We will commence business. Does the Minister wish to make a statement?
WILDLIFE BILL, 1975
DEPUTY ESMONDE IN THE CHAIR.
Chairman
As the Committee will be aware, when yesterday afternoon's proceedings terminated members of the Opposition took exception to the procedure adopted regarding a proposed vote on section 7. I do not propose to comment on the procedure adopted or on the merits or demerits of what transpired. The position is that the Opposition are not here today and apparently it is not their intention to attend this meeting of the Committee. That being so, it would be open to the Committee to proceed with consideration of the Bill in Committee and, if time permitted, to dispose of it. I do not propose to suggest that we do that and I want to make it perfectly clear that I am not making any compliment of refraining from proceeding with the Bill, because I think it would be wrong to do so. I feel that yesterday's misunderstanding was due to what I must describe as teething difficulties in the Committee procedure which has recently been adopted. To proceed with the Bill in the absence of the Opposition would damage considerably the prospect of the future smooth running of the Committee procedure. That would be a great pity. At the same time, I am most anxious to get this Bill on the Statute Book. It has been under consideration for several years now. Not alone are my Department anxious to have the Bill on the Statute Book, but so are the Irish Wild Bird Conservancy, the regional game councils, the Irish Deer Society and the Field and Country Sport Society, all voluntary organisations giving of their time in the interest of conservation and sport.
Further, the fact that this Bill is not law, is embarrassing us in so far as the ratification of the Washington Convention on International Trade in Endangered Species of Wild Fauna and Wild Flora and the Ramsar Convention on Wetlands are concerned. I am saying that because I am anxious that the Bill should be passed and that the misunderstanding which arose yesterday afternoon should be resolved. Therefore, I move that the Committee stand adjourned until 11 a.m., Thursday, 20th May.
I am suggesting that because I think it will give a breathing space and a cooling-off period to enable talks to take place between the Whips of the Government and Opposition Parties. The Committee will be aware that a motion has been circulated in the name of Deputy Tunney which proposes to ask the Dáil to discharge the order establishing this Committee and to direct that the Bill be considered in Committee of the whole Dáil. Should the talks between the Whips not materialise, or if they should fail to resolve the difficulties which have arisen, an opportunity can be afforded to have that motion disposed of.
Chairman
Before we make a decision on that matter, are we agreed that that date will suit all of us here? In view of my position in relation to recent events it is only right that I should make a statement to this Committee. At the last meeting events occurred which have been the subject of comment in the Dáil and the media. I cannot take part in discussion by way of comment or otherwise in relation to those events because I feel that my position as chairman of this Committee precludes me from doing so. In view of what has been said elsewhere, I feel it my duty to the members of this Committee to make some form of a statement.
When we were discussing section 7 of the Bill I was very surprised at the disagreement that emerged among the members of the Committee. As we were about to have a division, a point of procedure and order was put to me by the Minister for Lands. As I wanted to be certain that I was correct in my answer, I called for the necessary Standing Orders. I had been advised that the appropriate one was Standing Order 70. I later discovered that the appropriate one was Standing Order 71. I read out Standing Order 71. This took a little time. When I had finished I looked at the clock which showed clearly that it was after 6 o'clock. I took the view that I had no jurisdiction to proceed further beyond the hour of 6 o'clock which had been previously unanimously agreed upon, and that I had to bring the deliberations of the Committee to a termination, which is what I did, as I felt that I had no other option. I regret that the way I have managed events has caused upset and given grounds for certain statements to be made which included such words as "connivance". I can assure this Committee that there was no connivance between the Minister for Lands and me. This difficulty arose because it was the Minister's first time on a Special Committee. I am a comparatively new Deputy and chairman of these matters and I applied what I thought were the legal principles applicable to the situation and brought the shutter down on the proceedings.
Considerable heat has apparently been engendered by my decision. I regret I have been the cause of dissension on what I thought was going to be a very useful discussion on a very useful and much needed Bill. I want to make it quite clear that I cannot enter into discussions on what occurred at the last meeting because of my position and I have refused to be interviewed on those matters, which I think is the correct attitude to adopt. It is a matter for the House to deal with otherwise. I agree with the Minister's suggestion that we should adjourn. If it is any help to wounded feelings, I say I am sorry for any difficulty I have caused. I felt I did right and I still feel that I did right.
It would be helpful to ask our clerk to issue, as soon as possible, a notice of adjournment until the 20th so that the members who are not present will be aware of our next meeting in good time.
Chairman
11 a.m. It might be no harm for the clerk to send out a reminder later on.
When there is a division in the Dáil there is a procedure whereby the division bell rings. This gives Members time to be present. There is no such procedure operating in relation to Special Committees. There is nothing to preclude Special Committees from having some procedure. A five-minute lapse should be given when a division is called.
Chairman
There is a lot to be said for the adoption of a procedure along those lines. That is all we have to discuss.
The Committee adjourned at 4.20 p.m. until 11 a.m. on Thursday, 20th May, 1976.