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Tribunals of Inquiry.

Dáil Éireann Debate, Wednesday - 3 November 2004

Wednesday, 3 November 2004

Ceisteanna (16)

Jim O'Keeffe

Ceist:

74 Mr. J. O’Keeffe asked the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform if, in the interests of justice and fairness and having regard to precedents established in other tribunals and the need to facilitate effective procedures, he will provide a mechanism under which persons (details supplied) can avail of periodic payments in respect of their solicitor and counsel of choice when appearing before or being represented at the Morris tribunal; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [27312/04]

Amharc ar fhreagra

Freagraí ó Béal (10 píosaí cainte)

Under the terms of the Tribunal of Inquiry (Evidence) Acts 1921 to 2002, the question of costs is solely a matter for a tribunal. The Acts allow a tribunal to order the whole or part of the costs of representation of a person appearing before it to be paid, if it is of the opinion that there are sufficient reasons rendering it equitable to do so having regard to its findings and all other relevant matters. Crucially, when determining whether costs should be paid, a tribunal may take into account whether a person has failed to co-operate with it, or has knowingly given false or misleading information to it. This constitutes a powerful incentive for witnesses to co-operate fully with tribunals, apart altogether from the other potential legal consequences of non-co-operation.

The question of costs for the first module of its terms of reference has already been decided by the Morris tribunal. Its modus operandi has been to complete the first module and then deal with the costs of that module. In deciding on these costs, the chairman made deductions in some cases and totally rejected other applications, where he was of the opinion that persons had deliberately lied or otherwise had hindered the tribunal in its efforts to uncover the truth. This power is not, therefore, some remote academic possibility, but a real and significant factor in the workings of the tribunal. It is also of relevance to note that costs are being settled on a modular basis which, when added to the urgency which the tribunal is bringing to its work, means that co-operative witnesses can expect to receive their costs much more quickly than might otherwise be the case.

The intention of the Oireachtas, in leaving the task of deciding costs to tribunals and in providing tribunals with the power to withhold costs from non-co-operative witnesses, was to ensure the effectiveness of tribunals. Therefore, I do not believe that it would be sensible for the State to dilute this power in any way, for example through the direct payment by the State of the costs of any third party. That has been my clear and consistent position on the payment of costs which I have maintained in the face of High Court challenges from a number of parties to the Morris tribunal.

Deputies should consider the significant implications that any change in this position could have for the effectiveness of the Morris tribunal. I do not believe that there is any analogous precedent for what is proposed here.

Additional information

While we are discussing one group of persons, a family, there must be a generally applicable principle on costs and not just an ad hoc arrangement for any individual. Any payment by the State of one party’s costs would immediately raise the question as to why the State should not pay the costs of other third parties, or indeed every third party. Selective payments would be open to the interpretation that the State is effectively coming to its own view, in advance of the tribunal’s findings, on which are the meritorious and which the unmeritorious parties before it.

At various times since September, the family in question complained to the chairman of the tribunal of their inability to continue to have legal representation for financial reasons, and the chairman recently made efforts to resolve the issue. I understand from a statement made by the chairman at the tribunal, that some progress was made by him in trying to secure the services of counsel who would act on behalf of the family. This was not acceptable to the family and the chairman decided not to continue with his efforts in this regard. Neither I nor my Department had any involvement in this initiative by the chairman.

Finally, I take this opportunity to say again what was said last week in the Adjournment debate on this subject. The forum now exists for the truth about events in Donegal to be exposed. I know the chairman and his legal team are pursuing the truth with vigour. The Morris tribunal has already demonstrated its effectiveness in doing so, and the Government has also shown its determination to take action on the findings of the tribunal. I call on everyone involved to participate in what is transparently a fair and effective process.

I ask the Minister to seriously reconsider this issue from the point of view of fairness and justice and from the point of view of the effectiveness of the tribunal. There would be no Morris tribunal only for the McBrearty family. It is surely a basic principle of fairness and justice that a principal party involved in a tribunal should be entitled to be represented by counsel and solicitors of its own choice. I ask the Minister to accept that basic principle in a context where he is represented and his lawyers are paid, the Garda Commissioner is represented and his lawyers paid, and so on. That is surely a basic situation and needs to be looked at.

It is quite clear that the Morris tribunal has done a good job so far, produced an excellent report, but the judge is now into a number of modules where the McBrearty's are absolutely essential. They want to give evidence and they want to be there to co-operate. The judge wants to see them represented. He himself made a gesture in this regard. Whereas he made it clear that he recognised that they should be represented, they want to be represented by their own lawyers, which is not an unreasonable request. There are precedents for this and I want to quote a number of them if I have time. There are precedents regarding the commission to inquire into child abuse, where the Minister for Education and Science established a scheme for payment of expenses. There is a precedent regarding the Lindsay tribunal, where the Minister stepped in and paid for the legal representation of the haemophiliac society that was before it. There is a precedent in Northern Ireland regarding the tribunal on Bloody Sunday. There is an old precedent regarding families appearing before the tribunal on the Stardust tragedy.

Justice requires that the family be represented. The effectiveness and efficiency of the tribunal requires that they be represented.

There is no question of injustice being done here. I stand by the tribunal and its capacity to do its work in an effective way. One of the powers that it has as its disposal is to grant or withhold any portion or cost to a witness who does or does not co-operate with the tribunal or who misleads the tribunal in any way. I do not propose to pre-judge the outcome of the tribunal in the manner in which the Deputy's question implies. Let me remind him that there are other parties to this tribunal. The family of Richie Barron is entitled to participate in these proceedings. The Deputy implied that there would be no tribunal if it were not for the McBrearty family, neither would there be a tribunal if it were not for the terrible tragedy that befell Richie Barron's family. I am not in a position to say that one witness before this tribunal is to be treated in a substantially different way from other witnesses. In the High Court I resisted efforts made to force me to pay moneys on an ongoing basis to witnesses who were later denied their costs as they did not co-operate with the tribunal and they deliberately mislead the tribunal. I do not propose to depart from that.

The McBrearty family is entitled to be represented by whoever they wish. The chairman of the tribunal, without any input from me in the matter, attempted to provide them with lawyers who would act in the conventional way in the expectation that their costs would be paid after the relevant module in question was completed. For some reason, the lawyers in question were not willing or able to do that. That is something which the tribunal has done its best to remedy, but it cannot show partisanship to one witness when there clearly are other witnesses who sought and were denied exactly the same facility that the Deputy is canvassing for the McBrearty family.

The judge specifically indicated that they should be represented. The only point of difference here is whether they should be represented by counsel of their own choice. There are precedents and if the Minister has the political will, it can be done. The Minister is involved in a legal case and he wants to have his own lawyers and that is not unreasonable. These people are before the tribunal. They have dealt with their own lawyers during the past seven years. Taking everything into account, it is surely not unreasonable that they should be able to continue and be represented in a situation where the judge clearly wants to have them represented before the tribunal.

I absolutely reject that. Richie Barron's family have just the same rights at that tribunal as the McBrearty family.

I have no problem with that.

So have members of the Garda Síochána who have since been denied their costs. Some of these people attempted to have their costs guaranteed in advance by bringing actions in the High Court and others made threats along those lines. The tribunal has not suggested to me that I should pay the McBreartys' costs in advance.

The judge wants them to be represented. He made his own efforts to recognise that.

The Deputy is either ignorant of the fact, or is wilfully ignoring it, that the tribunal has made a clear decision that it must have the right, in the case of the McBreartys as in the case of every other witness, to have available to it the sanction of withholding costs if there is a lack of co-operation. I am not fudging on the issue.

The judge has gone as far as he can. It is up the Minister.

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