Dáil Éireann Debate, Tuesday - 14 December 2004
1 Mr. M. Higgins asked the Taoiseach the details of the new open dialogue announced recently between the Government and the churches and faith communities; the issues that will be discussed in this dialogue; when the discussions will begin; the churches that will be involved; if it is envisaged that a final report will be produced; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [30104/04]
Amharc ar fhreagra2 Mr. Kenny asked the Taoiseach if he will report on the arrangements for dialogue between the Government and the main churches; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [32016/04]
Amharc ar fhreagra3 Mr. Sargent asked the Taoiseach the issues to be addressed in the new open dialogue announced between the Government and the churches and faith communities; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [32446/04]
Amharc ar fhreagra4 Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin asked the Taoiseach if he will report on the arrangements for proposed open dialogue between the Government and churches and faith communities; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [33289/04]
Amharc ar fhreagraI propose to take Questions Nos. 1 to 4, inclusive, together.
During the course of an address delivered in Rome during ceremonies to mark the 75th anniversary of diplomatic relations with the Holy See, the Minister for Foreign Affairs, Deputy Dermot Ahern, announced that the Government considered it would be of value to institute open, transparent and regular dialogue with churches and non-confessional organisations on the same lines as those provided for at European level in the draft European constitution. Accordingly, my Department will make contact with the churches and faith communities to invite them to participate in exploring how such a dialogue might be established and what its scope might be. When their views have been received, the Government will give further consideration to the matter and will decide at that point whether and, if so, in what way to proceed with the dialogue.
Clearly, the churches and faith communities make a very important contribution to the life of this country, not least through the participation of church representatives and church-based organisations, for example, in the National Forum on Europe and through social partnership. Any future structured dialogue which may be put in place will, of course, have to be open, inclusive and transparent and fully in accordance with the provisions of Article 44 of Bunreacht na hÉireann, which guarantees freedom of conscience and the free profession and practice of religion.
I envisage that any such dialogue would in principle be capable of addressing any matter of mutual interest or concern. I do not envisage, however, that it would displace the existing and ongoing consultation and dialogue between churches and church-based organisations and the various civil authorities in matters of their functional responsibility.
Will the Taoiseach be a little more specific? I think the British census of 2001 showed that there were 170 different groups who considered themselves to be religious groups. Is the invitation being made to denominations, organisations or those who are, in the words of Jacques Delors, of ethical disposition? Will the Taoiseach explain how this relates to the Delors initiative for a soul of Europe, an initiative which I understand has been wound up?
Will the Taoiseach comment on the issues and areas that would be part of this dialogue? Will they include for example the economy, issues of war and quality of life? An excellent conference on understanding Islam took place at the Chester Beatty Library recently. In what way does this dialogue relate to the United Nations consideration of a dialogue between civilisations? Is the purpose of this dialogue to engage with those who, for example, believe in secularism or pluralism, or is it to be seen as a force opposed to secularism?
The views being sought on the proposed structured dialogue are those of the Roman Catholic Church, the Church of Ireland, the Presbyterian Church, the Methodist Church, the Religious Society of Friends, the Salvation Army, the Unitarian Church, the Lutheran Church of Ireland, the Moravian Church, the Baptist Church, the Orthodox Church, which is the Coptic, Greek, Romanian and Russian Church, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, Jehovah's Witnesses, the Jewish community, the Islamic Foundation of Ireland, the Baha'i Faith, the Buddhist centres and the Association of Irish Humanists. We are happy to engage with other churches and faith communities that may wish to be involved — I hope there are not 130 of them.
The figure I mentioned is 170, though that includes the Occultists.
Would atheists qualify?
Clearly we are seeking a wide range of views. Deputy Michael D. Higgins is aware that this dialogue is taking place throughout Europe. A number of countries have moved ahead of the Irish position, particularly France, though this has nothing to do with Romano Prodi's statement about the role of religion in Europe. There are different arrangements with different churches in many European countries. An example can be seen in the concordats between the Holy See and governments of many countries. Some of these concordats have been of long duration. A recent example greatly talked about in Europe this year and last year is the establishment of the structured dialogue with all the churches in France, involving committees representing Christian, Jewish and Islamic communities. We intend to consider such examples. A number of countries have studied this dialogue in France.
There are two reasons the process has made good progress this year. Article 152 of the draft European constitution treaty recognises the identity and specific contribution of the churches as well as the philosophical and non-confessional organisations and commits the European Union to maintaining open, transparent and regular dialogue with these churches and organisations. This is seen as an issue that complements the preamble to and long debate on the European Convention. It is now being looked at as a way of building on the work done and acknowledging the inspiration drawn from Europe's cultural, religious and humanist heritage. This is an area in which a number of countries have concentrated on and developed.
The second reason is that while there has been contact in this country with a number of churches, through the years, and this will not affect relations with the St. Vincent de Paul Society, educational bodies etc., there is now a large number of churches with growing congregations with which we have no structured dialogue apart from meetings on an ad hoc basis. There is no formal structured dialogue with most of the churches I have read out to the House, quite apart from those which may not be on this list. The emphasis is on building such a relationship for the future.
The Delors initiative, which included seminars on the soul of Europe, was aimed at seeking to understand the nature of European citizenship. It included, for example, the humanists. It included another category, which I believe was called "those of ethical disposition". The entire thrust of it was to enable people to make a critique from a spiritual basis of what was seen, for example, to be an excess of materialism within the economic thinking of Europe. My reason for this question is to know whether this initiative is a broad dialogue in the character of the Delors consideration of a Europe that is not simply materialist but spiritual as well. My example about the humanists was made in the context of drawing on the Greek tradition which I believe might have been expressed in an extreme fashion, philosophically, in recent times.
Is it a broad consideration or a dialogue between the State as an organisation and these other civil bodies? Is the Taoiseach involving himself in a philosophical journey towards understanding what it means to be European, to include non-material and non-economic aspects, or is he reviving something that is in the spirit of a concordat? Concordats, as I understand it, were really treaties between the Vatican——
The Holy See.
——and other countries. We are hardly talking about an alternative treaty, are we? Are we to listen to, as it were, clerical organisational comments on State policy or are we talking about a joint initiative towards understanding the relationship between Christianity and Islam? Does the Taoiseach agree that an opportunity was missed during the Irish Presidency for having that as a consideration?
The Humanist Association of Ireland is one of the organisations involved. As regards what I have said about the European context, member countries are starting to do this. Such thinking was revived during the debate on the European constitution, prior to the Irish Presidency when it was at the Convention stage. It was agreed that there should be association and dialogue with the churches. As I said in my reply, we have not agreed an administrative basis on how this is to work before we seek the views of the people involved, which we will do.
As for the Deputy's questions on issues, all issues from all groups that share mutual interests and concerns may in principle be covered by such a dialogue. I do not envisage that this process will displace the existing well-established lines of communication between churches. There are times when the churches collectively give their views on issues either to my Department or other Departments. They tend to do this collectively, mainly the Roman Catholic, Church of Ireland, Presbyterian and Methodist churches. Many of the others have no means or structure of communication.
It is to give them that basis of dialogue and we will see if there is an interest. I assume there will be, from what I hear. We will then see how best we can structure it.
When does the Taoiseach see it all starting?
We either have written to these organisations and churches, or are about to do so. It will happen from now.
When the Taoiseach speaks of dialogue between the churches, organisations and the Government, is he referring to the Cabinet? The Taoiseach and the Ministers are obviously very busy with a whole programme of meetings. I want to put forward an idea to the Taoiseach and I know the Ceann Comhairle will not rule me out of order. In respect of civic and moral issues, perhaps the Government should consider a greater use of the Presidency in the dialogue. A full-time officer of the State could be appointed to liaise with the President, who is in communication with the churches on a more regular basis on matters of civic and moral concern. That officer would have reflections of the Council of State made available to him and the Cabinet could be very well briefed on a whole range of civic and moral issues. The advantage is that these issues would be reflected upon through the President, the Council of State and the churches. Conducting these moral and civic issues through a permanent officer of the State might save time for the Government and give it a detailed analysis of those issues that might be of concern.
At this stage, it is open as to how we can deal with this. My Department is inviting the churches and faith communities to participate in exploring how such dialogue might be established and what its scope might be.
The Taoiseach should throw it out as an idea.
There is merit in having someone who is co-ordinating it on an ongoing basis, otherwise it will not work. Traditionally, there would have been contact with what we consider to be the churches, but that list of churches is very different to what it was ten years ago. Therefore, it has to be co-ordinated in some way. I do not want this to be seen as a replacement for what works very well in education, health and other areas. The role of the President and the Council of State could be developed where it is appropriate. At this stage, we should wait for the response of the different organisations. It is a very formal relationship in other countries and I do not wish to go back to concordats, which are very regimented. We should find a format on the basis of mutual concern. Concordats only occur with the Holy See, so that would create an instant difficulty with the other churches. As part of the exploration, we will look at the Deputy's suggestion.
The Taoiseach stated that he has written to the organisations. What role does his Department have in this? Although there was an announcement from the Minister for Foreign Affairs, the Taoiseach's Department was also to have a specific involvement. How often do these dialogues take place? Is there any plan to facilitate them?
I am not sure which non-confessional organisations are involved. Could the Taoiseach give a few examples? I am familiar with some of the churches and some of the philosophical organisations, but I have little familiarity with non-confessional organisations. Perhaps the Taoiseach would give a few examples.
How will this dialogue work alongside a provision in the Good Friday Agreement which provided for a civic forum? Will that civic forum be established in parallel with this or will this be an aspect or widening of the civic forum? Where stands the civic forum in the context of this dialogue, both North and South? Is this dialogue all-island based, given that many of the churches are organised on an all-island basis, or will it have a regional basis?
This has nothing to do with the proposal on the civic forum. That stands alone and should not be seen otherwise. Many of these churches, such as the Unitarian Church, the Lutheran Church, the Moravian Church, Jehovah's Witnesses, Buddhist centres and the Humanist Association of Ireland, which is a broad organisation, are examples that come within the category. My Department has traditionally, since the foundation of the State——
Which is non-confessional?
I understand some of these are, although I do not know which. My Department has traditionally dealt with the broader issues that applied across Departments with regard to the churches. They can obviously deal directly with Departments. It has been the practice that the leaders of the churches would call annually or biannually at the Department of the Taoiseach.
How the dialogue will be structured is undecided. Deputy Kenny suggested that it could be structured in a different way. My Department's task is to co-ordinate the dialogue. We have not come to a decision on how it will ultimately be set up. We have to see what type of dialogue is envisaged and which churches will be interested in it. All that work will take place as soon as we receive submissions from the churches.
I welcome the proposed dialogue between the Government and the various religious bodies. I represent a constituency which has a great diversity of Christian faiths and, in recent years, other faiths. There is a great spirit of common purpose for the good of the community and that has been demonstrated through the most difficult years in our recent history. I presume the list of proposed churches mentioned by the Taoiseach is not definitive and is open to addition. There are a number of Pentecostalist churches, including the Elim Pentecostalist Church which was founded in my home town many decades ago. I note the Taoiseach did not include a reference to the Free Presbyterians, lest anybody accuses me of leaving them out and, God forbid, that the Taoiseach might.
I never would.
That is the second time I heard "God forbid" today.
With regard to the proposed dialogue, will the Taoiseach outline a prospective timeframe for when he expects progress to be made towards this objective? How soon does he expect direct contact responses and the initiation of the process? Will it proceed in 2005? Will the Taoiseach provide an occasional report to the House on progress in this regard?
The principle of structured dialogue with the churches, as I explained previously, applies at European level and it is equally valid that it be applicable at national level. It would be an anomaly if such recognition and dialogue occurred in one important area at European level but not at home. We are dealing with a more diverse range of churches and faith communities than in the past. The multicultural reality requires a new system and a different response from the civil authority, while continuing to respect the rights of the churches we have continually dealt with. The number of churches involved is open. It will be a matter for churches to decide individually if they wish to participate. We will consider how other countries, which I am told are doing well, operate such systems. The French have put much effort into it recently. We have put in place arrangements to allow representatives of various churches and associations to give their views and will encourage them to do so. The announcement by the Minister for Foreign Affairs has been referred to in most church publications.
In principle, all issues of mutual interest and concern are on the agenda to be considered in any dialogue. We will see if we can create a process as long as it does not change anything which has been established and is working very well. This is an opportunity for enhanced dialogue on questions of the status of churches and their role in society generally on the one hand and on their views on social policy and other issues on the other. The agenda is open and the process is not an effort to confine it. We will try to do this quickly and I hope to have the process up and running during 2005.
First, we must await the response of the churches to see if they are interested. There is not much point in doing a great deal of work if they are not. I understand there is interest from the traditional churches which represent the larger part of the population and from newer churches which feel they have no dialogue beyond the meetings they can arrange on an ad hoc basis. The initial consultation will commence in the new year after which we will correspond with all the organisations to see what views come forward. I have no doubt that will happen very quickly and that we will finalise the arrangements as soon as possible. We can then decide how it is best placed.
