Further and Higher Education

Dáil Éireann Debate, Tuesday - 14 February 2023

Tuesday, 14 February 2023

Ceisteanna (53)

Rose Conway-Walsh

Ceist:

53. Deputy Rose Conway-Walsh asked the Minister for Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science to provide an update on the second stage of the assessment process for increased veterinary provision, including details on the selection criteria, expert panel and ensuring international standards; the number of additional veterinary places that will be delivered and whether this will meet the current needs of the sector; when the first places will be delivered; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [6962/23]

Freagraí ó Béal (6 píosaí cainte)

Deputy Rose Conway-Walsh

Can the Minister provide an update on the second stage of the assessment process for the increased veterinary provision, including details on the selection criteria, the expert panel, ensuring international standards, the number of additional veterinary places that will be delivered, whether this will meet the current needs of the sector and when the first places will be delivered?

Minister for Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science (Deputy Simon Harris)

I thank Deputy Conway-Walsh for the question. As I know the Deputy is aware, the Higher Education Authority, HEA, has now completed the first stage of an expression of interest process for higher education institutions interested in building capacity in dentistry, pharmacy, medicine, nursing, and veterinary medicine. The second stage of this process has now commenced with the recent announcement by the Higher Education Authority of the appointment of an expert advisory panel to review the opportunities for new programmes covered by the process. The panel comprises representatives from Departments and regulatory and professional bodies who have direct professional experience and-or academic expertise in the relevant disciplines, or knowledge of the higher education system at a senior level.

Higher education institutions are, as we all know, autonomous bodies and are responsible for their own day-to-day management and operational affairs, including the management of academic affairs and course provision. The accreditation of courses with the relevant regulatory authorities in Ireland and abroad is a matter for individual institutions in line with this autonomy. EU Directive 2005/36/EC provides for mutual recognition of qualifications of a range of professions, including veterinary surgeons, on the basis of co-ordinated minimum conditions for training. The Veterinary Council of Ireland, VCI, is the competent authority as regulator with a robust accreditation processes to ensure all veterinary training in Ireland meets international standards. Any programmes, and this is important, deemed viable by the HEA will be subject to Veterinary Council of Ireland accreditation processes to validate them and to ensure high standards of veterinary medicine in Ireland through its accreditation. Such accreditation enables professional recognition in Ireland which then further affords access to registration in the UK, Europe and beyond. As the expert panel is currently reviewing the applications, it is not possible to say at this time how many places may be delivered, although I expect to receive their report next month and will be happy to share it with the Deputy then. The Higher Education Authority will consider opportunities for new programme provision alongside options for current programme expansion to develop a final list of options to present to me next month. My Department will then consider these options having regard to workforce plans and projected demand for graduates from relevant line Departments.

In short, specifically in relation to veterinary, there is an expert panel in place. Both the chief veterinary officer and the Veterinary Council of Ireland are represented on it, as is the HEA and others. I may get a chance to go through the criteria in my next response.

Deputy Rose Conway-Walsh

I thank the Minister. On to the figures, 302 qualified vets going on to the VCI register in 2022 shows a continuing rise year-on-year in the demand for vets. Some 70% of new vets entering the register were educated outside Ireland. That shows us the extent of the problem we have. We are agreed on that. We are deeply concerned that the panel lacks an independent expert on veterinary education, who has recent experience as a practising vet, to assess and deliver a new veterinary programme that would be appropriately accredited. It is paramount that the new programme for veterinary medicine is fit for purpose and meets the standards set out by the regulatory bodies such as the Veterinary Council of Ireland, as the Minister said, but also the Royal College of Veterinary Surgeons, RCVS. The Minister has agreed with me on so many occasions that we have to look at the delivery of something like veterinary on an all-island basis. We cannot have an add-on situation. We are at a real crossroads here and we can get this right. There is an onus on us all, and on the Minister, to get it right in terms of what we are going to deliver here.

Deputy Simon Harris

I accept the Deputy's challenge. When I became Minister, the view, not just in my Department but also in the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine, was that we had enough spaces, which I thought was kind of crazy. The only place providing veterinary medicine at the moment is University College Dublin and, as the Deputy quite correctly said, as we have discussed on many occasions before, quite a number of Irish students are studying abroad. By way of example, 208 Irish students are enrolled in a veterinary medicine master's programme in Warsaw and 78 Irish veterinary students are enrolled in Wroclaw University in south-western Poland, and so on. I think 190 students are in Budapest. Slovakia attracts a smaller number, according to a combination of media reports and reports available to my Department. Yet we only have University College Dublin providing the course here. I am not suggesting the Deputy is doing this, but what we really must not do is to suggest it is about one institution over another. What we have here is a horizon scanning exercise. I stand over the expert panel, which includes the chief veterinary officer and the Veterinary Council of Ireland, and its credibility and authority. It will do its work and will report to me in March on what can be done within existing programmes to expand this and on whether new schools can be created. We will see what that menu of options gives us and will take it forward in March.

Deputy Rose Conway-Walsh

Given the level of investment required here, it is vital to get the education quality and the accreditation standards right from the beginning. I am not naming any one in particular, but the institute or the institutes, because there could be collaboration between North and South, tasked with delivering the course must have the capacity to deliver from the get-go. That is the bottom line. They must be able to attract and retain the best quality teaching staff and they must be able to cater for the veterinary needs of the whole island. They must achieve the VCI and the Royal College of Veterinary Surgeons accreditation standards, particularly as a policy change is expected next year by the RCVS to move away from the European standard there. Vet practices operate across the Border. We need to ensure that this continues. The new vet school needs to be capable of meeting those standards. Most important is the scale. We have such a severe shortage of vets here that the initial minimum intake of any course provider must be approximately 80 students with the capacity to expand to 120 in the short term. We should also be looking at developing the graduate entry routes to expand access. I am confident we can get this right if we do it in the way it needs to be done.

Deputy Simon Harris

We will get it right because I would imagine the best people to tell us what is needed in terms of veterinary qualifications are the chief veterinary officer and the Veterinary Council of Ireland and they are on the panel. I would not be so rude or arrogant to suggest that I or indeed other individuals with views on this outside the House know better than they do. I have very clearly outlined in the answer that there is an accreditation process. Even after the HEA process does its work, there is still an accreditation process that has to be gone through in terms of meeting standards. However, let us be honest, and it is important to be. There are different people, although not the Deputy or myself, with different views as to which college or university it should be. I am happy for the expert panel to determine those options. I am happy to have confidence in the Veterinary Council of Ireland and the chief veterinary officer, just as I trust the Chief Medical Officer in medicine or the chief nurse in nursing. That has always been the approach we have taken. It is not my job as Minister in the Department of Further and Higher Education, Innovation, Research and Science to regulate or decide the regulatory professional standard. That is the job of the Veterinary Council of Ireland as the regulatory body. However, we will get it right; I agree with the Deputy on that. We need to be careful. The good news here is that there is a lot of competition, which is a good thing. There is a lot of interest. I am happy for the expert panel to do its work, independent and external of me, report back in March, and then in a very transparent way, stand over the process.