to Tourism Ireland, I presume the Northern Ireland Executive getting back up and running will have a positive impact in this regard and for any initiatives the Minister might be planning on a North-South basis. I know this overlaps with the Minister of State's area too. Le Grand Départ of the Tour de France was one initiative that could not get going as a result of the executive not being in place. What will be the benefits for the work of Tourism Ireland of the executive getting back up and running? Will there be a financial benefit from the input from the Northern Ireland side into the annual funding for Tourism Ireland for marketing?

Deputy Catherine Martin

First, we are missing some members from the board of Tourism Ireland. I am looking forward to having these places filled because they have to be nominated by the Northern Ireland executive. Additionally, our proposed new chair of the organisation, Alice Mansergh, still remains as chair-designate. We look forward to her taking up the role fully. Obviously, though, there are great benefits in having Tourism Ireland up and running as an all-island body, to have us all working together and for me to meet the new Minister in Northern Ireland with responsibility in this area. We are reaching out to set up an informal meeting before the North South Ministerial Council meets, which we hope will happen in a few weeks.

Deputy Brendan Griffin

We know spending in certain tourism hotspots is down as a result of beds, and a substantial number of beds in some areas, being displaced because of the pressures that exist, arising primarily from the war in Ukraine and the need for refugees to be accommodated. I agree with this and this must happen. I am proud that as a country we have responded to this situation in an appropriate way. The reality of the situation, though, is that there is an impact on tourism businesses because of the lack of spending power in local economies as a result of fewer visitors being able to get accommodation. What financial provisions are there to try to assist these businesses and to try to lengthen the season and increase spending by the visitors who are coming by encouraging them to stay longer and spend more?

Deputy Catherine Martin

From our engagement with the sector and stakeholders pre-budget, the key issue was for tourism activities like adventure centres and experiences. I secured €10 million for a comprehensive programme of supports targeted at those downstream tourism businesses. My officials and Fáilte Ireland have engaged intensively on a scheme. I expect to conclude negotiations imminently as we are at the final drafting stage with extensive engagement with the sector and I think that is something that they are looking forward to.

Deputy Brendan Griffin

I know that the setting of taxation rates is not the remit of the Minister but of the Minister for Finance. In fairness to the Minister present, she has been vocal about the 9% VAT rate being the appropriate rate for the tourism sector. Does she still articulate that position at the Cabinet table? Is it still her view that the rate most appropriate for Irish tourism and hospitality is 9%? Is she concerned with the number of cafés and restaurants that are closing, and the number of small businesses that are struggling at the moment?

Deputy Catherine Martin

While elements of the hospitality sector are definitely part of the wider tourism ecosystem, I do not have responsibility for general hospitality or food services which are under the remit of the Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment, Deputy Coveney. That is why we have a joint tourism and hospitality forum. We met the stakeholders of that forum a fortnight ago. The real call we are hearing is for the split in VAT but ultimately that is a matter for the Minister for Finance. I know that the Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Enterprise said in recent discussions that the issue probably cannot be revisited outside the actual budget and he asked the hospitality sector to look at gathering hard data. Again, this lies with him and I know what they are really looking for is the split VAT.

Deputy Johnny Mythen

How much of the Brexit adjustment fund went to the tourism sector? Almost €8 million was allocated last year and there was nothing this year because the scheme had finished. How does the Minister propose to replace the funding? In what way will she adjust her budgets?

Deputy Catherine Martin

I must check that detail. Can I get back to the Deputy on that?

Deputy Johnny Mythen

Okay.

An Cathaoirleach Gníomhach (Deputy Ciarán Cannon)

Is anybody else indicating? No. I want to follow on from what Deputy Griffin identified as an ongoing challenge for hospitality, particularly in rural locations and places along the western seaboard and the Wild Atlantic Way. We still are somewhat in the dark on how we are going to deal with the self-catering conundrum that presents to us right now and has presented to us for a very long time. I know that this issue is not solely the responsibility of the Minister and is a responsibility that is shared by the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage. An awful lot of people work in the world of self-catering providing badly needed bed nights in locations that otherwise would not have them without their support and intervention. Are we any closer to finalising what the regulatory environment for self-catering is going to look like? The Irish Self Catering Federation, ISCF, welcomes, as I do, the creation by the Department of tourism of a register of self-catering premises. On the other side of the coin, the ISCF is very much in the dark as to what the regulations or planning guidelines emanating from the other Department will look like and how they will be implemented at local authority level. Has the Minister any comment to make on that?

Deputy Catherine Martin

Yes. On the short-term tourism letting legislation, there was a standstill period. It was originally due to end on 22 December 2023 but remains in place. My officials have continued to engage consistently with the EU Commission on that. We hope that there will be a positive response from the Commission shortly and then we will move as quickly as possible with the legislation.

I am acutely aware of the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage and the concerns, especially in rural Ireland, about getting visibility of the planning guidelines. I wrote to the Minister for Housing, Local Government and Heritage this week conveying these concerns and that people want to see planning guidelines ahead of the legislation. I await his response.

An Cathaoirleach Gníomhach (Deputy Ciarán Cannon)

I thank the Minister.

Deputy Catherine Martin

I can confirm for Deputy Mythen that the Brexit adjustment fund provided €7.75 million in 2023.

Deputy Johnny Mythen

In 2024, the fund no longer exists. Am I correct to say that it is finishing?

Deputy Catherine Martin

Yes.

Deputy Johnny Mythen

Was there any adjustment in the Department's budget to take account of that for the sector?

Deputy Catherine Martin

No, I just had a shortfall-----

Deputy Johnny Mythen

Was all the money spent that was in the Brexit adjustment fund?

Deputy Catherine Martin

I will get the exact number on that for the Deputy.

Deputy Johnny Mythen

Was there any money left in the fund?

Deputy Catherine Martin

I will get the exact detail on that for the Deputy.

Deputy Johnny Mythen

Was it all spent?

Deputy Catherine Martin

I will get that exact detail for the Deputy.

Deputy Johnny Mythen

Right.

Deputy Brendan Griffin

I want to ask about a number of initiatives that I was very keen to get into the programme for Government. I have been following up since about the wild Atlantic walkway initiative and the Irish Sea coastal route which goes from Carlingford to Cobh and along the entire eastern seaboard. Has provision been made in the budget this year to progress these respected projects? Both projects would be highly beneficial to the overall national tourism offering. The Wild Atlantic Way one could still argue is a fledging experience. As a motoring route its real potential is unlocked as a more sustainable, slower route. Similarly, the eastern seaboard has huge potential as a route along the east Cork coast, up through Waterford, Wexford, Wicklow, Dublin and into the North. Eventually I would love to see a cross-Border initiative that links the Causeway coast and with the Wild Atlantic Way at Malin. Is there provision to progress either or both initiatives in 2024?

Deputy Catherine Martin

I am happy to report that Fáilte Ireland is working on developing it currently.

Deputy Brendan Griffin

Is the Wild Atlantic Way initiative way ahead of the eastern seaboard initiative or will both initiatives move in tandem?

Deputy Catherine Martin

We will come back to the Deputy after we have asked Fáilte Ireland whether the projects are working in parallel or if there is one in front of the other in terms of their development.

Deputy Brendan Griffin

There is merit in both initiatives. They are very much worth pursuing.

Deputy Catherine Martin

Absolutely.

Deputy Brendan Griffin

There are sustainable and will serve future generations if we do the groundwork now.

Deputy Catherine Martin

Yes, I wholeheartedly agree.

An Cathaoirleach Gníomhach (Deputy Ciarán Cannon)

Under this heading, I have one final question for the Minister and the Minister of State, and I will somewhat stray into the world of sport because these two aspects are interlinked. In light of re-establishment of the Northern Ireland Executive and the disappointing recent news that a Grand Départ of the Tour de France will not be staged in Ireland in 2024 or 2025-----

Deputy Catherine Martin

It was in which ever year would work.

An Cathaoirleach Gníomhach (Deputy Ciarán Cannon)

With that challenge out of the way and we now having a Government in the North that we can interact with and encourage, would it be opportune to re-ignite and rekindle that project? I recall standing on a very wet Sally Gap in July 1998, and it usually is wet in Ireland, waiting for the peleton to make its way up the Sally Gap. It would be a nice 30th anniversary in 2028 if we were able to stage that yet again. I know that the project would require a substantial investment but the return in terms of pure hard finance in the form of bed nights would be extraordinary and also the returns in terms of marketing Ireland and its landscape, culture and people to the world, which is predominantly what the Tour de France is all about. The tour has worked exceptionally well for France as a country. The benefits are many. Could we approach our Northern Ireland partners and say we missed the boat on that one but to look towards 2028, which would be the 30th anniversary of the last time the tour was in Ireland? Is that something that the Minister would consider?

Deputy Catherine Martin

I worked well with my then ministerial counterpart in the North, Mr. Gordon Lyons. Of course I was disappointed when our bid fell through but there was flexibility around the year when we had reached agreement on examining a bid. Mr. Conor Murphy will now be the Minister in charge in the North and I hope that we can explore it. The Minister of State wishes to comment.

Deputy Thomas Byrne

The bid started before my time with the Minister, Deputy Catherine Martin. Our Department received correspondence from the Department in the North last summer saying that they did not really want to go ahead with the bid. They could not go ahead with it really because the political direction was not there. Had that letter not arrived I would have had engagements in Paris with representatives of the Tour de France and other people who were interested. I met the Minister for sport there as well and I said to her that we had an interest in it. So we are always interested in pursuing this.

I want to comment about all the major events.

The bed nights and tourism benefit are important but I am putting a renewed emphasis on sporting participation benefits from it as well. Cycling really offers that. I am glad to say that we were in a position with Sport Ireland this year to fund the Rás Tailteann and Rás na mBan with €60,000, which is a significant boost to each of those races. We gave equal funding to both for the first time. There has been a great welcome for that in the cycling community. The events they put on are fantastic. I was really glad that the Department and Sport Ireland could assist with that this year.

An Cathaoirleach Gníomhach (Deputy Ciarán Cannon)

I thank the Minister of State for that in particular. It has been very much welcomed by the cycling community as a whole. The fact that it is 50:50 between Rás na mBan and Rás Tailteann is a groundbreaking development which sets the example for other countries across Europe. Women's cycling in particular has suffered as the poor relation for the sport for many years. For Ireland to lead the way in getting 50:50 funding is very special indeed. I thank the Minister of State.

It would also be a nice synergy, synchronicity or whatever one wants to call it if we were to have the tour in 2028, rolling down the Wild Atlantic Way, and also open our velodrome in the same year. That would be a fantastic year for cycling in general in Ireland. Perhaps we could work towards that particular ambition.

Deputy Thomas Byrne

Absolutely. We are in discussion with the Department of public expenditure on the capital programme and the velodrome has planning permission. We want to see it built but we require funding in the national development plan to do that. We are working on that as we speak.

Deputy Catherine Martin

In response to Deputy Mythen, all of the €7.75 million was spent. In response to Deputy Griffin, €7.6 million was secured in the shared island funding for the Wild Atlantic Way coastal route for 2023 to 2025.

An Cathaoirleach Gníomhach (Deputy Ciarán Cannon)

We will move on to questions from members on programme B, arts and culture.

Deputy Brendan Griffin

I welcome the pilot programme. It is really positive. When the Minister was in previously, I articulated that the programme deserves all our support. One of the teething issues that came up at committee previously related to disabled artists who may be on a disability payment and effectively have to choose between one or the other. Has the Minister had an opportunity to have discussions with the Minister for Social Protection to see if this year's continuation of the pilot could iron out that anomaly in the scheme?

Deputy Catherine Martin

I have been acutely aware of this from the beginning. I have said that many times here. We are liaising closely with the Department of Social Protection and Disabled Artists and Disabled Academics, DADA, on this. I think what will probably emerge from this will be a key finding of the pilot programme. It is helping to really shine a spotlight on how it is and needs to be addressed. We are working closely with DADA and the Department of Social Protection on it.

Deputy Brendan Griffin

It is a great scheme. Any feedback here is purely that and it is very progressive. I want to also ask about progress in section 481 for non-scripted productions. Section 481 has been brilliant. It deserves all of our support. We are starting to really see that in the higher profile recognition of the Irish sector. Regarding that, will we see progress this year on the rolling out of the relief to the non-scripted sector?

Deputy Catherine Martin

It is something that our Department and that of the Minister, Deputy Michael McGrath, are looking at. It emerged in conversation during the last budget negotiations. We are cognisant of it and working on it with a view to seeing whether we can find a solution to it or way of assisting in the next budget.

Deputy Brendan Griffin

The level of activity that could arise from this would be worth pursuing and would create and sustain jobs, and build the sector here even further. I will use the cliché that it is a no-brainer. We should definitely try to implement it sooner rather than later. It should have the full support of the Department.

Deputy Catherine Martin

I feel positive about the possible budget outcome of that particular issue in the next budget.

Deputy Johnny Mythen

The basic income for artists was successful and welcomed all across Ireland. I know several people who approached me about it. They were thrilled about it because it opens up all that creativity and allows people to create. What does the Minister envisage as the long-term plan for it? Will it be permanent?

Deputy Catherine Martin

I have not been sitting on the fence on this. I really hope that the research will point to it being rolled out to all artists. Just doing the pilot itself is a signal to the world of how we as a country really truly value our artists. That is why I was determined to get this pilot scheme up and running. The research to date shows that it is making a difference but we will have to see more and more regarding the creative output and so on. It has been an amazing project in that it has given us data on artists for the first time, including where and who they are, what type of artforms exist in Ireland and the percentages in each category. It is a three-year pilot. I hope that at the end, the research will show this.

Deputy Johnny Mythen

Are criteria for it set in stone? Is there flexibility? It was confusing at the start.

Deputy Catherine Martin

There were set criteria to get onto the scheme. This is why the research element was crucially important. It was not just about the money but about doing really detailed analysis and research. We had the first report on that before Christmas and a stakeholder forum about it. We will see more reports coming out. I brought that report to my Cabinet colleagues to let them know how successful it is so far. That is where the research will really help to shape this if it is to be rolled out, which I hope it is.

Deputy Johnny Mythen

Is the report available to everybody?

Deputy Catherine Martin

It was published at the time, yes.

An Cathaoirleach Gníomhach (Deputy Ciarán Cannon)

I have one question on that. The Department already has extensive knowledge, wisdom and experience of operating a successful sports capital scheme and seeing the benefit that brings to communities across the country. It leverages and unlocks local endeavour, local fundraising and local work, and it develops a great degree of local community pride. Has any thought been given to replicating the sports capital scheme by creating an arts capital scheme? The Department has all the machinery, knowledge and technical aspects. It would not be a difficult endeavour to work with communities to simply develop arts facilities, instead of developing sports facilities. It is a huge void in how we invest in communities across the country. Does the Minister have any plans to explore that opportunity?

Deputy Catherine Martin

It is under active consideration. As the Chair said, we see the benefit of the sports capital and equipment programme for communities. I absolutely understand the view that something similar in the arts and culture sector could deliver similar dividends. It is under active consideration. It needs detailed consideration because there is the capacity in the sports sector to deliver and roll out, versus the arts sector. Any support needs would have to be tailored carefully to be effective. We are giving it serious consideration. In the interim, we have stream E. The cultural capital scheme is open on an ongoing basis for clearly defined arts and cultural projects.

An Cathaoirleach Gníomhach (Deputy Ciarán Cannon)

We move on to questions from members on programme D, sports and recreation services.

Deputy Chris Andrews

To echo the Minister's sentiments around the cycling and the tour, it would be really positive. I understand that major sport event funding will remain at €6.4 million as Ireland looks to develop as a location for hosting big tournaments such as the Ryder Cup, the European Championships in football and so on. My colleague, Deputy Mark Ward, and I have been talking with FAI and various interested groups about holding a match between Ireland and Palestine. It would be a great gesture of solidarity with Palestine in the face of the genocide that is being committed there at the moment.

The Government has been very outspoken about the need for a ceasefire, though in May of last year the Minister of State said Russia "must not be allowed to use sport to legitimise its barbaric and unprovoked invasion of Ukraine...". I do not see that replicated here when he is saying he is leaving it up to the sporting governing bodies to decide what they want to do, especially with today's match against Israel. Why the contrast in treatment between Russia and Israel? Israel has clearly committed atrocities and the Government has acknowledged that. I spoke with Jonathan Hill of the FAI and he indicated one of the restricting factors would be the cost of hosting a match like that with Ireland and Palestine. Would the Government be open to the hosting of an Ireland and Palestine friendly match? Looking at the crowds marching for Palestine every week, we know it would sell out.

Deputy Thomas Byrne

On the hosting of a match, from time to time the Government gives financial support to the hosting of particular matches or events. This year the Europa League final is on in Dublin and there is substantial Government support for that match and Dublin City Council is supporting it too. That has of course been in the planning for some time. The budget we have this year is the same as last year, but that reflects the spending that will happen on a certain number of events, including the Europa League final, preparation for the Ryder Cup and other expenditures as well. When we sought the budget for this year there was no other major event that was jumping out at us. The hosting of a match and the hosting of a Europa League final does not create the demand on resources that say, the Ryder Cup does or the Euros take. That is always open to consideration, as we always say. Any major event we support goes through the same rigorous cost-benefit analysis. The Chair outlined most of it. It is essentially about bed nights, tourism potential and also very much a new focus on sporting participation benefit as well, because we want to ensure we can get that out of it too.

I do not agree there is a contrast between my approach to Russia and my approach to Israel. I have been outspoken on both, but all along I have said it is a matter for the national governing bodies to make those decisions, as well as the international ones. At the last committee meeting, the Deputy was asking me about the boxing situation, where I was getting complaints that somehow the Government was organising a boycott of boxing matches because Russians were participating. In every statement I made on that I said it was a matter for the national governing bodies and there was no question of the Government interfering with the independence of sporting organisations. Any time we made statements about the Olympics it was very clear there would be no boycott of them and indeed when we had ministerial meetings, especially on Russia and Belarus, it was clear from everyone taking part in the meetings there would be no boycott. As such, we have consistently left this to the national governing bodies, to the organisations. They are in a very difficult space at the moment, because the fine is one thing - and people are saying the Government pays the fine - but they could potentially be banned from international sporting competitions for a number of years. It is not just the match today. There is another match later this month in a different sport and I am sure when people find out they will be lobbying on that one too. We have calls for a boycott of the Eurovision Song Contest not because we are in a head-to-head with Israel, but because Israel is in it. I have no doubt people will be calling for boycotts of the Olympic Games and these are not things I am prepared to support. I have to leave it to the international organisations.

I reject any allegations by certain people from the Israeli team who are apparently accusing the Irish team of antisemitism. That is wrong. The Irish team just wants to fulfil its potential at international level. Basketball Ireland are not people who are used to navigating international politics and these types of issues. The Government is doing that and as the Deputy has acknowledged, there has been a consistent approach from it on this. We have called for a humanitarian ceasefire. We have given considerable support to the people of Gaza via the humanitarian effort and the Tánaiste and Taoiseach have been really consistent on the international stage about this. It is to our credit that other countries have come around to our position on this, but make no mistake, this is a difficult situation for Basketball Ireland and for the team. I wish them well in all their competitive games. If we start picking on one particular game, we will be back in three weeks on a different game and eventually we will be taking part in no international sport because somebody will have a problem with us going to the Olympic Games. That is the reality and it is not something I can stand over. On Russia and Belarus, we are absolutely consistent we could not interfere with the international bodies and that is the answer I gave the Deputy last time. I am not sure whether I could describe him as complaining that boxers were told by their national governing body not to box, but I gave him a very clear answer that day that we were not demanding a boycott and we are not doing that today either.

Deputy Chris Andrews

I thank the Minister of State. He was saying we would end up not playing any sport in international competitions, but it is Israel that should not be allowed participate in any international sport. Irish Sport for Palestine has secured hundreds of signatures from elite sportspeople. The Dublin ladies made a magnificent gesture to call for a ceasefire. Sporting people get what is happening in the Gaza Strip. They get there is this horrendous genocide and they also get that Israel is weaponising sport and sportswashing genocide.

We have to go beyond just leaving it up to the sporting bodies. When a country is facing accusations and the ICJ has said there is a strong suggestion it has partaken in genocide, we must go beyond merely allowing it to be up to Basketball Ireland. It is unfair on the players, and five players have opted out of playing, but it is unfair on Basketball Ireland as well. This should be taken out of its hands. The International Basketball Federation, FIBA, should be taking it out of the hands of the national governing bodies.

Is the Government willing to consider supporting financially a match between Ireland and Palestine as an act of solidarity with the Palestinian people?

Deputy Thomas Byrne

On the international sporting situation, the Government and I have absolutely no influence or jurisdiction over any international sporting body. Those organisations work on the international level. Many are based in Switzerland and some of the really big ones are almost like international organisations themselves, such is their influence. They certainly do not take direction from individual governments, that is for sure, and governments are always very careful to ensure we do not interfere. That happens at that level. It is not possible for the Government to insist on telling a sporting organisation at international level what to do. If we decide to take a unilateral action which, quite frankly, will not be adhered to by almost every other country-----

Deputy Chris Andrews

The Minister of State means leading the way.

Deputy Thomas Byrne

The Deputy might describe it as that, but I will tell him what will end up happening. The events this week with the photographs and the allegations of antisemitism are absolutely wrong and should be condemned, but-----

Deputy Chris Andrews

No consequences.

Deputy Thomas Byrne

I am sorry, but the pressure before that was on Basketball Ireland. There has been pressure for months. There were protests up there in Tallaght for months before this happened. The pressure should not be on that body. I guarantee the Deputy we will have the same pressure with the next fixture that happens in a different sport which is coming up very soon. I can say with certainty that because people were calling for the Eurovision to be boycotted, I can only imagine there will be calls for the Olympics to be boycotted and I am not supporting that. It is wrong to do that and wrong for us to tell our athletes not to take part in an international sporting competition. I do not think we can do it anyway. There is the UEFA Nations League. We will not meet Israel in that competition, but it is in that same competition today. I have not heard calls from the Deputy or anyone else for Ireland not to take part in the Nations League, so let us have consistency about this. The consistent position I have had-----

Deputy Chris Andrews

We have called for Israel to be banned from international sport, so that would include that.

Deputy Thomas Byrne

Okay, that is a different position from calling for the Irish basketball team not to take part in a match. That is a totally different position. Sinn Féin is entitled to argue its point and go to FIBA or any of the sporting organisations and do that, but that is a different position from saying Ireland should withdraw itself from those competitions.

Deputy Chris Andrews

Has the Minister of State gone to FIBA? Would he not consider going to the federation and telling them?

Deputy Thomas Byrne

That is not-----

Deputy Chris Andrews

Taking a lead on it, rather than waiting for-----

Deputy Thomas Byrne

That is something that, in terms of the events this week, Basketball Ireland has done.

We will support Basketball Ireland in whatever decision it takes and give it whatever help it needs. Sometimes we have conversations with that organisation. However, we cannot get involved because we do not have a role in international sporting organisations. The Deputy's position is that Israel should not be part of this; that has been his position for a long time. However, that is not the same as saying that Irish teams should not be part of international competition. If he was showing consistency-----

Deputy Chris Andrews

It is actually competition against Israel.

Deputy Thomas Byrne

-----he would have made a different point at the previous committee meeting on boxing and he would be calling for the Irish soccer team not to take part in the Nations League. There has been an incredible focus on one team today when there are other matches coming up in other sports. It is not fair or right. We in government, particularly the Tánaiste and Taoiseach, will continue to work hard on supporting the humanitarian needs of people of Gaza, being really strong in calling for a humanitarian ceasefire and trying to bring world opinion around to our way of thinking. Frankly, many countries have come around to Ireland's way of thinking. The Tánaiste is in America today doing that very thing.

Deputy Chris Andrews

The Minister of State did not mention getting a match between Ireland and Palestine. Would he support the FAI financially if it needs some money?

Deputy Thomas Byrne

Every time we are asked whether we would financially support a sporting event or a match - we had it last year with the Katie Taylor fight - we ask people to make applications to the Department. If the FAI makes an application to the Department for that, it will be examined in exactly the same way as every other application.

Deputy Chris Andrews

Will it look kindly on it?

Deputy Thomas Byrne

We would look on it in exactly the same way we look on every other application. If the FAI wants to do that, it is more than welcome to do that.

Deputy Chris Andrews

I understand there has been a significant decrease in the sports capital programme. Is that correct?

Deputy Thomas Byrne

No.

Deputy Chris Andrews

Is there a decrease in sports capital funding?

Deputy Thomas Byrne

No, there is not. The funding that is there covers the applications we have at the moment. All the grants given out up to now are covered by the budgetary provision that is there. We are discussing the current sports capital round with the Minister, Deputy Donohoe, in the context of the national development plan review. I have been meeting clubs and telling them the reality of the situation, which is that the last time we awarded sports capital, €166 million was granted. That is approximately three times what the previous Government granted in the previous round. The demand this year is €359 million, which is huge. When I meet club representatives, I make the point that the demand has gone up massively. I am not trying to say there is a cut or that they will not get the grant or anything like that. I am just to stating that as fact.

The provision for the sports capital programme in the Estimates is €34.5 million. There is no reduction in that. That is designed to cover the existing commitments the Department has. We will be announcing a sports capital round, which is the awarding of the current application process. That will be sometime this year. The reality is that almost none of those grants will be drawn down this year. If we announce a round in May, June or July, almost none of them will be drawn down this year and, therefore, we do not have to provide for it in this year's Estimates. We obviously need to provide for it in our overall capital envelope and we are in discussions with the Department of public expenditure about the years after that to ensure we have the funds to provide for a really good sports capital programme this year.

Deputy Chris Andrews

When does the Minister of State expect the announcement of these sports capital grants?

Deputy Thomas Byrne

I am hoping it will be as soon as possible but with the very high demand for it-----

Deputy Chris Andrews

I am sure everybody is asking.

Deputy Thomas Byrne

They are. The departmental officials who work in Killarney are working really hard to assess all the applications. I know there have been allegations that it is not transparent; it is extremely transparent. They need to go through every application and score it based on the points system we have set out. That work takes a long time and it is currently under way.

Deputy Chris Andrews

Will it be in the next month or two?

Deputy Thomas Byrne

It is unlikely to be as soon as that.

Deputy Brendan Griffin

I might take up that point. The one thing I have learned is that the more we give in sports capital funding, the more clubs will ask for. I do not envy the Minister of State's position with a request for €360 million. I would have turned pale if I had seen that. I believe my first programme involved an ask of approximately €150 million. There were approximately €30 million worth of invalid applications, which left €120 million. I thought that was a massive ask. With it being €360 million, I do not know how the Minister of State will square that circle. It will be loaves and fishes, New Testament stuff.

Does he have a breakdown between equipment only and capital within that €360 million?

Deputy Thomas Byrne

I have that figure but I just do not know if I have it here in front of me. Certainly, equipment only is a lower percentage of the overall ask than it was the previous time. We do have that figure but I just do not have it here.

Deputy Brendan Griffin

Does the Minister of State expect there will be an equipment only round-----

Deputy Thomas Byrne

Sooner than the main sports capital round.

Deputy Brendan Griffin

-----by May?

Deputy Thomas Byrne

It will be sometime in the coming months. That would happen sooner because they are lower amounts. It also represents a lower proportion of the overall pot this time.

Deputy Brendan Griffin

That overall figure is stratospheric by comparison with what we have previously had. Previous provisions have been of the order of €30 million or €40 million and sometimes it was doubled up with two years' budget for an allocation. Even with that, the Minister of State will have a massive shortfall. It was fantastic to have that exceptional amount in the latest round. How much is needed to manage expectations for the next round? I have never seen anything like that €360 million ask, which is an enormous amount. What is the best we can realistically hope for? I know the Minister of State will not give me a figure.

Deputy Thomas Byrne

I cannot negotiate here at the committee. Everybody across the Government recognises the importance of this sports capital programme.

Deputy Brendan Griffin

However, realistically the Minister of State will not be able to come up with that sort of budget. I know he was able to do it the last time but-----

Deputy Thomas Byrne

I am not ruling it out; you must be joking. I want to get as much as possible. However, some applications will not be valid; that is the work that is under way at the moment. With some of the regional applications, the officials will determine whether they are regional. Some of them are highly likely not to be classed as regional at the end of the day. There are some very creative examples. We will see. Many clubs have gone top level simply because the last time a lot of clubs got the full 100%. If they do not get the full 100%, it may not be the worst thing in the world for some of them. We are trying our best to meet those expectations. We are up against the demands of the health sector, schools, transport and all of that. We are making a very strong case. We had a very good meeting with the Minister, Deputy Donohoe, and those discussions will continue.

Deputy Brendan Griffin

It is money that is very well spent and I support the Minister of State's efforts to try to get the funding as high as possible. He mentioned the staff in Killarney. It is a fully transparent system. There is a method to it and it rewards merit. Sometimes the charge is made that it is not; it absolutely is. The staff in Killarney do a fantastic job.

Regarding future major events, is there adequate provision for the Ryder Cup in 2027? Is the Minister of State confident that it is well provided for?

Deputy Thomas Byrne

Yes, it is provided for. These events are provided for in the year that they cost money. There are some costs associated with the Ryder Cup this year and there will obviously be more in the year that it is hosted. That is particularly the case for the European Championships; nearly all the costs will obviously be around the time it is hosted and so we do not have to provide for it this year. Regarding major sporting events, which will also answer Deputy Andrews's question, we will shortly launch a policy for major events. We have drafted our policy and asked other Departments for their input on it. It should be ready soon; it is almost complete. That will set a transparent and objective framework on how we accept major events.

Regarding the proposal by Deputy Andrews, I have no issue with having a match. We often get these proposals for major events in the media or in the Dáil and the sports bodies themselves have never been in touch with us at all. That has happened on a number of occasions in my tenure as Minister of State. I have seen people on TV saying, "Oh, we are talking to the Government about this" when I know they have not been. That sometimes happens. This policy will enable this to be put on a framework. There is at least one big one. The World Rally Championship is under consideration.

Deputy Niamh Smyth took the Chair.

Deputy Brendan Griffin

That was my next question.

Deputy Thomas Byrne

There is a proposal in the Department for that one.

That is under consideration at the moment. However, on the Katie Taylor fight, for example, there is nothing in the Department and yet there was much media coverage about working to get the match. We had no approach on that and no approach either on a match against Palestine.

Deputy Brendan Griffin

No-----

Deputy Chris Andrews

To clarify that, I have been engaging with the FAI on it, as has my colleague, Deputy Ward. That was a more recent issue. That is why I raise it with the Minister of State now.

Deputy Thomas Byrne

I have never said it. In answer to the Deputy's question on the equipment allocation, however, there are 723 applications for equipment only and they add up to €21.5 million. There are 2,487 applications for capital, which add up to €336.6 million. They are all subject to the assessment process for final verification, however.

Deputy Brendan Griffin

It could be dealt with rapidly enough. It is actually much smaller than I would have expected. Could I ask in relation-----

Deputy Thomas Byrne

I will just say something on all of this. I want to congratulate all the clubs for the ambition they have shown in applying for sports capital because they are applying for a grant of six figures. It takes a lot of work to put it together-----

Deputy Brendan Griffin

It does.

Deputy Thomas Byrne

-----first of all to get the concept, do all the planning, address land ownership issues and then put the form together and the fundraising that goes with that. I salute the ambition of all our clubs around the country that have contributed to this challenge we have in the Department to meet the expectations.

Deputy Brendan Griffin

It is very positive. These are volunteers who are doing these applications in the vast majority of cases. One thing that is also very positive is that there is a second chance now whereas in the past it was merciless for these volunteers. If there was one mistake in the application, that was it, it was put in the invalid pile and then there was hell to pay at AGMs, and stuff like that. At least the second chance is a very positive development. I know it is extra work for the officials, but it is something that helps and encourages volunteers.

Deputy Thomas Byrne

It does slow down the assessment process.

Deputy Brendan Griffin

It does.

Deputy Thomas Byrne

Let us be honest about that.

Deputy Brendan Griffin

Yes, that is fair enough.

Deputy Thomas Byrne

It is welcome overall, however.

Deputy Brendan Griffin

Does the Minister of State have an anticipated timeline for the World Rally Championship, WRC, application? I know he is very supportive of the proposal and of the application in principle. Is there a timeline for a decision regarding the funding? I think we all agree that it will be a very positive thing for Ireland and the regions. Without disclosing anything that might be sensitive, where is that at the moment?

Deputy Thomas Byrne

The Department officials will be coming to me and the Minister, Deputy Catherine Martin, in the coming weeks with their views on it. We subject all of these proposals to an independent assessment, so let us see what they say to us. Ultimately, however, it will be a decision for the Government on whether to proceed with this.

An Cathaoirleach

Are there any other questions on this section? Does Deputy Mythen wish to come in?

Deputy Johnny Mythen

I thank the Minister of State. The sports capital equipment grant is excellent. I met the Minister of State two weeks ago when we were down at the opening of the GAA centre of excellence in Ferns, which is a fantastic project and piece of work. As the Minister of State said, the people I met there were literally worn out with getting everything together for the capital grant and everything that goes towards the whole project . The work the volunteers do is amazing. The work that goes into these projects is amazing and it should be recognised.

Not to put a spanner in the works, but the sports capital equipment grant is down 21% next year. It was 43.5% and it is now 34.5%. What way will that affect the clubs about which the Minister of State spoke? Very often, it is the bread and butter of clubs to get a bit of equipment to keep them going. It keeps them above board. How come it is 21% down?

The other question on programme D is local authority swimming pool funding, which is another project that should be funded but has been reduced by 50%. People from disadvantaged areas use a lot of those swimming pools and facilities. What is the position on that?

The third question is on the large scale sport infrastructure fund, LSSIF. It was increased by 313%, which is good. What are those projects? Are extra projects coming on? Where is the money going? Is the 313% extra?

Deputy Thomas Byrne

I thank the Deputy very much. There are no cuts whatsoever to sports capital, swimming pools or the LSSIF. There are no cuts. That is the second time a Sinn Féin Deputy has said that.

Deputy Johnny Mythen

No, I have it-----

Deputy Thomas Byrne

It is the second time they have said it. What happened at the-----

Deputy Johnny Mythen

Excuse me-----

Deputy Thomas Byrne

Can I explain?

Deputy Johnny Mythen

I have it here in a report.

Deputy Thomas Byrne

Can I say-----

Deputy Johnny Mythen

I am just quoting the figures in the report. I am not putting anything to the Minister of State.

Deputy Thomas Byrne

The Deputy needs to quote them fully.

Deputy Johnny Mythen

I am asking the Minister of State a question. The report states it is -21%. I am just reading out what is in the report.

Deputy Thomas Byrne

What happens is that there is an allocation every year for sports capital. That covers the existing sports capital fund. Projects like the one in Wexford receive sports capital funding. When organisations seek to draw down the grant they have been awarded, it comes from that money. At the end of last year, extra funding was put into that, but that was to cover existing grants to make sure they would all obviously be paid out, as the Government had promised. Therefore, that extra funding was for the existing grants. It often happens at the end of a year that money is put in simply for administrative purposes. It was to make sure it happened last year rather than this year.

What I said remains the case. The funding for the next round of sports capital is still under negotiation. The money we have at the moment is in respect of grants already awarded. We are discussing with the Minister, Deputy Donohoe, what the needs are for the sports capital programme in the coming years. As I said, however, if we announce a sports capital programme this year, the vast majority of grants will not be drawn down until at least probably two years' time. Every year is different depending on when the sports grants are announced. In the first year, it is probably approximately 10%. It goes up a bit then in terms of the overall amount every year and starts coming down. It really just depends on when we announce it. I would expect that after we announce the grants this year, there will have to be an increase next year. We will see how that goes.

The swimming pool fund is a very specific fund that really does not exist anymore. The swimming pool fund was from approximately 20 years ago. Three swimming pools in Buncrana, Edenderry and Lucan were granted money sometime back in the 2000s and they have an entitlement to funding. That figure relates to them. That money has not been drawn down in some years, but it is there as a subhead to make sure it is available if one of them comes looking for it. As I understand it, Lucan is progressing, for example, although a bit more slowly than we would like. I have certainly contacted one of the local TDs in Edenderry since I was appointed to see how we can activate this because the grant is sitting there. In terms of swimming pools into the future, they are really under the LSSIF. Therefore, if any local authority or Swim Ireland or someone wants to build a swimming pool, they would apply under the LSSIF, not that fund. That fund has already been earmarked for years. It is not a discretionary fund. We would definitely invite swimming proposals to come in under the LSSIF. We hope to announce that soon enough. Again, the discussions are ongoing about that.

I was really glad to be down at the centre of excellence in Wexford, which the Deputy was at as well. I congratulate Wexford GAA, Wexford LGFA and Wexford Camogie, which came together to put a centre of excellence in place. They came together, and not just in terms of access, which I have been talking about because we need to make sure there is similar access for men and women. That is a new rule I brought into sports capital and the LSSIF. They also came together in terms of the administration of the place and the fundraising. That is really welcome. Quite honestly, we have a rule now in the LSSIF that there must be similar access for men and women. If the three organisations are not coming together, they will be at a disadvantage to those that are coming together. I cannot pre-empt any particular grant applications, but I think it is the way to go. I hear of other GAA organisations opening centres of excellence. A pitch for women on a Wednesday night or the small back pitch for women is not going to cut it. Organisations should look at what Wexford did because it is a great template. I really want to congratulate them.

An Cathaoirleach

If that is all the questions under that particular section, we will move on to programme E - broadcasting. Do any members have questions on this section or programme?

Deputy Brendan Griffin

The Cathaoirleach will be surprised to hear that I have a few questions.

An Cathaoirleach

Not at all, Deputy Griffin. The floor is yours.

Deputy Brendan Griffin

I have to go back to the RTÉ question. It is not going away, unfortunately. The more people I engage with and talk to in this regard and the longer it goes on, the more disillusioned I get with the organisation. I want to ask this in particular in the context of the bogus self-employment scandal in RTÉ of which we have been aware now for some time. The fact that it arose at all in an arm of the State is deeply worrying and concerning.

I understand that RTÉ is in the process of settling up with Revenue and the Department of Social Protection in regard to various legacy PRSI debts and other debts to the workers who were classed as self-employed but should have been employees. By effectively retrospectively settling these debts, RTÉ has acknowledged that these people should have been employees.

Is the Minister aware that many of these workers have had zero compensation or zero settlement for the time they worked for RTÉ? When they should have been classed as employees, they were classed as self-employed. The organisation has settled with the State but it has not paid these people and has not provided them with pension entitlements, for example, or with benefits such as sick pay or maternity pay. This affects a huge number of workers at RTÉ. Is the Minister aware this is going on? Has she been given a figure for what it would cost RTÉ to fully rectify those figures retrospectively in respect of workers who were incorrectly and, some would say, illegally classed as self-employed when they should have been classed as employees? There are also all of the other things that went with that, such as the lack of rights, lack of benefits and poor treatment that these workers received and, in some cases, continue to receive from the organisation. Is the Minister also aware of the threat of the legal avenue being the only avenue these workers can pursue when they approach RTÉ management about these issues?

Deputy Catherine Martin

RTÉ is co-operating with the Department of Social Protection scope investigation into potential PRSI classification liabilities related to the contractual and employment arrangements of approximately 700 individuals. What is very important is that it is addressed in as timely a manner as possible. I have no role in this regard. It remains a matter for the DG and the Department of Social Protection. What I will say is that we need to work towards having an organisation where fairness and transparency are paramount with regard to how staff are treated, and I have been consistent in saying that.

The forward-looking piece of this is the expert advisory committees I have set up, one of which is dealing with HR issues and contractor issues. The recommendations that come out of those will be crucial to the forward-looking piece in terms of how staff are treated.

Deputy Brendan Griffin

Does the Minister know what the figure is?

Deputy Catherine Martin

The figure has not been determined yet and I do not I think it would be appropriate or helpful for me to start speculating on it. It is not determined yet.

Deputy Brendan Griffin

This would be the figure to make everything kosher in regard to what these workers should have got.

Deputy Catherine Martin

The ultimate cost is not determined yet.

Deputy Brendan Griffin

Does the DG know that?

Deputy Catherine Martin

No, it is not determined yet.

Deputy Brendan Griffin

My understanding is that a ballpark figure does exist. Do we even have an estimated figure at this stage? Has the Minister been provided with an estimated figure?

Deputy Catherine Martin

No, I have not. That is why I think-----

Deputy Brendan Griffin

Has the Minister asked?

Deputy Catherine Martin

I do not want speculation around costs as I do not think that is helpful in this situation. There is no concrete-----

Deputy Brendan Griffin

It is not speculative to ask if the Minister has asked for the figure.

Deputy Catherine Martin

They cannot give a figure because the Department of Social Protection has not finished examining all of the cases yet.

Deputy Brendan Griffin

This is what I want to differentiate. There is the Department of Social Protection figure, and we know that is ongoing and it has not been rectified. Outside of that, there are workers who were deprived of the various benefits that come with being an employee of any organisation, let alone a semi-State organisation. In my view, RTÉ is completely abdicating its responsibilities to these people. When the workers protest and raise their concerns and issues, which are real concerns because these people are going to be left without pensions and they suffered enormously financially as a result of this mistreatment by the organisation, they are told to take it to court. There is an element of “Mr Bates vs The Post Office” about this. It is very sad to see that happening in our own country with an institution such as RTÉ. However, in my view, that is what is happening right now.

I understand there is a figure with regard to the Department of Social Protection side of things. Does the Minister have an estimated figure as to what it would cost to properly compensate these workers for what they should have been receiving over the years? It is not compensation, damages or on top of what they should have got. This is just to pay people what they should have got in the first place and did not get because of what was potentially an illegal act. I do not have a legal background but I would say it was very dubious behaviour by the organisation, and it may well result in a criminal investigation, although I do not know if it will. That is a separate fund and a separate cost. Has the Minister investigated this or is she prepared to step back and allow it? I do not think it is good enough just to say it is a matter for the DG and the Department of Social Protection. It is not. This has been ongoing for years and it has not been resolved. At the centre of this are the workers, some of whom have given 40 years of service to RTÉ, and they are being completely mistreated. Therefore, I think it is the Minister's business. She has to intervene to ensure these people get proper treatment.

Deputy Catherine Martin

There is an active Department of Social Protection investigation. As the Minister with responsibility for media, and having regard to RTÉ's statutory independence, I do not believe it is appropriate for me to start suggesting or interfering in how RTÉ should deal with staffing and contractual matters. That is the case.

Deputy Brendan Griffin

In the context of a potential further State bailout of RTÉ and in terms of the risks to the organisation of outstanding or potential future liabilities, surely this is a figure the Minister has established on top of the Department of Social Protection liabilities to employees.

Deputy Catherine Martin

As I have said already, we do not have that figure because it is ongoing. It is an active investigation.

Deputy Brendan Griffin

To clarify, this is the figure in regard to the Department of Social Protection’s liabilities.

Deputy Catherine Martin

We do not have that.

Deputy Brendan Griffin

Has the Minister also sought a figure in regard to employee liabilities?

Deputy Catherine Martin

No, we do not have that yet.

Deputy Brendan Griffin

Has the Minister sought it?

Deputy Catherine Martin

I am not going to seek something until it is concluded and they have the exact figure.

Deputy Brendan Griffin

Does the Minister acknowledge there are two elements to this? There is the liability to the Department of Social Protection in respect of PRSI payments and various other things that were not paid by the organisation over the years. Does the Minister also accept that, separately, there is an element in respect of the employees and what they should have received as employees versus what they were receiving as people who were miscategorised as self-employed?

Deputy Catherine Martin

Yes, there are two issues. There is the Department of Social Protection issue in regard to that liability and then there is the compensation issue. There are two issues. I agree with the Deputy on that.

Deputy Brendan Griffin

Has the Minister sought both figures?

Deputy Catherine Martin

Not while it is ongoing. As Minister, I cannot get involved. These are the mechanics in regard to employees and employers, and there is no mechanism in my Department to determine labour law issues.

Deputy Brendan Griffin

To establish the full picture of what the potential financial hole at RTÉ will be, surely this figure is crucial. This could run into multimillions and could dwarf what we have already lost in licence fee renewals and new licences, for example. Surely the Department needs to be all over this in establishing how much is involved, not just on the Department of Social Protection side but in respect of the workers who were treated rottenly and continue to be treated rottenly by the organisation. When they raise questions, they are effectively told to go the legal route, which is not appropriate.

Deputy Catherine Martin

For the individual employees, I am not their employer. It is up to RTÉ to determine that liability. Again, this is why I point to the future-looking piece and why I listened to the staff. It is about getting it right in future, examining those HR and contractor issues and making sure RTÉ then implements the recommendations that are made.

Deputy Brendan Griffin

On the Department of Social Protection side, the Department of Tourism, Culture, Arts, Gaeltacht, Sport and Media is actively engaging with a view to establishing the final settlement figure. I imagine that is happening at the moment.

Deputy Catherine Martin

No, it actually would not be appropriate for us to get involved in that. It is purely a matter between the Department of Social Protection and RTÉ.

Deputy Brendan Griffin

Is there therefore no provision within the Minister's Department for a potential future settlement with the Department of Social Protection and the RTÉ employees?

Deputy Catherine Martin

It is still ongoing, so no.

Deputy Brendan Griffin

Is the Minister saying there is no contingency and no provision for this?

Deputy Catherine Martin

It is ongoing, so I just cannot continue with speculation about the unknown. A contingency for a figure that we do not have-----

Deputy Brendan Griffin

We know-----

Deputy Catherine Martin

This is ongoing. This is live.

Deputy Brendan Griffin

We know that there is a liability there and this is going to have to be settled. It is not going to go away. It is there and it is going to grow. It is only going to go one way. In the future, regarding the funding of RTÉ, I would imagine this is surely going to have to be taken into consideration.

The Minister is conscious of the Department of Social Protection liabilities but is she fully conscious of the fact that workers there have not been dealt with and have not been paid? The State has been paid but the workers, again, are waiting. This is all happening in the context of people who have walked away from the organisation very recently, with massive amounts in settlements, yet these workers are being treated in a completely different way.

Deputy Catherine Martin

Regarding the second issue, when the full figure is established, that will become part of that overall funding. NewERA will have a role in that but there is no exact figure yet.

Deputy Brendan Griffin

Okay, but is it the case that it is now on the Minister's radar?

Deputy Catherine Martin

Yes, it is just on my radar but I am not speculating on an unknown figure.

Deputy Brendan Griffin

Surely the Minister’s Department should be establishing the estimated figure for that. I am quite sure that the director general knows that figure.

Deputy Catherine Martin

We are not involved in that. It is a matter for RTÉ, so we are not involved in-----

Deputy Brendan Griffin

As the Minister knows, the station is in dire straits financially. She knows that it is going to come back to her to financially support the organisation into the future. Surely, therefore, her Department has to be preparing for all eventualities. One of these huge liabilities that the organisation has is in its responsibilities to its workers. This is an area that has not been dealt with to date. They are trying to brush it under the carpet as far as I can see. The Minister is telling me here that the Department is not paying any attention to it.

Deputy Catherine Martin

Again, it is ongoing and NewERA has a role in monitoring RTÉ’s financial position. When it comes to a conclusion, that is when NewERA can step in and come to us. We cannot do a contingency for the unknown. As I said, it is on our radar but it has to come to a conclusion. Then NewERA will have a role in that.

Deputy Brendan Griffin

Does the Minister agree that the workers who have been previously classed as self-employed and who should have been in some cases classed as direct employees of the organisation for many years should retrospectively be paid their benefits?

Deputy Catherine Martin

It is really not appropriate for the Minister with responsibility for media to give an answer to that. It is just not appropriate. I have always said I believe the organisation should treat its staff with fairness and transparency. That is exactly why-----

Deputy Brendan Griffin

And in accordance with the law?

Deputy Catherine Martin

Yes, of course, everything should be done in accordance with the law. That is exactly why in complete recognition of that I set up a separate expert group to deal with these issues and to look crucially for recommendations going forward.

Deputy Brendan Griffin

The Department needs to be fully involved here and at least make a provision for what will potentially be a huge amount that will have to be paid. This money is rightfully owed to these workers.

The Minister also needs to speak with the chair of RTÉ about how these workers are being treated when they try to raise their plight. In my engagement with some of the workers at the centre of this, I have found that they are being treated absolutely appallingly by management. They have certainly not seen the change in culture that we have heard spoken about since last summer. If anything, they are seeing a battening down of the hatches, a circling of the wagons and a worsening of the culture. That is something that is the Minister’s responsibility to raise with the chair of RTÉ. It is not good enough that that is happening. On the licensing-----

Deputy Catherine Martin

On that point, that is why I set up a second group. There was only originally going to be one expert group. Having met the unions, I specifically set up a separate group on the HR issues, contractor issues, staff equality and all those issues that have been raised with me. I continue to engage. I even met those union representatives last week to hear how things are progressing. I am looking forward to hearing what those recommendations will be. There has been really good engagement by the staff with the expert advisory committees.

Deputy Brendan Griffin

Does the Minister believe that it is appropriate that the organisation would be referring employees to the legal route when they raise these issues with RTÉ?

Deputy Catherine Martin

That is an operational issue for RTÉ, and I cannot interfere.

Deputy Brendan Griffin

Does it concern the Minister to hear that this is what is happening?

Deputy Catherine Martin

Again, I will not comment. I cannot wander into an area that would not be appropriate for a Minister with responsibility for media to wander into. What I am consistently saying is that I believe the staff should be treated with fairness, transparency and equality. That is why the second expert advisory group was so crucial in moving forward.

Deputy Brendan Griffin

Has there been a further dip in the TV licence figures for the month of January? Has there been an impact as a result of the most recent publications of reports concerning issues at RTÉ?

Deputy Catherine Martin

The latest figures for the month of January are for 62,332 TV license sales compared to 67,764 last year. That is a reduction of 8%.

Deputy Brendan Griffin

Is that for renewals or new licences?

Deputy Catherine Martin

That is total.

Deputy Brendan Griffin

Is that for the entire month?

Deputy Catherine Martin

It is for the month of January, yes.

Deputy Brendan Griffin

Is the figure versus January 2023?

Deputy Catherine Martin

Yes. There is a reduction of 5,432, which is 8%.

Deputy Brendan Griffin

What was the overall loss for 2023?

Deputy Catherine Martin

It was a reduction of 13%.

Deputy Brendan Griffin

Realistically, we are talking about 26% for the second half of the year because it only kicked in on 1 July. What was the total revenue lost?

Deputy Catherine Martin

It was €19,783,360.

Deputy Brendan Griffin

Wow. That probably would have settled the employees’ situation. I thank the Chair.

An Cathaoirleach

Are there any other questions on that area?

Deputy Johnny Mythen

I concur with what Deputy Griffin said. I understand that the Minister is caught on certain issues but is there a time limit on the talks? Has she put a time limit on them herself?

Deputy Catherine Martin

On the reports?

Deputy Johnny Mythen

On the advisory groups.

Deputy Catherine Martin

Regarding the advisory groups, we hope that the reports will arrive at the end of February but when they are completed, they will have to go through the legal route as well, but we are hopeful.

Deputy Johnny Mythen

As was already stated, RTÉ is haemorrhaging money every week. The longer it goes on, the more the taxpayer will have to step in and bail them out. We all know that. There is a situation there. It needs to be sped up and brought to head very quickly. I understand what the Minister is saying but this is going to go on and on. People are coming in and out of the committee who are making excuses here and there. They are fobbing off a lot of stuff. At the end of the day, this is lying in the taxpayers’ lap. I think there is €40 million due in licences already and that will have to be replaced somewhere, so the Department should be on the ball on that.

Deputy Catherine Martin

That is why I have said that we will make this decision. Consecutive Governments have not taken the decision on this because they have been afraid of the political fallout from it. I am absolutely determined to take the decision but it is only right, having set up expert advisory committees to deal with this issue, to seek recommendations and await those recommendations. I should not pre-empt them. I will then move quickly to take the decision.

Deputy Johnny Mythen

As the Minister will know, there is a major fallout. It is falling out with the public as well, which is most important. It is not a matter of us in here; it is the people out there who are looking in.

Deputy Catherine Martin

Absolutely. Reforms have been implemented already. On the €40 million interim funding, RTÉ will be tied to the strategic vision and to seeing the recommendations being implemented. A group will oversee that. Key to all of this and to moving forward is to put a sustainable funding model in place that supports public service media. This is not just a matter of RTÉ, but all public service media, because in this day and age, it is invaluable.

An Cathaoirleach

I have a few questions for the Minister. I concur with what much of what Deputy Griffin said. I take the Minister's point that it is difficult and she has to maintain an arm's length approach but I would like to make her aware of the fact that I have met with staff too. I have heard extremely worrying and harrowing personal stories from staff, many of whom are women and who have worked there for more than 20, 30 and 40 years.

These are women who are still in that organisation coming to retirement age who will have no pension; women who have worked in that organisation for 30 years and are now retired with no pension; women who have worked in that organisation for decades with no maternity leave, no sick leave, none of the benefits that they should have been entitled to, that we automatically assume they would be entitled to, having worked in RTÉ. To extrapolate a little further, the Minister said that she is engaging with the unions and they are giving her a sense of where staff are at, and the most appropriate way to proceed on the reports she has commissioned and the work NewERA is doing. I want to tease that out a little bit further. Is NewERA going to be in a position to find that absolute figure before the Minister makes any commitment to RTÉ on its funding into the future? The question is what will the implications be. My information is that these could impact almost 700 staff. That is a huge cohort of the entire staff of RTÉ. Given that 700 staff might have to be compensated for their years of work, the maternity leave they missed out on, the sick leave they missed out on, for the Department's sake it would be hugely important that it be fully informed as to what that bottom line is going to be. Having spoken with the staff, I am very concerned about the real figure in terms of what RTÉ needs to continue, and what it will owe to those 700 staff. Would the Minister like to comment on that view?

Deputy Catherine Martin

Just on the first point on equality, I met the unions very quickly at the end of June or July. The very reason equality is included in the HR and contractors expert advisory committee, is that I was hearing about gender equality there.

It is important to let the Department of Social Protection get on with this work and engage with RTÉ. When the figure is established, NewERA will come in and assess and advise on the financial implications and the financial health.

An Cathaoirleach

Will the figure given to NewERA include the Department of Social Protection's figure and what RTÉ owes staff?

Deputy Catherine Martin

No, that is separate. When NewERA hears the final figures, its role is to advise the Department on the financial position of RTÉ and what funding is needed.

An Cathaoirleach

Is that the true and accurate figure, including what compensation may be owed to staff?

Deputy Catherine Martin

It is similar to how NewERA recommended the interim funding. It makes an expert assessment and evaluation of what is required.

An Cathaoirleach

Is the Minister satisfied that is going to accurately reflect the staff who have been there for the past 20 or 30 years and have not been on the right contract? Does she expect the figure will reflect what may be owed to them as individual employees who were not paying the right stamp or on the correct employment conditions?

Deputy Catherine Martin

I am satisfied that the Department of Social Protection is investigating this. The investigation is ongoing and the figure will be established.

An Cathaoirleach

I appreciate what the Minister is saying. She was very quick to go out there and meet with the unions and staff, but I can tell her from meeting with them in recent days that their position does not feel any more secure. Women are about to retire with no pension and all of those issues that I acknowledge the Minister is making a very concerted effort to address. There is a lot of fear there. When we meet with the staff on an individual basis or in small groups, there are stories of bullying and intimidation on questioning their contract. I agree with Deputy Griffin that when those staff question their contract, they are being told that RTÉ cannot do anything and the only way to pursue it is through the legal route. We all know very well in this committee that RTÉ's legal route involves having Arthur Cox represent it and it is completely unthinkable for any individual to actually follow through with a case. They are put in a position where they have no hope of getting their entitlements. They are fighting the organisation that acknowledges they have not been paid right or had the right classification or the advantages they should have had if they had been correctly employed. I do not believe they are telling me anything inaccurate or untrue. The only way they can follow through to get what they are entitled to is by taking a legal route. No individual could be expected to take on the likes of the legal might of RTÉ.

Deputy Catherine Martin

I did not only meet the unions last summer; I also met them in the last week because I am conscious of keeping engaged with them. I then met the DG and conveyed their concerns directly to him, as I promised I would. The WRC is available to staff if that is the route that needs to be taken. The forward-looking piece is key here as well in fixing this and getting it right.

An Cathaoirleach

I appreciate that but if I was in the Minister's shoes, I would want to know the exact figure of what RTÉ will owe those 700 staff in compensation for being employed incorrectly for the past 20 or 30 years.

Deputy Catherine Martin

I will know it when it has been established. One cannot seek a figure that has not yet been established.

An Cathaoirleach

I know that. I am just saying that I would like absolute clarity on that before I would make any commitment in the future. That is my personal view.

Are there any other questions from colleagues? We have covered every programme area at this point.

Deputy Brendan Griffin

I want to ask the Minister about free-to-air sports event in the future. Could she update the committee on where she is at in that regard and what progress has been made on it?

Deputy Catherine Martin

The consultation is on until 20 February and then we will look at the public consultation and the stakeholder consultation. The Deputy will have seen that I brought a list of recommendations to the Cabinet and that is subject to consultation until 20 February.

Deputy Brendan Griffin

What is the process after 20 February?

Deputy Catherine Martin

Then we will assess that. Ultimately, it will require a recommendation coming to the Cabinet.

Deputy Brendan Griffin

Does the Minister expect that this is something that should be concluded in a matter of weeks? Is it a rapid enough process?

Deputy Catherine Martin

No, it would not be. After the consultation, we have to review all the responses and submissions from the key stakeholders. That will be provided to an independent consultant, who will then assess whatever issues arise in the consultation. I would expect that to take a number of months.

Deputy Brendan Griffin

On the TV licence, has RTÉ recommenced advertising the licence outside its own channels?

Deputy Catherine Martin

It will recommence on 20 February as well, similar to the free-to-air consultation.

Deputy Brendan Griffin

Bizarrely, RTÉ has not advertised the TV licence since July, at a time it has been losing massive amounts of licence revenue. In that time when the €20 million plus was lost, the TV licence had not been advertised outside of RTÉ. Why did it take so long for RTÉ to recommence advertising?

Deputy Catherine Martin

I think that RTÉ had to put a new contract in place. In the early days after the crisis broke, it is understandable that it might not have been helpful and, in fact, it could have been counterproductive to advertise on local radio and other media on this matter. Then it was a case of getting contracts in place. I am informed that will now go back on those platforms on 20 February.

Deputy Brendan Griffin

Will there be a change in the messaging or a specific emphasis given that it is not just RTÉ that benefits from licence fee revenue and that independent broadcasters and news agencies benefit from it as well?

Deputy Catherine Martin

Yes, the messaging is not a matter for me; it is a matter for the organisation.

Deputy Brendan Griffin

And the independent producers. Will the Minister reconsider the fact that the advertising of the licence is almost nobody's child at the moment? RTÉ does it but at this stage should control be taken by the Department? To be fair, when the proverbial hit the fan in the summer, RTÉ did not stand up and we could not rely on it to do it. Does the Minister think it is something for which the Department should take direct responsibility?

Deputy Catherine Martin

That will actually come into the piece relating to the decision on the funding model. We want to move very quickly on that decision. Currently, RTÉ is the main beneficiary of the licence fee and it is moving to get the advertising back on to the non-RTÉ platforms.

An Cathaoirleach

I thank the Minister and the Minister of State and their officials very much for their assistance to the committee today. Is it agreed that the committee will go into private session to discuss other business? Agreed.