Ruth Coppinger
Ceist:5. Deputy Ruth Coppinger asked the Taoiseach further to Parliamentary Question No. 1 of 24 January 2017, when the next meeting of the Cabinet Committee on Justice Reform will take place. [8460/17]
Amharc ar fhreagraTuesday, 28 February 2017
Ceisteanna (5, 6, 7)
Gerry Adams
Ceist:6. Deputy Gerry Adams asked the Taoiseach when the next meeting of the Cabinet Committee on Justice Reform will take place. [9986/17]
Amharc ar fhreagra
Brendan Howlin
Ceist:7. Deputy Brendan Howlin asked the Taoiseach when the Cabinet Committee on Justice Reform will next meet. [10034/17]
Amharc ar fhreagraFreagraí ó Béal (45 píosaí cainte)
I propose to take Questions Nos. 5 to 7, inclusive, together.
The next meeting of the Cabinet committee on justice reform will take place on Tuesday next, 7 March.
As Deputy Coppinger is not here, I call Deputy Ó Caoláin.
That is what the Taoiseach calls sharing information.
I welcome the commencement of the Charleton tribunal and echo Mr. Justice Charleton's appeal for anyone with information to bring it forward to the tribunal.
On Friday last, the chairperson of the Policing Authority, Ms Josephine Feehily, told RTE that the authority has, "a degree of confidence, but we are concerned", in relation to the ability of the Garda Commissioner to carry out her duties for the duration of the Charleton tribunal. That would hardly be a ringing endorsement of the Commissioner. When asked if the authority was concerned about the ability of senior Garda management to fulfil their duties when the tribunal gets under way, Ms Feehily said, "Yes, of course we are." The Policing Authority chairperson also said that the authority had found some deficiencies in the policy of An Garda Síochána on the issue of protected disclosures. The authority's chairperson revealed that the Garda had accepted some, but not all, of its recommendations to deal with this. Is the Taoiseach concerned by the approach of An Garda Síochána to the Policing Authority and to its recommendations? Does the Taoiseach accept - is it not obvious to him and to his colleagues in government and his partners in Fianna Fáil - that there is widespread public acceptance that the Commissioner should step aside, I emphasise without prejudice, while the Charleton tribunal to which her actions are central carries out its investigation?
I am very glad that the disclosures tribunal has been set up and I welcome wholeheartedly the statements made by Mr. Justice Charleton in his opening comments yesterday. He is a first-class choice for this disclosures tribunal, and given his experience over many years in dealing with the Morris tribunal and his position as a Supreme Court judge, I believe he will do a first-class job. It will be complex and difficult, and he set out the parameters of that yesterday, including his reflection on the issues that might come before the tribunal.
It is important to note also that the first element of the disclosures tribunal will deal with the Garda Commissioner. I do not speak for the independent Policing Authority, nor should I, but I note the comment of the chairperson that she had absolute confidence in the Commissioner's ability to do the job in so far as the Garda is concerned. She did express some concern about keeping the accelerator to the floor at the same time as being able to deal with the issues before the tribunal. The Commissioner will respond to that and I have absolute confidence in her to be able to do that. This tribunal is now up and running. The sole member is a person of exceptional competence and I expect he will start hearings in a very short time. The Deputy mentioned-----
Briefly, Taoiseach.
Can I say something about protected disclosures?
These are quite complex. I believe many of these will come in before different Ministers in the time ahead. I know the legislation was drafted by Deputy Howlin but it may be appropriate that the House would consider how it will deal with these in the future. If an array of Ministers get protected disclosures from individuals throughout the country, it may be important to have a structure to deal with protected disclosures. That is an issue the House should examine for the time ahead.
I agree. We are committed to having a review of protected disclosures in any event. We are all getting not formal protected disclosures under the Act but many submissions. I am sure other Deputies in the House are getting them, as I am, from people who have been motivated to tell us something on foot of what has emerged in the Maurice McCabe affair.
Has the justice reform Cabinet sub-committee, of which I have fond memories, had time to consider the agreement of Government that an outside expert be provided, as demanded by the members of the Independent Alliance as their ask in terms of supporting the Government position last week? Who is to deal with that because I understand it is to review issues of culture and ethos? Would the Taoiseach not agree that that runs parallel to the work currently being done by an independent body headed by an international expert, namely, the Garda Inspectorate? It has a very fine body of work, with two reports already published. What we do not want is a series of parallel reviews. The Garda is under enough stress. The Garda Inspectorate has done a sterling job. The issue will be the implementation of its recommendations and having a process to ensure that happens rather than having another cultural and ethos overview by some international expert. I am interested in hearing the Taoiseach's reply.
Regarding the Policing Authority, the Taoiseach will recall that our original plan was to give more authority to the Policing Authority than actually manifested itself in the 2015 Act. Significant additional powers were retained by the Minister that we had envisaged should divest to the Policing Authority. Is that matter being looked at again?
In the first case, what is envisaged here is not a separate parallel entity. There will be an international advertising campaign for somebody to complement and build on the work-----
What a waste of our taxpayers' money. We have done all that.
The Taoiseach, without interruption.
I thank Deputy Burton. That will build on and complement the work of the inspectorate and the Policing Authority. I believe the chairperson referred to that also. That will be an internationally advertised position.
With regard to the Policing Authority, the chairperson referred last week to the extensive powers she already has. The authority can hold the Garda Síochána to account. Senior Garda management report to the authority, including via public meetings which are already under way.
Reporting to but not accountable in this Chamber.
The authority can determine Garda priorities regarding policing services, nominate persons for appointment by the Government to the posts of Garda Commissioner and deputy Garda commissioner, appoint persons to the rank of Garda superintendent, chief superintendent and assistant commissioner and remove them for reasons related to policing services, as Deputy Howlin is well aware, and appoint persons to senior positions within the Garda civilian staff. A great deal of work has gone on already with the Policing Authority.
The Cabinet sub-committee has not had an occasion yet to consider the work that will be done to complement and build on the foundations of the inspectorate and the Policing Authority, but it will at its meeting on 7 March.
I would make the point that my position has always been very clear in terms of commissions of investigation and tribunals. The principle of innocent until proven guilty is an important one that we cannot jettison too easily in the House. It also affects future commissions. For example, we could have a commission of investigation into Project Eagle. Does that mean that the directors or the CEO of NAMA have to stand aside while that is under way? Of course it does not. When the Bill was enacted in 2004, nobody ever envisaged that the mere establishment of a commission of investigation would trigger people standing aside. It is nothing to do with the individual concerned or protecting anybody. It is an important principle that should be acknowledged across the House.
Agreed.
Things are particularly intense at the moment so people will bring up different issues. I accept that there are challenges.
The Policing Authority was established to depoliticise the-----
Appointments.
-----appointments but also the administration of justice and policing, so to a certain extent politicians are contradicting themselves. If there is a call to be made, it should be left to the Policing Authority to determine the issue pertaining to the Commissioner. The Policing Authority has already made a comment, which some Deputies have pointed out is perhaps of a qualified nature in terms of saying it had a degree of confidence but, nonetheless, the authority is keeping a watching brief on that.
Deputy Martin's own comments were qualified too.
They were qualified because there was a deliberate political attempt made to suggest we were protecting somebody, which we are not. Does Deputy Howlin understand? The issue was the principle that one is innocent until found guilty.
Yes.
That is the principle I would have always observed in the conduct of public affairs-----
Absolutely.
-----and particularly in the context of commissions of investigation because what could quickly follow is that when future ones are established, before we even have an investigation, everybody in a position of authority would have to step aside if that precedent is established. That is the point I am making in the calmer environment of this Question Time but I put it to the Taoiseach that it is a point on which we need to reflect.
We are way over time.
Finally, the Garda Inspectorate is that international overview body. I know the members of the Independent Alliance have to find some way out of whatever but we have to give up that kind of politics. It is the idea that they need to have a hook to hang or whatever acquiescence so therefore someone magics up an international review. We have already had that. It is ongoing and it is very good. Some of these reports have been very hard hitting. If only they were acted on with a degree of energy. For God's sake, the Taoiseach should tell the members of the Independent Alliance to back off. Let us not waste more resources on something that is already in position.
We are almost out of time, but if the Taoiseach does not mind, I will call Deputy Burton who indicated that she wants to ask a brief question.
This is a disgraceful waste of taxpayers' money. We are paying for the Policing Authority. It has produced a very detailed report which we had debated in Cabinet. Mr. Olson, who has done many briefings, came in and briefed us.
I have a lot of respect for the Taoiseach but this is a fig leaf to cover the embarrassment of the Minister, Deputy Ross, and his group. Could the Taoiseach not have given him an extra police station in Stepaside? Even Deputy Healy-Rae made a case this morning following the burglaries at the weekend in Kerry and west Cork that perhaps there is a need for a review. This is a total waste. The man who will do the review will be trundling his case somewhere along the quays, checking into a hotel for a number of weeks, and we will be paying for it.
Deputy, please.
What type of indulgence is this?
The Deputy is eating into the time for the next question in which she is involved.
It damages much of the Taoiseach's very good record on good governance.
Thank you, Deputy.
This is just a fig leaf to patch over a political row.
I must ask the Deputy to conclude.
It is a disgrace for the taxpayers.
I wish to point out to the Deputy she is taking up her own time on the next question.
I doubt that.
We are down 12 minutes. I call on the Taoiseach for a very short answer.
That was supposed to be a short comment by Deputy Burton which it was not. The strength of the Garda force will go to 15,000 and this is part and parcel of providing a strong police force which is well-equipped to keep our people safe. I am in full agreement with Deputy Martin on this, on the basis of innocence until proven guilty. The fact of the matter is the Garda Commissioner has not had any charge against her and has not been convicted of anything. Other people who might have stepped aside were the subject of criminal investigations and we know one was exonerated by the DPP, had the charge removed and was then reinstated. This is not the case with the Garda Commissioner. People who say she should just stand aside remove the principle mentioned by Deputy Martin of innocence until proven guilty and it is an important distinction. If one is exonerated by the DPP or a court it is an entirely different matter. Where people are the subject of criminal investigations it places them in a different position to someone who has no charge brought against them.
Very briefly-----
I apologise, but I cannot allow the Deputy in. I am moving on to the next set of questions.