Dáil Éireann Debate, Tuesday - 10 December 2013
69. Deputy Niall Collins asked the Minister for Justice and Equality the steps he has taken to address existing misleading property trusts that promise to help indebted home owners avoid repossession; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [52679/13]
Amharc ar fhreagraThis matter was aired recently in the Topical Issue debate and it was dealt with by the Minister's colleague, the Minister of State, Deputy Kathleen Lynch. Some additional information came out that up to 500 applications had been made to the Property Registration Authority. It was also indicated that the Minister intended to have a discussion with the Garda Commissioner on this matter. Given the nature and scale of the fraud and deception which has been perpetrated in a very public fashion, I raise this again as a matter of public interest.
As Deputy Collins is aware, this matter was the subject of a Topical Issue debate on 27 November 2013 which was dealt with by the Minister of State, Deputy Kathleen Lynch, in my absence. I should explain first that to address the problem of over-indebtedness, the Government has brought forward significant modernisation of the law, primarily through the enactment of the Personal Insolvency Act 2012 and reform of the Bankruptcy Act 1988. The Personal Insolvency Act established three new debt resolution mechanisms, of which the House is aware, namely, the debt relief notice, the debt settlement arrangement and the personal insolvency arrangement.
On the matter of property trusts, I can confirm that trust law allows for the legal title of land to be held by trustees not for their own benefit but rather for the benefit of the beneficiaries of the trust. The trust mechanism may be used in family situations where, for example, the intended beneficiary is a minor or is otherwise incapable of managing the property. Trusts are also commonly created in the context of wills where the testator may leave property to his or her spouse for life and afterwards to his or her children. The creation of trusts for charitable purposes is also common.
I am aware of only one property trust of the type referred to by the Deputy in his question. This trust has been the subject of significant media attention in recent times. Obviously, I would advise distressed debtors to examine the range of debt relief solutions available through the Insolvency Service of Ireland and to engage with their creditors in resolving their personal situations rather than pursuing unrealistic solutions being proposed by other groups or individuals.
The Property Registration Authority is the State authority which manages and controls the Land Registry and the Registry of Deeds. I am advised by the authority that in recent months more than 500 applications were received in the Land Registry office for registration of notices of certificate of acknowledgement of the living man's claim of right. These appear to be applications to record on a State register the acknowledgement of the living man. The freeman on the land is one of a number of groups, originating in Canada and the US which advance the notion that the legal person and living person are two distinct entities, a particularly interesting concept. The living person is, in that belief system, not bound by law or court rulings unless and until the living person or freeman contracts to accept such law. I am advised that obtaining entry on a State register of the recognition of the living man or freeman on the land is often a first tactical step within these groups.
These applications were all rejected by the Property Registration Authority. I warn the public to be aware of spurious legal constructs which are presented to them by individuals who have an agenda but who do not have the legal expertise to know what they are talking about or the legal qualifications. People should be very aware of not getting caught up in such circumstances.
Additional information not given on the floor of the House
In so far as the Registry of Deeds is concerned, the documents that were presented for registration were not deeds within the meaning of section 32(1) of the Registration of Deeds and Title Act 2006. Therefore, no registration could be made in the office. In so far as the Land Registry is concerned, the registers, which are maintained in that office, must consist of information required to be recorded under the Registration of Deeds and Title Acts 1964 to 2006 and be authorised by the Land Registration Rules 2012. The applications received in these particular cases did not constitute applications for an authorised entry on the folios of the register and were not in a form prescribed by the Land Registration Rules 2012. I am advised by the Property Registration Authority that no applications appear to have been received from any other trust of this nature and staff continue to monitor the situation.
I am not sure whether the Minister is aware that a High Court judge, Mr. Justice Sean Ryan, has described the activities of Charles Allen at Lota More, County Cork, as "unsatisfactory and unsavoury". Mr. Justice Ryan further commented that trust documents could be a front for illegal activity. Has the Minister discussed this situation with the Garda Commissioner, as indicated by the Minister of State, Deputy Kathleen Lynch? Can he comment on the fact that firearms have been found in some of the properties under the control of this trust? I think that discovery underscores and emphasises the concerns raised by Mr. Justice Ryan. Who is responsible for policing and enforcing section 43 of the Consumer Protection Act 2007, which prohibits the use of misleading, false or deceptive information to attract new customers?
I am sure the Deputy will understand and appreciate that it is not appropriate for me to go into the detail of any investigation the Garda Síochána might be conducting. I can tell him the Garda Commissioner is aware of this matter. I hope the Deputy will understand if I do not take it any further. I agree entirely with what Mr. Justice Ryan had to say in court about this particular issue. Unfortunately, vulnerable people who are overwhelmed with debt can be led into believing that someone has invented a new solution to their problems and, in desperation, following a roadmap created by an individual without understanding where that road will lead. As Mr. Justice Ryan has pointed out, there is no legal validity to the presentation being made in this area. I have genuine concerns that this presentation was initially given some credibility. At an early stage, media reports on this matter, without any accompanying warnings, suggested that this was a route people might travel. Those who wrote about these issues did not investigate the matter further. People should be cautious if they are told their difficulties might have a legal solution of which they were previously unaware. Frankly, they should not rely on individuals without qualifications or on what they read in the media. They should take the time to get some advice and assistance. People can readily access a great deal of important information and assistance on the website of the Insolvency Service of Ireland, in particular.
As a said during a previous discussion on this matter, Mr. Allen even paid a visit to this House as part of his search for credibility. He spoke to my colleague, Senator Thomas Byrne, who reported the matter to the Garda and outlined his concerns after questioning Mr. Allen quite thoroughly. Senator Byrne said a mass deception was going ahead. Can the Minister confirm whether a formal Garda investigation into these activities of misrepresentation and deception is taking place? We do not know whether there is. The Minister has said he cannot comment on what the Garda is doing, but surely he can tell us whether a formal investigation is under way. The usual practice with this type of scheme, and with pyramid schemes in general, is that everybody stands back and lets it roll away until it collapses. All the fall-out from that must be dealt with then. It is a matter of trying to catch this as a work in progress, rather than catching it when all of the ill-gotten gains have been bagged and those involved have ridden off into the sunset. Many of the victims of this scam want to remain below the radar and are not prepared to make a formal report. Is a formal Garda investigation into this activity under way?
I hope the Deputy will be satisfied if I say two things. First, I hope this activity is no longer a work in progress. I hope its progress has been halted. Second, I encourage and ask the media outlets that gave such prominence to this activity at an early stage to give much more prominence to the court decision. I am surprised the decision was not given greater prominence because it is a thing of importance. I hope the Deputy will understand that I do not want to say anything that could prejudice the outcome of any Garda engagement in any way.
