I will call on the Deputies who tabled questions to the Ministers for Transport and Education and Science in the order in which they submitted their questions to my office.
Wednesday, 5 April 2006
Ceisteanna (22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32)
Freagraí ó Béal (60 píosaí cainte)
Olivia Mitchell
Ceist:Ms O. Mitchell asked the Minister for Education and Science if she will make a statement on the standards required of privately hired school buses, if she will ensure a full investigation into the cause of Tuesday’s accident and if she will publish the details of such investigations, acknowledging the fact that reports into the recent school bus crash in Navan in May 2005 have not been published.
Amharc ar fhreagra
Jan O'Sullivan
Ceist:Ms O’Sullivan asked the Minister for Education and Science the latest information regarding the circumstances of a crash yesterday involving a school bus near Clara, County Offaly, in which one boy died and many others were injured; the investigation which will be held into the circumstances of the crash; and if she will make a statement on the matter.
Amharc ar fhreagra
Róisín Shortall
Ceist:Ms Shortall asked the Minister for Education and Science the investigation which is planned into the circumstances of a crash yesterday involving a school bus near Clara, County Offaly, in which one boy died and many others were injured; if a review of safety standards on school buses is planned in view of this crash; when it will be expected that all school buses will be equipped with seat belts; and if she will make a statement on the matter.
Amharc ar fhreagra
Eamon Ryan
Ceist:Mr. Eamon Ryan asked the Minister for Education and Science the arrangements which have been put in place to improve passenger safety on school bus services in view of the incident in May 2005 and a further fatal crash yesterday involving a school bus.
Amharc ar fhreagraJan O'Sullivan
Ceist:Ms O’Sullivan asked the Minister for Transport the latest information regarding the circumstances of a crash yesterday involving a school bus near Clara, County Offaly, in which one boy died and many others were injured; the investigation which will be held into the circumstances of the crash; and if he will make a statement on the matter.
Amharc ar fhreagraRóisín Shortall
Ceist:Ms Shortall asked the Minister for Transport the investigation which is planned into the circumstances of a crash yesterday involving a school bus near Clara, County Offaly, in which one boy died and many others were injured; if a review of safety standards on school buses is planned in view of this crash; when it will be expected that all school buses will be equipped with seat belts; and if he will make a statement on the matter.
Amharc ar fhreagraEamon Ryan
Ceist:Mr. Eamon Ryan asked the Minister for Transport the arrangements which have been put in place to improve passenger safety on school bus services in view of the incident in May 2005 and a further fatal crash yesterday involving a school bus.
Amharc ar fhreagraOlivia Mitchell
Ceist:Ms O. Mitchell asked the Minister for Transport if he will make a statement on the standards required of privately hired school buses; if he will ensure a full investigation into the cause of Tuesday’s accident; and if he will publish the details of such investigations, acknowledging the fact that reports into the recent school bus crash in Navan in May 2005 have not been published.
Amharc ar fhreagra
Olwyn Enright
Ceist:Ms Enright asked the Minister for Transport if he will make a full statement on the tragic bus accident in County Offaly yesterday; the measures which are being taken to investigate the full circumstances surrounding this accident; the actions which are being taken and progress made in improving bus safety for all schoolgoing children; and if safety standards on buses operating outside the school transport scheme but which carry children to school will be enhanced.
Amharc ar fhreagra
Seán Crowe
Ceist:Mr. Crowe asked the Minister for Transport if he will make a statement on the actions he plans to take, in view of yesterday’s tragic school bus accident, to ensure the improvement of road safety in respect of school buses.
Amharc ar fhreagraJan O'Sullivan
Ceist:Ms O’Sullivan asked the Minister for Transport to make a full statement on yesterday’s bus crash and, specifically, the issue of privately contracted school buses; and to convey our sympathies to the White family and the children who were directly involved in the accident.
Amharc ar fhreagra
I propose to take all the questions together.
I extend my sincere sympathy to Michael and Martina White on the tragic death of their only son, Michael, in yesterday's bus accident. I also offer my sympathy to Ciara on the loss of her brother. Our priority in the immediate aftermath of this tragic accident is to look after and support the bereaved family, the injured and traumatised children and their families. My colleagues, the Minister for Education and Science, Deputy Hanafin, and the Minister for Finance, Deputy Cowen, visited the families to offer their condolences and support. Counselling services have been made available for the families and the school children. Of those injured, I am pleased to say that almost all have been discharged from hospital.
I commend the emergency services for the speedy manner in which they responded to yesterday's accident. The caring and professional manner in which all the services carried out their difficult jobs is greatly appreciated by all of us and I thank them.
The Garda Síochána is investigating fully the circumstances surrounding this tragic event to establish the causes, contributory or otherwise. The primary immediate investigative role in respect of road accidents is vested in the Garda Síochána under the Road Traffic Acts. Priority in such an investigation must be given to the determination of the causes of road accidents, including, where appropriate, road construction or surface standards and, in particular, whether a breach of the road traffic laws contributed to the occurrence. The Garda Síochána is the body empowered to make such a determination and launch criminal proceedings against any person it considers should be accused of the commission of an offence. Any follow-up action arising from these investigations is done through the Office of the Director of Public Prosecutions. The House will, therefore, appreciate that it would be inappropriate of me to comment further on the matter at this stage.
Concerning the Kentstown bus accident last year, investigations have been undertaken by the Health and Safety Authority, Bus Éireann and the Garda Síochána. I do not have the reports from those investigations and am aware that proceedings are currently before the courts. I would not wish to say anything that might prejudice these or other proceedings that may be taken. I hope the House understands my position.
Yesterday's tragic accident less than 12 months after the Kentstown school bus accident understandably puts the issue of bus safety under the spotlight. The Government fully appreciates the concerns of parents and the public about the safety of buses used by children. I would like to outline the arrangements in place to ensure that buses using the roads are safe. An extensive range of requirements must be satisfied to use a bus in a public place, with the vehicle, the driver and the operator each subject to regulation. In the case of the vehicle, it must meet the requirements specified in a series of regulations relating to the construction, equipment and use of vehicles.
Safety standards applied under these regulations relate to, among others, brakes, steering, tyres, suspension, lighting, doors, emergency exits, access to exits and maximum passenger accommodation. Regulations made last December extended the requirement for speed limiters to be fitted to every bus first registered since October 2001. Single deck buses are subject to maximum speed limits of 80 km/h, with double deck buses subject to a maximum speed limit of 65 km/h. Buses over one year old are subject to annual inspections to determine their road worthiness. I understand that the bus involved in yesterday's accident was the subject of a successful road worthiness test in September 2005.
The issue of school bus safety has been prominent in recent years, particularly so since the Kentstown bus accident last May. Before that accident, the Department of Education and Science had been working on proposals for phasing out the three for two concession on school buses. Following that accident, the Government set up a working group comprising representatives of the Departments of Education and Science, Transport and Finance and Bus Éireann to progress measures to enhance school bus safety.
In July 2005, following recommendations from the working group, the Minister for Education and Science, Deputy Hanafin, and the Minister of State at the Department of Education and Science, Deputy de Valera, announced a package of measures to enhance the safety of school transport operations. The measures included the phasing out of three for two seating on post-primary services by the end of December 2005 and on primary services by the end of December 2006, the acquisition of additional buses by Bus Éireann, the hiring of additional private vehicles to meet the consequential capacity shortfall, the immediate fitting of seat belts on the Bus Éireann school bus fleet and setting a target date of December 2006 for private buses in the scheme to be fitted with approved seat belts.
The decision on the three for two seating concession recognised that, under Directive 2003/20, this concession would no longer be permitted on buses fitted with safety belts after May 2008. As the House knows, the deadline has been brought forward to the end of 2006 for school buses contracted by Bus Éireann. Obviously, Directive 2003/20 also requires safety belts to be used where they are fitted. Therefore, the effect of Directive 2003/20 will be to make the wearing of seat belts on buses, including school buses, mandatory where they are fitted. At this stage, one for one seating is in place on all but 31 of the 2,500 post-primary services. Additional capacity has been created by hiring an extra 225 vehicles from private contractors and the acquisition of additional buses by Bus Éireann.
The regulatory framework governing safety belts is handled at European level and is addressed through requirements targeted at the vehicles and their occupants. The technical standards for the fitment of safety belts in new vehicles are set down in a number of EU-type approval directives. With regard to buses, these standards are currently obligatory for small minibuses only. Following the adoption of a number of directives by the Council of Ministers and the European Parliament last September, the existing technical standards for the fitment of safety belts in motor vehicles will be mandatory for all new buses entering into service from 20 October 2007. The only exception is for buses used on stage-stop urban services, for example, Dublin Bus services. These EU directives do not require the retrofitting of seat belts.
While small minibuses are currently the only buses required by law to have safety belts fitted, larger buses are not precluded from being fitted with safety belts to the EU-type approval standard at manufacturing stage. There is clear evidence of this in the many new buses that have entered the market with safety belts. In recent years, a significant number of large buses entering into service have been fitted with safety belts. Directive 2003/20, to which I referred, relates to the requirement to wear safety belts once they are fitted. It also provides that passengers of buses must be advised that seat belt wearing is compulsory. This can be done by a number of different means — announcement by the driver or conductor, audio-visual means, signs, pictograms etc.
The feasibility of retrofitting safety belts in existing school buses was considered by the working group, which consulted on the matter with national experts in a number of EU countries as well as with the European Commission. In considering a retrofit programme in existing school buses, it was the view that any retrofit specification would need to be as consistent as practicable with the EU standards for new vehicles. In general terms, these standards provide for the fitment of three-point belts in exposed seats and either three-point or lap belts in other seats. On the basis of observed international practice and the EU standards referred to above, the working group was of the view that lap belts, with associated safety measures, were the most appropriate for installation in a retrofit situation in school buses. The associated safety measures include, for example, the use of energy absorbing material on the backs and tops of seats. The view of the working group on this matter informed the decision of the Government that all vehicles used in the school transport scheme will be equipped with safety belts by December 2006.
Bus Éireann has commenced retrofitting seat belts on its school bus fleet and work is progressing well. Bus Éireann's retrofit contractor has developed specifications for its 17 types of school bus and 100 of its approximately 650 school buses have already been fitted with seat belts. A total of 20 buses per week are being retrofitted at present and work is expected to be completed later this year. There are approximately 2,500 private contractors' vehicles in the school transport scheme, including taxis. The representative organisations of these contractors have been advised of Department of Transport requirements and discussions have commenced on how to best implement the seat belt installation by the target date.
The question arises following yesterday's accident as to whether we should go further and require the retrofitting of seat belts to all buses, apart from those on urban services, such as Dublin Bus. I believe we are making good progress on retrofitting buses within the State system but I will now examine how we might go further and set up a mandatory standard for all buses used, in particular, for carrying children. I am advised by my officials that this raises a number of significant issues for the industry in terms of phasing out existing buses and I have asked for a full report on the matter.
The bus operator involved in yesterday's accident is licensed by my Department with a road passenger transport operator's licence, issued in 2003.
This entitles him to carry for hire and reward for public or private hire. While one bus is registered on the licence, it is not the vehicle involved in yesterday's accident. The vehicle involved in the accident is registered for road tax purposes in the name of the road transport manager of the operation but the operator has not applied to my Department to have it registered on his operator's licence. This is a matter to be followed up by the Garda in the course of its investigation and my Department will co-operate in that regard. Before a vehicle can be registered on the licence as an authorised vehicle, my Department requires the sight of a current PSV certificate or roadworthiness certificate.
The Garda inquiry into yesterday's incident is the most appropriate and comprehensive way to find answers to the questions raised.
I will call on Deputies to ask their supplementary questions in the order in which they submitted their principal questions. I remind the House that this is a facility for questions and is not a debate.
I thank the Minister for his answer. Is it intended to simplify the process and co-ordinate it better? At present the process encompasses the PSV licence, the check by the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government check and the Department of Transport licence. Moreover, the Department of Education and Science is also directly involved in respect of school buses. In that context, does the Government intend to ensure that privately hired buses will be considered in the same light as buses run directly by the Department of Education and Science through the school bus system, either through Bus Éireann or through hiring private buses? The bus in question was hired by parents or the school rather than directly by the Department of Education and Science. Will the Minister, in conjunction with his colleagues, introduce a system that will ensure that all buses in which children travel to school will be covered by the same safety regulations which apply in the present programme for school buses, in which buses are directly hired, either through Bus Éireann or through private operators?
Is there a problem in respect of EU law regarding fitting seat belts on privately hired buses? It has been suggested there may be a difficulty with regard to fitting seat belts on privately hired buses. Is that the case?
Is the retrofitting programme proceeding according to the timeframe provided with specific reference to the school bus programme? Will the Government speed up the process of acquiring new buses? I acknowledge that much progress was made after the crash in County Meath last year and that definite timeframes and plans were set out. In light of this tragic crash, will the Government speed up the process of acquiring new buses which already possess appropriate safety features and which will be newer than many buses in use at present, either in the school bus fleet or in private buses used to bring children to school?
It is important to understand that the authorities involved in issuing licences have specific responsibilities in so doing. Moreover, they co-operate closely in this respect. The Garda Síochána and the testing authorities are responsible for roadworthiness. As far as this bus was concerned, I am happy to state that this was done properly. Before a bus can be taxed, its owner must present a valid roadworthiness certificate to the motor tax authorities, which removes any possibilities of anything going amiss in that regard. In addition, before a vehicle can be put on the road with a passenger transport operator's licence, the owner must produce a certificate of roadworthiness.
As for the issue to which I have alluded — I was clear in this respect yesterday — my view is that all buses that carry children for whatever reason should be fitted with safety belts. Such buses are not necessarily hired by schools and may be used to carry school or club teams and for all sorts of things. Such buses are not used exclusively for carrying children and operate for all purposes. Effectively, the question is whether we should consider retrofitting the country's entire fleet. I have asked my officials to examine that issue. As a starting point, we can and should insist or strongly advise parents, clubs or whoever hires such buses through private hire, that they should insist on getting a bus which has already been fitted with safety belts. As the year progresses, many additional buses with such features will become available, because thousands of buses used in the school bus system come from the private sector and are used for myriad purposes. Hence, capacity will be made available in the immediate future and everyone should be alerted to this.
A number of issues have been raised for the industry. A decision to retrofit all buses would probably remove many buses from the system because the costs involved in trying to retrofit would be extremely substantial. That is my instinctive reaction, although I wish to be more clear in that regard. Some of the myriad types of buses will not lend themselves to the retrofitting of safety belts. This has already become an issue with the buses with which my colleagues, the Minister for Education and Science, Deputy Hanafin, and the Minister of State at the Department of Education and Science, Deputy de Valera, have been involved through the school transport system. Already, it has been necessary to agree 21 different standards to cater for 21 different types of vehicles. However, we managed to set an extremely high standard that works in each case.
As for the EU issues, my I understanding is, barring further advice, that we must notify and get agreement from all the other European member states and the European Commission to retrofit all coaches. While one might not expect an objection, there are some free trade issues, in that within the European Union, no member state can impose a measure that could prevent equal competition from another bus company wishing to operate there. While these are the issues, I hope they are not insurmountable and that good sense will prevail. All member states should take this path.
I understand that at previous discussions at European Union level which took place before I took responsibility for this Department, this issue was discussed. The outcome of the ministerial meetings and deliberations was that all new vehicles should be so fitted. It was decided that it would be impractical to retrofit all the vehicles used for a variety of reasons.
The retrofitting programme is on schedule and I have gone through it in some detail. My colleague, the Minister of State at the Department of Education and Science, Deputy de Valera spoke clearly and at length in this regard yesterday.
At the outset, on my behalf and on behalf of the Labour Party, I extend our sympathies to the family of Michael White and to the families of all those who were injured and traumatised in this tragedy. I was interested in the Minister's statements on "Prime Time" last night in respect of the licensing regime for coaches used for school runs. This is the second school bus-related tragedy within a year and the various reports on the Meath tragedy have not yet been published. Arising from those reports, have lessons been learned within the Department of Transport in respect of the licensing regime and the testing for roadworthiness? Has the Minister seen those reports, or have any steps been taken to improve these two specific areas?
As for the Minister's comments last night and today, to the effect that the driver of the vehicle in question was not licensed to carry out the service which he provided——
That is not correct.
Have I misquoted the Minister?
Slightly. I must be precise and I stated this in a precise fashion.
I apologise for misquoting the Minister. For clarification, the driver was licensed——
He had an operator's licence from my Department.
For another vehicle.
For clarity, as this is an important issue, the vehicle registered on his licence is not the vehicle that was involved in the accident. The vehicle that was involved in the accident was not registered on the operator's licence.
Very well.
This is a technical issue and I do not want to build it into a more extraordinary matter. There could be legitimate reasons, in terms of contractual arrangements with other companies, which may overcome this issue. I do not know. Obviously, this will form part of the investigation. However, I need to get clarity in that respect. I am not in a position to resolve this.
Is the Minister confirming that the vehicle in question was not registered under anyone's licence?
It was not registered under this operator's licence.
It was not registered under this person's operator's licence. I am concerned that the legislation covering the area of registration is outdated. Can the Minister confirm that the 1932 Act has not been updated? The penalties involved would not act as a deterrent. A penalty of €70 for contravening the Act highlights the need to update the legislation urgently.
Is the Minister aware whether the back wheels of the vehicle involved came off during or after the crash? Can he provide specific information on when the roadworthiness test was carried out and how often such vehicles must undergo a roadworthiness test?
I have not seen any report from the previous accident last year. The matter is with the Director of Public Prosecutions, out of which many issues arise. I made clear to the House that I cannot comment on that matter.
The 1932 Act is being redrafted. Over the past 15 years, the Act has been referred to by almost every political party in the House. I am determined to introduce a new Bill this year to replace the 1932 Act. However, just because it is an old Act does not mean it is a bad one. There can be many good provisions in an Act regardless of its age. There may be issues around the scale of fines. The Deputy is correct that the deterrents need to be greater. A new Act is required to regulate the bus industry so that the licensing system can operate more efficiently. However, the existing system is legally based, robust and must be observed.
In regard to the crash, I do not have information on what happened, nor would I expect to be given such information because it is a matter for the Garda Síochána. I must leave it to the Garda to determine what happened because many issues will arise in the investigation and it is best placed to make that judgment. From our perspective, it would be of no value for me to guess what may or may not have happened. No one will know what happened until the full investigation is completed.
On behalf of the Green Party, I extend our deepest sympathy and condolences to the White family and to all the other families involved in the accident.
The report published in 1999 by the Joint Committee on Education and Science stated that a number of operators were providing services to schools outside the current school scheme and that Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government regulations governing the licensing of the buses came into play there. It stated that the strict safety standards set down by the Department of Education and Science did not govern these operators. The report recommended that the current safety standards of the school transport scheme should be extended to these private services and that to commence this, these operators should seek a licence from the Department of Education and Science to transport schoolchildren.
The Minister appears to be saying that the vehicle involved in the accident was registered for roadworthiness with the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government, the operator had a PSV licence with the Department of Transport but it was not licensed under the school transport scheme which is operated by the Department of Education and Science. If that is the case, is it intended to centralise management of the school transport system in the one Department?
On the use of seat belts, the Minister said that his Department commenced discussions with the private operators on how best to implement the safety aspects of seat belts. In response to a question by my colleague, Deputy Gogarty, on 15 February, the Minister for Education and Science said it was anticipated that the Department of Transport would issue guidelines shortly on the fitting and standards of seat belts required for private contractors' vehicles. When can we expect such standards to be published? Will this provide time to have all buses fitted with seat belts by the end of 2006? If seat belts become mandatory, should we consider using three-way harness seat belts rather than the lap belt because it would provide greater protection? It appears the lap belt can result in some abdominal injuries in certain bus accidents.
On the last point, my colleagues in the House have been involved in an enormous amount of work in this regard. The decision we made is based on EU standards and expert advice. I set this out in the note I made available to Members.
In the interests of clarity, this vehicle was not part of the school transport system. It is important to discern the difference between the two issues. The school transport system under the Department of Education and Science is operated through Bus Éireann which subcontracts a number of private hire companies. These are designated and operated within that system. This particular bus is in the private hire category. Anyone anywhere could hire the bus privately for a particular function, which was the case in this instance. The vehicle involved passed its roadworthiness test in 2005. These vehicles are subject to an annual roadworthiness test. This was carried out and completed properly.
In reply to Deputy Shortall, the services in question were not licensed under the Road Transport Act 1932 because it was a private hire arrangement. The legislation governing an operator's licence is derived from EU law. The 1932 Act deals with licensing for journeys etc. As this was a private hire arrangement, it was not licensed under the 1932 Act.
I have a brief question.
I will call the Deputies briefly at the end of this round. I call Deputy Olivia Mitchell.
What is the licensing arrangement if it is not governed by our national legislation?
The Road Transport Act 1932 governs occasional or scheduled services. This is not the case in this instance. As it is just a private hire arrangement, it does not form part of the licensing scheme whereby a bus which is licensed to travel from Cork to Dublin regularly is considered a daily schedule.
What legislation governs this aspect?
We cannot have a debate between the Deputy and the Minister as there are other Deputies offering. I call Deputy Olivia Mitchell.
I spoke about the legislation earlier.
I want to return to the application of different standards in respect of seat belts and the tests to which buses are subjected. The Minister was quoted in the newspapers last night as saying that it would be against EU law to require private buses to be retro-fitted with seat belts. Is that correct?
I said there were issues of free trade, of which I gave an example earlier. I clarified the issue further when I said that we would be required to notify every country within the EU that we were taking this step and they would have to agree that we could do so.
It appears to be a strange rule. This is being applied to buses which are part of the school transport system, whether they are privately owned or State-owned. It appears to be the function of the bus rather than who is footing the bill that is the critical issue. After all, they are both carrying schoolchildren. Even though these children may not be part of the school transport system, they are being transported to school and it is not their fault they are not part of the school transport system. It was ironic that on the night before the accident, the parents resolved at a board meeting yet again to request that the children would be admitted into the school transport system.
Taking that a step further, if there is a problem about seeking the retro-fitting of seat belts, surely there cannot be a problem about making it a requirement that children transported in buses should have a seat. That is a basic safety requirement to which the EU could not have any objection. We could move towards that immediately. I know it is not the ultimate protection and gives no guarantee of protection, but it is much better than having children standing loose in buses.
My second question relates to the different standards of tests which apply to publicly and privately owned buses, or private hire buses to distinguish them from those hired by CIE, whether by Bus Átha Cliath or Bus Éireann. I understand CIE does most of its own testing and that despite there being manuals and so on available to designate exactly what should be tested, the testing system does not seem to be nearly as onerous as the NCT, for example, to which all private cars are subjected and which seems to allow no margin for error. However, we have seen in the test for buses that there is margin for error. The bus involved in the accident in Meath passed its test despite the air brakes not being turned on.
The Minister said the report on the Meath accident was not published because of the prosecution requirement. Prosecutions are important but much more important in terms of what emerges from reports should be the lessons to be learned. Are we to learn no lessons until prosecutions take place and court cases are finished, which could take years? Leaving aside the apportioning of blame, if we had some sort of report, would it not be possible that we would have generated a debate of some sort on the roadworthiness test applied to these buses? We are talking of a 17 year old bus and while I do not want to draw conclusions about the back axle falling off, a 17 year old bus is an old one.
Arising from the problem that the bus was not licensed or that it was not registered on the operator's licence, from what I read in the newspapers this bus was newly bought by the owner, possibly during the summer, and it passed its roadworthiness test before September. Where did the bus come from? There is much anecdotal information that many buses and cars are being imported from other countries because they failed the tests there. I do not know if this is the case regarding the bus we are speaking of but it is an issue we need to examine if such buses are to be used for private hire.
Does the Minister agree that this second accident highlights again how ludicrous is the rule about the school transport system which precludes parents from having choice of school, even among their immediate localities, and forces them into a situation where they must hire private buses? Will the Minister for Education and Science, Deputy Hanafin, say if any of the children being carried on the bus involved in yesterday's accident were former concessionary pupils who lost places on the official school transport system last September?
It is worth repeating what has been said by my colleagues, namely, that in the school transport system we will have a seat per child, with a seat belt, by December of this year.
I am talking of buses not in the school transport system. Surely it is permitted to require that children have a seat if they are being transported to school.
No. I will not over-complicate the matter. The Department of Education and Science is a contracting authority. As such, it is permitted to set the standards of vehicles which it requires to deliver a particular service for it. Long before last year's accident, much work was being done to move on from three seats for two pupils and to investigate the safety belt issue. In fairness to the Department, it was already well down the road on the issue.
Is the Minister telling me he can require me to wear a safety belt in my car but cannot require a schoolchild to have a seat?
No, I am not. We are not here to be argumentative on the issue. I am saying what the law is. There is EU law governing this and I am subject to it just as the Deputy is. I am giving her the sequence. As it stands, the school bus system is operated and contracted through the Department of Education and Science, and Bus Éireann and the subcontracted private bus operators are being obliged by the Department to have every bus in the fleet fitted with safety belts. That is well under way and it answers another question the Deputy raised, namely, why we are all waiting around and doing nothing because we have not seen the reports. We are not. We have speeded up the process. The Department officials have engaged with Europe and various countries on a range of issues, and have not been waiting for any report.
The other issues in the report are a matter for the courts. I will not speculate on them, nor would the Deputy expect me to do so. With regard to any bus outside the school system, Deputy Olivia Mitchell asked why I cannot, overnight, say that every bus must be retrofitted with safety belts. The point is that some of those buses may, some of the time, be used to carry schoolchildren. All buses, no matter who contracts them, should have safety belts for the transport of young children, whether involved in clubs or schools, and I want to move in that direction.
In reality, we will probably have to look at the entire fleet of buses if they want to be involved in the myriad opportunities in which CIE is involved. To do that, I must notify the European Commission of such a move and the Commission must notify all member states. They then have three months to consider whether to agree to it. As I said yesterday, there are issues of free movement of goods and trade within the European Union and one cannot set a standard or make an imposition in one country which can affect the movement of people from another country to do business with a standard not being an EU-wide standard. Is that understandable to the Deputy?
The Minister should not patronise me. I understand the EU connection but that has nothing to do with whether the Minister has the right to say children should not be standing on buses in Ireland. They are not going to Europe.
I was doing my best to explain the reasons to the Deputy.
The Minister should not patronise me.
I am not patronising the Deputy. Why would the Deputy start a row with me on a very important issue? The Deputy asked me a question. Can I, here in the House, or tomorrow morning if I feel like it, say that every bus must have safety belts? The answer is "No".
I am not talking of safety belts. I asked about children standing in buses.
I ask the Deputy to resume her seat. Her colleague, Deputy Enright, is entitled to her opportunity to speak.
Buses are licensed to carry a certain number of people. If possible, I would like to get to the point where all buses have safety belts when carrying schoolchildren or any children anywhere. That is what I am dealing with.
I join the Minister in commending the emergency services on the work they did yesterday. When I visited the hospital in Tullamore just after lunch yesterday, it was amazing to see, a few short hours after such a terrible accident, how effectively matters were being dealt with in extraordinarily difficult circumstances. On the question of who licenses the buses, which is what Deputy Olivia Mitchell was asking, that is done from Ireland. They are licensed to carry a certain number of pupils. I do not know how many children were on the bus yesterday. If a bus is licensed to carry X number of pupils, surely carrying more than that number would be in breach of the licence. I am curious as to what testing is done. In the school transportation system we always take into account the fact there are sports bags and school bags. Is account taken of that in terms of the number of students who can travel on these private buses and what is the storage capacity on such buses?
Can the Minister give an assurance that his Department's manual is fully implemented by local authorities in terms of the inspection of vehicles? Is he satisfied this is done in the same manner in each county? Does he envisage any difficulties? What I cannot get to the bottom of is how we can tolerate a difference in buses carrying children, whether to school, a hurling match or whatever. I accept the points being made by the Minister in regard to free trade. Certainly in County Offaly and, perhaps, in County Laois I have never seen a company from Poland, Portugal or wherever coming in to operate a bus to bingo or a bus to school. It is very much a localised service. From a competition perspective, the only competition is internal because it is not a particularly profitable business.
The Minister said he feels strongly that the rule that applies to the school bus fleet should apply to the private bus fleet also. Will the Minister immediately take this to the next level, that is, the EU, with a view to its implementation? In the interim can we have a system where any bus carrying children would be subject to the same rigorous inspections as in the school transportation system? I take the point that those buses that may be used to transport children could be used at night for other purposes. From a child's safety perspective our first priority should be to ensure the buses are safe when carrying children and that seat belts are put in place for use by children. There is no legislation requiring that seat belts be in place for adults on buses.
I ask the Minister to immediately seek to have Directive 2003/20 implemented for all vehicles carrying children. How rigorous is the annual inspection carried out in September? While we do not know all the details of yesterday's accident, are buses inspected for rust and, if found, would it mean a bus was not roadworthy? That is an important point which seems to have come to light yesterday. Will the investigation include an examination of the condition of the road, which was an issue at Kentstown and in the accident yesterday? While the Minister has said there will be a Garda investigation will there also be a Department of Transport investigation? I note the Minister is nodding "No". Does that mean the Garda will investigate every aspect of the accident, including the testing? The Minister's Department has a responsibility to ensure the testing standard is rigorous. The Garda can investigate that in terms of what happened in Clara yesterday but it is not in a position to check the rigours of testing nationally. After the accident at Kentstown our concentration was very much on the school transportation service and perhaps the private bus issue did not occur to anybody. I do not want to come back here next year after, perhaps, another tragedy looking at other areas we neglected because we did not look at the whole issue.
Obviously the Garda is responsible for the enforcement of all traffic law and that includes every vehicles on our roads. There is a test on the structure, rust, chassis, brakes, suspension, glazing and so on. Everything comes into the test and the standard of testing is quite rigorous. All I was trying to explain to the House was the legal procedure I have to go through if we want to proceed in that direction. That is all I have given to the House and I am minded to do that. We all have to understand there are huge implications for the bus industry if we do this and their would be huge capacity implications immediately if every bus was put off the road. The EU decided not to go down this road for a myriad of reasons. We should not forget that all new buses coming on the market from next year must have safety belts.
On the point the Minister is making——
The Minister to reply without interruption.
It is on the point he is making. When buses are going on the road it is never the brand new shiny bus that is used to transport children. The older ones are always used. If we have to wait it might be for a long time. The bus involved in yesterday's accident was 17 years old. We could have to wait 15 years before that comes into effect.
The Deputy makes the point for me. I am simply saying my preference is that any bus used to carry children for whatever reason should have safety belts on it. We are all agreed on that. I laid out for the House what procedures I have to go through under EU law to get to that point. I point out that there are huge operational implications for the industry if we do this. I am minded to do it but I know the outcome will be to put all the small bus operators out of business. That is the reason the EU did not go down the road of retrofitting all the vehicles in Europe. It is as simple as that. I am minded to find a methodology for those who have a requirement for a coach to transport children to ensure they have a coach with safety belts fitted. By the end of this year not only a huge portion of the fleet in Bus Éireann but a huge portion of the fleet in the private sector, albeit contracted for specific work, will be on hire for a range of other work. I say to clubs, parents, groups and everybody that if they are hiring a coach for the movement of children they should stipulate they want a coach with safety belts. By the end of this year there will be a large pool of those coach fleets available.
A fleet that is properly licensed.
Of course.
Under what regulation will it be licensed?
Allow the Minister to reply without interruption.
The operator's licence stems from the Roads Act 1999.
Who monitors it?
Deputy, I would prefer if the Minister did not answer questions by way of interruption. We have spent almost an hour on this question.
I extend my sympathy to the White family, to those who were injured and traumatised and to their families, friends and the community at large. While I have a number of questions I will try not to go over the ground covered by other Deputies. Do we have a problem in regard to the use of older school buses? Is the Minister concerned about the 2,500 private operators? Is there a problem in this area? My understanding is that there is a problem with some of the school buses in that they do not have safety belts. Is there a need to move from older buses to newer buses? The Minister referred to a working group in regard to the Kentstown school bus accident and measures to enhance bus safety. I note that different groups are involved, including the Department of Finance. We had a problem with old cars on the roads and the scrappage scheme was introduced. Perhaps that is one way of dealing with the problem. Such a scheme, specifically for school buses, would help bring them into this century rather than the last century. Could VRT on buses be abolished? Simple measures would eliminate and get those old buses off the road. The Minister referred to safety inspections of brakes, gears, tyres and so on. While I am aware annual inspections take place, how often do checks take place between inspections, whether by the Health and Safety Authority or other agencies, to determine whether safety measures are working?
Will the Minister expand on the statement that the Department will examine how it will proceed in establishing mandatory standards for all buses? His request that existing buses be phased out ties in with my earlier question on the possibility of removing from the roads many older buses. It is not a case of a shortage of money and, with political will, these older buses can be taken off the roads.
We should be careful in what we say because the implication of some comments is that buses of a certain age are unsafe. That is untrue here and throughout the world. All buses, old and new, must meet the same rigorous standards to get a roadworthiness certificate.
Buses not fitted with seat belts are unsafe.
One cannot assume that because a bus is old, ergo it is unsafe. We all want a younger fleet of public buses and Bus Éireann and the Department are achieving this by acquiring new buses and relatively new second-hand buses of no more than three or four years of age. The key question is whether we have good and rigorous safety and testing standards which deliver. The evidence to date is that this is the case. The number of school bus crashes, notwithstanding two terrible crashes in the past 12 months, is low by any international measure and school bus standards are high. My Department will take all necessary measures to improve the system. As the Deputy indicated, there is political support for the investment being made by the Department of Education and Science and the measures my Department will take to regulate this sector.
Written Answers follow Adjournment Debate.