Dáil Éireann Debate, Tuesday - 26 November 2013
98. Deputy Patrick O'Donovan asked the Minister for Education and Skills in view of the increased numbers taking up higher level maths for examination at leaving certificate as a result of the reintroduction of bonus points, if he will consider a similar initiative for those students taking up applied math, physics and chemistry; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [50117/13]
Amharc ar fhreagraThis question relates to the success of the Department in increasing the uptake of higher level mathematics in the leaving certificate examination, which has been welcomed by employers and people working in education. I am concerned that the uptake of certain other subjects at higher level in the leaving certificate is still quite low, however, particularly in the cases of applied mathematics and physics. Given that it can be difficult for people who do not have those subjects to make the transition into university courses in areas like science and engineering, will the Department or the State Examinations Commission consider extending this initiative to those subjects?
All third level institutions collectively decided to operate a bonus points scheme for higher level mathematics for a four-year trial period from 2012 to 2015, with a review in 2014. I would like to pay tribute to the former Minister, Mary Coughlan, who led this initiative. As Deputy O'Donovan will be aware, CAO points are matters for third level institutions in the first instance. The Department has no role in calculating or awarding them.
The introduction of the new leaving certificate project maths syllabus and the provision of bonus points, has led to a welcome increase in the number of candidates presenting at higher level in the examination, up from 15.8% in 2011 to 25.6% in 2013. The target participation rate, as set out in my literacy and numeracy strategy, is 30% by 2020. I believe this target is quite achievable.
This situation will be monitored in the context of the broader work that the Department is carrying out on transitions. The issue of transition from second level to third level is a complex one. The Department is working with the HEA, the NCCA and other key stakeholders to develop a strategic, systemic response. The group is focussing on three key themes: predictability and grade banding in the leaving certificate, and broadening entry routes to third level.
It is not appropriate, at this time, to look at individual subjects, as the Deputy suggests, but rather to initially identify systemic solutions.
I appreciate that the third level institutions are responsible for the points system. However, the difficulty does not just stem from the leaving certificate and the low uptake. For instance, in 2011 only 1,000 people or thereabouts took applied maths. As I have pointed out to the Minister previously, the difficulty relates to the number of third level students dropping out between first year science to second year. The same third level institutes are accepting students into engineering and science courses with ordinary-level leaving certificate maths and biology. These students are having major difficulty and it is grossly unfair to them.
We need to recognise the level of difficulty associated with studying physics in particular. The results speak for themselves. In 2011 only 8.8% of those who did the leaving certificate examinations did higher-level physics, which was down from 10.2% in 2006. They are still tiny figures of the overall cohort. Some 1,200 jobs are being created a week, many of them in the high technology sector. If we cannot encourage people to take higher-level leaving certificate physics, applied maths and chemistry, we will have a serious problem in filling the places on third level courses, not to mention retaining them to the point at which they are conferred with the appropriate degree. While I appreciate the Minister's answer, the HEA, the Department and the third level institutes need to review this. Given that it has worked for higher-level maths and that Engineers Ireland and others, including me, regard it as a good idea, the Minister should consider introducing it across the science spectrum.
I thank the Deputy for his comments. I agree broadly with his analysis and recommendations. Young people doing leaving certificate examinations are pretty smart at navigating their way to maximise the points they believe they can get. They will take the subject choice they feel most comfortable with to get the points they are capable of getting. Good luck to them and I am thankful that we have people who can do that. The problem is for us to change the marking system and to incentivise. We know that incentivisation works as the basis of Project Maths. In terms of teaching people maths, perhaps we should be looking at the entry for primary school teachers coming into teacher colleges. It is predominantly a female profession, notwithstanding the Deputy's presence in the room as a teacher. Some young women who have done higher level maths in the junior certificate then drop to a lower level doing their leaving certificate examinations because they do not need anything higher than that. We need to get good mathematics teachers into the primary school system and the secondary school system. It is a continuum and we need to work together to do it. The evidence from the bonus points for Project Maths is great evidence on which to build.
The bonus points system for maths is an exercise in entrenching inequality in the education system. This year, 12,500 of the more than 50,000 students who sat maths in the leaving certificate examinations got an extra 25 points. Many of them just got a grade D and they are getting into courses for which they might not necessarily be equipped. That only 7% of Irish ten year olds are learning a foreign language as opposed to 75% in Britain is a stark statistic. Did the fact that Google raised this issue have more to do with this than the overall quality of education in Ireland? Does the Minister accept students coming out of the system have a very poor level of English?
We are told that the extra points for mathematics raises the standard and encourages more people in that direction, but does society benefit? In light of the report published today, which reveals that the courses with high points are almost exclusively dominated by fee-paying schools, is it not the case that people who can opt for maths, and maybe extra tuition, use that advantage? Gaelscoileanna also feature. Are we not handing over access to university for these courses, which qualify for extra points, to these schools? Does the Minister agree that the standard of maths at higher level has been dumbed down?
I do not accept the Deputy's last point, that the standard in maths has been dumbed down. It is certainly different and some of the third level teachers of mathematics who expect somebody ready to go into a very narrow channel of mathematics such as physics or engineering see a different kind of leaving certificate pupil. We run the system between the NCCA and the Department to ensure people coming out of second level education are equipped for the rest of their lives. There is a debate in that area and we could go into it at some length.
There is a mismatch, as there was for quite some time, between the graduates coming into the system in areas for ICT and what was being produced. Part of the problem was identified as a low level of uptake for higher level maths. That was identified by Engineers Ireland and a group of other employers approximately seven or eight years ago. In response, the bonus points were suggested, a decision taken and implemented by the then Minister, Mary Coughlan. There has been a dramatic increase in the uptake. It has some distorting effects, as every change in a system does. It is too early to say whether it is unjust. Young people make rational choices to maximise their points and we should understand that in the way in which some subjects are perceived to be easier than others although they get the same mark.
