Teacher Training Provision

Dáil Éireann Debate, Tuesday - 9 October 2012

Tuesday, 9 October 2012

Ceisteanna (49)

Catherine Murphy

Ceist:

49. Deputy Catherine Murphy asked the Minister for Education and Skills if, in view of the cuts to salary levels for new entrants to the teaching profession, he has performed a risk assessment on the demand for teacher training places in view of the lower income expectations; if he has considered the impact of persons doing the same work for different incomes and the conflicts that may arise; and if the risk assessment has considered if there will be varying educational outcomes on foot of this decision. [43362/12]

Freagraí ó Béal (5 píosaí cainte)

Deputy Ruairí Quinn

It is neither possible nor appropriate to attempt to separate measures such as those impacting on the pay of new entrants from their context. These measures have to be viewed against the backdrop of a very serious financial and budgetary situation. They reflect a position where this country has lost its economic sovereignty and simply no longer has full control over its economic affairs.

Reductions in the pay of new entrant public servants, including teachers, date back to the last Government. More recently, this Government has made further adjustments on foot of the allowances review. In the case of teachers, while there has been a small decline in applications to the bachelor of education for primary teaching between 2011 and 2012, the overall number of applications remains high. A similar trend obtains for the professional diploma in education, which is the main route to post-primary teaching. It is significant that successful applicants to the bachelor of education courses in 2012 continue to be from the top quartile of leaving certificate students in terms of points.

Ireland has always attracted students of the highest calibre to the teaching profession, a profession that enjoys the respect, trust and high regard of the public, and I am confident that this will continue to be the case.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

I do not know if a risk assessment is done in regard to these kinds of matters. I certainly remember working in the same office as someone who was paid more because that person happened to be a man. I know the kind of resentments this created and, indeed, I remember the day when that was reversed as it is something that will stick with me. Those resentments will be very real.

I know the Minister completely agrees that we need to take the long view when it comes to education. However, in regard to, for example, subjects like maths and science where an alternative type of employment may be available, does the Minister not agree there is a risk in terms of the calibre of people who may well come into the profession? In turn, those people will be needed if we are going to have a sustainable workforce into the future.

It links back to people preferring a particular profession because of the income available, not exclusively because of the vocational aspect of the career choice. Does the Minister agree that is the case?

Deputy Ruairí Quinn

I understand the Deputy's concerns about a two-tiered salary system for the same occupation and activity, but it is not confined to the teaching sector or the public service. In response to the economic crisis, recruitment grades in the private sector have dropped considerably. One has the phenomenon of young or recently recruited people coming into a place of work to do a job at a rate that is lower than other people who have been in the job for three or four years prior to them. That is the way employers have reacted to the economic crisis. In view of pay agreements and pay contracts in the private and public sectors, unilaterally changing the contracts would be in breach of the agreements and would cause consequences that would disrupt the teaching. That is why we, along with many other employers, have altered the agreement for new recruits.

On Deputy Murphy’s concern that it will slow down, distort or reduce the number of quality teachers coming into the system, the feeling is that it will not for the simple reason that for every successful teaching applicant for both the primary school training centres - colleges of education – and at second level, there are approximately nine who are not successful. I speak about the present. Over time, that will have to be reviewed to see if there was any change in attitude but, currently we have a high level of applications for teaching posts both in the primary sector and the post-primary sector.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

Does the Minister consider the measure as a long-term proposition or will it be reviewed if economic circumstances change? In the event of a changed economic climate resulting in changes in the cost of education as a result of the Croke Park agreement does the Minister foresee a change in approach in that regard?

Deputy Ruairí Quinn

The public sector pay agreement, namely, the Croke Park agreement, which was negotiated by the previous Government, which we undertook to honour, has delivered many savings already but it is due to expire. I hope a new agreement will be negotiated in its place. That is the time to examine these types of anomalies and differences and no doubt that will be the case.