Gerry Adams
Ceist:2 Deputy Gerry Adams asked the Taoiseach if the Cabinet sub-committee on health met during the summer recess; and the number of occasions on which it met and the dates of same. [23765/11]
Amharc ar fhreagraTuesday, 27 September 2011
Ceisteanna (13, 14, 15, 16)
Joe Higgins
Ceist:3 Deputy Joe Higgins asked the Taoiseach the Cabinet sub-committee meetings that have taken place since Dáil Éireann rose on 22 July 2011. [24422/11]
Amharc ar fhreagra
Micheál Martin
Ceist:4 Deputy Micheál Martin asked the Taoiseach the support structure, including staff numbers, he has put in place for each Cabinet committee. [26096/11]
Amharc ar fhreagraMicheál Martin
Ceist:5 Deputy Micheál Martin asked the Taoiseach the numbers of persons assigned to work full-time in support of the Economic Management Council. [26097/11]
Amharc ar fhreagraFreagraí ó Béal (127 píosaí cainte)
I propose to take Questions Nos. 2 to 5, inclusive, together.
The Cabinet committee on social policy met on 21 September. No other Cabinet committee meetings have been held since 22 July 2011. However, the Government and the Economic Management Council have met several times. Meetings of five Cabinet committees are scheduled between now and the end of October.
Each Cabinet committee is supported by a senior officials' group, generally chaired by an assistant secretary in my Department and with membership drawn from the relevant Departments. As in previous Administrations, supporting Cabinet committees is a core function of the relevant policy division in my Department and is undertaken in addition to other responsibilities of the staff involved.
A second Secretary General has been appointed in my Department, whose responsibilities include managing support for the Economic Management Council, which has the status of a Cabinet committee, and reporting to the Tánaiste and Minister for Foreign Affairs and Trade on matters relating to the council. No staff have yet been assigned on a full-time basis to that committee. It is supported by staff from my Department with assistance from other Departments as appropriate.
Today some 394 patients are lying on hospital trolleys across the country. The largest number consistently is at Our Lady of Lourdes Hospital, Drogheda, County Louth. Last night 48 citizens were on trolleys. Over the summer, there were many reports on the long delays in filling vacancies for junior doctors. Some recent reports have stated some junior doctors from abroad had to return home due to long delays in processing their registrations. Did the Cabinet health sub-committee deal with these issues during the summer recess?
When the Government took office, we originally did not establish a Cabinet health committee. However, due to the importance of the issue in question, a health committee date has been set for the next fortnight. It will focus on this and several other issues. Over the summer, the Government, the Minister for Health and the Economic Management Council have been active on this issue.
I have visited several hospitals myself and spoken to patients on trolleys. It is always regrettable that this occurs. The special delivery unit, established by the Minister for Health to examine waiting lists and patients on trolleys, has made some interesting preliminary findings which will require a co-ordinated plan to be put in place to see such backlogs do not arise as they have consistently done so over the past 20 years. I have also visited Our Lady of Lourdes Hospital, Drogheda. It is trying for patients to be left on trolleys, often in uncomfortable positions. Those at the front line of the health services do extraordinary work in dealing with a legacy and a structure inadequate for our current needs. Over the time ahead, this will be a priority matter for the Minister for Health. The Cabinet health committee will receive reports on several issues from the Minister, the HSE and so forth and we will have an opportunity to discuss those matters in the Chamber.
I am astonished a Cabinet health committee has not even been established yet. I was in the Chamber when its establishment was announced with a great brouhaha.
It was not announced with a great brouhaha. After a review of the Cabinet sub-committees, I considered there should be one for health and we set it up.
There are 400 people on hospital trolleys.
Yes, I accept that. An extraordinary amount of money is spent on the health system. Last week, nurses on a ward I visited informed me the wastage in their hospital is extraordinary. The Deputy has a part to play in resolving these issues. The Minister for Health and the Cabinet health committee will focus on these issues.
What is the function of the Cabinet sub-committee on health? How does it relate to the responsibilities of the Minister for Health and the HSE? The committee was established to underline the urgency of the needs of the health service and deal with the dramatic and disastrous effects of health cutbacks. It beggars belief that it has not yet met when hospitals across the country are suffering traumatically from the swinging and savage cuts imposed by the HSE on the Taoiseach's watch. The Taoiseach referred to wastage in the health services, as if it were a cover for the dreadful crisis that exists in them. The Government cut the number of beds in Blanchardstown hospital by 20%.
These are matters more appropriate for the Minister for Health. This question relates to Cabinet sub-committees.
The problem is that doctors and other health staff are treating too many patients and have been told to cut back. This is Alice in Wonderland stuff. Who is going to bring sanity to this? Who will restore the services that have been cut, so that our health services are safe for patients?
The health committee meets on Wednesday, 5 October. Its purpose is to provide political oversight of the Government's programme to change the structure and nature of the health service to ensure it is fit for purpose in 2011 and onwards. This programme will also achieve greater efficiencies, a far more effective level and a better quality of service both for those who work on the front line and, in particular, patients. The forthcoming meeting will also be an opportunity for the sub-committee to focus on the oversight of delivering priority services for the Government.
Apart from this, over the summer I called together the Department of Health and HSE for a barnstorming session about several health issues. The committee was set up at the end of June and it will meet in October to provide a political oversight of the decisions being taken by the Minister for Health.
Which Ministers are on this committee?
The Minister for Health and his two Ministers of State, Deputies Kathleen Lynch and Shortall.
A Cabinet committee means it is composed of Cabinet Ministers. It cannot be a Cabinet committee if it just comprises one Minister and two Ministers of State. By definition, it should involve several Departments. Will the Taoiseach clarify what other Ministers and Departments are on this committee to implement the health service commitments in the programme for Government? The programme and the Fine Gael general election manifesto committed to changing completely the funding model for hospitals in the coming months. Hospitals were to lose their secure funding and move to a per capita system. This is a fundamental, substantive and radical change. It beggars belief that the Cabinet sub-committee on health has not met to consider this issue or the commitment’s implementation. There is no urgency attached to the implementation——
We are on Question Time. Could we have a question, please?
We are and I will put my question.
The Deputy's Government had no Cabinet sub-committee on health at all.
That there has been no meeting illustrates that no urgency is attached to the implementation of the proposal to change the funding model. I suspect there is no real commitment. Will the Taoiseach clarify this point?
The Deputy did not commit to abolishing the health boards, but that is what occurred.
Neither the Minister for Health nor the Government have an idea as to how to bring about the health insurance model they touted during the election campaign. It was to be the panacea for all of the ills of the health service.
I remind the Deputy that this is Question Time.
Does the Taoiseach agree that there is a lack of genuine commitment to the idea? There was no depth or substance behind it, as revealed by the facts that the Cabinet sub-committee has not met and, judging by his answers, the Taoiseach does not know who its members are. It is far from a satisfactory situation.
We are on Question Time.
Why is the sub-committee being delayed and will the frequency of its meetings be increased in the coming months to prepare for the dramatic commitment in the programme for Government? I disagree with the fundamental principles of the Government's proposal. It is a dramatic overhaul. May I revert on Question No. 5 after the Taoiseach has answered my supplementary questions on Question No. 3?
Yes.
I have rarely listened to such blather in all my life.
Hear, hear.
I chair the committee on health. The Minister for Health is its convenor. It is also attended by the Tánaiste and Minister for Foreign Affairs and Trade, the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform, the Minister for Children and Youth Affairs, the Minister of State with responsibility for primary care, Deputy Shortall, and the Minister of State with responsibility for disability, equality and mental health, Deputy Kathleen Lynch. They are the members of the committee.
I thank the Taoiseach.
It meets on 5 October. It is completely irresponsible of the Deputy to say that there is neither depth nor substance in this——
Deputies
Hear, hear.
——when, speaking as Minister on this side of the House he said he had not read his brief and that he had no responsibility for taking €1 billion from geriatric people in——
That is not true.
Yes, it is.
Hear, hear.
It is true.
Deputy Martin never read his briefing.
He denied all responsibility for it.
That is not true. What the report established was completely at variance with what the Taoiseach has just asserted. He is wrong.
On the contrary, the Deputy continuously goes back——
The Taoiseach should withdraw his remark. He cannot keep deceiving the House on this matter. It is rubbish.
Some 113 reports.
I implemented.
——to the programmes of Opposition parties. This party and the Labour Party have a programme for Government. It is very clear in respect of health and we intend to implement that over the lifetime of the Government. Even Deputy Martin will understand that, after six months, it is impossible to shift the leviathan that is the health service in a way that will answer all of the questions.
The sub-committee could meet at least once. It has not met.
The health committee meets on 5 October. We have a lot of committees to deal with and a lot of meetings to attend. This is a priority and the Minister for Health has been focused on that since his appointment and will continue to be so along with his two Ministers of State and the members of this committee as part of Government. Deputy Martin will have his opportunity to have his say here.
Too right. Address the record of Fianna Fáil.
The Taoiseach is misleading the House in respect of the Travers report on the nursing homes issue. The €1 billion in question dated back to 1976. The Taoiseach told an untruth.
Deputy Martin took the file home. It went missing.
I appeared before an Oireachtas committee and was vindicated by it and the Travers report.
The Deputy is not to blame for anything.
It is not good enough for the Taoiseach to keep bringing that matter back to the surface just to cover up his own inadequacies and his lack of substance as regards health policy.
The Deputy abolished the health boards. He is blaming someone else.
I stand over my record in the Department of Health and Children fully, particularly in terms of the National Treatment Purchase Fund, heart disease, cancer and anything the Taoiseach would like to discuss.
Could we get back to Question Time, please?
The fact that the sub-committee has not met once in the past six months is testimony to the Government's lack of urgency.
The Deputy stated on the public record that he took no responsibility for it.
Could we get back to Question Time?
I apologise.
Deputy Martin commissioned 113 consultancy reports.
With the greatest of respect,——
The Deputy promised fundamental reform.
Entirely blameless. He took no responsibility.
Would Deputy Martin mind speaking through the Chair, please? He is inviting this sort of thing.
The Ceann Comhairle should not justify the unacceptable interruptions by an unruly bunch across the floor of the House.
I am trying to control the Deputy and the other side.
He does not like to hear the truth.
I tell the truth all of the time. I will lay it on the line.
Ask a question.
The fundamental point is——
He never put it on paper.
Will Deputy Durkan stay quiet for a moment, please?
I apologise.
The Taoiseach did not answer my question. He never does. He just goes on a rant about something else.
Ask the question.
If the Deputy asks his question, we will see if he can get an answer.
I asked about the proposal in the programme for Government regarding a fundamental change in the funding model for the health service in terms of each hospital's secure funding. The Taoiseach did not answer my question.
I thought the Deputy was asking about the Economic Management Council.
I asked about the reason for the delay in the health sub-committee meeting and whether this means the programme's proposal will be delayed. The hospitals' funding model is a substantive issue.
Turning to Question No. 5, the Government has made much of the Economic Management Council, so much so that many Government briefers, including the Labour Party's briefers, have stated that the Minister for the Environment, Community and Local Government, Deputy Hogan, is jealous of its members because he cannot get on it.
Will the Deputy ask a question and cut out the——
Deputy Martin does not know the Minister too well, and certainly not as well as us. He does not get jealous.
The Taoiseach has been careful——
Could the Deputy cut out the phrases and ask a question, please?
(Interruptions).
I ask Members on the Government side to settle down, please. I am trying to chair Question Time.
The Deputy had better watch his back.
I asked about the committee's structure. The House is not allowed to examine its work or its structure. The economic division of the Taoiseach's Department, which was open to parliamentary questions and freedom of information requests, seems to have been moved out and replaced by the Economic Management Council, which can hide every aspect of its work behind Cabinet confidentiality.
This is Question Time.
This is a long speech.
Does the Taoiseach not agree that this is the exact opposite of the transparency and accountability promised in the Government's programme? How will the roles of those co-ordinating the work of this Cabinet sub-committee differ from the roles of those who co-ordinate other sub-committees? Will the Taoiseach agree to make its work open to parliamentary questions and freedom of information requests? He can do so. There is no reason for it to be a Cabinet sub-committee. He could change its status if he wanted to do so. I ask him to do so in the interests of transparency and accountability so that we might ask questions about the economic work of the Department of An Taoiseach. The Dáil used to be able to do this but can no longer because that work has been subsumed within the Cabinet sub-committee. That we cannot ask parliamentary questions or make freedom of information requests means there is no accountability.
The Deputy is well aware that the confidentiality of discussions at Cabinet and Cabinet committees is protected by Article 28.4.3° of Bunreacht na hÉireann, which states:
The confidentiality of discussions at meetings of the Government shall be respected in all circumstances save only where the High Court determines that disclosure should be made in respect of a particular matter—
i in the interests of the administration of justice by a Court, or
ii by virtue of an overriding public interest, pursuant to an application in that behalf by a tribunal appointed by the Government or a Minister of the Government on the authority of the Houses of the Oireachtas to inquire into a matter stated by them to be of public importance.
These are the circumstances in which the confidentiality of discussions at Cabinet committees can actually be broken. In the light of constitutional provisions, the well established precedent in regard to questions on Cabinet committees is for the Taoiseach to answer matters of a factual nature. It is important to note that this is part of the requirement of the Constitution. The Deputy was on this side of the House for 14 years and would not answer anything about Cabinet committees or anything else.
This is pathetic.
He disavowed all knowledge of the nursing home issue.
The programme for Government made all sorts of commitments about transparency and accountability. I asked the Taoiseach a simple question. Will he open up the work of this council to the Parliament via parliamentary questions? It is his decision, his choice. I do not need any further recitation of the Constitution. I am well aware of it. The Taoiseach chooses to hide the economic work and move it to a Cabinet sub-committee on economic management and so forth. It is the Taoiseach's decision, not anyone else's. He should not keep mentioning ten years or the like. He made the choice and the promises.
Deputy Martin made choices, too.
Will he agree to open up the work to the Dáil? "Yes" or "No"?
Have we got an answer?
I will tell the Deputy why. The Economic Management Council is attended by myself and the Tánaiste, the Minister for Finance and the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform. It is backed up by Secretaries General from appropriate Departments and senior officials from Departments depending on the issues that are under discussion. It is a very effective way of streamlining business to bring to the Cabinet, where decisions are then made. These decisions obviously become public and the Deputy has an opportunity to debate them arising from opportunities in the Dáil and elsewhere.
Rather than have interminably long Cabinet meetings discuss everything, the Economic Management Council, the agenda of which is determined by the Tánaiste and which is now supported by the appointment of a second Secretary General, streamlines the work on very important issues that are then brought before the Cabinet.
For instance, if the Economic Management Council decides on an issue, its decision goes to the Cabinet for approval. If approved it becomes a Cabinet decision and once that is made public, the Deputy is entitled to ask questions about it, comment on it and debate it in the House. I hope that clarifies what we are doing in that room.
That does not answer the question.
I am not opening it up because of this.
No living human being could answer Deputy Martin's question.
He does not want to answer it.
There are two referendums in October. We do not want one on Article 28.4.3°, not yet in any case.
The Taoiseach is shutting everything down.
We will have an opportunity to examine all these matters after the presidential election at a constitutional convention.
The never-never.
I will allow a quick supplementary question from Deputy Boyd Barrett.
I have no intention of opening up the discussions at the Cabinet meeting to questions in here.
It is a kind of war office, or war Cabinet, to deal with the razed earth we found after Fianna Fáil left office.
Could I hear Deputy Boyd Barrett?
I was waiting for the Minister, Deputy Rabbitte, to finish.
What the Constitution says is not really the issue or answer we are looking for. While the Taoiseach may have the right to maintain Cabinet confidentiality regarding the activities of the Economic Management Council — I have asked questions on this several times — we are in a very grave financial and economic situation that is very fluid. We and the public read daily about the next twist or turn in the economic and financial crisis in Europe and how it may have an impact on us.
Will the Deputy ask his question?
We wish to be able to question the Taoiseach on the ongoing deliberations of the Government because they are of such urgency and importance. That is why we want the Taoiseach to open up the debate that is taking place among members of the Government on very important decisions that affect the economic and financial future of this country and its citizens.
I am not sure when the Deputy thought up that particular question. I am quite sure he is participating in the debate here on giving effect to the decisions taken in July at the Heads' of Government meeting in Brussels, which decisions have a direct impact on the economic——
July was a long time ago. A lot has happened since then.
——position in so far as Europe is concerned.
The Government discusses matters on an ongoing basis at what are called Cabinet meetings. When the Cabinet makes decisions, as the current one is doing, they are made public and the House then has an opportunity to raise them, either during the Topical Issues debate or during other appropriate debates in the Dáil, or at meetings of Oireachtas committees. Perhaps the Deputy would like to participate in the Cabinet discussions himself, but he cannot do so yet. He may have to wait a while. In so far as it is possible to answer the Deputy's question——
The public.
——and do so legitimately, we will do so.
The Deputy is asking me whether there is an opportunity for elected Members in the House to participate in these kinds of discussions. There is.
It is very limited.
We have freed up the system for the Deputies. I am not sure whether Deputy Boyd Barrett submitted a request to have a Topical Issues debate today on the issue he mentioned.
About another issue.
If so, it is a matter for the Ceann Comhairle. The Deputy may submit the matter again tomorrow and may participate in the debate on the euro. Another such debate will be held next week. The Deputy will have plenty of opportunities to voice his opinions.
That is not true. The opportunities are becoming fewer and fewer and the Taoiseach is avoiding the issue all the time.
It is the opposite.
I call Deputy Adams on Question No. 6.
The Taoiseach is reducing his time in the House.
Next week.
Members should speak through the Chair. We will proceed to Question No. 6.