Dáil Éireann Debate, Thursday - 17 October 2013
7. Deputy Mary Lou McDonald asked the Minister for Social Protection her views on the number of Government Departments that are making use of JobBridge interns with no hope of offering them employment due to the recruitment embargo and that almost 60% of JobBridge participants who undertook their internship in a public sector organisation did not progress into paid employment; and the steps she will take in response to same. [43367/13]
Amharc ar fhreagraJobBridge is one of the key initiatives introduced to assist individuals to bridge the gap between unemployment and the world of work. As of 10 October, some 21,842 jobseekers had participated in the scheme, with 5,918 participants in active internships. In addition, 2,948 internship posts have been advertised and are available on the JobBridge website. It is important to highlight that participation in the scheme is voluntary for both jobseekers and host organisations. A key measure of the effectiveness of any scheme designed to provide a pathway into employment is the extent to which participants progress into employment within a short period following completion of their placement. In the past, a criticism made by the ESRI and the OECD was that the State did not perform a robust ex-post evaluation of scheme effectiveness and, as a consequence, ineffective schemes were allowed to continue in operation at a considerable cost to the Exchequer. I decided, therefore, to commission an independent evaluation of JobBridge to assess its effectiveness early in its lifecycle. I published the independent evaluation conducted by Indecon economic consultants earlier this year. The evaluation found that 61% of interns who finished placements secured employment within five months. These progression outcomes indicate that JobBridge is the best performing of all employment schemes and that it compares more than favourably with European averages for equivalent schemes. In the context of the evaluation, 89% of interns stated JobBridge had given them new skills, 88% stated they had gained quality work experience, 81% stated it had improved their chances of gaining employment, 81% stated it had improved their self-confidence, 80% stated it had helped them identify job opportunities and 76% stated it helped them to establish contacts and networks. These types of benefits accrue, regardless of whether an internship placement is within the public or the private sector.
The Department’s records indicate that 20% of all placements to date have been in the public sector. The Indecon evaluation found that 41.2% of interns who undertook their internships in public sector organisations progressed into paid employment with other organisations. This rate of progression exceeds that for other schemes such as the community employment scheme and Tú, and shows that the experience that interns gain in public sector host organisations enhances their CVs and facilitates them in gaining employment with other employers. I am satisfied, therefore, that public sector internships provide a valuable pathway to employment for many and I will continue to support such internships through the JobBridge scheme.
In the past the Minister has accused me of being opposed to JobBridge. Before she does so again, I wish to put it on the record that I have never opposed JobBridge per se. I have called for its reform and I wish all of those who get work from JobBridge or under their own steam well in those jobs.
However, I believe the Minister is a disgrace. She is turning her back on the unemployed, the unions and the Trades Council. She is adopting a right wing, workfare agenda. She is intent on making young and old people work for nothing, displacing paid jobs and reducing pay in other jobs. Is she aware that the Irish Congress of Trade Unions states that JobBridge in its current form depresses genuine job creation, decreases paid employment and undermines economic recovery? Is she also aware that the 61% statistic on achieving work which she quotes does not stand up to full scrutiny because it is not evident whether that work is full-time, permanent or contractual? It should not be forgotten that this is on the back of a free internship. The criticism in the question relates to Government Departments. It is an absolute disgrace, given that there is a public service recruitment embargo, that the State is using JobBridge to fill positions that should otherwise be filled by public servants.
JobBridge has been in operation for a little over two years. A total of 21,000 people have taken on a JobBridge internship. I commissioned the examination of how the scheme was working for people. We have extensive web interaction in real time with both the interns and the host organisations, so if there are problems we get onto them immediately. We also get many messages from people on social media sites. If they raise issues with us, we investigate them immediately.
Is the Deputy saying there should be no internships in the public sector? If that is what he is suggesting, I believe he is wrong. There is a great deal of experience, of a very high quality internship type, available in the public sector. It is for six or nine months and is for people who cannot get a foot in the labour market. They cannot get a job because they have no experience and they cannot get experience because they cannot get a job. The six or nine months' experience overcomes that problem, which I acknowledge is a particular feature of the recession. It is a response to the terrible situation I see, as somebody working in third level with many young people, in which people emerge with all sorts of qualifications from secondary and third level education and cannot get a job because they have no experience, but they cannot get experience because they cannot get a job. They are stuck in this catch-22. If the public sector can help in a careful way, that is appropriate.
The fact that the JobBridge steering committee is weighed down by departmental officials might be one of the reasons a number of people in JobBridge are in the public service. Why is there no trade union representative or representative of the unemployed on that steering committee? In contrast, an anti-union company which recently announced the lay-off of 280 paid workers has two representatives. Was the Minister not embarrassed when she announced that the head of that company, Mr. Martin Murphy-----
Sorry, Deputy; we do not use names in the Chamber. The Deputy has been here long enough to know that.
It is the chief executive officer of Hewlett Packard in Ireland. Anybody can Google his name and it is on the Department's website.
Yes, but the Deputy knows the rules as well as I do.
Why did the Minister appoint him to a jobs council at the same time as he was laying off 280 workers?
The principle of internship is definitely a good one, and I am sure JobBridge has been positive in some ways. However, it is easy to abuse. I know many highly qualified people who are involved in it.
A question, please.
Given that the OECD has pointed out that it is more of an employers' support than a workers' support, does the Minister not think that increasing the period from 12 months to 18 months is counterproductive in that regard?
There is a number of sectors in Ireland that are really important for employment opportunities. The IT sector is a major source of employment for Irish people and for people from other European countries coming to Ireland. In the context of the downturn in both construction and retail, it is odd that the Deputy would choose to make those comments. Across the Border, his party has been cock-a-hoop when employment expansion in the IT industry has been announced. As the Deputy knows, and I am sure he is familiar with business practices, in all IT companies there are periods when there are changes and reductions in one area of activity. The company the Deputy referred to has been expanding employment enormously in other areas and has many thousands of people employed in the greater Dublin area, Galway and Cork. That company is a major employer in Ireland and the Deputy should not indicate otherwise. It has been expanding its employment even though certain areas in IT companies change from time to time.
In response to Deputy Wallace, we changed the regulations to allow people to take on a further internship if, as a consequence of a first internship of six or nine months, they find they are not interested in that field. If a person finds an internship in an area in which he or she is interested, he or she will be allowed a second chance, as it were. That was a proposal from the interns in the survey by Indecon and it was a recommendation in the report. One can only do that repeat experience if it is in two different organisations. It is not meant to be a consecutive internship in a single organisation. That is not allowed. There are a small number of cases in which people find that the internship is not what they wish to do, but they would like a chance subsequently at another internship that they have identified as being of serious interest. It is only in such circumstances that we allow a repeat. It is not consecutive and it cannot be in the same organisation.
I must call Question No. 8.
Also, the key aspect of the internship programme is that, unlike in the United Kingdom, to which some references were made, internships in Ireland are voluntary. They are voluntary on the part of the host organisation and on the part of the person who participates. There is no compulsion involved. To be honest, I would not be keen on compulsion given the nature of the internship experience. It is about somebody going into an organisation to get work experience and being full of energy and enthusiasm. It is very different from some of the schemes one reads about in other jurisdictions.
There is compulsion in Tús.
